Carlton Supporters Club

Ollie is made of the right stuff, only need 23 more.

There is absolutely nothing to gain from sacking Voss now.

We have to pay him out. We are not making finals. So why do it now?

Its a good time to find out a lot about the players.

For instance, tonight, plenty of players have 'given up'....but some, like Ollie Hollands is going as hard as ever.

Even Charlie has upped his tackling game. In the last 8 weeks, he's managed 6 tackles.
He's already got 5 tonight, with 5 minutes left.

Even though finals may still be a statistical possibility it's a fantasy, and would have a nightmare end should we make it.
Time to play the list...Lemmey's, Camporeales, O'Farrell, give Wilson and Young a few more games.
Not all at once, but over the period.

It'll never be written but the "untold, behind the scenes story" of Carlton's 2025 would be fascinating reading.
I'm convinced there are things going on within the playing/ coaching group that are having dramatic effects on performance.

So it's time for some hard decisions.
But a lot of them are list decisions that can wait a few more weeks.
I'm with Kruds.
This felt a bit like Ratten's last game
But sacking Voss at this stage would only be a 'sacrificial offering' to please the masses.

Even though finals may still be a statistical possibility it's a fantasy, and would have a nightmare end should we make it.
Time to play the list...Lemmey's, Camporeales, O'Farrell, give Wilson and Young a few more games.
Not all at once, but over the period.
If any surgeries are needed  prioritise them and get any major ones out of the way so they are ready for the pre-season.
Rest players with the niggly injuries.

Quote from: Lods – on June 26, 2025, 10:39:23 pm

Even though finals may still be a statistical possibility it's a fantasy, and would have a nightmare end should we make it.
Time to play the list...Lemmey's, Camporeales, O'Farrell, give Wilson and Young a few more games.
Not all at once, but over the period.

It's no good forcing that sort of change on the senior team selection, then claiming results like tonight are the coaches fault.

The hard reality is, most of those names will struggle to play out a single full game let alone two or three in a row, and they'll have little to no AFL impact. I'm not even sure Lemmey could survive a quarter.

I think our new fitness guru is dead-set rubbish, this is the slowest and most physically piss weak we've look for a decade.

I said you don't play them all at once, but at least give them a taste.
There's enough matches left to do that rotating them through.
Give them the exposure.

Get horse in now.

Get wright into his position now. 

dont wait another week.

Put every single player up for trade at seasons end if the right deal is there. We dont need to worry about how that will affect the list as the list is cooked in every way and will never make the grade in the current format

Ive said it countless times massive change needed and it will need to be ruthless in order to have any longterm affect.

all this talk about minor changes and expecting a sizeable change is absolutely fantasy.

Rip the bandaid off now. like others ive lost a lot of interest - stopped my membership
at end of 22. stopped going to any games. and now watch games without enthusiasm expecting nothing.

Then to hear cripps say he is happy with effort. if i wasnt a 40 year plus supporter i would call it quits on this club.

Quote from: shawny – on June 26, 2025, 10:50:09 pm

Get horse in now.

Get wright into his position now. 

dont wait another week.

Put every single player up for trade at seasons end if the right deal is there. We dont need to worry about how that will affect the list as the list is cooked in every way and will never make the grade in the current format

Ive said it countless times massive change needed and it will need to be ruthless in order to have any longterm affect.

all this talk about minor changes and expecting a sizeable change is absolutely fantasy.

Rip the bandaid off now. like others ive lost a lot of interest - stopped my membership
at end of 22. stopped going to any games. and now watch games without enthusiasm expecting nothing.

Then to hear cripps say he is happy with effort. if i wasnt a 40 year plus supporter i would call it quits on this club.

fantasy is expecting lots of changes to yield a good result.

You cant build a team, cohesion and game plan changing everything.  It will leave us in the wilderness for 5 years.  Horse took over from roos.  Continuity of message and brand. We'll hang him in 3 years.

Quote from: Lods – on June 26, 2025, 10:48:11 pm

I said you don't play them all at once, but at least give them a taste.
There's enough matches left to do that rotating them through.
Give them the exposure.

Football 2025 style means a single weak link and you'll concede chains of disposal, you have to be at least competitive on every line just to break even.

Loved Crippa and his interview after the game - I didn’t watch any of the game and won’t which is why I’m not seething with rage 😂

He sounded sick talking.

He seemed to genuinely speaj positively
Of Voss.

Could it be a case of just too many injuries and the side is just so depleted?

How different do the games look with Harry Newman Walsh Smith all Playing? And a fully fit Cripps Doch Cincotta Acres Weiters?

I have always thought our development was poor so we get to the point 10 of our best are injured or playing under duress and we’ve not developed the next lot at all to come in and take some
Of the load.

Don’t know 🤷🏻‍♀️

Unless he quits because he thinks he's lost the players?

As bad as we were, you have to give credit to Port. They were on from the get go.

Just a perfect storm type of game. All our problems and bad qualities come to the fore in one game : bad kicking for goal, injuries, lack of depth, poor field kicking and general disposal, lack of foot speed. You know it's been a bad game when you don't hear any complaints about the umpiring.

We will find out once and for all whether the new Cook/Wright regime is made of the right stuff, or if they are same old same old. If they sack Voss, they have no business complaining about the players being unable or unwilling to handle heat and pressure, because they themselves will be guilty of exactly the same. Time to put on your big boy pants gents, and stop bailing out at the first sign of trouble

I agree but it will take a miracle for them not to act. It’s not the first sign of trouble IMO.

It's probably the insipid way we lost.
I'm not sure anybody expected that.

Same Iaj.
I don't want to sack another coach but I don't see how Voss can survive.
And we have zero draft picks and the tigers expect to steal Cody.
We're looking at another 15 of crap.

Interestingly from Nick Haynes - not just the usual it’s on us but a step further to say vfl time…. Maybe he’s a leader…?

The veteran defender believes it’s up to the players – himself included – to execute Voss’ gameplan better and for longer. And if they can’t, then a stint in the VFL might help ram the message home.

We chose this path.
We removed senior players and brought in kids, keep in mind Voss wanted Dan Houston.
How were we going to be stronger in 2025 than we were in 2024?

We chose this path.
We removed senior players and brought in kids, keep in mind Voss wanted Dan Houston.
How were we going to be stronger in 2025 than we were in 2024?

The media campaigned for Ratten, Malthouse, Bolton and Teague to be sacked then after we obliged they canned us for treating them poorly.

This is smelling of Rattens demise and I’m not on board for it. I thought at the time getting rid of Ratten was the wrong move and we know what happened after that.

Haven't heard any valid reasons to keep Voss, he was a speculative choice who failed at his first coaching attempt and has had nine years senior coaching as a sample size.
I have seen enough and I'd be changing
more than the just the coach too, we are uncompetitive and embarrassing.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on June 27, 2025, 10:15:10 am

Haven't heard any valid reasons to keep Voss, he was a speculative choice who failed at his first coaching attempt and has had nine years senior coaching as a sample size.
I have seen enough and I'd be changing
more than the just the coach too, we are uncompetitive and embarrassing.

The media are pumping up Adam Simpson. Do you remember what they did to him despite having the worst injury list in history?

This business about "the modern game" seems to be the hottest ticket in town. I'd be curious to know what it actually is.

We arent good enough so the reason we arent good enough isnt because we arent good enough, some external factor is imposing an artifical restraint to make us look bad.

Remove the restraint, and all will be rosy.

Same old Carlton arrogance thinking we are or entitled to be, better than we are.

Thing is, its sometimes as simple as, we are not going well (theres enough evidence there to say we arent in good condition) and rather than accepting that, we need to "fix it" because old Carlton knew how to fix things, and in our hubris, we can fix it.

Thing is, game plans are game plans.  There are finite things you can do in tactics.  Everything old will become new again, and right now, the run and gun game style is "modern footy" with scores off intercept and rebound currently being the way to hit the opponent.

Who played like that?  Ratten.

We dont play like this, because our squads outside game is significantly hindered by players being broken down.  All our creative and running types are well down on their best so we have to stick with what our strength is, and try and generate scores that way, because we dont have another mode we can go to.

Quote from: madbluboy – on June 27, 2025, 10:18:35 am

The media are pumping up Adam Simpson. Do you remember what they did to him despite having the worst injury list in history?

I wouldn't be going back and recycling old coaches like Simpson and Longmire.
I'd be be looking at Enright or similar and getting a younger more innovative coach who can get us into the modern era plus a new recruiting team and football boss.

Quote from: PaulP – on June 27, 2025, 10:27:36 am

This business about "the modern game" seems to be the hottest ticket in town. I'd be curious to know what it actually is.

We dont play like this, because our squads outside game is significantly hindered by players being broken down.  All our creative and running types are well down on their best so we have to stick with what our strength is, and try and generate scores that way, because we dont have another mode we can go to.

Quote from: Thryleon – on June 27, 2025, 10:30:26 am

We dont play like this, because our squads outside game is significantly hindered by players being broken down.  All our creative and running types are well down on their best so we have to stick with what our strength is, and try and generate scores that way, because we dont have another mode we can go to.

We lost to Richmond in Round 1 with close to full list.  

Quote from: shawny – on June 27, 2025, 10:42:37 am

We lost to Richmond in Round 1 with close to full list.  

You have said this a couple of times, but our list isnt close to being in good condition, and I debate how close to full it was, given the team that fielded that day didnt include a two time coleman medallist, and had 2 new players that hadnt played for the club before.  That doesnt sound like full strength to me.

@shawny

I think the drop off is temporary and a product of a list that isnt in good condition. 

You seem to think its at optimum capacity to perform and not performing to that potential. 

There is the variance, its not about condeding or arguing who is right or wrong, but saying it was at full strength is a massive stretch.  Cripps alone is playing within 50% of his top form of last season.  Is he rubbish now?  Or is he simply having an off year?

Quote from: shawny – on June 27, 2025, 10:41:01 am

The thing is EB our list should be at the point where we are putting finishes touches to it and so a proven finals coach like Longmire along with his own selected line coaches/assistants would IMO be the best way to give this current group any chance of success.

Think an untried coach is an option if its determined this list is shot and need to start a new fresh build.

Personally the list and in particular many of our 'best' players are overrated and as Buckley said the level of performance from our A graders drops off way too much when having an average day and this is just how it is hence why i rate them not as A graders and overrated (reckon we only have 2 real A graders in Cripps and Weitering and thats it).

And as we are not exactly blessed with under 25 talent, either new coach option is still going to be tricky and based on our previous records with this stuff its hard to be positive anymore about anything our once great club does.  Having said that one option has to occur as 4 years is enough with this group to confirm Voss is not the man and should never have been appointed over Kingsley. 

Quote from: shawny – on June 27, 2025, 10:41:01 am

The thing is EB our list should be at the point where we are putting finishes touches to it and so a proven finals coach like Longmire along with his own selected line coaches/assistants would IMO be the best way to give this current group any chance of success.

Think an untried coach is an option if its determined this list is shot and need to start a new fresh build.

Personally the list and in particular many of our 'best' players are overrated and as Buckley said the level of performance from our A graders drops off way too much when having an average day and this is just how it is hence why i rate them not as A graders and overrated (reckon we only have 2 real A graders in Cripps and Weitering and thats it).

And as we are not exactly blessed with under 25 talent, either new coach option is still going to be tricky and based on our previous records with this stuff its hard to be positive anymore about anything our once great club does.  Having said that one option has to occur as 4 years is enough with this group to confirm Voss is not the man and should never have been appointed over Kingsley. 

  The list is over hyped, it's slow, full of poor kicking players and reliant on too few having to play blinders every game for us to win. A disinterested TDK and a sick Cripps meant we were doomed last night...the gap between our best players and the rest is like the Grand Canyon.
Players like Cerra who are meant to be bridging that gap don't....

We were never going to win, not sure what the hysteria is about.

This was on the cards

Of our leadership group.   Cripps has been out of form since he landed on his back in R3.   Weiters has been struggling for weeks.  Injured the last 2.   Curnow is a combo of injury and lack of form.   Walsh is a shadow of his former self and hasn't been able to gain fitness after an interrupted pre-season.   That's your best four players at well below capacity.

The chicken came home to roost last night.

The media campaigned for Ratten, Malthouse, Bolton and Teague to be sacked then after we obliged they canned us for treating them poorly.

So it's Pat Kinnersley fault.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on June 27, 2025, 11:12:59 am

  The list is over hyped, it's slow, full of poor kicking players and reliant on too few having to play blinders every game for us to win. A disinterested TDK and a sick Cripps meant we were doomed last night...the gap between our best players and the rest is like the Grand Canyon.
Players like Cerra who are meant to be bridging that gap don't....

Yes agree EB.

And mentally they are not up to it. The minute pressure comes on any level they melt.

Its the same reason we manage to score when the game is done. 

I posted it a week or 2 ago, but it warrants repeating.

Cripps is having an absolutely terrible year. He (or the club) is too stubborn to put him on the sidelines to recover.
Possession wise, its his worst year apart from the shortened covid/quarantine year, and his debut year when he played 3 games.

Last night was a perfect example of our issues. He was too sick that he had to be quarantined from the playing list....but was good enough to play the most physically demanding game in the world. Yeah, nah.

.....and you could make a case for about 5 others, all top end talent, that fall into that category.

Now, i understand the want to play these guys. However, you simply need to look at the result in the last 2 weeks to realise that there is no benefit to doing so. Only downsides.

Rest Cripps, rest Charlie, rest Weiters, rest Saad, rest Acres......
What is going to happen? We end up losing by 50 points? Well that is happening anyway. At least we have a reason - we played a bunch of kids.
Last night, we played our oldest side for 81 years!
Let that sink in.
No Carlton team that has run out in the last 81 years and been as old as that mob last night.

What did we get from it? A bunch of old, unfit, sick, injured blokes putting in half-ar$ed efforts.
Play the kids.
I don't expect them to do much better, but at least there is a double benefit to doing so. You rest the blokes who need to recover and you give some kids a shot at the big time who may actually suprise.

For this week...
Lemmey - Curnow
HOF - Weiters
Lucas - Acres
Ben - Cripps
Carroll - Saad

I don't know why folks are still banging on about the 'Old Carlton' way of sacking coaches. The club hasn't sacked Vossy, and don't look like doing it any time soon. We have not seen a knee jerk reaction. So we can put away that gripe, it's the past. 

I don't know why folks are still banging on about the 'Old Carlton' way of sacking coaches. The club hasn't sacked Vossy, and don't look like doing it any time soon. We have not seen a knee jerk reaction. So we can put away that gripe, it's the past. 

Quote from: Baggers – on June 27, 2025, 05:41:55 pm

I don't know why folks are still banging on about the 'Old Carlton' way of sacking coaches. The club hasn't sacked Vossy, and don't look like doing it any time soon. We have not seen a knee jerk reaction. So we can put away that gripe, it's the past. 

You've been around long enough to know that THIS is how it starts.
Plenty of supporters (some on here) are calling for exactly that.

On fox footy before the game, they were talking about the pressure Vossy is under and how the club reacts to that - ie sack the coach.
The media are running with it. Supporters are calling for it.
Just need the swell to build a bit more and bang, same old same old.

Quote from: Baggers – on June 27, 2025, 05:41:55 pm

I don't know why folks are still banging on about the 'Old Carlton' way of sacking coaches. The club hasn't sacked Vossy, and don't look like doing it any time soon. We have not seen a knee jerk reaction. So we can put away that gripe, it's the past. 

Hold my beer!
Baggers I have lost all confidence in the entire club. Whilst nothing has happened, I cant help but feel the writing is on the wall. The entire club is FOS and I trust a word anyone says anymore. They need to regain my trust (especially the players) as it has completely broken and it will take a very long time to win it back. So I am gonna be very cynical, angry and negative for a very long time so ban mods ban me now if it's not gonna be to your liking. I have had a gutful.

Quote from: kruddler – on June 27, 2025, 05:45:16 pm

You've been around long enough to know that THIS is how it starts.
Plenty of supporters (some on here) are calling for exactly that.

On fox footy before the game, they were talking about the pressure Vossy is under and how the club reacts to that - ie sack the coach.
The media are running with it. Supporters are calling for it.
Just need the swell to build a bit more and bang, same old same old.

I am very confident this version of the CFC is not dancing to the media tune. Taken literally, 'under pressure' does not equate to calling for a sacking. But some will interpret it that way and make a noise. They're the loud 'quick fix' brigade and deserve ignoring. Along with the boneheads who vandalized PP.

Bottom line is that Vossy and co. still have time to turn things around. We hope he does. But optimism is slim.

Although not all his fault, this does not bode well:
FACT: Michael Voss has coached 194 games for 88 wins, 104 losses, and two draws. His 45.88% win percentage is the second-worst among active coaches who have coached at least 40 games.
I didn't actually realise his he's record was that bad.

Although not all his fault, this does not bode well:
FACT: Michael Voss has coached 194 games for 88 wins, 104 losses, and two draws. His 45.88% win percentage is the second-worst among active coaches who have coached at least 40 games.
I didn't actually realise his he's record was that bad.

Although not all his fault, this does not bode well:
FACT: Michael Voss has coached 194 games for 88 wins, 104 losses, and two draws. His 45.88% win percentage is the second-worst among active coaches who have coached at least 40 games.
I didn't actually realise his he's record was that bad.

While the board might rubber stamp it, any decision regarding the coach will probably be made at the Cook/Wright level.
The way it sounds is that Wright is moving around the club talking to a lot of people including players.
Cook has a reputation of not pulling the plug on coaches...but would be all over the goings on at the club

Both would be aware of any issues or rifts.
I'm pretty confident that any decision they make will be what they regard as the best one for the club.

Quote from: Baggers – on June 27, 2025, 05:49:20 pm

I am very confident this version of the CFC is not dancing to the media tune. Taken literally, 'under pressure' does not equate to calling for a sacking. But some will interpret it that way and make a noise. They're the loud 'quick fix' brigade and deserve ignoring. Along with the boneheads who vandalized PP.

Bottom line is that Vossy and co. still have time to turn things around. We hope he does. But optimism is slim.

Vossy and the boos were booed off the ground last week.
Quite possibly again last night.
If that happens every week, you think the club will have balls enough to stick fat with him?
I'm not so confident.

I really don't have anything to add to what has already been said.
There's a number of reasons why we have gone so pair shaped, it's not a simple fix.
Whoever can fix this mess deserves the keys to the city and a bronze statue outside PP.

@kruddler continuing on that average age chat, was just doing some various mental gymnastics about sides and average ages.

It could be right, but I think its being over stated somewhat.

Off thr top of my head our oldest players today would have been cripps, docherty, Williams, saad, haynes, McGovern.   Acres probably a smidgeon behind them.  The rest are all under that age or thereabouts. 

So it may very well be thr oldest average, but we dont exactly have a cliff coming where the rest of the side is in dire straights.

Quote from: pertz – on June 27, 2025, 06:01:07 pm

Although not all his fault, this does not bode well:
FACT: Michael Voss has coached 194 games for 88 wins, 104 losses, and two draws. His 45.88% win percentage is the second-worst among active coaches who have coached at least 40 games.
I didn't actually realise his he's record was that bad.

Does that include his time at Brisbane.
I'd think his Carlton record is much better than that.
(Edit- Thanks Kruds)

Quote from: Thryleon – on June 26, 2025, 10:45:04 pm

@kruddler continuing on that average age chat, was just doing some various mental gymnastics about sides and average ages.

It could be right, but I think its being over stated somewhat.

Off thr top of my head our oldest players today would have been cripps, docherty, Williams, saad, haynes, McGovern.   Acres probably a smidgeon behind them.  The rest are all under that age or thereabouts. 

So it may very well be thr oldest average, but we dont exactly have a cliff coming where the rest of the side is in dire straights.

@Thryleon
A better breakdown of current ages
30+:
6 - Cripps, McGovern, Williams, Saad, Docherty, Haynes
Missing 1 - Newman
27-29:
7 - Silvagni, Weitering, Curnow, Cincotta, Hewett, Acres, Fantasia -
Missing 2 - Pittonet, McKay
25-26:
5 - Boyd, L. Young, Fogarty, Cerra, De Koning
Missing 2 - Cottrell, Walsh*** turns 25 next week

Thats 18 players....
From the rest who played....

23: 1 - FYoung.
21: 2 - Motlop, O. Hollands
20: 2 - Lord, Wilson

Don't know what considers a 'cliff', but you'd expect better from that group if they were fit.

Biggest issue with that list is the younger age brackets.
eg 25-26 has 5 players.
TDK will walk.
L. Young and Boyd are not considered best 22, Fogarty might be, but only just.
Cerra only managed 17 touches last night and thats not good enough.
 

Quote from: Lods – on June 27, 2025, 06:04:57 pm

Does that include his time at Brisbane.
I'd think his Carlton record is much better than that.
(Edit- Thanks Kruds)

He's the best coach we have had in a very long time. The smart arses here will say that's not hard but give him better players and watch the change.

Quote from: Gointocarlton – on June 27, 2025, 07:13:03 pm

He's the best coach we have had in a very long time. The smart arses here will say that's not hard but give him better players and watch the change.

Our club is a coach killer. We need to analyse the cause of this and address it before we look at getting any more lambs in for the slaughter. I’m sick of it and embarrassed.

Quote from: pertz – on June 27, 2025, 06:08:33 pm

I really don't have anything to add to what has already been said.
There's a number of reasons why we have gone so pair shaped, it's not a simple fix.
Whoever can fix this mess deserves the keys to the city and a bronze statue outside PP.

If you know any good exorcists, now might be a good time to get in touch.

Quote from: Lods – on June 27, 2025, 06:04:57 pm

Does that include his time at Brisbane.
I'd think his Carlton record is much better than that.
(Edit- Thanks Kruds)

He's the best coach we have had in a very long time. The smart arses here will say that's not hard but give him better players and watch the change.

:))  :))  :)) see, you're an optimist just like this sucker little black duck.

Okay, let's get our recruiting team to locate some Catholic priests, Orthodox Greek, Russian and Jewish priests, hec, throw in a Sharman or two, coupla Buddhist monks... mmm, maybe not our recruiting team ::)

Quote from: Baggers – on June 27, 2025, 07:33:12 pm

:))  :))  :)) see, you're an optimist just like this sucker little black duck.

Okay, let's get our recruiting team to locate some Catholic priests, Orthodox Greek, Russian and Jewish priests, hec, throw in a Sharman or two, coupla Buddhist monks... mmm, maybe not our recruiting team ::)

We all get the s h i t s and get disillusioned from time to time, but in the long term being optimistic and hopeful is the only way IMO.

Baggers, a couple of my own thoughts in relation to this :

- I'd suggest like all senior coaches, Voss' apprenticeship started as a player, and progressed from there : Robert Walls, then Leigh Matthews, then Worsfold for a couple of years, then Hinkley. It's not a bad group. Voss has been quite open about his close and excellent relationship with Mathews, and the influence on his career as a player and coach
- Also worth comparing his win/loss at Brisbane and Carlton, it shows the capacity to grow, improve and learn from one's mistakes, unlike Ratts for example.
- I would suggest that another sacking is not just about perception and bad optics, but rather, is a root cause of the limited success we've experienced in the last 20 years.

@cookie2

We are coach killers because we are impatient. 

I cant think of a club thats had as many coaches as we have in such a short period.  Going back to 99.

Parkin
Britain
Pagan
Ratten
Malthouse
Barker
Bolton
Teague
Voss
Hansen *1 game covering voss absence.

10 senior coaches in 25 years.  An average of 2.5 years each.  This is worse, when you consider it's been 4 years of voss, it was 4 years of Bolton and 5 years of Ratten.

Some have churned through a few, but there's a theme.  Who's another basket case for most of this century?

Melbourne.  They've had 7 senior coaches.  Who else?  Freo?  4.

Who else?  Essendon and the saints equal our record.

There's a theme there.  Crap clubs, lots of off field controversy and instability (financial penalties too) and a complete and utter failure to achieve anything since the year 2000 with st.kilda getting an asterisk for a brief period of being a bridesmaid, but more often than not, these clubs miss finals.

Quote from: Thryleon – on June 27, 2025, 07:39:08 pm

@cookie2

We are coach killers because we are impatient. 

I cant think of a club thats had as many coaches as we have in such a short period.  Going back to 99.

Parkin
Britain
Pagan
Ratten
Malthouse
Barker
Bolton
Teague
Voss
Hansen *1 game covering voss absence.

10 senior coaches in 25 years.  An average of 2.5 years each.  This is worse, when you consider it's been 4 years of voss, it was 4 years of Bolton and 5 years of Ratten.

Some have churned through a few, but there's a theme.  Who's another basket case for most of this century?

Melbourne.  They've had 7 senior coaches.  Who else?  Freo?  4.

Who else?  Essendon and the saints equal our record.

There's a theme there.  Crap clubs, lots of off field controversy and instability (financial penalties too) and a complete and utter failure to achieve anything since the year 2000 with st.kilda getting an asterisk for a brief period of being a bridesmaid, but more often than not, these clubs miss finals.

Maybe we just keep picking the wrong ones.  If its just the club that is the issue im guessing a lot of the young coaches in that group went on to success.

Not one did. 

We had a choice of Kingsley, McRae and Voss. We picked the biggest name in the pack despite his previous record being average at best.

Word was Pies had Voss ranked last in the process.

The rest is history
  

Quote from: shawny – on June 28, 2025, 11:31:04 am

Maybe we just keep picking the wrong ones.  If its just the club that is the issue im guessing a lot of the young coaches in that group went on to success.

Not one did. 

We had a choice of Kingsley, McRae and Voss. We picked the biggest name in the pack despite his previous record being average at best.

Word was Pies had Voss ranked last in the process.

The rest is history
  

so you're saying the guys who are correct in sacking coaches cant hire the right one or keep choosing the wrong one?

Maybe the blokes making those decisions should get sacked instead.

The senior players sacked the last coach led by the Captain....the club had no choice but to move Teague on.

Quote from: Thryleon – on June 28, 2025, 01:37:24 pm

so you're saying the guys who are correct in sacking coaches cant hire the right one or keep choosing the wrong one?

Maybe the blokes making those decisions should get sacked instead.

The senior players sacked the last coach led by the Captain....the club had no choice but to move Teague on.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on June 28, 2025, 01:45:38 pm

The senior players sacked the last coach led by the Captain....the club had no choice but to move Teague on.

Senior players as in who?

@cookie2

We are coach killers because we are impatient. 

Quote from: Thryleon – on June 27, 2025, 07:39:08 pm

@cookie2

We are coach killers because we are impatient. 

You're right, IMHO, 3 Leos.

And if you sack someone through impatience, you're more than likely to apply that impatience to his/her replacement.

Fortunately, we have a new CEO is known for consideration and due diligence. Fingers crossed that the mould of important decisions hastily made, are over.

Quote from: shawny – on June 28, 2025, 11:31:04 am

Maybe we just keep picking the wrong ones.  If its just the club that is the issue im guessing a lot of the young coaches in that group went on to success.

Not one did. 

We had a choice of Kingsley, McRae and Voss. We picked the biggest name in the pack despite his previous record being average at best.

Word was Pies had Voss ranked last in the process.

The rest is history
  

so you're saying the guys who are correct in sacking coaches cant hire the right one or keep choosing the wrong one?

Maybe the blokes making those decisions should get sacked instead.

Quote from: Thryleon – on June 28, 2025, 01:37:24 pm

so you're saying the guys who are correct in sacking coaches cant hire the right one or keep choosing the wrong one?

Maybe the blokes making those decisions should get sacked instead.

Just because we have sacked a lot of coaches doesnt have any bearing imo on the current situation. Every decision has to be on merit and Voss is not the man and never was.

An amazing footballer doesnt make a good coach.

We have no system still cant deliver the ball into F50 have no plan B.

Our list is lacking pieces on all lines but from a strategic perspective our coaching group led by Voss is below par and not anywhere near what the better teams have. We need a coach as well as a coaching group that will get the very best out of every player and provide systems when we get injuries the whole list knows the system and knows they role to play. We lose a few players and become a rabble.

4 years is enough time.

Quote from: shawny – on June 28, 2025, 07:27:05 pm

Just because we have sacked a lot of coaches doesnt have any bearing imo on the current situation. Every decision has to be on merit and Voss is not the man and never was.

An amazing footballer doesnt make a good coach.

We have no system still cant deliver the ball into F50 have no plan B.

Our list is lacking pieces on all lines but from a strategic perspective our coaching group led by Voss is below par and not anywhere near what the better teams have. We need a coach as well as a coaching group that will get the very best out of every player and provide systems when we get injuries the whole list knows the system and knows they role to play. We lose a few players and become a rabble.

4 years is enough time.

You keep bringing up how we've been poor for 30+ years.

Yet now the other sacked coaches don't matter.

Either you bring history into it or you don't. Can't have it both ways.

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."

Quote from: kruddler – on June 28, 2025, 07:29:25 pm

You keep bringing up how we've been poor for 30+ years.

Yet now the other sacked coaches don't matter.

Either you bring history into it or you don't. Can't have it both ways.

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."

Historically we have been crap for 3 decades and thats a fact - what is debatable is whether sacking coaches was a reason behind those results. i dont think it was but more so who we selected as to the pivotal failure was imo.

I said from day one i wasnt a fan of Voss and he was the wrong choice out of the candidates available and thats where the mistake was made not what the previous failed coaches did or didnt do nor our history in failed coaches.

Time to rip the bandaid off and hopefully this time we find the right man for the job.

After 9 or 10 separate attempts, the “wrong bloke” ship has well and truly sailed. Are people seriously believing that if McRae was our coach we would be sitting 13-2 on the ladder?

After 9 or 10 separate attempts, the “wrong bloke” ship has well and truly sailed. Are people seriously believing that if McRae was our coach we would be sitting 13-2 on the ladder?

Quote from: PaulP – on June 28, 2025, 10:41:32 pm

After 9 or 10 separate attempts, the “wrong bloke” ship has well and truly sailed. Are people seriously believing that if McRae was our coach we would be sitting 13-2 on the ladder?

its really hard to mount any argument to the contrary but IMHO, with fly at our club and vossy st their club, my suspicion is that things would be largely the same.

That is the unknowable, Pauly, and such an assumption would be illogical to the extreme. But what we do know is that under Fly in this hypothetical, we would have had a different game plan and a different kind of leadership, and from there... who knows.

Quote from: Baggers – on June 29, 2025, 08:43:38 am

That is the unknowable, Pauly, and such an assumption would be illogical to the extreme. But what we do know is that under Fly in this hypothetical, we would have had a different game plan and a different kind of leadership, and from there... who knows.

I disagree Baggers. In a complex system like a football club, one person cannot make that much of a difference. We’ve seen this often enough. There is an interplay between the individual and the group/ organisation.  They affect and transform each other to varying degrees. I’m not suggesting in any way that a coach makes no difference, but the balance of power is very much with the organisation, and the organisation shapes the individual a lot more than the other way round.

I should also add that I don’t believe our culture is c r a p. I think we’ve built some good foundations in the last few years, but there are clearly some pieces of the puzzle that are missing.

McRae got the Collingwood job because Wright had a fixed idea on how they wanted to play and that was the Richmond gameplan. They wanted a Hardwick pupil who could execute and had tactical nous because thats what that gamestyle requires.
Kingsley was the second choice because again he was a Hardwick pupil, McRae wasnt a popular choice with many Pies fans being an unknown rookie coach and there was a bit of pushback on his appointment but clearly Wright knew what he wanted.

According to Mitch Cleary from CH7 , Voss was appointed on the basis he was a standard setter, an authoritarian figure with a high level of respect in the football community because of his playing history and a coach who players would listen to unlike the previous incumbent Teague who lost the senior players. Luke Sayers said publicly that we had the list and Voss was the man to unlock its potential, so he wasnt there to build the list but to win premierships.
Sayers said“Michael demonstrated a strong understanding of the key fundamental requirements for Carlton right now: inspirational and accountable leadership, driver of a united and ambitious culture, builder of trusting and collaborative relationships and a deep and genuine desire to deliver strong on-field performance". Those comments imo related to the weak areas of Teagues short reign as coach where he was strong with innovation and tactically but couldnt manage the playing group and bond with certain players and had pushback in the gamestyle he was trying to implement.
Cleary also said that Voss wasnt expected to deliver any technical/tactical nous not being his forte and that the club would employ assistants to provide in that area ie Hansen, Hamill, Clarke etc.
Voss said his focus would be fixing our contest/stoppage and defensive areas which to be fair he has achieved but probably at the expense of our offensive game.
4 days ago Voss has defended Carlton's contested-based style, saying it still stacked up against the competition's pacesetters. "It's a pretty impressive brand to watch," he said. "It's hard to talk down being the No.1 contested team in competition ...
I think thats being a bit delusional, kicking the ball backwards, sideways and bombing it in long is not pretty to watch and not what the better teams are playing imho.

My view is I dont see any comparison between Voss and McRae valid as they operate at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of gamestyle and Mcrae in particular had an opportunity to have input into his list where he has used the topup method unlike Voss who got given a rebuilt list with high expectations attached, so different coaches with different lists.
Im highly critical of Voss and his lack of tactical ability but after hearing what Cleary said I think a lot of the blame has to fall on Hansen and the other Assistants.
I see Voss as a Chris Fagan style coach who is more of a Man Manager but needs the right crew around him unlike say McRae who is prepared to shuffle the magnets at any point in the game and take the blame if it all goes astray rather than blame the players if they dont play their role etc.
McRae also has the advantage of a great leadership group and is spoilt for choice with so many mature players unlike Voss who when we all tried to pick a new captain in the "next captain thread" struggled to find many names who qualified as leaders.

If we retain Voss then imo all the Football manager, Coaching Assistants and Recruiters have to go and start afresh especially with Assistants who can help modify the gamestyle and move the magnets better on matchday.
If he is sacked I dont have a problem either and dont subscribe to the theory all our problems are based on our history of sacking coaches....if you look at Brittan, Ratten, Bolton and Teague what have they done senior coaching wise since they were sacked....answer..Nothing. What have we missed out on....Nada.
Fagan has had 8 years at Brisbane making finals in the last six so its a bit of the Geelong operating theory where if you play the odds you have to win a GF eventually if you keep making the eight.
Its a Difficult position for Wright and the board to evaluate Voss given he has achieved some objectives but failed to progress from the last couple of years unlike say Fagan who kept Brisbane in the premiership frame on a continuous basis and as we all know these decisions usually get made sooner than later depending on the availability of coaching options so I dont see the remaining games having much influence.

Ratts went ok getting the Saints into the finals but coaching them is no different to coaching us, especially culture-wise and they eventually got him. Saints gave him a new contract then took that away a month later to get Lyon, who has done bugger all. They are as bad a club to coach as us. Ratts got to coach the two worst possible side culture-wise. Could have done alot worse performance-wise.

The Dominator certainly didn't mince words about our effort. Fair to say he was disgusted and said it was so unfair our supporters.

Quote from: laj – on June 29, 2025, 07:20:35 pm

The Dominator certainly didn't mince words about our effort. Fair to say he was disgusted and said it was so unfair our supporters.

Put it very much on the players.

Quote from: laj – on June 29, 2025, 07:20:35 pm

The Dominator certainly didn't mince words about our effort. Fair to say he was disgusted and said it was so unfair our supporters.

Put it very much on the players.

I think the only thing you can say for sure is that with a different coach, things would be different,
Not necessarily better, not necessarily worse...(some would argue it couldn't be worse)
But different.
A classic example of that was when we made the change from Bolton to Teague.
Players went to different positions.
They were given different roles.
Paddy Dow's possessions went from high teen/ low 20s to single figures.

Quote from: Lods – on June 29, 2025, 02:29:49 pm

I think the only thing you can say for sure is that with a different coach, things would be different,
Not necessarily better, not necessarily worse...(some would argue it couldn't be worse)
But different.
A classic example of that was when we made the change from Bolton to Teague.
Players went to different positions.
They were given different roles.
Paddy Dow's possessions went from high teen/ low 20s to single figures.

Only good thing with a new coach is we generally produce our best in their first year when enthusiasm is high. So best have everything in order. Voss, like Ratts, managed to keep it going a bit longer, even if it looked the typical falling away in the first 14 rounds of 2023 before the change at Ed's place.

The Dominator certainly didn't mince words about our effort. Fair to say he was disgusted and said it was so unfair our supporters.

Quote from: laj – on June 30, 2025, 02:59:33 pm

Only good thing with a new coach is we generally produce our best in their first year when enthusiasm is high. So best have everything in order. Voss, like Ratts, managed to keep it going a bit longer, even if it looked the typical falling away in the first 14 rounds of 2023 before the change at Ed's place.

So sack and hire a new one every year yeah?