We're broken and battered and devoid of confidence. It's going to be a long back half of the season.
Just fark the blokes who dont want to be there or put in off and get blokes in that do. De Koning is taking the piss, Charlie is no better, Cerra was deplorable; Acres I swear went home for a bit, Doc was a liability, Gov is clueless. There's a pattern.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: pinot on July 04, 2025, 10:18:05 pm
We're broken and battered and devoid of confidence. It's going to be a long back half of the season.
Players dont trust the system and its obvious
Dude, what do you watch? Do you not see the poor decision making and poor kicks? Serious question mate. We get it in more than anyone, we are rubbish at it. Turn off Channel Stupid and watch Fox and listen to the smart people.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LoveNavy on July 04, 2025, 10:20:51 pm
I have no words. No emotions. Not a single idea about how we move forward and ultimately upwards, ladder wise. If that’s how a long-term passionate member is travelling, I can't imagine how difficult this must be for players. Especially the youngsters.
Time to rethink my long held loyalties and $$ to this club. No auto membership renewal from me this year.
Take care Baggers. Hopefully you'll find joy in another aspect of life this weekend.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Micky0 on July 04, 2025, 10:31:17 pm
Strangely I feel a LOT more clear and direct on my thoughts.
TDK is not playing with the same… shall we say, gusto, as previously. He is off - fine, play him in VFL or not at all - I care not. You can tell he’s absolute checked out. Fine, seeya 👋🏼
Charlie - I have always felt that maybe he hasn’t given his all, too much frivolity with the opposition. I am ALL for personality. But today - of all days - he has shown exactly who he is. Seeya later thanks for the final 0.3 Or 0.4. It is cherished 🙄 can I remind everyone all those scores were under ZERO pressure. Disgrace. Whatever he may or may not feel of the coach this is a fk you to the supporter base.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 04, 2025, 10:46:38 pm
Best Presser Ive seen from Vossy.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: pinot on July 04, 2025, 10:55:46 pm
Everything Vossy is saying there is a famous saying - "words are cheap" this squad is not drilled to be a finals team.
End.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 04, 2025, 10:56:53 pm
As the Fox boys said, we are a horrible kicking side.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on July 04, 2025, 10:59:12 pm
One thing he said that was a bit off script at the end of one of his answer was that we need to "support families". Not sure what is going on there but he delivered it with an extra bit of seriousness, perhaps emotion. I'll need to have another look.
On the game...it's pretty simple. A well drilled 'team', with a clear understanding of their roles and a relationship with the players around them vs A team of individuals with little connection and understanding, and a bit of self preservation about their play. A timid group who lack real physicality and aggression, which is a bit strange given that was a feature of their game two years ago.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: JonDorotich on July 04, 2025, 11:03:40 pm
Dekoning complete lack of effort - unforgiveable McGovern, Docherty and Acres decision making and composure simply awful Pittonet, Fantasia, Hollands, Motlop, Evans, Fogarty VFL cannon fodder at best. Harry O’Farrell a bit too green Cerra no impact
Curnow badly down on form and confidence but looked like he was trying
Cowan and Moir were the only positives for me
Game plan is awful but let’s face it, even if we had Collingwoods game plan, we couldn’t execute it.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Professer E on July 04, 2025, 11:06:32 pm
I reckon Cowan fought on and was pretty tough in the clinches
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 04, 2025, 11:11:51 pm
One thing he said that was a bit off script at the end of one of his answer was that we need to "support families". Not sure what is going on there but he delivered it with an extra bit of seriousness, perhaps emotion. I'll need to have another look.
On the game...it's pretty simple. A well drilled 'team', with a clear understanding of their roles and a relationship with the players around them vs A team of individuals with little connection and understanding, and a bit of self preservation about their play. A timid group who lack real physicality and aggression, which is a bit strange given that was a feature of their game two years ago.
Vossy is about people, yes he has high standards and our predicament must be killing him but he is acutely aware of the effect of all this on people (players, coaches, staff, their families etc). Harry has had his troubles, who knows what Elijah is going through, that would have a flow on effect on Ollie, other players. At the same time, he gave it to the senior players right between the eyes in a measure way at 3/4 qtr time (told Weiters, Crippa and Charlie the effort was deplorable).
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 04, 2025, 11:12:38 pm
Zac williams finally repaying the club. Hope he wasn't subbed out injured.
Williams got a knock on his knee. Probably not the type of action to cause major damage but he was looking uncomfortable for a few minutes. He was probably our best up until then so it would be safe to say it was an injury sub.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 04, 2025, 11:24:49 pm
I know Vossy likes to back his senior players in but he needs to send a message this week. Acres Doc Cerra Gov Fog and maybe Lord cannot play next week. Enough with the Evans experiment also.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on July 04, 2025, 11:25:02 pm
When push came to shove, more kids stood up than senior players. That says so much.
Crippa, Weiters, McGovern, Docherty.. as 'leaders' you let the CFC down.
To the kids you stood up and took on the game, your disposal wasn't sh1te, and you never gave up... well done, the future is yours.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on July 04, 2025, 11:30:48 pm
Very, very hard to imagine how anyone could possibly be surprised at tonight's result.
Just look at the demoralising fckups from senior players in the 1st qtr, setting the tone... Acres, Crippa, Doc, McG, Weiters... take a bow.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Professer E on July 04, 2025, 11:50:29 pm
I fear it's a bad knee for Williams, he's shown a heck of a lot more in the past fortnight than I thought he was capable of. The kids aren't our problem, they go all right.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: tonyo on July 05, 2025, 12:22:16 am
Two things to take from tonight. Play Moir for every game for the rest of the year.
If TDK is worth 1.7, he should just take St Kilda's money and let some guys who want to play go out there (and if the Aints do pay up, they are as dumb as dogcrap).
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 05, 2025, 12:23:06 am
What happened to get comfortable being uncomfortable? Leadership is non existent, Voss having to plead for effort from them, another embarrassing non competitive effort. Voss looks lost in the coaching box and you have to feel for him with such non competitive frauds masquerading as a football team. He doesnt have any levers to pull with so many players just giving up and the lack of leadership and lack of care, Collingwood didnt have to get out of second gear to beat us, there was just no response. They are playing like they know Voss will be going and they will be safe so they dont care and cant be bothered for the rest of the season. It was an ordinary game to watch and I didnt think Collingwood played that well apart from feed off our errors and lack of effort. You dont often see Weitering play poorly several weeks in a row but he looks disinterested and left OFarrell to fend for himself several times and Cripps looks fed up and tired every week now. The TDK situation has festered on and done the list no good and Id keep playing Pittonet and bring Okeefe back when fit, you dont want to sign then you dont play.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: crashlander on July 05, 2025, 12:25:16 am
We're broken and battered and devoid of confidence. It's going to be a long back half of the season.
Players don't trust the system and its obvious
Alas, there is the problem in a nutshell. You look at the 2's and you see glimpses of system, good chains of run and carry, the sort of thing you look for in the 1's. But across our entire list you see poor disposal and poor decision making. Our opponents know what we're going to do before we do, because we are very predictable. And our system doesn't stand up to those sides like Collingwood, who have a clear system and play to it. They believe in their system and the believe in themselves. We don't. [1] Collingwood's centre clearance work is designed to allow Nick Daicos first use of the pill. Other players are shepherded away, allowing him a free run. Our system doesn't allow a Cripps or a Walsh or anyone that sort of free run. Zac Williams found it for periods tonight; his centre square work was exceptional. Not only did he run out of the middle, but his kicks hit targets. He didn't just bomb the ball into the forward line. When he went off, our mids struggled. Cripps and Cerra did a mountain of work, but each of their possessions was under pressure; we got the ball on ability and guts, not system. [2] You could tell that our defence is a mishmash including a lot of young, inexperienced players, as we got into our team mate's road more often than the opponents'. That almost proved lethal a number of times. Weitering and Harry O'Farrell was the most obvious one I remember. We did the same thing when we played Richmond; it was one of the major reasons we lost that game. Clearly, our youngsters have played together enough, nor does it seem we trained together. HOF had a shocker. He didn't make body contact enough and he was out-worked. However, he has a future, but he and the rest have to inculcated with our plan before they screw up like tonight. [3] We lost an amazing number of one-on-one contests tonight, which is rare for us. Collingwood took contested possessions far too easily. Carroll and O'Farrell will get better at it when they put on five to ten kgs of muscle, but they were not just the ones being beaten up. [4] Our small forwards are not looking up to scratch. They never seemed to be in the right spot to get the ball or to put pressure on. Every time the ball hit the ground in our forward line, a Collingwood player was ready and waiting for it, to run it out far too easily. Part of this problem is structural: we lacked key forwards. Part of it was our game plan, that wasn't working in the forward half at all. Part of it that most of our small forwards aren't good enough. [5] Tom de Koning was awful tonight. He barely touched the ball in the forward line or in the ruck. Just 11 possessions, and most of them were junk. I would almost drop him, he is playing so badly. He has never had much defence to his game, but his play at the moment is deplorable.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: laj on July 05, 2025, 12:55:31 am
There's serious issues in the club we don't know about. Probably at the point now of just ripping the bandaid off and getting an interim for the rest of the season, for poor old Vossy's sanity, not to mention all ours. 7 more weeks of this will be unstomachable. This could end up worse than in Bolton's dying days, and that was bad.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Bluesers on July 05, 2025, 01:38:59 am
Alas, there is the problem in a nutshell. You look at the 2's and you see glimpses of system, good chains of run and carry, the sort of thing you look for in the 1's. [5] Tom de Koning was awful tonight. He barely touched the ball in the forward line or in the ruck. Just 11 possessions, and most of them were junk. I would almost drop him, he is playing so badly. He has never had much defence to his game, but his play at the moment is deplorable.
This is what i'm hearing/reading about tdk tonight, however on afl.com.au match report they listed him as best player. Either the writer was drunk or tdk was indeed bad but the rest of the team was far worse than bad... While the result wasn't unexpected, the resolve shown by the team apparently left a lot to be desired. It's going to be a long 7 weeks.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: townsendcalling on July 05, 2025, 03:04:46 am
I fear it's a bad knee for Williams, he's shown a heck of a lot more in the past fortnight than I thought he was capable of.
Williams refuses to play through pain or any sort of discomfort where others will. How often is he subbed out during a game??
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on July 05, 2025, 06:25:56 am
We'll have to wait for scans on Williams. I thought it was more of a knock rather than the more serious hyperextension associated with things like an ACL But he seemed to have difficulty putting any weight on it. I'd have to see it again.
The AFL ladder has Sportsbet odds for the flag. Once you're statistically out of the race the odds disappear. Three weeks ago we were $67 for the flag. We're now $1001 So there telling us we're still a chance. ;) :D
Now back to reality. ::) We're gone. :( Shot.
Results don't matter anymore. "The die is cast", and Wright is about to cross the Rubicon. Whatever the outside perception and comments from the club, decisions would be pretty much locked away on coaches and some players.
Cowan, Carroll, Moir and Flynn Young need to be played as often as possible for the rest of the year. Cowan in particular and Carroll shouldn't play VFL again. I wouldn't do it for the Brisbane game, but Lemmey and Ben C need to come in for the Melbourne game. Wilson also needs to be given another go at some stage. It may be O' Farrell needs to be managed a bit more carefully than other young ones. He's a long term project and we have Young to cover until Silvagni comes back.
That's a lot of youth and it may come unstuck at times but on last night's performances at least you'll get an effort.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on July 05, 2025, 06:59:56 am
I touched on it last night, but scroll through to around the 5.15 mark and listen to Voss talk about supporting people and families and "pressure and messaging" being the least of his concerns right now. What do we make of that.
At the end he didn't shy away from the result. "We let our club down tonight"
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2025, 07:39:28 am
Lying in bed last night, I thought about who played ok and who would give a pass to: Cowan Motlop Hollands Williams Docherty (just) Haynes Pittonet HOF tried hard for a 2 gamer 8 out of 23 get a pass. The rest were rubbish and should hand back their pay cheques.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2025, 07:43:38 am
I touched on it last night, but scroll through to around the 5.15 mark and listen to Voss talk about supporting people and families and "pressure and messaging" being the least of his concerns right now. What do we make of that.
At the end he didn't shy away from the result. "We let our club down tonight"
The Fox guys made a point of how composed Voss has been during this crisis. I thought his presser was excellent, raw and honest but measured. Jon Ralph and Whately tried to make it sound like Voss was blaming people (in a bad way), Buckley and Brown jumped in and said "no mate, he was being honest", "its what happened". Ralph tried to say being honest sometimes is the wrong thing, again the two ex footballers shut him down. The Ambulance chasers will go to work (to coin a Vossism) this week.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2025, 07:49:36 am
Would have loved to be a fly on the wall during that conversation between Priestly Cook Lloyd and Wright int he rooms after the game. Lloyd seemed to have his phone out relaying what was on it to the other three. I was trying to lip read, couldnt make out for sure but Lloyd seemed to ask a question and they nodded.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on July 05, 2025, 07:59:48 am
Would have loved to be a fly on the wall during that conversation between Priestly Cook Lloyd and Wright int he rooms after the game. Lloyd seemed to have his phone out relaying what was on it to the other three. I was trying to lip read, couldnt make out for sure but Lloyd seemed to ask a question and they nodded.
"Horse said he can start Monday" "North are OK with the merger" "Big Macs all around then" :D
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2025, 08:01:10 am
Buckley was pretty fascinating to listen to after the game, he asked one pertinent question last night, "which players emptied out?" To me, other than Williams and Hollands, maybe Cowan, probably no one else.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on July 05, 2025, 08:23:35 am
I touched on it last night, but scroll through to around the 5.15 mark and listen to Voss talk about supporting people and families and "pressure and messaging" being the least of his concerns right now. What do we make of that.
At the end he didn't shy away from the result. "We let our club down tonight"
The Fox guys made a point of how composed Voss has been during this crisis. I thought his presser was excellent, raw and honest but measured. Jon Ralph and Whately tried to make it sound like Voss was blaming people (in a bad way), Buckley and Brown jumped in and said "no mate, he was being honest", "its what happened". Ralph tried to say being honest sometimes is the wrong thing, again the two ex footballers shut him down. The Ambulance chasers will go to work (to coin a Vossism) this week.
It's hard to know the extent of any disconnect beween players/coaches, coaches/coaches, players/players. What goes down behind closed doors isn't making it through to us. But something off-field just doesn't seem right. Players are parroting the same message about taking reponsibility (it was Curnow's turn last night) but that message isn't being reflected in intensity and effort in the next game.
Voss was angry last night, but he's been angry with the performances for the last three weeks as the strong parts of our game have gone South leaving just a rabble. Missing players certainly isn't helping the cause. Those games would have had a different look with Jack, Harry, Walsh, Saad, Cottrell, Kemp, Elijah,Newman playing. The structure is in a mess and our better players are struggling with the lack of a supporting group.
It's a difficult choice for Voss. He can experiment with positional changes and play kids. It's doubtful that will result in improved performances. And we know the consequences of more of the same.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2025, 08:37:11 am
Virtually 12mths to the day when we were 2nd on the ladder and we have won a measly 8 out of 26 games since. This is going to be one hell of a review and seasons end.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 05, 2025, 08:39:35 am
Buckley was pretty fascinating to listen to after the game, he asked one pertinent question last night, "which players emptied out?" To me, other than Williams and Hollands, maybe Cowan, probably no one else.
Buckley was right...Docherty tried imo but he struggles to be effective. Williams has been ok two weeks in a row which has surprised me but credit where it's due he has stood up while most of his mates have given it away.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on July 05, 2025, 09:16:14 am
Williams brings energy...and then he gets injured :(
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Thryleon on July 05, 2025, 09:27:43 am
Voss has been excellent post match last few weeks.
Takes every question head on, and plays a straight bat explaining everything but not giving anything away.
The embraced our families part to me was interesting. The vitriol i see spewed online is pretty ordinary. The amount of Carlton supporters turning on the club and players. We need to back the boys in. I made a joke last night we might need to start cheering points. We definitely need to start applauding tackles.
We are missing Sam walsh badly. He's played in all of our wins bar one, the game in Perth against West Coast and our losses without him have been terrible (Richmond round 1 and the last few weeks). When he plays we get much closer to our opponents.
On the back of recent footy we cannot consider trading him IMHO. Not without others stepping up and standing up.
You want to see why ruckman are dependent on their mids, you can look no further than our own rucks. No cripps, hewett and walsh dominating and our rucks are battlers again. A good midfield will make an average ruckman look good. A good ruck will not help an average midfield.
Collingwood are very good. Darcy Moore had an impactful contest late that hopefully maims him. Early on we were trying to play around him, but each long kick was gobbled up by the Pies defense and we were out of those contests.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Professer E on July 05, 2025, 09:31:03 am
Darcy Moore is a very good player but is umpired differently to others. Can do whatever he wants when marking, immune to blocking or HTB.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: kruddler on July 05, 2025, 09:39:55 am
You want to see why ruckman are dependent on their mids, you can look no further than our own rucks. No cripps, hewett and walsh dominating and our rucks are battlers again. A good midfield will make an average ruckman look good. A good ruck will not help an average midfield.
I'd take it a step further and say you want to see why rucks are overrated and why you are better off giving that backup ruck duty to someone who has another position he can play....
I've been banging on about it for years. Hitouts as a stat are useless. As long as you compete, and don't hit directly to the opposition, it doesn't matter who you have in there. Especially for our line-up.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: kruddler on July 05, 2025, 09:50:31 am
I touched on it last night, but scroll through to around the 5.15 mark and listen to Voss talk about supporting people and families and "pressure and messaging" being the least of his concerns right now. What do we make of that.
At the end he didn't shy away from the result. "We let our club down tonight"
There seems to be some reasons for a drop in form that are not known to us.
Maybe some of the battles from elijah and Harry are bigger or more common than we know. There were rumours about players with other players gfs and all sorts of off field distractions that could at least in part explain some of the nonsense we've seen on field. Maybe docherty got some more bad news about his cancer battle? Maybe some players got told they are not getting another contract? Maybe some assistants got they are not getting another contract (don't they need 3 months notice? That'd be now wouldn't it?)
.... or it could all be complete bollocks and we all just suck.
It was a strange thing to say and it's like him to expand on that in the future.
We talk about how 'it is not weak to speak' but then we gloss over stuff like this and pretend everything is fine and dandy. This is a big contradiction throughout the afl world and if you want to relieve some of the pressure on the players, coach and club, then perhaps be more open and honest. You'd get some sympathy and some breathing room at least.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Micky0 on July 05, 2025, 10:14:11 am
Cripps and Hewitt get a pass for their effort last night. I’ve been saying for ever, Cripps cannot carry us for ever and we see that clearly now. He’s spent. Hewitt is then shut down and that’s it.
Cerra plays too ‘pretty’ but not pretty enough in terms of good decision making! How many errors did he make last night ffs!? Acres has always made stupid errors as has McG - you just cannot rely on them.
Weiters disappointed me last night, he looked like he cbf. He’s had a bit of a strange demeanour for a while now.
Charlie, Charlie, Charlie. Not sure how it was possible he missed all those goals 🙄
Something certainly is crook in CFC. Feel for Vossy.
Continue playing the kids, season is done and dusted.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: cookie2 on July 05, 2025, 10:25:59 am
I touched on it last night, but scroll through to around the 5.15 mark and listen to Voss talk about supporting people and families and "pressure and messaging" being the least of his concerns right now. What do we make of that.
At the end he didn't shy away from the result. "We let our club down tonight"
There seems to be some reasons for a drop in form that are not known to us.
Maybe some of the battles from elijah and Harry are bigger or more common than we know. There were rumours about players with other players gfs and all sorts of off field distractions that could at least in part explain some of the nonsense we've seen on field. Maybe docherty got some more bad news about his cancer battle? Maybe some players got told they are not getting another contract? Maybe some assistants got they are not getting another contract (don't they need 3 months notice? That'd be now wouldn't it?)
.... or it could all be complete blocks and we all just suck.
It was a strange thing to say and it's like him to expand on that in the future.
We talk about how 'it is not weak to speak' but then we gloss over stuff like this and pretend everything is fine and dandy. This is a big contradiction throughout the afl world and if you want to relieve some of the pressure on the players, coach and club, then perhaps be more open and honest. You'd get some sympathy and some breathing room at least.
I don’t think we absolutely suck as much as our recent performances suggest. I tend to think that we are likely grappling with some kind of divisive situation or issue that has shattered club confidence and cohesion. I’ve no idea as to what that may be so I won’t speculate further.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: shawny on July 05, 2025, 11:04:07 am
The club and supporters need to be realistic - enough is enough and we have seen a long enough body of work to make a educated call on this. The list and all coaches, MC, LM are not going to give us any chance of adding to our tally without a massive clean out. This talk of only a few changes is nonsense.
Stop living in the 'but this list made a prelim' BS. Apart from that one year this list has done SFA every year - pull the bandaid off now!
Start afresh - and start now! Voss was an amazing footballer but the image of him sitting in the corner of the box (looked like the naughty boy put in the naughty corner) with a blank look on his face told us all he has no answers, no levels to pull and even if he did he would pull the same one till if fell off. All while the opposition coach while comfortably controlling the game staying in 2nd gear was barking instructions from the bench. What a difference.
Every single player must be on the trade table and i mean every single player.
Been supporting the blues for over 50 years and have never witnessed a team that couldn't give a fark when playing against the arch enemy. Even when we were a bottom team we would rise for these games. The rich culture i enjoyed in the 70-90s is gone and without massive change we are the new St Kilda.
So over all the talk - i heard old mate Charlie say directly after the game 'you will see a different team next week' Mate GAGF. Same as Weiterings talk during the week then they show up and deliver that.
Charlie is the epitomy of why we are so overrated by so many. He couldn't GAF - 0-7 in the last 3 weeks. Wright has to have his name on the table at years end or we are not serious.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on July 05, 2025, 11:10:56 am
The reason we are the new St Kilda is that we have continued with the same methods that used to work, but no longer do. We have been impatient, short sighted and reactive. We have let corporate methods and individuals take charge for too long. What once may have been a successful blueprint simply does not work today. Today, the patient, stable clubs are the successful clubs. The edgy, brittle, reactive clubs are anchored at the bottom.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2025, 11:21:13 am
Buckley was pretty fascinating to listen to after the game, he asked one pertinent question last night, "which players emptied out?" To me, other than Williams and Hollands, maybe Cowan, probably no one else.
Buckley was right...Docherty tried imo but he struggles to be effective. Williams has been ok two weeks in a row which has surprised me but credit where it's due he has stood up while most of his mates have given it away.
Spot on EB, he was hard at it and tried to burst through packs (along with Moo and Ollie), more than I can say for the rest.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2025, 11:22:36 am
Williams brings energy...and then he gets injured :(
Wretched luck, knee on knee/shin hurts, trust me I've had a few.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: kruddler on July 05, 2025, 11:32:22 am
Haven't looked at the Williams knee incident at length, but if it is anything more than some bruising, then i'd put my money on PCL. The old ruck 'knee-on-knee' injury. If so, could very well be season over....and who knows....might even be career over.
Hopefully its just bruising.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Blue Moon on July 05, 2025, 12:15:58 pm
Einstein said the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. I have always believed that was the definition of stupidity. What is the plan, who knows, except watching repeats of Harry Potter. Why do we keep picking McGovern, Fantasia and Evans when they keep letting us down, Fogarty, Cripps, and Pittonet can't get near the ball, and every time Cerra, Acres, Docherty and Hewitt have the ball in their hands it reminds me why I don't go in Tattslotto. TDK is playing like a guy who has made the wrong decision for the wrong reasons and knows it. When Buddy took the money and ran to Sydney he was already the best football in the league, kicking 100 goals from center half forward and playing in a Premiership, TDK is taking $1.7m on potential and is going to a Club that has only ever won one Premiership in VFA, VFL and AFL history and are probably further away from a Premiership than we are. Curnow can barely get the ball and when he does his disposal is shocking and while HayCharlesnes is going ok, I don't see the future in him. The only experienced players to stand up were Williams and Weitering. Of the young guts, O.Hollands,, Motlop, Cowans, and Moir were good, Carroll and Lord had their moments, both good and bad, Young wasn't given a go, and to put O'Farrell up against hardened professionals in a losing side is negligent. I have hopes for o'Farrell but he needs time for development. Silvagni, McKay, Walsh, Kemp, Newman, Saad and Cottrell would improve the side, as would Smith, and I think Durdin, Cincotta and Young couldn't hurt. I don't think we will see E.Hollands again. If TDK is going, when fit I would throw McKay into the rucking position and give him the same instructions Jesaulenko gave Mike Fitzpatrick when he returned form Oxford, if he wants to play for Carlton he has to become the enforcer. I am actually quite bullish about our young guys but Ben and Luke Camporeale, Binns, Lemmey, Wilson and White need to get extended runs at AFL to see if they are up to it, while along with O'Farrell, O'Keefe, Charleson, Monahan and Duffy need to be allowed to develop. This isn't 2002 or 2014, the Club isn't broke, we have good facilities and we have Young guys coming through if they are given a chance and allowed to develop. The team needs to stop worrying about what the Club's history is and start making their own history. I thought the team got a genuine F for last night's effort, the previous two weeks they got an F because you can't give anything lower.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: laj on July 05, 2025, 01:58:48 pm
We're have alot of talent but it's useless when most aren't trying. Playing as uselessly as at the end of the Bolton days. We had won 3 from 43. Soon as we sacked him we beat Brisbane the next week and won 6 from 11. Bet if Voss was sacked this week we'd beat Brisbane next week. Our good players would be suddenly good again, which is a terrible indictment on them. Don't make a PF then sit 2nd on a ladder for 20 rounds the next year without ability.
Remember near the end of Bolton's term GWS outscored us 7 goals to 1 in the last qtr with 16 men. That's how hard we were trying then. A few weeks later and a new coach and we start winning. As I said a terrible indictment.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 05, 2025, 02:17:00 pm
We're have alot of talent but it's useless when most aren't trying. Playing as uselessly as at the end of the Bolton days. We had won 3 from 43. Soon as we sacked him we beat Brisbane the next week and won 6 from 11. Bet if Voss was sacked this week we'd beat Brisbane next week. Our good players would be suddenly good again, which is a terrible indictment on them. Don't make a PF then sit 2nd on a ladder for 20 rounds the next year without ability.
Remember near the end of Bolton's term GWS outscored us 7 goals to 1 in the last qtr with 16 men. That's how hard we were trying then. A few weeks later and a new coach and we start winning. As I said a terrible indictment.
I think other teams have improved, added to their lists and we have gone backwards from 2023, we also look slower as players age and with the heavy contested style we play. We are also the worst field kicking team in the comp and I reckon that translates into poor goal kicking too. Voss doesn't have as much to work with as we might think. Our young kids are very slight and raw too, HarryO might be 197cm but has no body strength at all and we can't stick tackles . I actually saw Pendlebury running away from our mids..a 37 year old. We could be passed by Nth and Richmond next season, losing Rnd1 to a rebuild kiddie team was an indicator of how tough the league is now. We were fresh but run over by school kids...
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: laj on July 05, 2025, 02:30:05 pm
We're have alot of talent but it's useless when most aren't trying. Playing as uselessly as at the end of the Bolton days. We had won 3 from 43. Soon as we sacked him we beat Brisbane the next week and won 6 from 11. Bet if Voss was sacked this week we'd beat Brisbane next week. Our good players would be suddenly good again, which is a terrible indictment on them. Don't make a PF then sit 2nd on a ladder for 20 rounds the next year without ability.
Remember near the end of Bolton's term GWS outscored us 7 goals to 1 in the last qtr with 16 men. That's how hard we were trying then. A few weeks later and a new coach and we start winning. As I said a terrible indictment.
I think other teams have improved, added to their lists and we have gone backwards from 2023, we also look slower as players age and with the heavy contested style we play. We are also the worst field kicking team in the comp and I reckon that translates into poor goal kicking too. Voss doesn't have as much to work with as we might think. Our young kids are very slight and raw too, HarryO might be 197cm but has no body strength at all and we can't stick tackles . I actually saw Pendlebury running away from our mids..a 37 year old. We could be passed by Nth and Richmond next season, losing Rnd1 to a rebuild kiddie team was an indicator of how tough the league is now. We were fresh but run over by school kids...
Still don't lack talent. 2nd place was less than 12 months ago. Doesn't change that quick surely. Not to the extent one tumbles that far. Fact is, they are not trying. We've seen before how it can change in a week when they put in.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 05, 2025, 02:51:30 pm
I think other teams have improved, added to their lists and we have gone backwards from 2023, we also look slower as players age and with the heavy contested style we play. We are also the worst field kicking team in the comp and I reckon that translates into poor goal kicking too. Voss doesn't have as much to work with as we might think. Our young kids are very slight and raw too, HarryO might be 197cm but has no body strength at all and we can't stick tackles . I actually saw Pendlebury running away from our mids..a 37 year old. We could be passed by Nth and Richmond next season, losing Rnd1 to a rebuild kiddie team was an indicator of how tough the league is now. We were fresh but run over by school kids...
Still don't lack talent. 2nd place was less than 12 months ago. Doesn't change that quick surely. Not to the extent one tumbles that far. Fact is, they are not trying. We've seen before how it can change in a week when they put in.
If they are not trying and that goes back to rnd 1 then who is responsible...??Players, coaching staff, administrators or all of the above. What were they doing all preseason? we had ample time to prepare for Richmond and turned up and played one quarter of football. They dont deserve our support, Id listen to offers on any of our players this trade period, none of them are safe...
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Professer E on July 05, 2025, 03:00:21 pm
There's this belief that Cripps is injured to account for his lower effectiveness. I'm wondering if we need to find a different role for him outside the square as he can't get away from contests or buy a kick right now. How's about playing him as a lead up forward and relief ruck? Or has his back too far gone? I'm just thinking that teams seems have come up with a way of completely nullifying him in the square and once the ball leaves the contested zone he's a witches hat.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: kruddler on July 05, 2025, 03:15:04 pm
There's this belief that Cripps is injured to account for his lower effectiveness. I'm wondering if we need to find a different role for him outside the square as he can't get away from contests or buy a kick right now. How's about playing him as a lead up forward and relief ruck? Or has his back too far gone? I'm just thinking that teams seems have come up with a way of completely nullifying him in the square and once the ball leaves the contested zone he's a witches hat.
I was thinking the same thing.
Play him forward in tandem with Charlie and bring in Lemmey as well. Cripps can act like a tall or a small in the forward line (good with the ball on the deck) and get throw his weight around and protect Lemmey should he require it.
Bring in Ben Campo and give him time in the guts. Continue to run Motlop and Williams (if fit) in the middle to get some more speed, agility and kicking ability out of there.
Having Cripps as the 2nd ruck instead of Pittonet (or TDK if you wanna cut ties with him now) gives us a lot more versatility.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Professer E on July 05, 2025, 03:19:28 pm
I reckon him rucking would let him focus on where the ball is going and give him more chance of getting to the drop zone first, without some parasite hanging off him.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: kruddler on July 05, 2025, 03:26:28 pm
I reckon him rucking would let him focus on where the ball is going and give him more chance of getting to the drop zone first, without some parasite hanging off him.
100%
This is why i like using non-rucks in rucking roles. It frees them up of any tag/matchup they might have and allows them to influence the game directly. Whether that is Cripps or Silvagni or Harry or whoever. I've ran the numbers on hitouts to advantage and clearances and there is minimal difference from a dedicated 2nd ruck to a 'mr fix it' ruck. Might get an extra hitout to advantage or 2 at most. However, for the rest of the 115 minutes of football, the non-2nd ruck is more beneficial around the ground.
Harry played himself into form when he was allowed to stretch his legs in the ruck.
I know its only 2 games, but we've played 2 rucks twice all year and its been our 2 more unimpressive results, last night against the pies, and 2 weeks ago against the kangas.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 05, 2025, 03:32:28 pm
There's this belief that Cripps is injured to account for his lower effectiveness. I'm wondering if we need to find a different role for him outside the square as he can't get away from contests or buy a kick right now. How's about playing him as a lead up forward and relief ruck? Or has his back too far gone? I'm just thinking that teams seems have come up with a way of completely nullifying him in the square and once the ball leaves the contested zone he's a witches hat.
He is going the way of Nat Fyfe.....slowing down and becoming ineffectual, as a leader he tosses the coin and thats where it ends. He couldnt chase a loping 37 year old who isnt known for his pace either. With two brownlows he is Navy Blue Royalty but he probably needs a new cut down role and like old Royalty needs his playing time managed and Royal Duties like being captain passed on to the next generation.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: crashlander on July 05, 2025, 03:46:21 pm
Alas, there is the problem in a nutshell. You look at the 2's and you see glimpses of system, good chains of run and carry, the sort of thing you look for in the 1's. [5] Tom de Koning was awful tonight. He barely touched the ball in the forward line or in the ruck. Just 11 possessions, and most of them were junk. I would almost drop him, he is playing so badly. He has never had much defence to his game, but his play at the moment is deplorable.
This is what i'm hearing/reading about tdk tonight, however on afl.com.au match report they listed him as best player. Either the writer was drunk or tdk was indeed bad but the rest of the team was far worse than bad... While the result wasn't unexpected, the resolve shown by the team apparently left a lot to be desired. It's going to be a long 7 weeks.
Whoever thought Tom was amongst our best couldn't have been watching the game; of Tom's 11 possessions, I can recall only one leading to a scoring shot, and that he missed from 30 m out.
We didn't have a lot of good players last night; we were out-muscled, out-thought and totally without confidence. The number of times in the last quarter when we could have got goals, only to squander the opportunity ... No, I don't want to think about that. I'm not masochistic enough.
Who were our best players? Pitto tried hard and wasn't embarrassed. He was probably beaten on the night, but he wasn't as poor as Tom was. He tool 3 marks and won his share of taps. It wasn't his fault that Collingwood's centre craft got most of the clearances. Cowan: his run straight at the ball approach was pretty good on the night. 20 possessions and 8 marks was definitely worth mentioning. Williams: Honestly, Zac was probably our best player for the first 3 quarters. He had 19 possessions, 3 goals and 4 clearances, but it was the way he got his clearances that was impressive. He not only ran forward, but his disposal was excellent, hitting targets inside 50. It wasn't his fault that Charlie and Tom couldn't hit the side of a barn (from inside). When he got hurt, it really affected the way we moved the ball. Nick Haynes continues to impress, not only with his marking, but his willingness to have a go. Had he been able to hold a couple of tackles ... If wishes were horses, we'd all be up top our necks in horse kaka. :( Ollie Hollands: If there is any youngster who has stood up this season, it is Ollie. His gut running and persistence really stood out: 24 possessions and 6 tackles. Cripps and Cerra tried, they even got reasonable numbers (Cripps had 9 clearances, for example), but Collingwood's system in the middle really hurt them. It allowed the Daicos boys and Pendlebury to run unfettered out of the centre square. And with their superior disposal, our goose was cooked.
I will mention Charlie Curnow, who had 9 marks, 18 possessions and 4 scoring shots: that is a huge increase compared to recent performances. He was one of the few who won one-on-one contests in our forward line. One thing I have noted in recent times is that Charlie is not clunking his marks. He more often than not two-grabs them, which isn't helping anyone. And then there was his kicking; 4 points from 4 shots isn't good enough. And his field kicking, usually one of his strengths, was awful last night, not giving his team mates any chance of getting the ball. Mind you, the passing to him was excremental as well. When our guys have a choice of an open small forward, nearer the middle of the ground, and Charlie leading to the wing, they picked Charlie every time. But then they missed the target and .... you get the idea. How many times open forwards were burnt last night I gave up trying to count. It was too depressing.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: northernblue on July 05, 2025, 04:02:38 pm
I fear it's a bad knee for Williams, he's shown a heck of a lot more in the past fortnight than I thought he was capable of.
Williams refuses to play through pain or any sort of discomfort where others will. How often is he subbed out during a game??
Given his status as #1 whipping boy and his injury record I think he’s instructed to go to the bench for assessment rather than rip something completely. He played really well last night. And HOF needs some kg’s but that will take time, those blasting him for being pushed around by McStay, a 10 yr player mind you, need to pull their heads in.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: kruddler on July 05, 2025, 04:05:38 pm
MBB was big on TDKs work in the in-game thread. I thought it to be a little over the top, but each their own. Very surprised to see his name floated as one of our best.
Looking at the numbers, Pittonet smashed him even in areas TDK should be dominant.
Pittonet is on about 25% (at most) of what TDK is being offered, but delivered basically twice the output last night.
I'm not saying this to pump up Pitto. Rather to point out that TDK leaving is probably going to be more beneficial to the team/club/list than us keeping him. Simply not good enough.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: madbluboy on July 05, 2025, 04:18:56 pm
First quarter Kruddler. He was involved in our first 3 goals.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: madbluboy on July 05, 2025, 04:19:59 pm
Both our rucks broke even with Cameron. Problem is neither did anything outside of the ruck.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on July 05, 2025, 04:24:12 pm
It's interesting watching and reading comments from passionate Bluebaggers that, apart from a few vitriolic folks, most seem to have this resignation and bitter disappointment with how season 2025 has turned out, thus far. Plus the likelihood that the coming 7 weeks will only deliver more disappointment, with the exception of getting to at least expose some kids to senior footy.
Hope burns eternal with many supporters now turning their attention to 2026. Pretty sad.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2025, 05:25:59 pm
Coll cheer squad singing "When the Saints Go Marching in" to TDK who was in the goal square was pretty funny, get used to it Tom.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on July 05, 2025, 06:03:32 pm
It's interesting watching and reading comments from passionate Bluebaggers that, apart from a few vitriolic folks, most seem to have this resignation and bitter disappointment with how season 2025 has turned out, thus far. Plus the likelihood that the coming 7 weeks will only deliver more disappointment, with the exception of getting to at least expose some kids to senior footy.
Hope burns eternal with many supporters now turning their attention to 2026. Pretty sad.
thats all we have now. 2026.
Our season was over when we lost to North. We only had room for one more loss before that game anyway.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2025, 07:07:59 pm
It's interesting watching and reading comments from passionate Bluebaggers that, apart from a few vitriolic folks, most seem to have this resignation and bitter disappointment with how season 2025 has turned out, thus far. Plus the likelihood that the coming 7 weeks will only deliver more disappointment, with the exception of getting to at least expose some kids to senior footy.
Hope burns eternal with many supporters now turning their attention to 2026. Pretty sad.
thats all we have now. 2026.
Our season was over when we lost to North. We only had room for one more loss before that game anyway.
Agree, many will say our season was over when we lost to Richmond but yeah, all over after we lost to one of the few teams would beat in Norf.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: cookie2 on July 06, 2025, 09:28:28 am
No. You ditch the club for money you reap what you sow. Especially if you don't put in when you know you're going. We've got strong memories.
He should be playing VFL from now on.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: dodge on July 06, 2025, 05:57:25 pm
I am a little surprised at some of the strong comments about Friday night (I did end up watching most of it): - it wasn't a great side selected and going to lose by plenty. - there have been doubts for ages about Cripps', Weiters' fitness and chat about Curnow's. Leaving them out for who to come in? - Playing a heap of 'kids' at once doesn't do them favours if they have no guidance/not enough support on the ground - we continue to see this. - some players shake hands before a game. Charlie did the equivalent. What's the big deal? - one of our biggest weaknesses for a very long time has been player development. - we are not a highly skilled side and often miss (easy) targets. We play as if they are going to be hit, so find it hard to recover when the opposition pick us off. Lot of energy wasted trying to make amends. This is getting worse the deeper down the list we go, which has to affect morale and confidence. - we seem to try to get 'hail Mary' player selections. Doesn't pay off very often. - An issue of having (seemingly) highly paid top 6-8, is that the $$ are tighter further down, which will make it hard to attract enough quality players.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: kruddler on July 06, 2025, 06:22:41 pm
I am a little surprised at some of the strong comments about Friday night (I did end up watching most of it): - it wasn't a great side selected and going to lose by plenty. - there have been doubts for ages about Cripps', Weiters' fitness and chat about Curnow's. Leaving them out for who to come in?
I suggested last week that Ben come in for Cripps and Lemmey come in for Charlie.
What could we lose by giving them a game? Lost by 70 instead of 50-odd? Give them a start and see what happens. Playing an injured and out of form Cripps and Charlie helped us work out.....what exactly?
We are not in a position that we try and win at all costs right now. So lets try and get at least some benefit from it by learning about the kids.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on July 06, 2025, 07:34:34 pm
I am a little surprised at some of the strong comments about Friday night (I did end up watching most of it): - it wasn't a great side selected and going to lose by plenty. - there have been doubts for ages about Cripps', Weiters' fitness and chat about Curnow's. Leaving them out for who to come in?
I suggested last week that Ben come in for Cripps and Lemmey come in for Charlie.
What could we lose by giving them a game? Lost by 70 instead of 50-odd? Give them a start and see what happens. Playing an injured and out of form Cripps and Charlie helped us work out.....what exactly?
We are not in a position that we try and win at all costs right now. So lets try and get at least some benefit from it by learning about the kids.
It might be about finding the right moment and the right side to bring them in against. Do we go for the 'hard' lesson Moore on Lemmey, or Ben C against the Collingwood midfield might have been an excellent learning experience. It could also be a confidence sapper. I'm not sure the Brisbane game is the right one either. Melbourne would be the game. But we'll see what they do it might be this week. When they do get their chance we have to appreciate this is just for development purposes and judge them accordingly. Lemmey's out of contract this year but I reckon he's worth persisting with for another year
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2025, 07:55:25 pm
I suggested last week that Ben come in for Cripps and Lemmey come in for Charlie.
What could we lose by giving them a game? Lost by 70 instead of 50-odd? Give them a start and see what happens. Playing an injured and out of form Cripps and Charlie helped us work out.....what exactly?
We are not in a position that we try and win at all costs right now. So lets try and get at least some benefit from it by learning about the kids.
It might be about finding the right moment and the right side to bring them in against. Do we go for the 'hard' lesson Moore on Lemmey, or Ben C against the Collingwood midfield might have been an excellent learning experience. It could also be a confidence sapper. I'm not sure the Brisbane game is the right one either. Melbourne would be the game. But we'll see what they do it might be this week. When they do get their chance we have to appreciate this is just for development purposes and judge them accordingly. Lemmey's out of contract this year but I reckon he's worth persisting with for another year
I agree with all you've said here, but there is also the old "to be the best you need to beat the best" and everyone a chance to pit themselves against the reigning premiers. You might find the young kids putting their hands up begging for a crack at them. If they do, it's to be encouraged I reckon. Its all part of the learning.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Micky0 on July 06, 2025, 08:11:09 pm
How come Essendon and Scott aren’t coming under intense scrutiny, they’re going crap too
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on July 06, 2025, 08:11:34 pm
It might be about finding the right moment and the right side to bring them in against. Do we go for the 'hard' lesson Moore on Lemmey, or Ben C against the Collingwood midfield might have been an excellent learning experience. It could also be a confidence sapper. I'm not sure the Brisbane game is the right one either. Melbourne would be the game. But we'll see what they do it might be this week. When they do get their chance we have to appreciate this is just for development purposes and judge them accordingly. Lemmey's out of contract this year but I reckon he's worth persisting with for another year
I agree with all you've said here, but there is also the old "to be the best you need to beat the best" and everyone a chance to pit themselves against the reigning premiers. You might find the young kids putting their hands up begging for a crack at them. If they do, it's to be encouraged I reckon. Its all part of the learning.
Yep I'm not overly fussed if they try something like Lemmey and Ben Camporeale this week. As Kruddler mentioned there's not a great deal hanging on it now. We can manage the minutes. If it turns to crap we can move a few magnets. Just wondering though, with the changes last week, and similar changes suggested for this week...is it too much all at once. There's probably a couple of schools of thought operating here. One would be for trying to halt or pause the situation with an element of stability. The other would be for as much youth and experimentation as possible.
A combination would probably be the best approach with a couple of youngsters getting a try each week and replacing a couple of other youngsters. Give them a couple of games each before the end of the year, and we go into the off-eason with a bit of an idea how they perform at senior level.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on July 06, 2025, 08:15:59 pm
How come Essendon and Scott aren’t coming under intense scrutiny, they’re going crap too
It is bit strange that the team sitting 12th on the ladder is copping a ton more flack than the 6 teams below it. I guess it's about 2 things 1) Stage of development 2) Failure to meet Expectations
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: kruddler on July 06, 2025, 08:53:13 pm
I agree with all you've said here, but there is also the old "to be the best you need to beat the best" and everyone a chance to pit themselves against the reigning premiers. You might find the young kids putting their hands up begging for a crack at them. If they do, it's to be encouraged I reckon. Its all part of the learning.
Yep I'm not overly fussed if they try something like Lemmey and Ben Camporeale this week. As Kruddler mentioned there's not a great deal hanging on it now. We can manage the minutes. If it turns to crap we can move a few magnets. Just wondering though, with the changes last week, and similar changes suggested for this week...is it too much all at once. There's probably a couple of schools of thought operating here. One would be for trying to halting the situation with an element of stability. The other would be for as much youth and experimentation as possible.
A combination would probably be the best approach with a couple of youngsters getting a try each week and replacing a couple of other youngsters. Give them a couple of games each before the end of the year, and we go into the off-eason with a bit of an idea how they perform at senior level.
Couple ways to take it. If the kids can match it, or perform 'good enough then they can gain a huge amount of confidence.
If you save them for Melbourne and they get flogged, then they might feel more flat than if it was against the Lions.
Depends on the type of person they are and what drives them. Was it mick or Denis or said a big game in front of a big crowd is like a final and is like 5 games of experience.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Thryleon on July 06, 2025, 09:09:05 pm
I reckon its purely about the balance.
Last week moir, hof, and m.carrol came in. Playing lemmey with that might mean the players play the position a bit differently to how the rest of the side expect and causes frustration everywhere.
This week, it might be Saad is back, so maybe lemmey could come in. Also I'm not a fan of the yo yo senior selection that seems to be happening. One in, back out next week.
We need to try more players but if they're coming in for their debut, a few games at the level would be good. Evans and moir didnt set the G alight but they gave plenty of effort on Friday night. Moir even looked good at times, and I noted he's taking a turn on the ball. Shows enough to persist with there. Dare I say it he has saved himself particularly if we are giving up on elijah hollands (which we shouldn't do IMHO).
Evans is a all effort player. I really want him to succeed but he just doesnt have the kit bag imho. Must be likeable bloke though as the guys were getting around him when he was doing his best to tackle and getting nowhere.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: kruddler on July 06, 2025, 09:23:46 pm
We had 6 changes. What's the difference between 6 and 7 or 8 changes?
Fwiw, Fantasia and fogarty can have a spell. Let them gain some.confidence in the 2s. Output in the 1s hasn't been terrible, but hasn't been top shelf either.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Thryleon on July 06, 2025, 09:28:06 pm
Its not the number of changes its the role and how its played. We are already not well drilled. We have a few blokes trying to learn running patterns and then add too many doing that and you demoralise the rest.
We've only played about 3 to 4 players with minimal afl experience most weeks.
I expect that to continue not because of the names but because its something Carlton hasn't had before. We tend to scorch earth rebuild, so everyone is learning together.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Sub-Zero on July 06, 2025, 10:46:11 pm
How come Essendon and Scott aren’t coming under intense scrutiny, they’re going crap too
Youth thing, "Baby Bombers" vs premiership window thing, us. They didn't have as much expectations coming into this year. Scott will have to be under scrutiny though.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: kruddler on July 07, 2025, 04:08:51 pm
Its not the number of changes its the role and how its played. We are already not well drilled. We have a few blokes trying to learn running patterns and then add too many doing that and you demoralise the rest.
We've only played about 3 to 4 players with minimal afl experience most weeks.
I expect that to continue not because of the names but because its something Carlton hasn't had before. We tend to scorch earth rebuild, so everyone is learning together.
I get what you are saying, and most times you'd be very much correct.
I'll ask you this and you decide if that would've matter in this instance.
By NOT making those extra couple of changes, was our team performance better off as a result? Keeping in mind we had our (almost) biggest defeat of the year of 56 points. Was there any benefit by not making 'too many' changes? Would it have matter if it was 50 point defeat or 70-80 point defeat?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: northernblue on July 07, 2025, 04:15:23 pm
Arguably it does Krudds but as has been said theres no hard and fast right/wrong in any of this. One player will react positively to a spray, another will sulk another might never play again, they all need a tailored relationship and coaching, so to play too many kids at once may very well damage some.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: kruddler on July 07, 2025, 04:23:04 pm
Arguably it does Krudds but as has been said theres no hard and fast right/wrong in any of this. One player will react positively to a spray, another will sulk another might never play again, they all need a tailored relationship and coaching, so to play too many kids at once may very well damage some.
Sure. It MAY damage some. Agree.
Playing injured players IS damaging them (physically and emotionally) and their reputation and the morale of the rest of the players, the club, its supporters.
So its a risk i'd be willing to take. For battle-hardened blokes like Cripps and Charlie who have played 10+ years or more, a 1-week rest is such a luxury. Simply giving them a week and playing a kid in their place for that week will not bring the club to its knees. So just roll the dice. You never know, it may work!
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Thryleon on July 07, 2025, 04:42:10 pm
Its not the number of changes its the role and how its played. We are already not well drilled. We have a few blokes trying to learn running patterns and then add too many doing that and you demoralise the rest.
We've only played about 3 to 4 players with minimal afl experience most weeks.
I expect that to continue not because of the names but because its something Carlton hasn't had before. We tend to scorch earth rebuild, so everyone is learning together.
I get what you are saying, and most times you'd be very much correct.
I'll ask you this and you decide if that would've matter in this instance.
By NOT making those extra couple of changes, was our team performance better off as a result? Keeping in mind we had our (almost) biggest defeat of the year of 56 points. Was there any benefit by not making 'too many' changes? Would it have matter if it was 50 point defeat or 70-80 point defeat?
Hard to measure.
Its as much a rhetorical question, but lets subtract the needs of the individual slightly and look at the bigger picture.
Lemmey we want to find out whether or not he can compete at AFL level. we are putting him in vs a team who is cruising to a flag, and playing him in a forwardline composing of Lachie Fogarty (one dimensional) Ashton Moir (no dimension to speak of yet), Zac Williams (Good but broken) Tom De koning as the relief ruck, Charlie Curnow, Orazio Fantasia with interchange forwards of Jesse Motlop and Frankie evans.
Evans was the obvious one, but ultimately his VFL form demanded a game, so he wasnt going out. Who does Lemmey come in for?
Its very easy sitting in the arm chair playing team selector, but I wouldn't like to play a forwardline sans curnow when we are already missing Mckay. Moir maybe, but he is running on ball, so Lemmey isnt doing that. TDK? Dropping him in favour of Lemmey when Pittonet has been very patchy at AFL level is risky. You rob the mids if we end up rucking Lemmey at all, because he is ruck sized, but not ruck competitive. you touched on playing Cripps hurt, but that means we cant run Moir on ball because we played Lemmey.
We already carried HOF in, who was coming in cold. Playing Lewis Young instead of HOF doesnt help him either.
Its a balance. IF your goal is to get Lemmey into the team, you can achieve that, but if your goal is to do the right thing by the team, is playing Lemmey the right option?
As per northerns comment, there is no way that is right, and none that is wrong. Had he played I would have said yep, probably time to test him. We have 6 games to go though and he will get a shot, and I dont think its going to be one and done.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: kruddler on July 07, 2025, 05:10:36 pm
I get what you are saying, and most times you'd be very much correct.
I'll ask you this and you decide if that would've matter in this instance.
By NOT making those extra couple of changes, was our team performance better off as a result? Keeping in mind we had our (almost) biggest defeat of the year of 56 points. Was there any benefit by not making 'too many' changes? Would it have matter if it was 50 point defeat or 70-80 point defeat?
Hard to measure.
Its as much a rhetorical question, but lets subtract the needs of the individual slightly and look at the bigger picture.
Lemmey we want to find out whether or not he can compete at AFL level. we are putting him in vs a team who is cruising to a flag, and playing him in a forwardline composing of Lachie Fogarty (one dimensional) Ashton Moir (no dimension to speak of yet), Zac Williams (Good but broken) Tom De koning as the relief ruck, Charlie Curnow, Orazio Fantasia with interchange forwards of Jesse Motlop and Frankie evans.
Evans was the obvious one, but ultimately his VFL form demanded a game, so he wasnt going out. Who does Lemmey come in for?
Its very easy sitting in the arm chair playing team selector, but I wouldn't like to play a forwardline sans curnow when we are already missing Mckay. Moir maybe, but he is running on ball, so Lemmey isnt doing that. TDK? Dropping him in favour of Lemmey when Pittonet has been very patchy at AFL level is risky. You rob the mids if we end up rucking Lemmey at all, because he is ruck sized, but not ruck competitive. you touched on playing Cripps hurt, but that means we cant run Moir on ball because we played Lemmey.
We already carried HOF in, who was coming in cold. Playing Lewis Young instead of HOF doesnt help him either.
Its a balance. IF your goal is to get Lemmey into the team, you can achieve that, but if your goal is to do the right thing by the team, is playing Lemmey the right option?
As per northerns comment, there is no way that is right, and none that is wrong. Had he played I would have said yep, probably time to test him. We have 6 games to go though and he will get a shot, and I dont think its going to be one and done.
For the record, i said the perfect time to play Lemmey was against the Kangas. Instead we played 2 rucks...and well....you know my thoughts on that. The result of that game certainly doesn't hurt my point. Last week was not ideal, but nothing to lose. Similar this week.
We can continue to find excuses to not play certain players, but at the end of the day, we are just hurting ourselves and our long term future but not finding out if he (or anyone) is AFL ready, especially when they are in form.
I have no ties to Lemmey and had him as one of my most likely to be delisted a few months ago. So its no personal agenda. I just think if you have injured players playing and performing blokes in the 2's....and you are not getting wins in the 1's or have much to play for, what are you doing as a football club??
For the record, 12 months ago when we were sitting 2nd and 6 points clear of 3rd i said similar. REST your top liners and give some kids a go. We had a small injury list and were sitting high and mighty. Our MC continued to play our best players who were carrying injuries and those injuries became more and more severe throughout our list to the point that we could barely fill a team and Bradbury'd into finals. So be careful putting too much faith in our all knowing MC. They have a history of making mistakes that cost us. I think they are making more now. Last year it was playing injured players. This year its similar. In this case, i think Lemmey is being the most hard done by....and Ben Campo not too far behind based on recent efforts.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Thryleon on July 07, 2025, 05:22:51 pm
^^
Its not an excuse to not play him. For gods sake, watch him play at VFL Level and tell me whether or not you want a slower lumbering tall, who is a focal point getting 3 or 4 touches, and relying on perfect delivery to take a mark. He has superior reach in the VFL and is out marking players and converting truly.
Actually let me paint a picture a different way. We played DGB at key forward on the weekend. He showed as much if not more than Lemmey did, and he is a failed AFL defender parading as a forward.
Thats not to say im in favour of not playing him.
Against North, I think we were looking at a different equation but would have understood that selection too. In fact, any game where Lewis young was selected as a Key Forward is where Lemmey probably should have played, but he is a bit matt watson like for me. We are playing him out of the square, he is leading up. Taking a mark, and kicking a goal. About once a quarter, maybe slightly more. It is the VFL, and against better opposition it was Corey Durdin kicking the sealer not Harry Lemmey. Thats not to say he wont be good enough, but I dont see Lemmey as being AFL capable athletically at this stage. Or maybe, we are hiding him for this season, because we dont want everyone to know we have a key forward waiting and to inflate Mckays asking price if someone wants a trade. Who knows for sure?
Im not worried about the MC and placing faith in them. Ive seen enough with my own eyes to know that there are multiple reasons why guys arent getting a game. Moir is the example here. He was REALLY good at VFL level last week, as was Frankie Evans. Into the ones, and average would be an improvement for both, because they are not AFL competitive yet.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 17 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: BlackRooster on July 07, 2025, 07:36:03 pm
Maybe the wrong place fro this but after tge game, the next day scrolling through Insta trying to block the world out while the pain was slowly disappearing, i came across some Bristol City Soccer fans chants.. I started thinking my be we supports should be a little up beat and sing stuff like: We lose every week, we lose ever week, you nothing speacial we lose every week. Anyway have a look it might bring a smile to your face.
To finish Moir was good, Carroll was good, Cowan was good, poor Harry was feed to the lions. BUT keep playing these kids for the rest of the year. Lets find out what we have.