Carlton Supporters Club

I am a little shocked by the fall of Fog, I once considered him one of our more important (role) players, right now he is  "pay out" delist material.  Then again, I also considered him one of our "barometers" and his form matches ours so I guess it tells a story.

Ive not seen a team start a season in such poor physical condition and not build as the season wore on.

Ive also not seen a team do what we have done this season, where the form lines early were pretty poor aside from a handful of players, and rather have the rest build form, we have had more drop out of form as the season has gone on.

Its like the harder they try, the more they stuff it.

Finally, we have not been the same since they tightened the holding the ball interpretation which has resulted in the ultra fast ball movement we are seeing now.  Its opened the game up, but I cant fathom how a guy having one armed held whilst taking posession gets pinged for not being able to get it loose.

But is his best even good enough?

But is his best even good enough?

Cerra sent to tribunal he will get done

What did he do?

I missed it from where I was sitting.  Its a shame, because we are crying out for a player to stand up and fly the flag.  We sighted for football acts, not anything resembling physicality.

Quote from: Thryleon – on July 11, 2025, 09:40:14 am

Ive not seen a team start a season in such poor physical condition and not build as the season wore on.

Ive also not seen a team do what we have done this season, where the form lines early were pretty poor aside from a handful of players, and rather have the rest build form, we have had more drop out of form as the season has gone on.

Its like the harder they try, the more they stuff it.

Finally, we have not been the same since they tightened the holding the ball interpretation which has resulted in the ultra fast ball movement we are seeing now.  Its opened the game up, but I cant fathom how a guy having one armed held whilst taking posession gets pinged for not being able to get it loose.

Weitering's looking a bit worse for the wear...he'd be much more comfortable with players like Silvagni, Newman...even Saad all on deck.

Cerra sent to tribunal he will get done

Okay, the MC and selection...  :-X  :o  >:(

Acres seemed so lacklustre in the VFL game, there was not much spirit from him at all.

Quote from: Micky0 – on July 17, 2025, 09:28:19 pm

Acres seemed so lacklustre in the VFL game, there was not much spirit from him at all.

He's always seemed to me to be a square peg in a round hole. Seems to march to the beat of his own drum, e.g doesnt warm up on ground with his team mates pregame. Something NQR to me.

The only way any of this males sense is if we are trying to do a dodgy and not trigger some players contract bonuses and/or extensions.
Eg if player x plays xx amount of games he gets this amount of money as a bonus or he gets an extra year added to his current contract.

Quote from: kruddler – on July 17, 2025, 11:24:41 pm

The only way any of this males sense is if we are trying to do a dodgy and not trigger some players contract bonuses and/or extensions.
Eg if player x plays xx amount of games he gets this amount of money as a bonus or he gets an extra year added to his current contract.

That would be really 'dodgy', pretty obvious,  and get other players concerned about their own 'triggers'.

I get the feeling a lot of decisions have already been made.
Boyd, Cinncotta, Lemmey, Acres may not attract a lot in terms of trade, very low


picks...but they are 'tradeable'.
Each possess some skills that might see other clubs finding a role for them or believing they can use those attributes and

get a bit more out of them...overlooking any deficiencies or inconsistencies.
No need to expose them further.



Many of the other fringe players who are getting a game might just be being picked as a final "look-see".


Winning is no longer a priority,
Sportsbet have finally conceded we can't win
it and removed us from the premiership betting  :( , but teams may be being picked to
 minimise any losses...no huge blow-outs

But honestly, it's all just guesses.

Quote from: kruddler – on July 17, 2025, 11:24:41 pm

The only way any of this males sense is if we are trying to do a dodgy and not trigger some players contract bonuses and/or extensions.
Eg if player x plays xx amount of games he gets this amount of money as a bonus or he gets an extra year added to his current contract.

That would be really 'dodgy', pretty obvious,  and get other players concerned about their own 'triggers'.

I get the feeling a lot of decisions have already been made.
Boyd, Cinncotta, Lemmey, Acres may not attract a lot in terms of trade, very low picks...but they are 'tradeable'.
Each possess some skills that might see other clubs finding a role for them or believing they can use those attributes and get a bit more out of them...overlooking any deficiencies or inconsistencies.
No need to expose them further.

Many of the other fringe players who are getting a game might just be being picked as a final "look-see".

Winning is no longer a priority,
Sportsbet have finally conceded we can't win it and removed us from the premiership betting  :( , but teams may be being picked to minimise any losses...no huge blow-outs.

But honestly, it's all just guesses.

Why oh why wouldn't we be playing Harry Lemmey?
Even if just to keep a key defender away from Charlie C.  Surely the time  to try Lemmey at AFL level is when Harry McKay is out injured?
Is it time to arrange a members poll?

Ab

Quote from: Adelaideblue – on July 18, 2025, 07:12:09 am

Why oh why wouldn't we be playing Harry Lemmey?
Even if just to keep a key defender away from Charlie C.  Surely the time  to try Lemmey at AFL level is when Harry McKay is out injured?
Is it time to arrange a members poll?

Ab

Watch Essendon last night.  Remember that Liam McMahon>Harry Lemmey (based on performances at VFL level).

McMahon kicked two goals from 5 posessions and one Tackle and one mark.

One of the goals of which was a free that wasn't there. 

Odds are, we will get that performance out of Lemmey, without the not there free kick. 

Quote from: Adelaideblue – on July 18, 2025, 07:12:09 am

Why oh why wouldn't we be playing Harry Lemmey?
Even if just to keep a key defender away from Charlie C.  Surely the time  to try Lemmey at AFL level is when Harry McKay is out injured?
Is it time to arrange a members poll?

Ab

Watch Essendon last night.  Remember that Liam McMahon>Harry Lemmey (based on performances at VFL level).

McMahon kicked two goals from 5 posessions and one Tackle and one mark.

One of the goals of which was a free that wasn't there. 

Odds are, we will get that performance out of Lemmey, without the not there free kick.

I have no problem selecting Lemmey or not selecting him.

I have a problem with the outrage associated with why/why not.

Its clear as the day is long as to why, you just have to have seen him play footy.  I told you that McMahon > Lemmey.

Thats the Greater than symbol in McMahon's direction.

I have no problem selecting Lemmey or not selecting him.

I have a problem with the outrage associated with why/why not.

Its clear as the day is long as to why, you just have to have seen him play footy.  I told you that McMahon > Lemmey.

Thats the Greater than symbol in McMahon's direction.

Quote from: Thryleon – on July 18, 2025, 11:50:44 am

Watch Essendon last night.  Remember that Liam McMahon>Harry Lemmey (based on performances at VFL level).

McMahon kicked two goals from 5 posessions and one Tackle and one mark.

One of the goals of which was a free that wasn't there. 

Odds are, we will get that performance out of Lemmey, without the not there free kick.

....and that will be better than about 6 of the small forwards we are playing in the team who can't kick a goal.

Lemmey is not the type to come in and get 20 touches and kick 10.
However, if he gets 5 touches and kicks 2 goals, i'd take that every week.
2 goals a week is 46 goals for the year.....who cares how many possessions he gets, as long as he hits the scoreboard. Somewhere along the line we forgot the main job of forwards is to kick goals. We are so fixated on team defence, that we tell our forwards that defending is #1 priority and we suffer as a result.

FYI, Curnow has only kicked 27 goals from 16 games.....which is less than 2 goals a game. ;)

Change the forwards all you like it won't make a difference till we fix the delivery.

Sure our conversion rate has also been poor but it's not like Charlie and TDK have been dropping sitters. We are the worst team in the comp at brining the ball inside 50.

Second time I have bumped this from Shakin

"Carlton rank last for kicking efficiency, disposal efficiency, overall kick rating and kick rating for kicks going into the forward 50. They are second worst in kick rating for shots at goal."

Second time I have bumped this from Shakin

"Carlton rank last for kicking efficiency, disposal efficiency, overall kick rating and kick rating for kicks going into the forward 50. They are second worst in kick rating for shots at goal."

2 year anniversary of us equalling the record of 5 consecutive wins by more than 50pts. Those were the days.

Quote from: laj – on July 18, 2025, 04:50:32 pm

2 year anniversary of us equalling the record of 5 consecutive wins by more than 50pts. Those were the days.

God, those were the days! May they come again soon! But we have to learn how to kick first!

Quote from: madbluboy – on July 18, 2025, 04:46:47 pm

Second time I have bumped this from Shakin

"Carlton rank last for kicking efficiency, disposal efficiency, overall kick rating and kick rating for kicks going into the forward 50. They are second worst in kick rating for shots at goal."

Aint no coach been born to fix that. Having said that, I said many years ago we should have poached Choco Williams to coach our AFLW team where he could run his famous kicking classes. Perhaps we need his servicesfor the mens team.

Quote from: Gointocarlton – on July 18, 2025, 05:54:53 pm

Aint no coach been born to fix that. Having said that, I said many years ago we should have poached Choco Williams to coach our AFLW team where he could run his famous kicking classes. Perhaps we need his servicesfor the mens team.

Between the ears, GTC. Players don't lose their abilities, at PP, they do. But all is not lost, it can be reignited but a ruthless confidence will be required... much easier said than done.

Quote from: laj – on July 18, 2025, 04:50:32 pm

2 year anniversary of us equalling the record of 5 consecutive wins by more than 50pts. Those were the days.

God, those were the days! May they come again soon! But we have to learn how to kick first!

Quote from: Baggers – on July 18, 2025, 06:58:56 pm

Between the ears, GTC. Players don't lose their abilities, at PP, they do. But all is not lost, it can be reignited but a ruthless confidence will be required... much easier said than done.

You know Baggers, once upon a time, we were ruthless. Ruthless in our pursuit of premierships. And that ruthless pursuit meant there were expectations, not hope, high exceptions. Those expectations created a culture, a culture where  the players "ran the club" in a way that demanded excellence and the highest of standards. If you weren't up to scratch, you didn't play and didn't last. The list managers and coaches didn't control this, the senior players did. THATS culture. It culminated in a side that virtually coached itself in 1995, the last success we have tasted. Not long after that, there was a deterioration of that culture, the last of "old school" players departed and were replaced by a "new breed". A breed of players who thought because they walked in the doors at PP, they had made it. That was the start of the "entitled" generation. They weren't prepared to work hard, they weren't ruthless. It's that culture that has been handed down for the last few decades and here we are. A group of players that are very happy with themselves and their team mates. They enjoy each others company and the environment which is the Carlton Football Club Bank and Retirement Fund. We accept poor performance after poor performance because they know there are no consequences.
I keep repeating the saying, "to know where you're going you need to know where you've been".  Our players need to learn that culture of ruthlessness in the pursuit of premierships which demanded excellence and the highest of standards from each other. The leaders should be encouraged to push and demand it. Instead when Weiters comes out and offers honest feedback after a poor performance, he gets hauled over the coals for being too honest and forceful. I say more please.

Remember you current players, you are just passing through and are mere custodians and you have a duty to hand it over to the next crop better than what you found it. You need to find a way to "break through to the cycle" as Paulie said and change culture back to what it once was,

Ripper post, GTC!!

I do remember those days, clearly. Started with the ruthless expectations of Barassi in the mid 60s, ended in 2002.

We are old enough to remember players demanding ruthlessness from team mates.

Remember when the players had their Camp Curnow in 2023? What's important about that was it was players only - no coaches. How many games in a row did we not only win, but win big after that! Player driven. Point of this is that we know that they can do it which makes watching the past twelve months even more distressing... And infuriating. Nothing more tragic than watching serious talent and potential being p*ssed down the drain.

Maybe the players should tell the coaches to p*ss off and that they'll select the starting 23 and run the show until the end of the year.

Quote from: Thryleon – on July 18, 2025, 03:21:13 pm

I have no problem selecting Lemmey or not selecting him.

I have a problem with the outrage associated with why/why not.

Its clear as the day is long as to why, you just have to have seen him play footy.  I told you that McMahon > Lemmey.

Thats the Greater than symbol in McMahon's direction.

I get the grade 3 mathematical symbols, thanks.

You've made your stance clear, i get it.

Riddle me this. If his likelyhood of success follows the function y=1/x with x being time (that is, it gets closer to zero the further along you go ;) ) then why does he have a spot on our list?
This year has been by far his best year and its been so much better than previous years. Yes, i've watched him play this year. I have also watched him play years past, which is why i've seen such a big improvement in him this year, so what is the point of having him on a list, if he improves and STILL doesn't get a gig?
Its not like we couldn't find another small forward to put on the list instead of him, as is our way.
He was named as an emergency last week. If he is so far away, why do that??

Honestly, i couldn't give a rats behind if he is on our list next year or not. My issue is our MC fail to do anything remotely progressive and reward good form. Instead, we pick players who had good form, lost it, but now get a game because....why not.
Chances are Lemmey will go goalless for the next 2 weeks, and then get a callup where he will have zero confidence, completely out of form and have zero chance of success....and THAT will be when i say i told you so.

We do the same thing all the time. Ben Campo.....good form....not picked....now can't be picked, but will most likely get a game at the end of the year when he's had no form to speak of.
Last year it was Jaxon Binns. Was in form, lost it, then got a callup.
Year on year its the same. This year, its Lemmey......and to a lesser extent Ben Campo, but at least he's in his first year.

Change the forwards all you like it won't make a difference till we fix the delivery.

Sure our conversion rate has also been poor but it's not like Charlie and TDK have been dropping sitters. We are the worst team in the comp at brining the ball inside 50.

Quote from: kruddler – on July 18, 2025, 04:13:12 pm

I get the grade 3 mathematical symbols, thanks.

You've made your stance clear, i get it.

Riddle me this. If his likelyhood of success follows the function y=1/x with x being time (that is, it gets closer to zero the further along you go ;) ) then why does he have a spot on our list?
This year has been by far his best year and its been so much better than previous years. Yes, i've watched him play this year. I have also watched him play years past, which is why i've seen such a big improvement in him this year, so what is the point of having him on a list, if he improves and STILL doesn't get a gig?
Its not like we couldn't find another small forward to put on the list instead of him, as is our way.
He was named as an emergency last week. If he is so far away, why do that??

Honestly, i couldn't give a rats behind if he is on our list next year or not. My issue is our MC fail to do anything remotely progressive and reward good form. Instead, we pick players who had good form, lost it, but now get a game because....why not.
Chances are Lemmey will go goalless for the next 2 weeks, and then get a callup where he will have zero confidence, completely out of form and have zero chance of success....and THAT will be when i say i told you so.

We do the same thing all the time. Ben Campo.....good form....not picked....now can't be picked, but will most likely get a game at the end of the year when he's had no form to speak of.
Last year it was Jaxon Binns. Was in form, lost it, then got a callup.
Year on year its the same. This year, its Lemmey......and to a lesser extent Ben Campo, but at least he's in his first year.

then how come you missed it the first time?

Again, I'm happy for lemmey to play, I understand why he's not.

In fact the thing you mention about player selection might be the driving reason behind the coach losing his job. 

That being said, I dont see Sam Mitchell dropping James Sicily at the moment, and he has been very so so since he got injured.  Im sure theyve got a young kid in decent form at box hill that could take his spot.

When push comes to shove this is not lemmeys year to shine at Carlton and I dont have the answers, I just know he isnt showing afl level quality in a vfl competition.  Neither was mcmahon. Both have played 1 game respectively.

There's been plenty of players drafted who never fired their shot at afl level.

Quote from: Thryleon – on July 19, 2025, 08:36:15 am

then how come you missed it the first time?

Again, I'm happy for lemmey to play, I understand why he's not.

In fact the thing you mention about player selection might be the driving reason behind the coach losing his job. 

That being said, I dont see Sam Mitchell dropping James Sicily at the moment, and he has been very so so since he got injured.  Im sure theyve got a young kid in decent form at box hill that could take his spot.

When push comes to shove this is not lemmeys year to shine at Carlton and I dont have the answers, I just know he isnt showing afl level quality in a vfl competition.  Neither was mcmahon. Both have played 1 game respectively.

There's been plenty of players drafted who never fired their shot at afl level.

I didn't miss it the first time, just didn't comment on your opinion of the comparison. Given mcmahon is 2 years older, I would expect that to be true. So no point discussing it.

Again, it's not isolated to lemmey, but he highlights a greater issue at th3 club. We fail to rest stars or even average players and play in form kids when the opportunity presents itself.

Last year it was when we were 2nd with no I injuries and daylight behind us. We ran them into the ground and injured them and had nothing to show for it.

This year its while we had plenty of underperfoming / injured stars with very little to play for.....now nothing to play for but are still not giving in form kids a crack.

Look at someone like Geelong. Always introducing inform talented kids and resting about players when the opportunity presents itself.
Why are we so slow to follow this successful path?

People say drop players to set standards and play kids who haven't earned games. 

We've got one who's only endearing attribute is he is tall.  Probably the week he kicked 7 from 10 shots was the week to bring him in.

In any case I see the juxtaposition in both sides and some here are just interested in criticism.  Thats fine.

Quote from: Thryleon – on July 19, 2025, 11:06:37 am

People say drop players to set standards and play kids who haven't earned games. 

We've got one who's only endearing attribute is he is tall.  Probably the week he kicked 7 from 10 shots was the week to bring him in.

In any case I see the juxtaposition in both sides and some here are just interested in criticism.  Thats fine.

I think it's more a case of our position.
The season is gone.
The players would realise this.
The emphasis should change from setting standards to analysis, experimentation, playing the youth or undecideds.... and maybe seeing a few players off for clean-up ops if required.

Winning and losing should no longer reflect on the coaching group.
Those decisions should already have been made, but if not, there should be enough body of work to make a judgement.

For that reason I think it's probably a case of "let's have a better look at those we haven't seen at AFL level."
I suspect if you're not getting a game now then a decision has already been made on your furture.
That doesn't necessarily mean the chop.
It could be you're staying, so there is no rush.

On the other hand fringe players who are getting a game may be the ones they're not sure about and want to give a final opportunity or two to show something.

lods team dynamics are a thing.

If you preach one message all year, do the right things and you get a game and then when the season is gone go a completely different way, what message do you send?

....

Speaking of which one of pittonet or tdk goes out to accommodate lemmey.  Pittonet is probably the closer comparison of the two but with tdk potentially on the way out pittonet is the last one dropped for mine, and for team balance our problem is a lack of run.  Playing lemmey won't improve our lack of run. He also needs good forward entries to get involved. 

Like I said I want to see lemmey at afl level.  Im not sure how its going to go given how many fringe players we need to make a decision on in a game that is going to be heavily contested.

Charlie hasn't kicked a goal for 4 weeks, if form is the only factor why isn't he in in the twos or Lemmey in the team to help free him up. Selection is always a mystery at Carlton and favourites exist, until we get rid of this class system where some players are automatics regardless of form
we will continue to struggle.
Elite players can get elite treatment only if they perform and the MC need to show who is boss and not pamper these so called elite with free games.

The footy gods are helping out: Corey Durdin named as the sub. (nothing personal, CD).

So, how much are we going to win by... ::)

Charlie hasn't kicked a goal for 4 weeks, if form is the only factor why isn't he in in the twos or Lemmey in the team to help free him up. Selection is always a mystery at Carlton and favourites exist, until we get rid of this class system where some players are automatics regardless of form  we will continue to struggle.
Elite players can get elite treatment only if they perform and the MC need to show who is boss and not pamper these so called elite with free games.

I view "gifting games" as "development" when you are selecting young players and at a time in the season where there is nothing to play for except the next season. eg Moir has been a banana in the twos and done SFA for most of the season and looked miles off senior footy but as we have seen with senior elevation he has shown way more in terms of effort and ability and probably saved his spot on the list.
Surely we dont want to hand Port Adelaide a free KP Forward in Lemmey without seeing what he has to offer?
Playing Lemmey will also have a flow on effect of telling Charlie, Harry and others that if your form and attitude is sub par we wont hesitate to make a change and bring in younger players. You build depth, competition for places and all the players know if they perform consistently they will be rewarded and everyone is equal in that regard.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on July 19, 2025, 01:47:01 pm

I view "gifting games" as "development" when you are selecting young players and at a time in the season where there is nothing to play for except the next season. eg Moir has been a banana in the twos and done SFA for most of the season and looked miles off senior footy but as we have seen with senior elevation he has shown way more in terms of effort and ability and probably saved his spot on the list.
Surely we dont want to hand Port Adelaide a free KP Forward in Lemmey without seeing what he has to offer?
Playing Lemmey will also have a flow on effect of telling Charlie, Harry and others that if your form and attitude is sub par we wont hesitate to make a change and bring in younger players. You build depth, competition for places and all the players know if they perform consistently they will be rewarded and everyone is equal in that regard.

moirs situation was/is not comparable.   He was finding his feet and building.  His last vfl game yielded 2.1 and 17 disposals taking 5 marks and 5 clearances in a narrow win against north.  

To coin a Andrew Russell comment we must be trying to win every game because our lot are too used to losing and cant just turn it on when necessary so flirt with form at our peril.