Out Acres De Koning McGovern Cerra In Campo Campo Lemmey Charleson/Cincotta
I'd leave those changes for one more week. Next week won't be a good time for debuts
Forgot Fogarty who was atrocious and has run out of tickets. It doesnt matter now Lods, what's done is done, let's have a look at what we have. You cannot back in the above after what they have put in the last 3 weeks. More damage cannot possibly be done. De Koning and Acres need to play the next 7 in the 2s and then they can both fark off, utterly disgraceful for senior players.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2025, 08:20:33 am
Oh forgot my favourite, does Charlies 18 disposal, 0.3 score, 9 mark, 0 tackle game (3 goals in 5 games) give him a leave pass?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 05, 2025, 08:49:39 am
Out Acres De Koning McGovern Cerra In Campo Campo Lemmey Charleson/Cincotta
I'd leave those changes for one more week. Next week won't be a good time for debuts
Tend to agree....more kids vs the Dees but vs the Lions Id resist the temptation. It's like sending them to the Lions literally...with no leadership to back them up.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: pinot on July 05, 2025, 10:33:02 am
More vaseline for the club - more bashing of players throughout the week.
A squad with A graders on every line playing with no spirit, no heart. no desire, no grit and no system.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2025, 11:23:55 am
More vaseline for the club - more bashing of players throughout the week.
A squad with A graders on every line playing with no spirit, no heart. no desire, no grit and no system.
A graders lol, wanna point them out so I can call BS?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: pinot on July 05, 2025, 12:01:01 pm
Weitering - AA Cripps - AA 2x Brownlow Curnow - AA 2x Coleman Docherty - AA Haynes - AA
Missing
Walsh - AA Saad - AA McKay - AA + Coleman
Even with those missing - there is A grade talent on every single line.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Professer E on July 05, 2025, 12:28:41 pm
Ok, let's pick ONE ruck and ONE ruck only - Kruddler is 100% correct. TdK plays like dog crap when Pitto plays, every single time. TdK at his best gives us some marking power around the ground, Pitto doesn't. I'd be having a serious chat with Tom this week, commit or GAGF the saga is selfish and clearly damaging the fabric of the club. There's the ruck choice, but if Pitto plays he has to be way more aggressive and lead the way. Pick another marking target across half forward FFS - Lemmy or HoK to at least draw the flies away from Chuck. There's a warm body to play second ruck, they just have to compete, not expecting Gary Dempsey reincarnated. Stick with Moir, looked a bit tentative at times but that might be a confidence thing. Tell Charlie that if they're hanging off him, get angry. Smash anybody dumb enough to enter the drop zone and if they're hanging on..... Fogarty can run around in the twos, been rubbish for an extended period. I'd try Boyd across half forward. Last chance saloon. Maybe even Flynn or Billy for some zip, oh, any small forwards who don't get three tackles don't get another contract. Enough of the failure to apply pressure, they embarassed themselves last night.
Acres can go get whatever work he needs doing done and replaced by Lucas C. Can't carry the worst kick in the AFL anymore. Cerra can go learn commitment and decision making in the two, replaced by Ben C. Cincotta would give us somebody who would at least tackle and block in the centre square. I'd be sticking with Moo and Matty C, at least they tried I thought. If there's a match up for HoF I'd keep him as well. The pace of the game was too hot for him early but he kept trying to do the right thing. The pies tried to do a Jack Watts on him and break him, gees they are ruthless. McGovern - I could write an essay on this bloke but seriously, anybody would be of more use than this fumbling, mistake prone disappointment. I'd even consider playing Young and consider Matty C to cover the hybrid types.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2025, 04:52:52 pm
What are you smoking mate? Like many Carlton supporters, you have an over inflated opinion of our list.
Sounds like you know the obvious answer why the squad and system has not progressed and has not improved since 2023 Preliminary Final.
Do watch any games?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 05, 2025, 11:09:47 pm
Cincotta didn't play VFL tonight. Similar to O'Farrell last week.
That's probably an indication that with the short break he will play against Brisbane.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on July 05, 2025, 11:40:36 pm
They're all 100% fit though.... :D
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 06, 2025, 06:23:39 am
None of our AA players are playing anywhere near their best. Many, if not most, never will again, as age and cumulative injuries, catches up to them. There won't be many All-Austalians from Carlton this year. :(
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2025, 07:16:48 am
None of our AA players are playing anywhere near their best. Many, if not most, never will again, as age and cumulative injuries, catches up to them. There won't be many All-Austalians from Carlton this year. :(
My point exactly Lods, we have far to many senior players resting on their laurels at the minute. A Coleman Medalist who has been goal less for two weeks and only kicked a couple in the weeks before that isn't worth a pinch of salt right now (I cleaned that one up let me tell you).
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: pinot on July 06, 2025, 10:07:00 am
None of our AA players are playing anywhere near their best. Many, if not most, never will again, as age and cumulative injuries, catches up to them. There won't be many All-Austalians from Carlton this year. :(
Thats not the point - the point is why are they not playing to their best and who is in a position to ensure they are managed to be at their best.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2025, 10:36:48 am
None of our AA players are playing anywhere near their best. Many, if not most, never will again, as age and cumulative injuries, catches up to them. There won't be many All-Austalians from Carlton this year. :(
Thats not the point - the point is why are they not playing to their best and who is in a position to ensure they are managed to be at their best.
Themselves FFS.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 06, 2025, 10:38:58 am
None of our AA players are playing anywhere near their best. Many, if not most, never will again, as age and cumulative injuries, catches up to them. There won't be many All-Austalians from Carlton this year. :(
Thats not the point - the point is why are they not playing to their best and who is in a position to ensure they are managed to be at their best.
Some of these issues are not fixable. Docherty, Saad and Haynes' (although he's going OK)-all their best football is well behind them. They're not and won't be AA selections again. Walsh has been carrying a degenerative injury for a couple of years now. It's likely to get worse not better and will cause problems in other areas. Curnow had no pre-season McKay has had issues both with his mental health and injury.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2025, 12:48:58 pm
Thats not the point - the point is why are they not playing to their best and who is in a position to ensure they are managed to be at their best.
I imagine the management of them being at their best is a collaborative, coordinated effort including players, line coaches, fitness and high performance staff, senior coaches, dieticians etc. The players are not circus animals, and the senior coach is not a ringmaster.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on July 06, 2025, 12:51:29 pm
I cant fathom this never see it ever again. The guys we are talking about are 27 turning 28.
Most players peak at these ages, and having an injury now isnt an indicator of the future.
Its so defeatist.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: pinot on July 06, 2025, 12:55:47 pm
Thats not the point - the point is why are they not playing to their best and who is in a position to ensure they are managed to be at their best.
I imagine the management of them being at their best is a collaborative, coordinated effort including players, line coaches, fitness and high performance staff, senior coaches, dieticians etc. The players are not circus animals, and the senior coach is not a ringmaster.
So why do we need a senior coach and his staff? What you are saying they are pointless to have at a club.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 06, 2025, 12:58:15 pm
I imagine the management of them being at their best is a collaborative, coordinated effort including players, line coaches, fitness and high performance staff, senior coaches, dieticians etc. The players are not circus animals, and the senior coach is not a ringmaster.
So why do we need a senior coach and his staff? What you are saying they are pointless to have at a club.
You dont sometimes, by Parkins own admission, the 1995 group virtually coached themselves. They were self motivated and drove the standards hard. The 2025 virtually need their arses wiped.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2025, 12:59:44 pm
None of our AA players are playing anywhere near their best. Many, if not most, never will again, as age and cumulative injuries, catches up to them. There won't be many All-Austalians from Carlton this year. :(
Thats not the point - the point is why are they not playing to their best and who is in a position to ensure they are managed to be at their best.
Pinot, your first question is one of the better questions you’ve asked and its answer is the holy grail of human endeavor and in particular team sport. What makes 22 blokes so much better than another 22 blokes ?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 06, 2025, 03:03:50 pm
I think you need a certain percentage of your players that require no coaching in skills, game plan or being reminded of their obligations and responsibilities. They might need looking after physically with injuries or getting them right for games but mentally they arrive switched on each week and are very self motivated. Examples for me from our recent opponents are Pendlebury and Maynard, two different types of personalities but one the ultimate professional who trains like he plays and Maynard who once he crosses the white line has an appetite for winning at all costs and doesnt need to be sprayed for lack of effort like our senior players. When you watch us train which I have a few times this season, there doesnt seem that edge to what we do and almost a sense of entitlement from some of our players that a stroll around Ikon park will suffice and you see stuff like kicks not hitting targets or sloppy handballs just like you see in games. It was interesting watching new kid Steele play for the Pies and a bit of newbie Stevens play for Geelong and they just seem senior ready and fit straight in as seamless additions and know the game plan. Our kids always look a bit underdeveloped and overwhelmed eg Harry OFarrell, Billy Wilson, you can see they have something to offer but are not quite ready and are unsure of what to do next.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 06, 2025, 03:30:06 pm
I cant fathom this never see it ever again. The guys we are talking about are 27 turning 28.
Most players peak at these ages, and having an injury now isnt an indicator of the future.
Its so defeatist.
It's not defeatist Thry It's facing reality. One or two may get back to a semblance of their best. Others are passed it, and are approaching the end of their careers And some have suffered significant injuries, not just once , but have had a number of seasons derailed by injury. Injuries can have a cumulative effect. When you're young you can recover quickly. As you age it takes it's toll. Injuries to a back can lead to compensatory injuries in the hamstrings, calves and feet, due to an imbalance. Some injuries are degenerative and time (and age) is the enemy.
Now in a group you may get one or two who can make a full recovery and play there best football in their late 20's early 30s. But if that group is large, the more likely result is that you've seen the best of some of these players.
Of our All-Australian players currently listed I would reckon the majority will never see AA again. And that was the point. That they'll all never reach that level again. We'll have others who will come on...but not all of that group. But time will tell
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2025, 03:38:41 pm
Whether or not these players can reach their previous lofty heights is IMO a secondary consideration. The real issue IMO is whether they can get back to playing consistent good quality football. I'd suggest plenty of good footballers are never even AA in the first place. The fall can be marginal, and can be recoverable. Hopefully the journey is not one way.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 06, 2025, 03:57:39 pm
Whether or not these players can reach their previous lofty heights is IMO a secondary consideration. The real issue IMO is whether they can get back to playing consistent good quality football. I'd suggest plenty of good footballers are never even AA in the first place. The fall can be marginal, and can be recoverable. Hopefully the journey is not one way.
I think the debate stemmed form the fact that because we had A grade quality on every line we should be doing better...and that was backed up by a list of our AA players
The response was, that while at one time they may have been AA, injury and age means that they are currently not producing that A grade form.
Some like Docherty are close to the end, Saad may have a year or two left. Haynes is performing well, though is probably not too far from his final games, also maybe one or two years at the most (I'd like to see him transition into a coaching position with us)
Good football vs Career best football for the rest? There are some high standards there-Brownlows, Colemans. Just about everyone mentioned is capable of good/excellent football games. Best ever??? Consistently???
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2025, 04:18:40 pm
Lods. I appreciate that. I would suggest that when a team is struggling, you won't find players in good form, whether that's AA form or something else. There is clearly a list wide malaise that is affecting all our players, whether they have been A grade or not. Injuries are as you say clearly another contributing factor. IMO, I would not think what we see at the moment is the ceiling for any of our players going forward, whether they are stars or not.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2025, 04:24:42 pm
To put it another way, I still believe that Harry, Charlie, Walsh, Cripps, Weitering etc still have within them the potential to play much better than they're playing now. I don't believe they've fallen off a cliff.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 06, 2025, 04:45:17 pm
To put it another way, I still believe that Harry, Charlie, Walsh, Cripps, Weitering etc still have within them the potential to play much better than they're playing now. I don't believe they've fallen off a cliff.
Totally agree. Part of the issue is that some of the players you mention (Weitering, Cripps) are forced to carry an extra load because of missing parts of the structure. It also means they lack the support that would normally allow them to play their natural games.
McKay, Curnow and especially Walsh are injury carrying/ susceptible. They're a different kettle of fish. I'd add Jack to that list because he's become an important part of the defensive structure this year and a support for Weitering. To me their effectiveness and returning to something approaching their best (and that includes their durability and consistency of performance) is very much a wait and see.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on July 06, 2025, 04:52:58 pm
Totally agree. Part of the issue is that some of the players you mention (Weitering, Cripps) are forced to carry an extra load because of missing parts of the structure. It also means they lack the support that would normally allow them to play their natural games.
McKay, Curnow and especially Walsh are injury carrying/ susceptible. They're a different kettle of fish. I'd add Jack to that list because he's become an important part of the defensive structure this year and a support for Weitering. To me their effectiveness and returning to something approaching their best (and that includes their durability and consistency of performance) is very much a wait and see.
That all sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: pertz on July 06, 2025, 09:17:08 pm
Totally agree. Part of the issue is that some of the players you mention (Weitering, Cripps) are forced to carry an extra load because of missing parts of the structure. It also means they lack the support that would normally allow them to play their natural games.
McKay, Curnow and especially Walsh are injury carrying/ susceptible. They're a different kettle of fish. I'd add Jack to that list because he's become an important part of the defensive structure this year and a support for Weitering. To me their effectiveness and returning to something approaching their best (and that includes their durability and consistency of performance) is very much a wait and see.
That all sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Tend to agree. The list definitely needs an overhaul. With the top end talent, some are getting near the end and tough calla need to be made (eg Doc), some may have injury concerns we don't know about (Crippa, Charlie). The middle/bottom end needs a clean out. I would be cutting / trading in no particular order - Motlop, Fogarty, Evans, Fantasia, Acres, Williams, Young, Guv and O. Holland's. I don't believe any of these players are the future. Cut deep now, rip off the band aid.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on July 06, 2025, 09:25:20 pm
I cant fathom this never see it ever again. The guys we are talking about are 27 turning 28.
Most players peak at these ages, and having an injury now isnt an indicator of the future.
Its so defeatist.
It's not defeatist Thry It's facing reality. One or two may get back to a semblance of their best. Others are passed it, and are approaching the end of their careers And some have suffered significant injuries, not just once , but have had a number of seasons derailed by injury. Injuries can have a cumulative effect. When you're young you can recover quickly. As you age it takes it's toll. Injuries to a back can lead to compensatory injuries in the hamstrings, calves and feet, due to an imbalance. Some injuries are degenerative and time (and age) is the enemy.
Now in a group you may get one or two who can make a full recovery and play there best football in their late 20's early 30s. But if that group is large, the more likely result is that you've seen the best of some of these players.
Of our All-Australian players currently listed I would reckon the majority will never see AA again. And that was the point. That they'll all never reach that level again. We'll have others who will come on...but not all of that group. But time will tell
sorry lods I just want to say that injuries and dealing with them are part good management, part rehab, part preparation, part attitude, part patience and mostly a little luck.
1I've never met an injured bloke cut down and not capable of playing at the elite level ever again no matter the column of their injuries, they usually run out of time before they run out of lives. Weiters has barely had a real problem. Harry has had more issue with concussion than his body. Charlie is unique. He's showing the ability he used to have but his form is poor and second efforts absent. More conditioning IMHO. once conditioning goes optimum performance is harder to achieve but it can come back.
Pros come back from injuries in every code. It might be we need some of these guys spending more time rehabbing and playing rather than doing any real training but only a solid pre season affords that capability. Something they all seem to have suffered with.
Zac williams has the worst injury history of the bunch. Nick haynes isnt much better. Both have played their best footy in years this season. I think Zac's durability is still a question and given we are playing for naught now, I think weve taken the opportunity to take him off before something serious happens.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: pinot on July 06, 2025, 09:31:46 pm
List isnt the problem - it's drilling a squad.
Chris Scott has drilled Geelong - no matter who is in or out they are drilled as a squad. Chris Fagan has drilled Brisbane Craig McRae has drilled Collingwood Sam Mitchell has drilled Hawthorn Adam Kingsley has drilled GWS Hardwick has drilled GCS,
What do these coaches have in common?
They were not re employed after getting sacked.
Lyon, Brad Scott, Clarkson is banana territory
Longmuir is just an awful coach like Buckley.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on July 06, 2025, 09:51:25 pm
Chris Scott has drilled Geelong - no matter who is in or out they are drilled as a squad. Chris Fagan has drilled Brisbane Craig McRae has drilled Collingwood Sam Mitchell has drilled Hawthorn Adam Kingsley has drilled GWS Hardwick has drilled GCS,
What do these coaches have in common?
They were not re employed after getting sacked.
Lyon, Brad Scott, Clarkson is banana territory
Longmuir is just an awful coach like Buckley.
There's a theme there. Ignoring the afl love children with an embarrassment of riches in the playing group and potentially some afl salary cap leeway, and the other coaches are at clubs who have a history of having their house in order.
When I look around the afl, I see a variety of teams doing various things, but what I see is the following teams seem to have an identity and brand that was built 20 years ago and a DNA that is manifesting today.
Those clubs are:
Geelong Sydney Collingwood Hawthorn Western bulldogs have joined this group sometime in the early 2000's and I remember them being an absolute basket case football club in the 90's with the odd star.
IF Richmond turn it around quickly during this rebuild and get back into finals they will also have shed their history of shambles to get back in there.
Brisbane may be part of this conversation since the Fitzroy merger. They lost their way for a bit but seem to be back.
We used to be part of this conversation but we've lost our way as a club.
The above show an air of being uber competitive and a unique brand that just keeps finding a way to dominate the competition.
Its the clubs that are making coaches successful not the other way around. The coaches lead the place whilst in charge, but ultimately they are only as successful as the club let's them be.
We as a footy club have been doing our best to make sure the afl team experiences nothing but failure. Its almost like the club goes out of its way to shoot itself in the foot. Its driven by the best intentions but its also very much a club that appears to have a bunch of people tinkering in the operation of it, with minimal strategy.
We've had one attempt at a rebuild. We appointed a coach and gave him a list strategy and then endorsed giving him a mandate to set our on field house in order. Unfortunately we weren't winning and the bottom line started being impacted as sponsors jumped off and then we had to short circuit it.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 06, 2025, 10:11:46 pm
It's not defeatist Thry It's facing reality. One or two may get back to a semblance of their best. Others are passed it, and are approaching the end of their careers And some have suffered significant injuries, not just once , but have had a number of seasons derailed by injury. Injuries can have a cumulative effect. When you're young you can recover quickly. As you age it takes it's toll. Injuries to a back can lead to compensatory injuries in the hamstrings, calves and feet, due to an imbalance. Some injuries are degenerative and time (and age) is the enemy.
Now in a group you may get one or two who can make a full recovery and play there best football in their late 20's early 30s. But if that group is large, the more likely result is that you've seen the best of some of these players.
Of our All-Australian players currently listed I would reckon the majority will never see AA again. And that was the point. That they'll all never reach that level again. We'll have others who will come on...but not all of that group. But time will tell
sorry lods I just want to say that injuries and dealing with them are part good management, part rehab, part preparation, part attitude, part patience and mostly a little luck.
1I've never met an injured bloke cut down and not capable of playing at the elite level ever again no matter the column of their injuries, they usually run out of time before they run out of lives. Weiters has barely had a real problem. Harry has had more issue with concussion than his body. Charlie is unique. He's showing the ability he used to have but his form is poor and second efforts absent. More conditioning IMHO. once conditioning goes optimum performance is harder to achieve but it can come back.
Pros come back from injuries in every code. It might be we need some of these guys spending more time rehabbing and playing rather than doing any real training but only a solid pre season affords that capability. Something they all seem to have suffered with.
Zac williams has the worst injury history of the bunch. Nick haynes isnt much better. Both have played their best footy in years this season. I think Zac's durability is still a question and given we are playing for naught now, I think weve taken the opportunity to take him off before something serious happens.
I don't think I've suggested that Harry and Charlie cant still play very good football. What I'm not sure about is their ability to come back and play as good or better football than they have before. To me that's a wait and see. They may. We'll have to agree to disagree. I think that "running out of time" that you speak of is the cumulative effect of injuries and wear and tear on the body. It can happen late 20s It can happen Mid 30s Just as an example look at Nat Fyfe's last five or six years.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on July 07, 2025, 08:44:23 am
sorry lods I just want to say that injuries and dealing with them are part good management, part rehab, part preparation, part attitude, part patience and mostly a little luck.
1I've never met an injured bloke cut down and not capable of playing at the elite level ever again no matter the column of their injuries, they usually run out of time before they run out of lives. Weiters has barely had a real problem. Harry has had more issue with concussion than his body. Charlie is unique. He's showing the ability he used to have but his form is poor and second efforts absent. More conditioning IMHO. once conditioning goes optimum performance is harder to achieve but it can come back.
Pros come back from injuries in every code. It might be we need some of these guys spending more time rehabbing and playing rather than doing any real training but only a solid pre season affords that capability. Something they all seem to have suffered with.
Zac williams has the worst injury history of the bunch. Nick haynes isnt much better. Both have played their best footy in years this season. I think Zac's durability is still a question and given we are playing for naught now, I think weve taken the opportunity to take him off before something serious happens.
I don't think I've suggested that Harry and Charlie cant still play very good football. What I'm not sure about is their ability to come back and play as good or better football than they have before. To me that's a wait and see. They may. We'll have to agree to disagree. I think that "running out of time" that you speak of is the cumulative effect of injuries and wear and tear on the body. It can happen late 20s It can happen Mid 30s Just as an example look at Nat Fyfe's last five or six years.
interesting comparison check. Fyfe's plight is arguably as much a lack of desire as it was injury. His extra curricular activities were a priority for him because thats where the money was.
How's callan ward as a better example? 2019 and 2020 he looked very much finished with ACL's at age 30. He's been able to get back and play a few years of very good footy until once again succumbing to his acl rupture this season but he looked gone 5 years ago.
Matthew kreuzer was another who's body let him down. He missed a lot more footy over the journey than any of our current crop have. Thing is he's at the club can have some convos with the guys and they will be able to make an informed decision about things.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 07, 2025, 08:58:40 am
It was a while ago and training and sports medicine has advanced but probably the stand out example was Kouta who was never the same player after injury. Like most things it is individual specific as to how injuries compound and affect performance...and how people recover.
I'm saying that as they age and injuries compound it will mean that over a time players reach a point where their best is behind them. I'm pretty certain we've reached that point with Docherty. I suspect it's the same with Saad. Whether it's the same with others is a wait and see...My gut feeling is that of our players who were once considered the best in their positions not all if any will reach those levels again...there are no guarantees either way. But it doesn't mean they can't still be very good valuable players until their inevitable time comes.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on July 07, 2025, 10:04:26 am
Chris Scott has drilled Geelong - no matter who is in or out they are drilled as a squad. Chris Fagan has drilled Brisbane Craig McRae has drilled Collingwood Sam Mitchell has drilled Hawthorn Adam Kingsley has drilled GWS Hardwick has drilled GCS,
What do these coaches have in common?
They were not re employed after getting sacked.
Lyon, Brad Scott, Clarkson is banana territory
Longmuir is just an awful coach like Buckley.
This isn't IMO a good argument. By this logic, the only viable candidates for senior coach are first timers or coaches that left previous clubs of their own accord.
Dogmatic beliefs rely on skewed perspectives and cherry picking data. Our greatest ever coach was sacked 4 times, including being reappointed at Carlton for a second stint, by a fair number of the same board, President, Vice President etc that sacked him in the first place.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: pinot on July 07, 2025, 12:02:08 pm
It was a while ago and training and sports medicine has advanced but probably the stand out example was Kouta who was never the same player after injury. Like most things it is individual specific as to how injuries compound and affect performance...and how people recover.
I'm saying that as they age and injuries compound it will mean that over a time players reach a point where their best is behind them. I'm pretty certain we've reached that point with Docherty. I suspect it's the same with Saad. Whether it's the same with others is a wait and see...My gut feeling is that of our players who were once considered the best in their positions not all if any will reach those levels again...there are no guarantees either way. But it doesn't mean they can't still be very good valuable players until their inevitable time comes.
I dont think we need players that are the best in the comp in a said position. We need players that know and understand what they are doing. For us, we have some of the best players in the competition which makes our position untenable.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 07, 2025, 01:33:03 pm
I dont think we need players that are the best in the comp in a said position. We need players that know and understand what they are doing. For us, we have some of the best players in the competition which makes our position untenable.
Which brings us back to the original argument.... Are these players still some of the best? Are they playing like some of the best at the moment? If not, will they be some of the best again.
The old saying that a "Champion team will always beat a team of Champions" probably applies to us in spades when you consider how well some opposition clubs 'team' together. We're not in the same ballpark in terms of connection.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 07, 2025, 02:16:28 pm
I dont think we need players that are the best in the comp in a said position. We need players that know and understand what they are doing. For us, we have some of the best players in the competition which makes our position untenable.
Which brings us back to the original argument.... Are these players still some of the best? Are they playing like some of the best at the moment? If not, will they be some of the best again.
The old saying that a "Champion team will always beat a team of Champions" probably applies to us in spades when you consider how well some opposition clubs 'team' together. We're not in the same ballpark in terms of connection.
Voss was employed to build a Champion team not a list of Champions, not that we have many true Champions apart from Cripps imho anyway and some of our supposed better players are way overhyped. Looking at our opponents and reigning Premiers, Id suggest Fagan isnt a great tactical genius much like Voss but the one thing he has done well is weld that talented list into a champion team who play for each other. They are well known for being tight off the field and you never hear any bad stuff about relationships going sour with coach/players and they have overcome the player retention issues that many interstate clubs face as well as being a destination club. A lot of that has also been put down to Greg Swann running the club well but has now left and taken on a job at the AFL so it will be interesting to see if they can maintain that bond and smooth off field running.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on July 07, 2025, 02:51:35 pm
Which brings us back to the original argument.... Are these players still some of the best? Are they playing like some of the best at the moment? If not, will they be some of the best again.
The old saying that a "Champion team will always beat a team of Champions" probably applies to us in spades when you consider how well some opposition clubs 'team' together. We're not in the same ballpark in terms of connection.
Voss was employed to build a Champion team not a list of Champions, not that we have many true Champions apart from Cripps imho anyway and some of our supposed better players are way overhyped. Looking at our opponents and reigning Premiers, Id suggest Fagan isnt a great tactical genius much like Voss but the one thing he has done well is weld that talented list into a champion team who play for each other. They are well known for being tight off the field and you never hear any bad stuff about relationships going sour with coach/players and they have overcome the player retention issues that many interstate clubs face as well as being a destination club. A lot of that has also been put down to Greg Swann running the club well but has now left and taken on a job at the AFL so it will be interesting to see if they can maintain that bond and smooth off field running.
Well aside from whatsapp photos and what not over in Vegas anyway... :D
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: northernblue on July 07, 2025, 04:11:12 pm
Voss was employed to build a Champion team not a list of Champions, not that we have many true Champions apart from Cripps imho anyway and some of our supposed better players are way overhyped. Looking at our opponents and reigning Premiers, Id suggest Fagan isnt a great tactical genius much like Voss but the one thing he has done well is weld that talented list into a champion team who play for each other. They are well known for being tight off the field and you never hear any bad stuff about relationships going sour with coach/players and they have overcome the player retention issues that many interstate clubs face as well as being a destination club. A lot of that has also been put down to Greg Swann running the club well but has now left and taken on a job at the AFL so it will be interesting to see if they can maintain that bond and smooth off field running.
Well aside from whatsapp photos and what not over in Vegas anyway... :D
My thoughts too Thry :D
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 07, 2025, 04:42:20 pm
Well aside from whatsapp photos and what not over in Vegas anyway... :D
My thoughts too Thry :D
Every team has those moments, but the players are tight just like the Rat pack were at Collingwood and off field hijinks did then no harm and both Collingwood and Brisbane handled that stuff well imo to secure premierships. Our Von Trapp kids probably need a night or two in Vegas to toughen up...
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Professer E on July 07, 2025, 04:46:28 pm
Didn't a brissie player knock over disabled bloke at a taxi rank and snatch his cab?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: northernblue on July 07, 2025, 05:04:36 pm
I dont think we need players that are the best in the comp in a said position. We need players that know and understand what they are doing. For us, we have some of the best players in the competition which makes our position untenable.
Which brings us back to the original argument.... Are these players still some of the best? Are they playing like some of the best at the moment? If not, will they be some of the best again.
The old saying that a "Champion team will always beat a team of Champions" probably applies to us in spades when you consider how well some opposition clubs 'team' together. We're not in the same ballpark in terms of connection.
Class is permanent until you cant run and jump. Half the 1995 Premiership team were in their 30s with long injury histories.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 07, 2025, 07:42:54 pm
Which brings us back to the original argument.... Are these players still some of the best? Are they playing like some of the best at the moment? If not, will they be some of the best again.
The old saying that a "Champion team will always beat a team of Champions" probably applies to us in spades when you consider how well some opposition clubs 'team' together. We're not in the same ballpark in terms of connection.
Class is permanent until you cant run and jump. Half the 1995 Premiership team were in their 30s with long injury histories.
Who were the players over 30 in the 1995 premiership side? How many of those had long injury histories?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: laj on July 07, 2025, 08:18:37 pm
Chris Scott has drilled Geelong - no matter who is in or out they are drilled as a squad. Chris Fagan has drilled Brisbane Craig McRae has drilled Collingwood Sam Mitchell has drilled Hawthorn Adam Kingsley has drilled GWS Hardwick has drilled GCS,
What do these coaches have in common?
They were not re employed after getting sacked.
Lyon, Brad Scott, Clarkson is banana territory
Longmuir is just an awful coach like Buckley.
This isn't IMO a good argument. By this logic, the only viable candidates for senior coach are first timers or coaches that left previous clubs of their own accord.
Dogmatic beliefs rely on skewed perspectives and cherry picking data. Our greatest ever coach was sacked 4 times, including being reappointed at Carlton for a second stint, by a fair number of the same board, President, Vice President etc that sacked him in the first place.
Sacked coaches can be very successful but lost their job as the Board don't think he can get through to the players anymore after being there for a long time. Those sacked coaches aren't failures and often go on the do very well elsewhere. History is littered with those. Parkin, Hafey, Matthews, even Wallsy. Walls lost the players badly at Carlton in 1989 after a GF, Flag and a PF, that happens, but went on to turn Brisbane around to the point they have hardly looked back, outside of an ordinary few yeears before Fagan. When Parko came back his voice was fresh again and again had results.
On the other hand there have been coaches that simply struggled in the senior job and the time they got another job they failed again. Peter Knights was an example of that. Those hsouldn;t go to 2nd clubs if the club is smart. I'll give Vossy his due, he was alot better with us then with Brisbane, but gradually a couple of his shortcomings rise to the surface. Tactically he has always struggled and sides take advantage of that lack of tactical nous. Also, Vossy could never rebuild a side. He seems to always want it to happen "now". Can tell by his error with list management at Brisbane, which ended up crashing then, and selection integrity at Carlton. There is a suspicion he kept playing big names when they weren't right, something Russell seemed to allued to, rather than, what he sees a as a risk, playing the younger bloke. We have more debutants playing this year but seemingly out of necessity. Whether players have bucked up, we will never know.
Unfortunately, it seems now he has lost the players something horrid.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 07, 2025, 08:26:58 pm
This isn't IMO a good argument. By this logic, the only viable candidates for senior coach are first timers or coaches that left previous clubs of their own accord.
Dogmatic beliefs rely on skewed perspectives and cherry picking data. Our greatest ever coach was sacked 4 times, including being reappointed at Carlton for a second stint, by a fair number of the same board, President, Vice President etc that sacked him in the first place.
Sacked coaches can be very successful but lost their job as the Board don't think he can get through to the players anymore after being there for a long time. Those sacked coaches aren't failures and often go on the do very well elsewhere. History is littered with those. Parkin, Hafey, Matthews, even Wallsy. Walls lost the players badly at Carlton in 1989 after a GF, Flag and a PF, that happens, but went on to turn Brisbane around to the point they have hardly looked back, outside of an ordinary few yeears before Fagan. When Parko came back his voice was fresh again and again had results.
On the other hand there have been coaches that simply struggled in the senior job and the time they got another job they failed again. Peter Knights was an example of that. Those hsouldn;t go to 2nd clubs if the club is smart. I'll give Vossy his due, he was alot better with us then with Brisbane, but gradually a couple of his shortcomings rise to the surface. Tactically he has always struggled and sides take advantage of that lack of tactical nous. Also, Vossy could never rebuild a side. He seems to always want it to happen "now". Can tell by his error with list management at Brisbane, which ended up crashing then, and selection integrity at Carlton. There is a suspicion he kept playing big names when they weren't right, something Russell seemed to allued to, rather than, what he sees a as a risk, playing the younger bloke. We have more debutants playing this year but seemingly out of necessity. Whether players have bucked up, we will never know.
Unfortunately, it seems now he has lost the players something horrid.
Still playing unfit players, Weitering and Cripps were both unfit to play Port, his list management was diabolical at Brisbane. To be fair the club employed Hansen to do the tactical stuff which has been a complete failure and I cant see him being retained. Like Shawny I had my doubts on Voss when appointed and have those same doubts when I hear Longmire and Simpson being suggested if we go down the replace the coach path.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on July 07, 2025, 08:30:47 pm
One has to legitimately wonder if there exists a Guinness World Records entry for lost players. The number of Carlton coaches that seem to "lose the players" is staggering, not only for the frequency with which it it occurs, but the brief time period between occurrences. Every few years, we hear about losing the players. Pagan, Malthouse, Teague, Bolton, now Voss. They don't seem to get lost at other clubs.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: RiverRat on July 07, 2025, 11:36:51 pm
One has to legitimately wonder if there exists a Guinness World Records entry for lost players. The number of Carlton coaches that seem to "lose the players" is staggering, not only for the frequency with which it it occurs, but the brief time period between occurrences. Every few years, we hear about losing the players. Pagan, Malthouse, Teague, Bolton, now Voss. They don't seem to get lost at other clubs.
Pagan, Malthouse and Bolton definitely lost the players but I don't recall hearing about Teague (or Ratten) 'losing the players'; they seemed to suffer from impatience at Board level when the injury bug hit and bigger name coaches were available.
IMO Teague and Ratten were better skill-development coaches who deserved to be given more support. So far, the lack of skill development suggests that Voss lacks similar capabilities.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on July 08, 2025, 07:28:35 am
Pagan, Malthouse and Bolton definitely lost the players but I don't recall hearing about Teague (or Ratten) 'losing the players'; they seemed to suffer from impatience at Board level when the injury bug hit and bigger name coaches were available.
IMO Teague and Ratten were better skill-development coaches who deserved to be given more support. So far, the lack of skill development suggests that Voss lacks similar capabilities.
Carlton players must be a very unique breed. Malthouse did not seem to lose the players at Footscray, or West Coast, or Collingwood. Then suddenly he gets to Carlton.....
Pagan didn't seem to lose the players throughout his junior coaching days (fantastic record), didn't seem to lose the players at North. Then suddenly he comes to Carlton.......
I remain highly skeptical that the typical discourse(s) conducted by supporters bears much resemblance at all to the discourse conducted by football people within the four walls. If one measures this "losing the players" by on field performance, then I guess our fluctuations under Voss are like a case of lost and found ? First half 23, lost. Second half 23, found. First half 24, found, etc.
Sorry but I don't buy it. I should make it clear that my ire is not directed at you.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: LP on July 08, 2025, 07:36:37 am
I remain highly skeptical that the typical discourse(s) conducted by supporters bears much resemblance at all to the discourse conducted by football people within the four walls. If one measures this "losing the players" by on field performance, then I guess our fluctuations under Voss are like a case of lost and found ? First half 23, lost. Second half 23, found. First half 24, found, etc.
Sorry but I don't buy it. I should make it clear that my ire is not directed at you.
I suspect it's more likely there are factions between players than a specific issue with the coach.
If there are factions in our group they are enabled and driven by the culture at the club, these things do not form bottom up without some failure of governance.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 08, 2025, 07:51:07 am
I blame Parkin/ Brittain and their player empowerment. >:( There was a time when the coach had the power...except for Percy Jones :D Who by a strange quirk is our most statistically successful coach apart from a couple of stand-ins in the last 100 years. Perhaps that's the secret. Change the coach every year. ;)
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on July 08, 2025, 07:54:17 am
I suspect it's more likely there are factions between players than a specific issue with the coach.
If there are factions in our group they are enabled and driven by the culture at the club, these things do not form bottom up without some failure of governance.
Whether this is true or not, it does at least sound plausible IMO.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Baggers on July 08, 2025, 08:05:40 am
I remain highly skeptical that the typical discourse(s) conducted by supporters bears much resemblance at all to the discourse conducted by football people within the four walls. If one measures this "losing the players" by on field performance, then I guess our fluctuations under Voss are like a case of lost and found ? First half 23, lost. Second half 23, found. First half 24, found, etc.
Sorry but I don't buy it. I should make it clear that my ire is not directed at you.
I suspect it's more likely there are factions between players than a specific issue with the coach.
If there are factions in our group they are enabled and driven by the culture at the club, these things do not form bottom up without some failure of governance.
And governance of the playing group lies with the football manager and senior coach. Again we land at inadequate leadership.
Good leadership spots 'groups within groups/factions' very early and nips it in the bud, then asks themselves the vital question, "How did this eventuate?" "What have I failed to create that allowed such divisions to eventuate?"
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: LP on July 08, 2025, 08:18:26 am
And governance of the playing group lies with the football manager and senior coach. Again we land at inadequate leadership.
I think that's an oversimplification.
We've had an issue spanning too many coaching regimes for this just to be the coaches, it's most likely having too many of the wrong type of people with close access to the playing group. Too many cooks.
Personally, I see it in the outbursts of Mathieson Snr. When Dick Pratt was up and about, and to some degree Sayers, the faceless types were schtum. In between we get noise and we see chaos result, in my opinion that is a huge tell!
Whiteants are always about, some caretakers are good at keeping watch and staying the threat, others not so much! Whiteants are the biggest threat to success because they are opportunistic and driven by reward, they are more insidious, more devious, when the prize is large.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 08, 2025, 08:22:43 am
I suspect it's more likely there are factions between players than a specific issue with the coach.
If there are factions in our group they are enabled and driven by the culture at the club, these things do not form bottom up without some failure of governance.
Whether this is true or not, it does at least sound plausible IMO.
I think it's very plausible
We can't know for sure, and we're all a bit guided by our own perceptions.
So with that in mind.... To me it seems like there are a group of players who fully embrace the style of play Voss is trying to accomplish. They're supportive, and are trying to push those less committed to play in the same way. And while that second group may be partially on board, that type of football is physically demanding and high pressure. When you're not on board 100%, and sometimes not physically capable, or doubt your ability to perform an assigned task then it's difficult to commit fully, and as the pressure of the game intensifies you get that drop off of effort. Doubt sets in..."this isn't working", "it's happening again"
It's not a major rift between players...they all seem to get around when someone does well. They've flown the flag a couple of times. They may be fairly tight off the field. It's more the subtle support on field that somtimes seems to be lacking, the things that are hardly noticeable-blocking, shepherding, support in tackles, running hard to provide an option.
Of course that's all just a personal guess and may be well off the mark. But something is just not right and at the moment it doesn't seem fixable.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on July 08, 2025, 08:56:51 am
We have too many silver spoon players at AFL level who think they are better than everyone else.
How many times you think Walsh, Weitering, Cripps, McKay, Curnow have played VFL?
Then they look at the VFL boys and think they arent good enough to be there. Notice how JSOS doesnt suffer from this? He's an average player with above average motivation to give his all for the team competitively and is the only reason he has forged a 100 game AFL career.
Groups within groups always happen at footy clubs, but that doesnt mean alot.
I get the idea they are church choir boys relative to the old school footballers who played up a lot more off the field. Most of these guys are getting on and having kids. This is another reason why im not in a hurry to go straight to the youth. We seem to have a lord of the flies situation at Carlton most of the time, where all the old players are shunted to the background and the young kids run the place and most of them are not mature enough to set the appropriate standards. We had Judds leadership into Marc Murphy into Patrick Cripps and Sam Docherty as co captains back then. Would be nice to have some continuity in the team, retire our older players, add a youthful layer from wherever in the draft, supplement with some VFL types, and bringing in some free agents and one thing that carrying players from draft into retirement will do, will create an environment where perhaps turbulence isnt a factor to the career you forge.
Geelong, Collingwood and Hawthorn seem to have that. Sure, no guarantees you will have a long career but the premature delisting, trading and offing of players who are still capable of playing good footy to get youth in will leave your club morally bankrupt as you treat people as commodities rather than loyal servants.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: northernblue on July 08, 2025, 09:01:24 am
To be fair, you’ve got to have circa 10% of your list as commodities each year
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 08, 2025, 09:53:51 am
To be fair, you’ve got to have circa 10% of your list as commodities each year
Agree, it's professional sport , we are not running an encounter group for the players, it's the supporters who are the loyal servants, we need the therapy.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: RiverRat on July 08, 2025, 11:45:55 am
Carlton players must be a very unique breed. Malthouse did not seem to lose the players at Footscray, or West Coast, or Collingwood. Then suddenly he gets to Carlton.....
Pagan didn't seem to lose the players throughout his junior coaching days (fantastic record), didn't seem to lose the players at North. Then suddenly he comes to Carlton.......
I remain highly skeptical that the typical discourse(s) conducted by supporters bears much resemblance at all to the discourse conducted by football people within the four walls.
Sorry but I don't buy it. I should make it clear that my ire is not directed at you.
I was within the four walls during the Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse and Teague coaching stints and I have no doubt that Pagan and Malthouse lost (or never had) the players, which did not seem to be the case with either Teague or Ratten.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: pinot on July 08, 2025, 11:56:42 am
Sacking Ratten and Teague is a club that went into full retard mode.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 08, 2025, 11:56:59 am
Carlton players must be a very unique breed. Malthouse did not seem to lose the players at Footscray, or West Coast, or Collingwood. Then suddenly he gets to Carlton.....
Pagan didn't seem to lose the players throughout his junior coaching days (fantastic record), didn't seem to lose the players at North. Then suddenly he comes to Carlton.......
I remain highly skeptical that the typical discourse(s) conducted by supporters bears much resemblance at all to the discourse conducted by football people within the four walls.
Sorry but I don't buy it. I should make it clear that my ire is not directed at you.
I was within the four walls during the Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse and Teague coaching stints and I have no doubt that Pagan and Malthouse lost (or never had) the players, which did not seem to be the case with either Teague or Ratten.
I never felt the seniors players had the buy in with Teague and let him down. The younger players excelled with his full on attacking style but never felt the older players had faith in him.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: shawny on July 08, 2025, 11:58:57 am
Hardly one post in this thread about the upcoming game. Says volumes of how far off we are.
Many including me make up 'likely' scenarios in our head (mostly ones that suit what we want to believe) whereby the true reality is we have no fking clue about the inside workings, players fitness levels, players playing injured, coach player connection etc etc. We just have our opinion on what the issues are run with it like its a fact.
The only fact is the scoreboard and on that basis alone most aspects have failed including the bulk of the playing list, the senior coach and all his assistants - all failures. FULL STOP. The only area of the club succeeding is the financial side and that will be under pressure as a lot of that was built off high probability of on-field future success.
All i hope for is a real strong statement at seasons end to make ballsy change to all areas without worrying about the names of the changes. We need to earn our stripes again by taking no prisoners and showing all the club comes first from our best player to our last player on the list because as it stands we have no respect in this competition which is saddest part for what was such a powerful proud successful club.
I just dont buy into small changes will do it and i dont care about 'how that has gone for us in the past mantra' - the group is miles off it and without considerable improvement in the off season we will again be all bark no bite.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on July 08, 2025, 12:04:43 pm
I was within the four walls during the Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse and Teague coaching stints and I have no doubt that Pagan and Malthouse lost (or never had) the players, which did not seem to be the case with either Teague or Ratten.
Right. This would give you a unique insight. Why do you think this seems to be a problem at Carlton (I'm speaking of Malthouse and Pagan) when these successful premiership coaches were well regarded and did not appear to "lose the players" at their previous clubs ?
If you start with one theory popularized by supporters, i.e we keep picking the wrong bloke, which then has a downstream effect where the coach will lose the players, then the choice of coach is pot luck, and our problems are very deep, because the ones doing the selecting have no clue, and after a certain honeymoon period the players cease to care. Big if true.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Professer E on July 08, 2025, 12:17:38 pm
Not every North player was enamoured about Pagan and his methods. I've heard Adam Simpson describe some of his "coaching" in less than glowing terms and Corey McKernan was not a fan either - he left to come to us, and checked out again when Pagan came across to us. There's two examples straight off the bat. Kouta writes about it in detail in his book. It was 1980s hard ass coaching for a 2000s group that didn't respond to that approach. Some people would call them "soft", others would say they were independent enough to not unthinkingly swallow abuse and BS. Pagan was the kind of coach you played to spite, not to because he was your mate.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on July 08, 2025, 12:22:16 pm
Not every North player was enamoured about Pagan and his methods. I've heard Adam Simpson describe some of his "coaching" in less than glowing terms and Corey McKernan was not a fan either - he left to come to us, and checked out again when Pagan came across to us. There's two examples straight off the bat. Kouta writes about it in detail in his book. It was 1980s hard ass coaching for a 2000s group that didn't respond to that approach. Some people would call them "soft", others would say they were independent enough to not unthinkingly swallow abuse and BS. Pagan was the kind of coach you played to spite, not to because he was your mate.
There is IMO, a difference between a couple of dissenting voices (inevitable when you have 40+ players, assistant coaches and other support staff) and the seemingly en masse switching off, which, if you follow this theory (not sure that I do), seem to be endemic at our club. And not just as a one off. Over and over again.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Professer E on July 08, 2025, 12:31:11 pm
It's clearly happened elsewhere - Essendon during Matty Knights, St Kilda more than once, Geelong back in the day. It's a trait of troubled clubs and I suspect largely player-culture driven.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: LP on July 08, 2025, 12:31:27 pm
There is IMO, a difference between a couple of dissenting voices (inevitable when you have 40+ players, assistant coaches and other support staff) and the seemingly en masse switching off,
I think in Pagan's case, he had Carey and he had Archer, and that made a huge difference because it greatly diminished the opinions of the rest. But that might be normal for any club.
In all my years in and around football clubs, I've never found a club with undisputed and unequivocal unity, such claims usually come retrospectively after a flag or other similar success, but they are a mirage.
So perhaps losing some players is normal, and it is who you lose that makes all the difference.
But I'd still assert, if the top leadership and by top I mean above the coach, is stable, consistent and gives the coach unconditional support. Usually issues never grow beyond a seed. Whiteants live in rot.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 08, 2025, 12:40:25 pm
Not every North player was enamoured about Pagan and his methods. I've heard Adam Simpson describe some of his "coaching" in less than glowing terms and Corey McKernan was not a fan either - he left to come to us, and checked out again when Pagan came across to us. There's two examples straight off the bat. Kouta writes about it in detail in his book. It was 1980s hard ass coaching for a 2000s group that didn't respond to that approach. Some people would call them "soft", others would say they were independent enough to not unthinkingly swallow abuse and BS. Pagan was the kind of coach you played to spite, not to because he was your mate.
I worked with one of the Nth players GFs who was scathing of Pagan and Carey and how the club treated rank and file players. Pagan let Carey and his crew run the playing group and it was unpleasant if you were on the wrong side of the King. When Pagan came to Carlton there was no Carey to sort out the players...
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on July 08, 2025, 12:57:41 pm
I'll summarise as follows.
We sit at arms length from the club, casual observers outside of it and dont really have skin in the game and have varying degrees of opinions and generally dont agree on what is wrong, and how to fix it.
This is of itself fine but there would be people inside the club who are of the same thinking.
What matters isnt that they arent in agreement but how they disagree.
I.e. I respect you but dont agree with your opinion or methods so I'm going to "check out".
That is a toxic behaviour. Irrespective of the method. Football clubs are attempting utopia. Keeping 45 blokes happy is a challenge of itself. Keeping 30 would be hard enough, but you can choose your hard. We dont seem to have an exodus at the blues. Guys dont walk after having enough. We've had a few opt out unless the conditions are right but more tend to opt in. If TDK is an example of that, he's got a lot of money and a club on the skids as a reason to leave. No one will blame him for that, but of the rest anyone who has left, only tuohy left of his own volition and he is scathing of the Brendan bolton era being a reason behind it and the club not valuing him at the time. However that suits him. He walked to a premiership outfit and greener pastures (pun intended).
Who else has walked out on us? It appears to be happening in a minute but half the forum want to trade everyone anyway which makes me wonder are they walking because of us or are we effectively going to enact a strategy that sees them walk?
Underneath that, I dont buy that the club loses players. We arent in good nick, and it shows on field this season. You can see it in the newbies who are bog average VFL players getting lots of games and pointing at the absences. The crystal ball cant tell you what will happen next year, but its not because players arent in. I think they're clever enough to know the condition of their teamates relative to the competition and that is explaining the lack of belief in what they're doing.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on July 08, 2025, 01:03:44 pm
If you want to debate that bit, have a look at what happened in Brisbane's start to last season. Thats what an absence of belief does to a team. Took them a few weeks and a really big win at the G vs Melbourne but it corrected their trajectory and put them back on track last year. Sure they needed some effort and some luck but its all part of it. Im interested in hawthorn last year. They looked unstoppable when they were fit. They've had some players breakdown and have started looking way more fragile lately.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on July 08, 2025, 01:38:26 pm
I think in Pagan's case, he had Carey and he had Archer, and that made a huge difference because it greatly diminished the opinions of the rest. But that might be normal for any club.
In all my years in and around football clubs, I've never found a club with undisputed and unequivocal unity, such claims usually come retrospectively after a flag or other similar success, but they are a mirage.
So perhaps losing some players is normal, and it is who you lose that makes all the difference.
But I'd still assert, if the top leadership and by top I mean above the coach, is stable, consistent and gives the coach unconditional support. Usually issues never grow beyond a seed. Whiteants live in rot.
I'd generally agree.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 08, 2025, 02:23:15 pm
Id be dropping TDK and Charlie Curnow this week, the former has checked out and has been poor the past few weeks and Charlie hasnt kicked a goal for three weeks and been half arsed and ultra casual about his work and Id have both in the VFL team for a couple of weeks to think about their responsibilities to the team. If they want to sulk about it they can stay in the ressies, and in Charlies case Id put him up for trade if he wouldnt change his attitude. Voss has been reticent to drop big names probably because his job is on the line and he fears losing their support but I think if we had done it earlier on we might have sent a stronger message on how the club will be operating for the rest of the season and that when he said get used to being comfortable about being uncomfortable he meant it.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: RiverRat on July 08, 2025, 02:31:24 pm
I was within the four walls during the Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse and Teague coaching stints and I have no doubt that Pagan and Malthouse lost (or never had) the players, which did not seem to be the case with either Teague or Ratten.
Right. This would give you a unique insight. Why do you think this seems to be a problem at Carlton (I'm speaking of Malthouse and Pagan) when these successful premiership coaches were well regarded and did not appear to "lose the players" at their previous clubs ?
It seemed to me that Pagan and Malthouse had been successful, at least in part, due to well-established dictatorial imposition of inflexible game plans over multiple seasons but that they struggled to transpose those systems to Carlton - although Pagan was also adversely affected by the AFL-imposed draft penalties. The Pagan references in Kouta's book were also consistent with the atmosphere around the club at the time.
Conversely, Ratten and Teague came to the club as assistant coaches who were impressively hands-on in the skill development of individual players and both seemed to benefit from the personal relationships that they developed with the players.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on July 08, 2025, 02:39:37 pm
It seemed to me that Pagan and Malthouse had been successful, at least in part, due to well-established dictatorial imposition of inflexible game plans over multiple seasons but that they struggled to transpose those systems to Carlton - although Pagan was also adversely affected by the AFL-imposed draft penalties. The Pagan references in Kouta's book were also consistent with the atmosphere around the club at the time.
Conversely, Ratten and Teague came to the club as assistant coaches who were impressively hands-on in the skill development of individual players and both seemed to benefit from the personal relationships that they developed with the players.
Fair enough. Thanks for that.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 08, 2025, 02:44:05 pm
Id be dropping TDK and Charlie Curnow this week, the former has checked out and has been poor the past few weeks and Charlie hasnt kicked a goal for three weeks and been half arsed and ultra casual about his work and Id have both in the VFL team for a couple of weeks to think about their responsibilities to the team. If they want to sulk about it they can stay in the ressies, and in Charlies case Id put him up for trade if he wouldnt change his attitude. Voss has been reticent to drop big names probably because his job is on the line and he fears losing their support but I think if we had done it earlier on we might have sent a stronger message on how the club will be operating for the rest of the season and that when he said get used to being comfortable about being uncomfortable he meant it.
He was often maligned but one of the players who left us to go to another club who I really admire was Bryce Gibbs. He tried 'unsuccessfully' to head to Adelaide at the end of the 2016 season but deal couldn't be done. He didn't sook about it. He came back in 2017 and put his head down and played some really good football, statistically one of his best seasons (43 disposals and 10 tackles in one game) He knew he would try again for the move at the end of the year but still gave us good efforts. Tom looks likely to go. The least we can expect is that he plays in a similar fashion right up until the end.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 08, 2025, 03:01:06 pm
Id be dropping TDK and Charlie Curnow this week, the former has checked out and has been poor the past few weeks and Charlie hasnt kicked a goal for three weeks and been half arsed and ultra casual about his work and Id have both in the VFL team for a couple of weeks to think about their responsibilities to the team. If they want to sulk about it they can stay in the ressies, and in Charlies case Id put him up for trade if he wouldnt change his attitude. Voss has been reticent to drop big names probably because his job is on the line and he fears losing their support but I think if we had done it earlier on we might have sent a stronger message on how the club will be operating for the rest of the season and that when he said get used to being comfortable about being uncomfortable he meant it.
He was often maligned but one of the players who left us to go to another club who I really admire was Bryce Gibbs. He tried 'unsuccessfully' to head to Adelaide at the end of the 2016 season but deal couldn't be done. He didn't sook about it. He came back in 2017 and put his head down and played some really good football, statistically one of his best seasons (43 disposals and 10 tackles in one game) He knew he would try again for the move at the end of the year but still gave us good efforts. Tom looks likely to go. The least we can expect is that he plays in a similar fashion right up until the end.
Yep I wasnt a real fan of Bryce Gibbs but he did show plenty of character and played some of his better footy when he had to come back after his trade request fell through and I think that enamoured him to Carlton supporters and enhanced his reputation. TDK on the other hand if he goes wont be remembered for anything else but being a mercenary who gave us donuts in his last games and will be copping it from all angles when he lines up for the Saints and their supporters wanting 1.7 mill a years value every time he takes the field, he is going to be under more pressure to deliver than ever before. Id like to see us get Rowan Marshall and have the better of that whole scenario with Marshall dominating for us...
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Professer E on July 08, 2025, 04:11:32 pm
Marshall isn't as flashy but he's a reliable footballer - exactly what we need right now. Don't know how we'd wangle it though.
Free agency is a con job, it's only there for the strong clubs to prey on the weak, or the weak have to pay mega overs (like the sniffers) to compete.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 08, 2025, 04:13:06 pm
Yep I wasnt a real fan of Bryce Gibbs but he did show plenty of character and played some of his better footy when he had to come back after his trade request fell through and I think that enamoured him to Carlton supporters and enhanced his reputation. TDK on the other hand if he goes wont be remembered for anything else but being a mercenary who gave us donuts in his last games and will be copping it from all angles when he lines up for the Saints and their supporters wanting 1.7 mill a years value every time he takes the field, he is going to be under more pressure to deliver than ever before. Id like to see us get Rowan Marshall and have the better of that whole scenario with Marshall dominating for us...
Not if but when he goes, the heat he is copping now will pale into insignificance compared to next year and beyond. Saddle up Tom, put your big boy pants and enjoy the ride, I think its going to end in tears for him but he'll have 12M reasons to not give a f- - - .
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 08, 2025, 04:14:53 pm
Marshall isn't as flashy but he's a reliable footballer - exactly what we need right now. Don't know how we'd wangle it though.
He wont stay when Tom arrives so he'll want out, only question is whether he'd entertain us or wants to go to Sth Australia. If he's interested, should be too hard to satisfy him.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Professer E on July 08, 2025, 04:14:59 pm
Well he is currently playing like he doesn't give a F so he's getting some practise in early.
Toms money straight to Rohan. Done.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 08, 2025, 04:17:11 pm
Not every North player was enamoured about Pagan and his methods. I've heard Adam Simpson describe some of his "coaching" in less than glowing terms and Corey McKernan was not a fan either - he left to come to us, and checked out again when Pagan came across to us. There's two examples straight off the bat. Kouta writes about it in detail in his book. It was 1980s hard ass coaching for a 2000s group that didn't respond to that approach. Some people would call them "soft", others would say they were independent enough to not unthinkingly swallow abuse and BS. Pagan was the kind of coach you played to spite, not to because he was your mate.
I'm 2 pages behind, so sorry if this has been mentioned... Pagan and Malthouse had long stints at their previous clubs, the entire list was "theirs" so players either bought in or withered and died. When you transplant those "old" coaches to a new environment, straight away you get 40 guys saying to themselves "he cant talk to me like that, Ive played my whole career here and hes been here 5 mins "
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: northernblue on July 08, 2025, 04:42:23 pm
Special thanks to RR for his thoughts
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 08, 2025, 05:03:48 pm
Not every North player was enamoured about Pagan and his methods. I've heard Adam Simpson describe some of his "coaching" in less than glowing terms and Corey McKernan was not a fan either - he left to come to us, and checked out again when Pagan came across to us. There's two examples straight off the bat. Kouta writes about it in detail in his book. It was 1980s hard ass coaching for a 2000s group that didn't respond to that approach. Some people would call them "soft", others would say they were independent enough to not unthinkingly swallow abuse and BS. Pagan was the kind of coach you played to spite, not to because he was your mate.
I'm 2 pages behind, so sorry if this has been mentioned... Pagan and Malthouse had long stints at their previous clubs, the entire list was "theirs" so players either bought in or withered and died. When you transplant those "old" coaches to a new environment, straight away you get 40 guys saying to themselves "he cant talk to me like that, Ive played my whole career here and hes been here 5 mins "
I think that was probably the case with Pagan. We were in something of a transition period, with many of our players from a successful time under Parkin and to some extent Brittain nearing the end of their careers. The younger group from that mid 1990 era had experienced a pretty successful time. They'd also been mentored by a very talented older group. There seemed to have been a strong connection to Brittain and the injury riddled 2002 season probably came as a bit of unexpected shock to everyone
So when the poor finish and the upheavel came at the end of the year and as older players started to depart rather quickly in the following period to be replaced by a bit of a foreign legion it would have been a pretty unsettled environment. Into that mix throw a "my way, or the highway coach" like Pagan and it's not hard to understand the resentment.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 08, 2025, 05:16:56 pm
Lets not forget Pagan arrived and then we were decimated by the salary cap breaches leaving us with our asses bare. He was still a rude, kent of a man and was happy to see the back of him in the end, not happy about the way the players orchestrated his removal though.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 08, 2025, 05:30:24 pm
Marshall isn't as flashy but he's a reliable footballer - exactly what we need right now. Don't know how we'd wangle it though.
He wont stay when Tom arrives so he'll want out, only question is whether he'd entertain us or wants to go to Sth Australia. If he's interested, should be too hard to satisfy him.
Geelong...
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 08, 2025, 05:33:30 pm
Well he is currently playing like he doesn't give a F so he's getting some practise in early.
Toms money straight to Rohan. Done.
Cam Twomey mentioned that scenario of Marshall being offered around 900k by us which would be a tidy sum more than he gets at the Saints. Would he want to come though if Premierships are a priority, Twomey also mentioned Geelong as a possible new home.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Professer E on July 08, 2025, 06:06:32 pm
Twomey is another of the Carlton hating SEN cadre, take his information with a grain of salt. But Cats are looking for a ruck and don't have a salary cap to worry about....
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Professer E on July 08, 2025, 06:11:42 pm
If we don't get Marshall there's some really good ruck/forwards in this year's draft. Plus Skull shows promise. We'll be ok.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: RiverRat on July 08, 2025, 06:28:23 pm
Id be dropping TDK and Charlie Curnow this week, the former has checked out and has been poor the past few weeks and Charlie hasnt kicked a goal for three weeks and been half arsed and ultra casual about his work and Id have both in the VFL team for a couple of weeks to think about their responsibilities to the team. If they want to sulk about it they can stay in the ressies, and in Charlies case Id put him up for trade if he wouldnt change his attitude. Voss has been reticent to drop big names probably because his job is on the line and he fears losing their support but I think if we had done it earlier on we might have sent a stronger message on how the club will be operating for the rest of the season and that when he said get used to being comfortable about being uncomfortable he meant it.
He was often maligned but one of the players who left us to go to another club who I really admire was Bryce Gibbs. He tried 'unsuccessfully' to head to Adelaide at the end of the 2016 season but deal couldn't be done. He didn't sook about it. He came back in 2017 and put his head down and played some really good football, statistically one of his best seasons (43 disposals and 10 tackles in one game) He knew he would try again for the move at the end of the year but still gave us good efforts. Tom looks likely to go. The least we can expect is that he plays in a similar fashion right up until the end.
For every shining example like this one of Gibbs, there is an alternative one. Remember Lachie Henderson? He put in such little effort that we were forced to drop him and never play him again. He found form/motivation when he went to the cats though.
TBH, i'm not sure if TDK is showing a lack of effort etc. I think thats just him. It has always been him. His best is good. His worst is terrible and you never know what you are going to get out of him. Year on year he has become a little bit better and little bit more consistent, but he simply is not 'their' yet. The money being offered is for potential (still) rather than current output.
When he did his last contract i said there was no way he was deserving of the figures being bandied around (i think 1 mil at the time). I think the same now. He is not worth those figures.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: kruddler on July 08, 2025, 06:48:02 pm
Well he is currently playing like he doesn't give a F so he's getting some practise in early.
Toms money straight to Rohan. Done.
Exactly, gonna be an interesting Ruckmen Merry Go Round at the end of the year. Cameron would be the one I'd really want.
Cameron is too old and would hate to go from their culture to us IMO.
Marshall would be a great get - his tap work and work at ground level is exactly what we need. As TDK best work is when he is the sole ruck, they cant have Marshall in their long term plans unless they will play him as a forward but that seems unlikely. He would have a point to prove and if the offer is good he may be tempted but being contracted old mate SOS will 100% want the farm in return.
While Pit gives effort he's a old school slow lumbering ruck man which we cant have as our main option if we want to improve especially with the one paced midfield we currently have.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 08, 2025, 07:50:51 pm
Exactly, gonna be an interesting Ruckmen Merry Go Round at the end of the year. Cameron would be the one I'd really want.
Cameron is too old and would hate to go from their culture to us IMO.
Marshall would be a great get - his tap work and work at ground level is exactly what we need. As TDK best work is when he is the sole ruck, they cant have Marshall in their long term plans unless they will play him as a forward but that seems unlikely. He would have a point to prove and if the offer is good he may be tempted but being contracted old mate SOS will 100% want the farm in return.
While Pit gives effort he's a old school slow lumbering ruck man which we cant have as our main option if we want to improve especially with the one paced midfield we currently have.
Marshall gets a lot of the ball and would be the ideal replacement to take over the duties of TDK whose major benefit to us is his work as a defacto midfielder who can win clearances and provide drive from stoppages. The only problem I see is he is contracted for two more years and Im sure the price would be our compo pick with maybe a late pick back..
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: crashlander on July 08, 2025, 10:02:54 pm
Looking at our injury list today, I note that Newman is now listed as for the season. I find that disappointing, considering the effort he's put into try to get something out of this season. However, with Saad no certainty, we will probably be playing our youngsters across half back in the weeks to come. Maybe even Charleson will get a game soon. Certainly, Matt Carroll, Lachie Cowan, Ollie Hollands and Billy Wilson be options for this week.
Silvagni will probably miss another week, so Harry O'Farrell is probably going to be required as 2nd tall defender. Certainly, it will be 3 or 4 weeks before Lewis Young will be able to fill that role.
I am please that Zac Williams will be fit to play; he was probably our best player last week until he got hurt. I hope we will play him in a similar role, as that was effective. Skull will also be available, although he will probably come back via the VFL.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 08, 2025, 10:10:54 pm
Cameron is too old and would hate to go from their culture to us IMO.
Marshall would be a great get - his tap work and work at ground level is exactly what we need. As TDK best work is when he is the sole ruck, they cant have Marshall in their long term plans unless they will play him as a forward but that seems unlikely. He would have a point to prove and if the offer is good he may be tempted but being contracted old mate SOS will 100% want the farm in return.
While Pit gives effort he's a old school slow lumbering ruck man which we cant have as our main option if we want to improve especially with the one paced midfield we currently have.
Marshall gets a lot of the ball and would be the ideal replacement to take over the duties of TDK whose major benefit to us is his work as a defacto midfielder who can win clearances and provide drive from stoppages. The only problem I see is he is contracted for two more years and Im sure the price would be our compo pick with maybe a late pick back..
Given that compo pick could blow out a bit I reckon it's not a bad price to pay for a proven player as opposed to a speculative one.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: madbluboy on July 09, 2025, 07:48:09 am
Marshall and Cameron are the same age.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: kruddler on July 09, 2025, 09:11:25 am
People don't seem to realise that Marshall will be 30 by the end of the year. All of these replacement rucks are at that age. I'm not swapping a first round pick for any 30 yo. We have Pittonet in that bracket and swapping him out for another ruck is not going to give us a '1st rounder value' of output upgrade in that position. If we are giving away first rounders, i'd much rather do it on another position.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 09, 2025, 09:29:58 am
People don't seem to realise that Marshall will be 30 by the end of the year. All of these replacement rucks are at that age. I'm not swapping a first round pick for any 30 yo. We have Pittonet in that bracket and swapping him out for another ruck is not going to give us a '1st rounder value' of output upgrade in that position. If we are giving away first rounders, i'd much rather do it on another position.
You're right Given his age, I've changed my mind. Our best option may be to go with Pittonet and HOK for next year and pick up Flynn Riley in the draft for development (before someone else gets him)
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: shawny on July 09, 2025, 09:34:13 am
He was often maligned but one of the players who left us to go to another club who I really admire was Bryce Gibbs. He tried 'unsuccessfully' to head to Adelaide at the end of the 2016 season but deal couldn't be done. He didn't sook about it. He came back in 2017 and put his head down and played some really good football, statistically one of his best seasons (43 disposals and 10 tackles in one game) He knew he would try again for the move at the end of the year but still gave us good efforts. Tom looks likely to go. The least we can expect is that he plays in a similar fashion right up until the end.
For every shining example like this one of Gibbs, there is an alternative one. Remember Lachie Henderson? He put in such little effort that we were forced to drop him and never play him again. He found form/motivation when he went to the cats though.
TBH, i'm not sure if TDK is showing a lack of effort etc. I think thats just him. It has always been him. His best is good. His worst is terrible and you never know what you are going to get out of him. Year on year he has become a little bit better and little bit more consistent, but he simply is not 'their' yet. The money being offered is for potential (still) rather than current output.
When he did his last contract i said there was no way he was deserving of the figures being bandied around (i think 1 mil at the time). I think the same now. He is not worth those figures.
Agree totally that 1.7M is overs but lets not be clouded by his last few months. He has a lot mates in the bracket of underperforming.
If we are going off what we are seeing now Charlie and Cripps would be on 450K
Wouldnt be surprised if Saints have warned him the 1.7M tag is provided hes body is 100% hence why his output is down - maybe he's afraid of the cost of a major injury as it could be life changing finically. Who knows?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: shawny on July 09, 2025, 09:44:41 am
I know we can be a bit ageist on here, but Jeremy Howe turned 35 recently. Sidebottom is also in that bracket as is Pendles.
Dont poo poo a 30 something year old. Nick Haynes has been in our best players this year after a very shaky start.
Yeah decent point. Players seem to be playing well into their 30s these days.
Maybe our rebuild is not needed - just need to wait for the list to hit mid 30s before it fires a shot! That was a joke.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 09, 2025, 09:52:36 am
The Collingwood trio are exceptional players, coached by the most innovative coach in the comp who has managed his older troops with precision. We don't have any of that capability at our club and can't get the simple stuff right.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on July 09, 2025, 10:17:58 am
The Collingwood trio are exceptional players, coached by the most innovative coach in the comp who has managed his older troops with precision. We don't have any of that capability at our club and can't get the simple stuff right.
OK, how about old man Goldstein at Essendon then?
He isnt tripping the light fantastic, but hes been a solid contributer. Carlton dont rate solid contributer hight enough IMHO, and Jeremy Howe in particular is not someone who has an injury free history, and when I think of him is highlight of intercept marking being in his game.
As for the innovative coach, how did they go in finals of 2024? Given they won the flag in 2023, and then bombed out completely, and now stand above everyone, why did he get 2024 so wrong?
You are 3 key players away from being an also ran in any one season.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: madbluboy on July 09, 2025, 10:25:12 am
The Collingwood trio are exceptional players, coached by the most innovative coach in the comp who has managed his older troops with precision. We don't have any of that capability at our club and can't get the simple stuff right.
OK, how about old man Goldstein at Essendon then?
He isnt tripping the light fantastic, but hes been a solid contributer. Carlton dont rate solid contributer hight enough IMHO, and Jeremy Howe in particular is not someone who has an injury free history, and when I think of him is highlight of intercept marking being in his game.
As for the innovative coach, how did they go in finals of 2024? Given they won the flag in 2023, and then bombed out completely, and now stand above everyone, why did he get 2024 so wrong?
You are 3 key players away from being an also ran in any one season.
They did miss out in 2024 but still won 13 games and re equipped their list to go again this season and going against the grain by fielding that trio of very senior players. I'd suggest there is a fair difference in terms of quality output from the Pies trio to Goldstein. If you want a better comparison try Jack Martin at Geelong, playing off a half back flank as a rebounder and getting 20 plus possessions...we couldnt get him on the park and as for playing as a half back he might have lasted 10 mins with us in that role. The top clubs get most things right and the rest struggle to get the simple stuff correct. Pendlebury actually ran away from Cripps in the recent match and made our bloke look closer to 40. We might be doing Cripps a favour if he can get to another club and extend his career, same with Walsh.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on July 09, 2025, 11:01:26 am
^^Ergo, age isnt the issue which is my main contention.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: pinot on July 09, 2025, 11:27:53 am
^^Ergo, age isnt the issue which is my main contention.
Good players can play into their mid 30s People calling Doc to retire....I don't agree with it. He is a natural footballer that is out of form - probably not top 15 on the list but is top 25-30. If his body allows him to run, jump and crack into contests he should play on. If not then he needs to call it a day.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 09, 2025, 11:28:10 am
I think the take away from all this is that players need to be judged individually because there are a number of factors at play.
One 30 year old may be done and dusted, another in their prime. Genetics is one factor-Size and shape, how well they age. Injury impact and recovery is another. The way they play and the position they play can also impact on a players longevity...espcially if they play a physical bash and crash style like Cripps.
You really can't tell, because it's a fact that we all age differently. It's probably also a fact that once you hit 30 you're closer to the end of your career than the beginning. With that in mind, if there is no a great deal between two players-one aged 25 the other 30 you'll go with the younger player because you'll get more time with him.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: madbluboy on July 09, 2025, 12:11:54 pm
TDK's form has completely crashed since the North Melbourne match against Tristan Xerri. He was completely decimated and lost all confidence since.
He was pretty sore after hitting fence. Probably should have rested him and played Pittonet. Back your depth like good sides do. There wouldn't be many 2nd rucks better than Pittonet.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 09, 2025, 12:24:09 pm
We are a club prepared to play injured players and have a poor medical record in looking after players ditto at Essendon. Collingwood, Geelong imo are better equipped to look after older players and take the gamble .
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on July 09, 2025, 12:50:09 pm
The reality: Age 31 at Carlton, and there would be numerous calls to delist him, and trade him "whilst he still has currency".
Not new for "billy" hes missed a lot of footy with hamstrings and foot issues.
Quote
The only thing I know about his injury is that he was coming off for a couple of weeks midway through a second quarter and couldn’t feel his foot,” Buckley said on SEN.
“He’d take his boot off and it (his foot) was black. That’s a concern, you know something’s not right. They were able to find the vascular issue, which is basically blood flow into and out of his foot.”
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: kruddler on July 09, 2025, 01:41:10 pm
There is a difference between playing 30yo's and trading 1st round picks for them.
Nobody is saying Marshall is going to a retirement home next year, but surely people can see that his longevity compared to what else that same 1st round pick can get you elsewhere is severly different.
Let TDK walk. Use Pittonet for a year with HOK as backup. Maybe add Riley in the off-season. See how that goes for the year and if required, get a free agent ruck in next year.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Micky0 on July 09, 2025, 01:54:42 pm
TDK would’ve signed by now if he was staying. We are not in finals contention. Why would he not be dropped for rhe remainder of the season? What are the pros and cons.
Personally I feel affronted that we put time into him and even gave his mum even a little platform With McKays mum etc - and now he’s leaving, absolutely his prerogative to chase $500k more over 7 years but I just think he’s done so let’s move on now with others.
Also is $500k x 7 years really worth leaving Carlton? I could understand if Sts were a finals bound club but they’re not - maybe they have the young talent that’ll come thru with him…
Anyway it’s been a poor year and I’m looking forward to sorting out this crape and getting on with playing and winning footy games again!
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Baggers on July 09, 2025, 01:59:13 pm
Looking forward to tomorrow night's game. Who knows, it might be the beginning of a new dawn - how's that for optimism! Better than sinking into a pointless pit of despair over 36 blokes kicking a bag of air around a paddock... Reductionism to the rescue! ;D
I do not think it is a fait accompli. Maybe all the errors of the past, which culminated in the current unmitigated disaster, have finally been confronted with authenticity, cold objectivity and courage, and the players will take the field emboldened. (What was the big Supertramp hit from 1975? Maybe that's me at this moment). ;) ;)
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 09, 2025, 02:20:07 pm
The reality: Age 31 at Carlton, and there would be numerous calls to delist him, and trade him "whilst he still has currency".
Not new for "billy" hes missed a lot of footy with hamstrings and foot issues.
Quote
The only thing I know about his injury is that he was coming off for a couple of weeks midway through a second quarter and couldn’t feel his foot,” Buckley said on SEN.
“He’d take his boot off and it (his foot) was black. That’s a concern, you know something’s not right. They were able to find the vascular issue, which is basically blood flow into and out of his foot.”
Pies fixed Elliott and have been happy to rest and be patient with DeGoey, we would have played them injured and stuffed them completely as would Essendon, Melbourne and all the other dud teams desperate for success and willing to risk top players for the short term.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 09, 2025, 02:21:59 pm
(What was the big Supertramp hit from 1975? Maybe that's me at this moment). ;) ;)
You're nothing but a "Dreamer" Baggers ;) :D
Although , it wouldn't surprise in the least if we showed some dramatic improvement. These are the type of games that often produce the upset. A bit of overconfidence by Brisbane, a better effort and intensity from us...who knows. The more likely scenario will be business as usual...but we can only hope.
The team selections will be particularly interesting and may tell a story, especially around the ruck options
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on July 09, 2025, 02:34:54 pm
There is a difference between playing 30yo's and trading 1st round picks for them.
Nobody is saying Marshall is going to a retirement home next year, but surely people can see that his longevity compared to what else that same 1st round pick can get you elsewhere is severly different.
Let TDK walk. Use Pittonet for a year with HOK as backup. Maybe add Riley in the off-season. See how that goes for the year and if required, get a free agent ruck in next year.
No we are gonna trade them all at 28 because they are busted and we need to get value in the team.
So we are going to trade what we have with value to get value, and then wonder why the club is spiritually bankrupt. :D
The argument rings true on many levels, I wouldn't be trading anything of such high value for an old player either.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: RiverRat on July 09, 2025, 02:35:00 pm
^^Ergo, age isnt the issue which is my main contention.
Good players can play into their mid 30s People calling Doc to retire....I don't agree with it. He is a natural footballer that is out of form - probably not top 15 on the list but is top 25-30. If his body allows him to run, jump and crack into contests he should play on. If not then he needs to call it a day.
I don't think Doc is out of form - although he certainly started the season that way - some of his recent games have had him among our better players.
I just think time and injuries have caught up with him and he has lost (more than) a yard of pace - so much so that he is consistently under pressure when delivering the ball - i.e. the mind is (more than) willing but the body can no longer serve the dinner, other than by way of turnovers or by kicking and hoping, rather than to advantage.
Having said that, I would be happy to see him stay on the list as long as he can justify his place in the team.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Adelaideblue on July 09, 2025, 02:49:13 pm
There is a difference between playing 30yo's and trading 1st round picks for them.
Nobody is saying Marshall is going to a retirement home next year, but surely people can see that his longevity compared to what else that same 1st round pick can get you elsewhere is severly different.
Let TDK walk. Use Pittonet for a year with HOK as backup. Maybe add Riley in the off-season. See how that goes for the year and if required, get a free agent ruck in next year.
Yep agree let's not part with a young star (sometimes) ruckman and replace with an older lesser version. Let Krooz. continue the good work he appears to be doing developing young rucks such as O'Keef and Riley.
Ab
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: madbluboy on July 09, 2025, 03:12:44 pm
Acres dropped apparently
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 09, 2025, 03:35:35 pm
One has to legitimately wonder if there exists a Guinness World Records entry for lost players. The number of Carlton coaches that seem to "lose the players" is staggering, not only for the frequency with which it it occurs, but the brief time period between occurrences. Every few years, we hear about losing the players. Pagan, Malthouse, Teague, Bolton, now Voss. They don't seem to get lost at other clubs.
3 of them had/have genuinely lost them, and yes, we do hold the world record for that....lol.
After listening to the Lachie Henderson i'm not inclined to blame Malthouse. The whole place, he said, was toxic, and they way players were treated was something awful, and he wasn't talking about Mick. Said he couldn't wait to get out of the place. Pagan, did lose them badly, the game just flew past him and he couldn't adapt, but, he also made mention about how toxic the place was when he was there. Real toxic. Teague didn't lose them but performances just dribbled off. Only lost by more than 5 goals twice during his reign. There was alot coming out about issues in the club in the media when his term was coming to his end. While Bolton lost them badly i'm guessing it was pretty toxic then too. Ratts was still probably the most successful given he got us to 3 successive finals series after and highly improved 2008. Maybe we looked after our own more given it was Ratts. 2012 was starting to look like the Carlton we currently know though. Liked to have seen though if it was just a bad year, like Richmong in 2016, or just what we've regularly seen since 2001.
A combination of a bad club, as you once said, a couple of bad coaching appointments combined with a culture that has tended to stink. We have had 5 coaching changes and god knows how many list overhauls since 2001 for not alot of change. So that says alot about the club itself. This current lot needs it's light bulb moment before they find their careers wasted by achieving nothing.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: laj on July 09, 2025, 04:02:14 pm
TDK would’ve signed by now if he was staying. We are not in finals contention. Why would he not be dropped for rhe remainder of the season? What are the pros and cons.
Personally I feel affronted that we put time into him and even gave his mum even a little platform With McKays mum etc - and now he’s leaving, absolutely his prerogative to chase $500k more over 7 years but I just think he’s done so let’s move on now with others.
Also is $500k x 7 years really worth leaving Carlton? I could understand if Sts were a finals bound club but they’re not - maybe they have the young talent that’ll come thru with him…
Anyway it’s been a poor year and I’m looking forward to sorting out this crape and getting on with playing and winning footy games again!
Multiplied outand that is 3.5 million. Alot! Plus, I don't want to be paying 1.2 million to keep him. He's good but certainly not close to that good.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 09, 2025, 04:16:58 pm
If the players have even a morsel of respect for Vossy, they will do the job for him tomorrow night.
Dont expect them to win given we dont have much to play for but just compete for 4 quarters and dont give up and embarrass the club. Hopefully Brisbane think its just a holiday to Melbourne and havent put much preparation in and are as half ar$ed as we usually are. Unfortunately I dont think even a miracle win will change much and the wheels of change are in motion.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Baggers on July 09, 2025, 05:27:43 pm
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on July 09, 2025, 06:42:23 pm
Hard to know what to make of the Acres decision. Certainly has been in poor form, like most of his team mates, but his effort and work rate is huge.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Baggers on July 09, 2025, 06:43:40 pm
I just do not get the fixation with Durdin. Another Vossy fave? The kid can tackle... the end.
And, FFS, start Flynn Young.
Hopefully Cinc lines up on C Cameron. And Motlop stays deep in the forward line.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Blue Moon on July 09, 2025, 06:45:33 pm
Not much point playing well in the VFL if you are not going to get a go in an underperforming AFL side. When do they work out doing the same thing, and playing the same players, week in week out is unlikely to change the result. Cerra, TDK, Docherty, Fantasia, McGovern and Fogarty, are all lucky to be in the side.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 09, 2025, 06:55:02 pm
Just looking at the selections it looks a bit like they're letting this one go through to the keeper. I think we might see a few debuts against Melbourne next week.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: laj on July 09, 2025, 07:10:53 pm
They could have made change after change after change but no.
Maybe they don't want to ruin the chances of the twos by putting the seniors in there not trying....lol.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Professer E on July 09, 2025, 08:12:25 pm
Fogarty would want to get a kick this week
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Adelaideblue on July 09, 2025, 08:53:52 pm
With a forward line of Motlop - Moir (FF) - Fantasia, the ball might need to be kicked in at a slightly lower trajectory than usual ! Ab
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: crashlander on July 09, 2025, 08:59:10 pm
Our line-up: B: 39 Alex Cincotta 23 Jacob Weitering 4 Oliver Hollands HB: 2 Lachlan Cowan 26 Nick Haynes 15 Sam Docherty C: 32 Matthew Carroll 9 Patrick Cripps 6 Zac Williams HF: 11 Mitch McGovern 30 Charlie Curnow 8 Lachie Fogarty F: 3 Jesse Motlop 43 Ashton Moir 14 Orazio Fantasia R: 12 Tom De Koning 5 Adam Cerra 29 George Hewett Int: 27 Marc Pittonet 45 Flynn Young 36 Cooper Lord 22 Harry O'Farrell 19 Corey Durdin
Em: 13 Blake Acres 44 Francis Evans 31 Harry Lemmey
My comments: [1] Acres needs a rest; he has struggled all year with injury and form. I wouldn't have dropped him, I'd have him sent off to get fixed, properly, so he can start pre-season in decent shape. He is so important to us that we can't afford then output we've had from this year. Get him right! [2] I understand Evans missing out, but Fogarty and Fantasia must be thinking their lucky stars. They really need to stand up tomorrow night after their ordinary efforts of late. Nor are they alone: Tom de Koning is going through one of the worst periods in his career and really needs to step up. [3] I note that McInerney is in for Brisbane; he has played dominant football against us recently, giving his mids first use of the ball. Neither Tom nor Pitto have been able to beat him, although both have had good quarters or halves. Fort isn't in McInerney's class; if he does most of the rucking, that is a good thing for us. [4] Charlie: he hasn't kicked a goal in 3 weeks and really needs to stand up. For that matter, we need someone to keep Harris Andrews out of the game. If we allow him just to zone off and pick up marks, we're toast. [5] I note with interest that Lemmey is named as one of our Emergencies. Not quite sure what that means, but it may indicate that he isn't far away from getting a game.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 09, 2025, 09:06:24 pm
A rampaging Brisbane at Marvel, I give us no chance. As long as we crack in and tackle hard for 4 qtrs and dont get blown away, I'll be happy. I dont want to see our customary qtr of nothingness where we lose the game in 20-30 mins. Hopefully our leaders can show some kent and lift like Vossy did when he played.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Professer E on July 09, 2025, 09:29:06 pm
What a crazy side, how many small forwards and one marking forward in Charlie. Surely one of the smaller types is going to miss for Lemmy? How is that side supposed to kick a score?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on July 09, 2025, 10:01:21 pm
Im not sure what people are expecting.
I know everyone wants to drop senior players, but what exactly are you wanting to see from selection?
Actually do it. Write the team down. Show me your thoughts.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Adelaideblue on July 09, 2025, 10:12:34 pm
Leave out one of the smalls and play Harry Lemmey. He should attract one of their tall's away from Charlie C. Hopefully Lemeny will lead up the ground and when not in a position to mark, contest!
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on July 09, 2025, 10:16:58 pm
Leave out one of the smalls and play Harry Lemmey. He should attract one of their tall's away from Charlie C. Hopefully Lemeny will lead up the ground and when not in a position to mark, contest!
he doesnt really lead. He's an older school foull forward.
No forward pressure, leading is optional. In fact, id argue he relys on an undersized opponent and perfect delivery (which he won't get) to get involved. Statistically he was inferior to Denver Grainger-barras in the vfl last week. Having watched lemmey his endearing quality is finishing.
It comes across as change for changes sake and labelling the MC a joke as a result. Its not really fair. They pick him and he gets smashed we'll have killed the kids confidence.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: pertz on July 09, 2025, 10:46:16 pm
Id be dropping TDK and Charlie Curnow this week, the former has checked out and has been poor the past few weeks and Charlie hasnt kicked a goal for three weeks and been half arsed and ultra casual about his work and Id have both in the VFL team for a couple of weeks to think about their responsibilities to the team. If they want to sulk about it they can stay in the ressies, and in Charlies case Id put him up for trade if he wouldnt change his attitude. Voss has been reticent to drop big names probably because his job is on the line and he fears losing their support but I think if we had done it earlier on we might have sent a stronger message on how the club will be operating for the rest of the season and that when he said get used to being comfortable about being uncomfortable he meant it.
He was often maligned but one of the players who left us to go to another club who I really admire was Bryce Gibbs. He tried 'unsuccessfully' to head to Adelaide at the end of the 2016 season but deal couldn't be done. He didn't sook about it. He came back in 2017 and put his head down and played some really good football, statistically one of his best seasons (43 disposals and 10 tackles in one game) He knew he would try again for the move at the end of the year but still gave us good efforts. Tom looks likely to go. The least we can expect is that he plays in a similar fashion right up until the end.
I'm not sure Bryce Gibbs is a great example Lods. True he did have a few great games here and there but he seemed to pick and choose when he wanted to play well. A good mate of mine used to call him the sheep dog, because he was always on the outside of the pack.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 09, 2025, 11:01:28 pm
He was often maligned but one of the players who left us to go to another club who I really admire was Bryce Gibbs. He tried 'unsuccessfully' to head to Adelaide at the end of the 2016 season but deal couldn't be done. He didn't sook about it. He came back in 2017 and put his head down and played some really good football, statistically one of his best seasons (43 disposals and 10 tackles in one game) He knew he would try again for the move at the end of the year but still gave us good efforts. Tom looks likely to go. The least we can expect is that he plays in a similar fashion right up until the end.
I'm not sure Bryce Gibbs is a great example Lods. True he did have a few great games here and there but he seemed to pick and choose when he wanted to play well. A good mate of mine used to call him the sheep dog, because he was always on the outside of the pack.
That may have been the way things were set up given we had Judd and Murphy and later Cripps as our other key midfielders. I remember watching him throwing up in the background after one game while a team-mate was being interviewed. Whether he was ill or not he'd run himself ragged. It was a 34 disposal 3 Brownlow medal vote game against Geelong.
He had his critics for sure. In the very early part of his career he shirked a contest that seemed to stick in the mind of supporters, but all in all he gave us good service. Especially in the final year when he knew he would probably try for Adelaide again.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: RiverRat on July 09, 2025, 11:30:22 pm
Hard to know what to make of the Acres decision. Certainly has been in poor form, like most of his team mates, but his effort and work rate is huge.
I would have said the same up to and including the first 10 minutes of last week's game but, after being really fierce in the contest in those early minutes, I thought he turned up his toes and didn't give much of a contest for the rest of the game.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: townsendcalling on July 10, 2025, 12:55:42 am
What a crazy side, how many small forwards and one marking forward in Charlie. Surely one of the smaller types is going to miss for Lemmy? How is that side supposed to kick a score?
Obviously, for the bulk of the time it will be a Charlie / TDK forward line with Pitto taking most ruck work. Don't mind a bit of chaos into the forward line that brings the ball to ground with the hope that a small forward or two can do their jobs!
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 10, 2025, 06:58:36 am
What a crazy side, how many small forwards and one marking forward in Charlie. Surely one of the smaller types is going to miss for Lemmy? How is that side supposed to kick a score?
Obviously, for the bulk of the time it will be a Charlie / TDK forward line with Pitto taking most ruck work. Don't mind a bit of chaos into the forward line that brings the ball to ground with the hope that a small forward or two can do their jobs!
Chaos is good, low balls inside 50, high looping balls, no good.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Professer E on July 10, 2025, 07:26:48 am
So it's a forward line relying on precise ball delivery but expecting rubbish ball coming in. Given their 5* midfield you'd think a lot of panicky stuff and high shallow bombs will be what Charlie will be working with. So the ball doesn't get to ground in the absence of a CHF somewhere around the 50-60 m arc and with their elite interceptors this could get very ugly.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Adelaideblue on July 10, 2025, 09:18:08 am
Article on AFL site is headed " Charlie's 'staggering' slump"
Yes he is obviously in a form slump, but what forward wouldn't be if most times he went to mark the ball it was kicked on his head and he had 2-3 defenders endeavouring to out muscle him. When Harry McKay was playing he probably took the other's best defender away. We all need to give Charlie some slack, yes makes some dumb decisions, but probably carrying injuries so not peak fitness.. He needs another big forward playing down there to attract a defender away imo. We haven't O'Keeffe at the moment, so coaches "come on down Harry Lemmey".
AB
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 10, 2025, 09:24:07 am
I'd have played Lemmey and he probably wouldn't have got a kick playing on Harris Andrews but he might have learned something and it should be about 2026 now not limiting damage. Same with Ben or Lucas Campo taking on Neale, McCluggage etc, such a good education.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Sexybronco on July 10, 2025, 09:29:46 am
I'd have played Lemmey and he probably wouldn't have got a kick playing on Harris Andrews but he might have learned something and it should be about 2026 now not limiting damage. Same with Ben or Lucas Campo taking on Neale, McCluggage etc, such a good education.
I think once we're mathematically out of the finals race we'll see a flurry of additional debutants in the team, sends the wrong message to be doing it now as it would be a concession that we have given up on 2025 even if our chance of playing finals are incredibly slim.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 10, 2025, 09:35:51 am
I'd have played Lemmey and he probably wouldn't have got a kick playing on Harris Andrews but he might have learned something and it should be about 2026 now not limiting damage. Same with Ben or Lucas Campo taking on Neale, McCluggage etc, such a good education.
I think once we're mathematically out of the finals race we'll see a flurry of additional debutants in the team, sends the wrong message to be doing it now as it would be a concession that we have given up on 2025 even if our chance of playing finals are incredibly slim.
SB..You are probably right and that's the party line theme but I'd be using common sense and forgetting the maths and looking at next season.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: madbluboy on July 10, 2025, 09:54:18 am
I did a ladder predictor with us winning every game and we still miss the 8 on percentage.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on July 10, 2025, 09:56:59 am
No chance we will make finals. Let's be realistic. Stringing together a few wins will in itself be a miracle, with the crape happening at the moment.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Professer E on July 10, 2025, 10:07:35 am
More sensationalist media to pour more fuel on. Don't click on it. All designed to make us give up mentally and emotionally on Charlie, thus buttering us up to trade him for less than true value to the cats or some other ruthless mob.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 10, 2025, 10:12:45 am
More sensationalist media to pour more fuel on. Don't click on it. All designed to make us give up mentally and emotionally on Charlie, thus buttering us up to trade him for less than true value to the cats or some other ruthless mob.
I don't think Charlie and Harry are going anywhere short term but I'd be more concerned about Sam Walsh who will be a RFA next season and has already had interest and according to Cal Twomey is in no hurry to sign any new deal.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ratlice on July 10, 2025, 10:26:35 am
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on July 10, 2025, 11:09:04 am
Its interesting what hype and team form can do.
They gush about Sam Darcy and how good he is. They are pretty scathing on Charlie and his efforts. Aaron Naughton also cops a fair whack from the pundits.
Its probably because they are delivering well below their capability, but the goal tally has Naughton and Curnow in similar territory to Darcy.
Interesting stuff.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: LP on July 10, 2025, 11:17:54 am
Its probably because they are delivering well below their capability, but the goal tally has Naughton and Curnow in similar territory to Darcy.
It's an effect of nepotism, nothing more nothing less.
Just because Luke Darcy is out of the media, at least for the moment, doesn't mean his sphere of influence is diminished.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: LP on July 10, 2025, 11:23:59 am
I'm not surprised Cowan is an in, but I'm a bit surprised Durdin gets a gig.
In my opinion Durdin and Evans both have the same fundamental problem, at AFL level they aren't more agile or pacey than opposition who are 10kg heavier and 10cm taller, this leaves them without a trick. To make use of them we can't have such a predictable game plan, they will never get the same opportunities at the AFL level fall of the ball that they get in VFL, if the opposition know where the ball is going.
In my opinion in the future we should avoid recruiting small forwards who haven't an elite trick. Either they must be bilateral and effectively indistinguishable left or right, have elite pace, elite agility or be elite overhead. If they haven't got one of those four traits they'll never get enough footy at AFL level to have an impact, no matter how hard they try or how good they look at VFL level.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Sexybronco on July 10, 2025, 12:03:10 pm
I think once we're mathematically out of the finals race we'll see a flurry of additional debutants in the team, sends the wrong message to be doing it now as it would be a concession that we have given up on 2025 even if our chance of playing finals are incredibly slim.
SB..You are probably right and that's the party line theme but I'd be using common sense and forgetting the maths and looking at next season.
Can't argue with your logic and the players probably know it deep down, however we can't be see to be giving up on the season (and probably Vossy's future) until it's not a possibility any more.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 10, 2025, 12:24:21 pm
In some respects the best thing that could happen would be for that "statistical possibility" to be done and dusted. Then we'd get a good idea of some of the young ones, and try a few different things. It would put a bit of interest into the season rather than this same ones 'in and out' on a weekly rotation.
Cincotta was always going to play this week after being held over from the VFL game last week. There were probably a few ahead of Durdin in the 'seconds'.
Expect a couple of debuts next week against Melbourne.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Baggers on July 10, 2025, 04:11:20 pm
It's always darkest before the dawn... there's that irrepressible optimist again!I
I do think we're in with a chance this evening, provided:
TDK pulls his finger out. Deliver or FO. We've effectively with him been one down in the past few weeks. Weiters has to roll up the pouting bottom lip, and roll up the sleeves. Doc has to hit targets by hand and foot. Make Durdin the sub... then have no injuries or passengers. Motlop remains deep in the forward line. 'Good McGovern' turns up. Pitto takes his mongrel pills before the game... then shares them with Cerra, Fog & Cripps. Moir steps up and in to senior footy. Martin tears it up for four qtrs and doesn't get injured, and... Team defence shuts down the Brisvegas prime movers.
That'll do for starters.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Professer E on July 10, 2025, 04:21:16 pm
Then I work up to a terrible nightmare, we were playing Brisbane and hadn't scored til 3 quarter time
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: cookie2 on July 10, 2025, 04:36:04 pm
It's always darkest before the dawn... there's that irrepressible optimist again!I
I do think we're in with a chance this evening, provided:
TDK pulls his finger out. Deliver or FO. We've effectively with him been one down in the past few weeks. Weiters has to roll up the pouting bottom lip, and roll up the sleeves. Doc has to hit targets by hand and foot. Make Durdin the sub... then have no injuries or passengers. Motlop remains deep in the forward line. 'Good McGovern' turns up. Pitto takes his mongrel pills before the game... then shares them with Cerra, Fog & Cripps. Moir steps up and in to senior footy. Martin tears it up for four qtrs and doesn't get injured, and... Team defence shuts down the Brisvegas prime movers.
That'll do for starters.
All pigs fully fueled and ready for takeoff!! Sorry Baggers, couldn’t help that one. Hope you’re right 😎
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: northernblue on July 10, 2025, 04:38:03 pm
It's always darkest before the dawn... there's that irrepressible optimist again!I
I do think we're in with a chance this evening, provided:
TDK pulls his finger out. Deliver or FO. We've effectively with him been one down in the past few weeks. Weiters has to roll up the pouting bottom lip, and roll up the sleeves. Doc has to hit targets by hand and foot. Make Durdin the sub... then have no injuries or passengers. Motlop remains deep in the forward line. 'Good McGovern' turns up. Pitto takes his mongrel pills before the game... then shares them with Cerra, Fog & Cripps. Moir steps up and in to senior footy. Martin tears it up for four qtrs and doesn't get injured, and... Team defence shuts down the Brisvegas prime movers.
That'll do for starters.
cut and paste from 2024 Baggers ? :D :D
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: kruddler on July 10, 2025, 04:59:17 pm
To the people complaining about poor Charlie being 1-out, have you guys actually looked at the side?
Key back we have FB: Weitering CHB: Nick Haynes Int: Harry O'Farrell
That's 2 and a backup.
Rucks we have... Pittonet and TDK as backup.
Key forwards we have.... CHF: Charlie.....out of form 3 goals from past 5 weeks FF: Listed as Moir:......which i think will not be the case, but TBH, it would actually work. HFF: McGovern....this is more likely your FF, and he is very much in form compared to Charlie - 9 goals from last 5 weeks ....with TDK down there for periods as well.
I think we are plenty tall enough.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on July 10, 2025, 05:15:45 pm
Martin tears it up for four qtrs and doesn't get injured, and...
Of all those...this one is the most likely to come off :D :D
Martin played well for Geelong off half back in a rebound role🤐 last game and had 25 possessions, seem to be moving fine, said he could have played six weeks ago but appears was held back. Must be that Bellarine fresh air...
Title: Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Baggers on July 10, 2025, 06:17:11 pm