Carlton Supporters Club

We just don't get enough from our horde of ground level forwards. It's like playing a few men short.   Still don't know why some of them are playing, they don't apply enough pressure on the defenders (Hawks half backs had a picnic), they aren't smart enough to create enough scoring opportunities and they don't get to dangerous places frequently enough.  None of them have tricks, elite pace or create any real fear in defenders...they're all slow, lack football IQ, and very slow to react. There's a lot of ball watching.  If we want to improve, rectifying this component of the side is a must.

I don't think Hawthorn were that special.
You could argue the game was over at quarter time, but that type of performance wont take them too far in finals against good sides.

We were awful in the first and average for the rest of the game, but it wasn't a blow-out.
A good side would have kept the knee on the throat, considering ladder positions could be significantly influenced by percentage at the end of the year.

We're a bit in limbo at the moment.
There remains a fair bit of uncertainty around the list for next year.
I don't think we should dwell too much on individual performances or match results.
We had a good number of our players sitting in the stands watching tonight.
The side that takes the field  Round 1 2026 may be a significantly different side to this one, so keep trying the younger players.
They'll have a few up and down performances as they adjust and learn.

If there are any issues with or between players hopefully they're sorted in the next month or two.
The commentators seemed keen to make a point of the lack of backing up of players or celebration of a good performance. They were right to an extent but I think they overplayed it a fair bit as well.

Quote from: Lods – on July 24, 2025, 11:36:17 pm

I don't think Hawthorn were that special.
You could argue the game was over at quarter time, but that type of performance wont take them too far in finals against good sides.

We were awful in the first and average for the rest of the game, but it wasn't a blow-out.
A good side would have kept the knee on the throat, considering ladder positions could be significantly influenced by percentage at the end of the year.

We're a bit in limbo at the moment.
There remains a fair bit of uncertainty around the list for next year.
I don't think we should dwell too much on individual performances or match results.
We had a good number of our players sitting in the stands watching tonight.
The side that takes the field  Round 1 2026 may be a significantly different side to this one, so keep trying the younger players.
They'll have a few up and down performances as they adjust and learn.

If there are any issues with or between players hopefully they're sorted in the next month or two.
The commentators seemed keen to make a point of the lack of backing up of players or celebration of a good performance. They were right to an extent but I think they overplayed it a fair bit as well.

We made Haw look like Millionaires in that first qtr and part of the second. I wish teams gave us those kinds of leg ropes.
Anyone who tells me players are having a go is absolutely kidding themselves. An inspirational, heart and soul player retires, a leader and colossus of your club reaches 200 games, your coach is coaching for his life and you dish up that tripe? Disgusting.

Fancy letting Docherty get pushed around in his last game.

Nothing is being said in the media about the Dawks tackling technique, in rugby it's banned, they have a small list that is using martial arts type throwing techniques to counter the fact they are smaller and lighter. A judo type throw, which is technically a trip and throw.

Too many of the Dawks are doing this for it to be an accident, it must be coached.

If it's legal let everybody do it, but I think it's a bad look for the game and it risks doing serious harm which is why it is banned in rugby. In the outcome it's not all that much different to the sling tackle, but by keeping the opponent in close the action is not so obvious.

Sorry, I'm not interested in playing nice anymore.  Nice sides are loser sides.  What happened to ruthless?

Then we let them walk through our pathetic arms out tackles

Fancy letting Docherty get pushed around in his last game.

We also need to stop tolerating rubbish performances from players week after week. E.g Saad, Acres, Curnow for weeks, De Koning.

I've been on Saad's case for some time now and after last night, I'm stamping his papers for good, he is a massive liability in defence and has to go.

We keep going down the line because too many of our players know they have average foot skills at best and lack the confidence to try to pinpoint a pass.

There were quite a number of occasions last night where a player coming out of defence with the ball would hesitate, fail to take the option of passing to a player presenting for a pass, and take the soft option of kicking down the line.

Glad Charles silenced the gossipers.

On a positive note we do have some "Emerald Sprouts" in our under 21 contingent.
The thing with young'uns is they have to develop consistency.
That often takes a year or three.
You won't see it every game.
You won't necessarily see it every quarter of a game.
It might be two players 'shining' one week, a different two another week.
Until they've spent some years playing together and develop that 'team' understanding we may not see the best of them.

It wasn't so long ago I was a bit apprehensive about the future and thought we were putting too much emphasis on the present and not planning for the years AC (after Cripps)... and the Four Horsemen of the 2015 draft.
That seems to have changed quite a bit.
We're not looking too bad when these kids get a few years and games under their belt.

Quote from: madbluboy – on July 25, 2025, 08:25:41 am

Fancy letting Docherty get pushed around in his last game.

Yep i saw Newcombe do that and thought they still have the Clarkson mongrel about them. Not even Cripps did anything.

We are so weak mentally and physically its embarrassing.

All week we heard all the Doc talk Cripps crying, Weiters 200 and the ball is bounced and the opposition are 10 times hungrier then us and it as game over at QT.

Says it all really and why major cleanout on all levels is the only option. Sick of the same sh1te year after year.   

On a positive note we do have some "Emerald Sprouts" in our under 21 contingent.
The thing with young'uns is they have to develop consistency.
That often takes a year or three.
You won't see it every game.
You won't necessarily see it every quarter of a game.
It might be two players 'shining' one week, a different two another week.
Until they've spent some years playing together and develop that 'team' understanding we may not see the best of them.

It wasn't so long ago I was a bit apprehensive about the future and thought we were putting too much emphasis on the present and not planning for the years AC (after Cripps)... and the Four Horsemen of the 2015 draft.
That seems to have changed quite a bit.
We're not looking too bad when these kids get a few years and games under their belt.

Does that mean that Austin gets a pass?

Quote from: Lods – on July 25, 2025, 12:24:16 pm

On a positive note we do have some "Emerald Sprouts" in our under 21 contingent.
The thing with young'uns is they have to develop consistency.
That often takes a year or three.
You won't see it every game.
You won't necessarily see it every quarter of a game.
It might be two players 'shining' one week, a different two another week.
Until they've spent some years playing together and develop that 'team' understanding we may not see the best of them.

It wasn't so long ago I was a bit apprehensive about the future and thought we were putting too much emphasis on the present and not planning for the years AC (after Cripps)... and the Four Horsemen of the 2015 draft.
That seems to have changed quite a bit.
We're not looking too bad when these kids get a few years and games under their belt.

I'm very wary of a few things when evaluating our kids.

1. Its their first year and that usually gets them more freedom - eg Hollands dominated his 1st year, went missing a bit in his second.
Is it sustainable or is simply because opposition players don't know what to expect from then yet and can't plan for them. Sample size not big enough.

2. Is there room to grow.
Will White, Matt Carroll, Cooper Lord, Corey Durdin, Flynn Young etc. They are all, somewhat, performing a role that you could consider AFL worthy.....mostly.
However, how much better can they get? What exactly are they good at? What are they elite at? Lord and Carroll look like they belong the most, but i'm still not sold on them long term. At or above expectations now. Will they take another step? Can they??

3. Similar to #2, but with different players.
HOK, HOF and Moir. They all need to put on a bit more size to compete at the level long term. IMO, they all have some attributes that make them elite though.  HOKs speed/agility for his size is rare. HOFs marking is elite. Moir clearly has x-factor. Can they keep this up long term with a bit more size and can they do that while carrying niggles like every other AFL footballer who plays each week?

There are promising signs, absolutely, but its a far cry from having a bunch of AA talent in the works.

as predicted long bombs into f50 and away goes hawks Trouble is not last  night game but the last 2 F>>K>N years thats why it is so disappointing  Voss and Co have failed

Quote from: Baggers – on July 25, 2025, 10:24:16 am

Glad Charles silenced the gossipers.

Only because he was caught out and was told to. He and his management aren't very clever at all.

I can't see how Austin survives unless Lloyd gets the blame for his list management decisions.

Quote from: Gointocarlton – on July 25, 2025, 11:47:57 am

Only because he was caught out and was told to. He and his management aren't very clever at all.

100% correct

Quote from: pertz – on July 25, 2025, 03:54:14 pm

100% correct

how is Charlie at fault for the initial rumour and after categorically retracting he is also at fault for looking to begin with?


Seems very hypocritical when its likely a pretend rumour.

Quote from: kruddler – on July 25, 2025, 02:28:51 pm

I'm very wary of a few things when evaluating our kids.

1. Its their first year and that usually gets them more freedom - eg Hollands dominated his 1st year, went missing a bit in his second.
Is it sustainable or is simply because opposition players don't know what to expect from then yet and can't plan for them. Sample size not big enough.

2. Is there room to grow.
Will White, Matt Carroll, Cooper Lord, Corey Durdin, Flynn Young etc. They are all, somewhat, performing a role that you could consider AFL worthy.....mostly.
However, how much better can they get? What exactly are they good at? What are they elite at? Lord and Carroll look like they belong the most, but i'm still not sold on them long term. At or above expectations now. Will they take another step? Can they??

3. Similar to #2, but with different players.
HOK, HOF and Moir. They all need to put on a bit more size to compete at the level long term. IMO, they all have some attributes that make them elite though.  HOKs speed/agility for his size is rare. HOFs marking is elite. Moir clearly has x-factor. Can they keep this up long term with a bit more size and can they do that while carrying niggles like every other AFL footballer who plays each week?

There are promising signs, absolutely, but its a far cry from having a bunch of AA talent in the works.

They may not all make it.
But it's probably likely that given their age, they all have a bit of improvement ahead of them, and will benefit from time together.

I think when we're looking to do a bit of a cull the focus should now be on the older group rather than the young contingent.

where theres smoke…….

a lot on here also said the TDK would re sign.

The Dawks embraced, wholeheartedly, the role of villains to spoil our party. They came to win. We came to celebrate two champs.

Quote from: Baggers – on July 26, 2025, 08:38:41 am

The Dawks embraced, wholeheartedly, the role of villains to spoil our party. They came to win. We came to celebrate two champs.

Seen that movie before under Clarko.

Quote from: cookie2 – on July 26, 2025, 08:52:13 am

Seen that movie before under Clarko.

Yep. Watching the Midgets and Fluffy Ducks game last night, we saw real toughness and hardness. Kinda amplifies just how nice we are. We're the pin-up club for 'sociable' footy. I still find it so difficult to understand how such a tough and uncompromising player -- Voss -- can preside over such an agreeable playing culture.

Quote from: Baggers – on July 26, 2025, 09:35:00 am

Yep. Watching the Midgets and Fluffy Ducks game last night, we saw real toughness and hardness. Kinda amplifies just how nice we are. We're the pin-up club for 'sociable' footy. I still find it so difficult to understand how such a tough and uncompromising player -- Voss -- can preside over such an agreeable playing culture.

We were just watching a clip of Greene elbowing someone on the ground and getting away with it and said there’s no one in our team that does that type of thing - oh except Boyd! Who they won’t play!

Quote from: Micky0 – on July 26, 2025, 09:52:31 am

We were just watching a clip of Greene elbowing someone on the ground and getting away with it and said there’s no one in our team that does that type of thing - oh except Boyd! Who they won’t play!

McGovern and Newman can and do but like Pauly says there’s a few other priority’s…

Quote from: Baggers – on July 26, 2025, 08:38:41 am

The Dawks embraced, wholeheartedly, the role of villains to spoil our party. They came to win. We came to celebrate two champs.

Seen that movie before under Clarko.

Voss was never dirty as a player just hard at the contest and the man.
The Scott bros, Martin Pike, Mal Michael
Jono Brown took care of the intimidation and protection business.

We were just watching a clip of Greene elbowing someone on the ground and getting away with it and said there’s no one in our team that does that type of thing - oh except Boyd! Who they won’t play!

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on July 26, 2025, 11:51:00 am

Voss was never dirty as a player just hard at the contest and the man.
The Scott bros, Martin Pike, Mal Michael
Jono Brown took care of the intimidation and protection business.

That group was as brutal and ruthless a playing group as I have ever seen. Intimidation factor was off the charts, they had you beat before you even ran out. Best midfield group I have seen also led by Voss Power Black Lappin Aker McRae Ashcroft and cameos by some more than adequate support staff. That midfield hurt by kicking goals also.

Agree....nearly won four premierships in a row and it was brutality with a high level of skill which is probably the best football I have seen from any team ever on such a consistent basis.
Voss was probably one of the best captains I have seen as well and led from the front, it must be hard for him trying to understand why players he coaches cant be at the level he was in terms of consistency and will to win at all costs.

Fancy letting Docherty get pushed around in his last game.

The Dawks embraced, wholeheartedly, the role of villains to spoil our party. They came to win. We came to celebrate two champs.

Quote from: Baggers – on July 26, 2025, 09:35:00 am

Yep. Watching the Midgets and Fluffy Ducks game last night, we saw real toughness and hardness. Kinda amplifies just how nice we are. We're the pin-up club for 'sociable' footy. I still find it so difficult to understand how such a tough and uncompromising player -- Voss -- can preside over such an agreeable playing culture.

We were just watching a clip of Greene elbowing someone on the ground and getting away with it and said there’s no one in our team that does that type of thing - oh except Boyd! Who they won’t play!

Quote from: cookie2 – on July 26, 2025, 08:52:13 am

Seen that movie before under Clarko.

Yep. Watching the Midgets and Fluffy Ducks game last night, we saw real toughness and hardness. Kinda amplifies just how nice we are. We're the pin-up club for 'sociable' footy. I still find it so difficult to understand how such a tough and uncompromising player -- Voss -- can preside over such an agreeable playing culture.

Quote from: Lods – on July 25, 2025, 12:24:16 pm

On a positive note we do have some "Emerald Sprouts" in our under 21 contingent.
The thing with young'uns is they have to develop consistency.
That often takes a year or three.
You won't see it every game.
You won't necessarily see it every quarter of a game.
It might be two players 'shining' one week, a different two another week.
Until they've spent some years playing together and develop that 'team' understanding we may not see the best of them.

It wasn't so long ago I was a bit apprehensive about the future and thought we were putting too much emphasis on the present and not planning for the years AC (after Cripps)... and the Four Horsemen of the 2015 draft.
That seems to have changed quite a bit.
We're not looking too bad when these kids get a few years and games under their belt.

Does that mean that Austin gets a pass?

Quote from: bratblue – on July 25, 2025, 01:01:04 pm

Does that mean that Austin gets a pass?

No, he should be sacked, its not even about the listed players skills, execution abilities etc its about the lack of respect we have from other clubs and the endless nice boy players we have ended up with on the list. Its not about winning contests or being brave hunting the ball its about the lack of spirit and fight as soon as other teams crank up the physical stuff we go to water.
We just dont have any players who can or will fight for the club and fly the flag....thats first base for any team imo that you go out there and win lose or draw you stick together and defend your mates and the club at all cost.
We have this soft image where we play nice and expect other teams to follow suit, they all know we can be got at even the rebuild kiddie teams bully us.Essendon are the same and its a culture we share with them and both clubs when they were at their best in the glory years were feared for how they went about it each week.
Its all has to change and its starts with our recruiting where we need to change our thinking about not only what skills a player brings but also getting players with strong character who wont be bullied or intimidated.
It was just so embarrassing and sad watching Sam Docherty targeted by those muppets at Hawthorn.....

IMO, no amount of stray elbows to opponents' heads and no amount of flying the flag is going to put us back on the winners list. As time passes I become more convinced that we are dealing with head space / off field issues. I don't think it's to do with recruiting. Effectively the same group of players were winning consistently over a 12 months period, playing skillful, tough, accountable football. 12 months out of a 4 year tenure is 25%, and 25% of any sample space is nether insignificant nor a statistical aberration. I wish I knew what was up.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on July 26, 2025, 05:58:26 pm

No, he should be sacked, its not even about the listed players skills, execution abilities etc its about the lack of respect we have from other clubs and the endless nice boy players we have ended up with on the list. Its not about winning contests or being brave hunting the ball its about the lack of spirit and fight as soon as other teams crank up the physical stuff we go to water.
We just dont have any players who can or will fight for the club and fly the flag....thats first base for any team imo that you go out there and win lose or draw you stick together and defend your mates and the club at all cost.
We have this soft image where we play nice and expect other teams to follow suit, they all know we can be got at even the rebuild kiddie teams bully us.Essendon are the same and its a culture we share with them and both clubs when they were at their best in the glory years were feared for how they went about it each week.
Its all has to change and its starts with our recruiting where we need to change our thinking about not only what skills a player brings but also getting players with strong character who wont be bullied or intimidated.
It was just so embarrassing and sad watching Sam Docherty targeted by those muppets at Hawthorn.....

x2
Would love to have seen what Toby Greene would have done to the Haw players when they targetted Doc if TG played for us.
I would kill for a couple like him, I'd even tolerate the fines and suspensions, I'd call it the Carlton Culture Tax.

I think it's the things we don't know that are the major concern.
There's a lot going on with individuals in terms of injury, mental health issues and a fair bit of uncertainty over who will and won't be in a Carlton jumper in 2026.
Add to that the uncertainty regarding Coaching and football department positions, and it's hard to see how it can be a positive, constructive environment to build football success.
But to what extent all those things are playing into performance at the moment is impossible to determine from afar.

It may be the best way to cope is not to get too invested in players and personnel in the next month or two,  and just let it play out.
By the end of September we'll have a bit better idea of what the club will look like in 2026.

Quote from: Gointocarlton – on July 26, 2025, 07:00:42 pm

x2
Would love to have seen what Toby Greene would have done to the Haw players when they targetted Doc if TG played for us.
I would kill for a couple like him, I'd even tolerate the fines and suspensions, I'd call it the Carlton Culture Tax.

Im a fan of Maynard for this reason, even as a kid he had that willingness to mix it with opposition players who messed with him or his teammates and Id like to recruit a similar player.
Toby is great but too valuable to be suspended for silly stuff like with Heeney.
The game has changed and the younger coaches are all wanting that transition game with a touch of niggle and intimidation, Mitchell signalled they were going to be the villains and we seemed oblivious to what they had planned.
Watched the Suns give it to Brisbane too with Ben Long instigating push and shove stuff and upsetting Brisbane, typical Hardwick methodology from his Richmond days. What happened 12-24 months ago is ancient history and the game is going in a different direction while we live in denial and a back to the future approach.

Its almost like the more unfit you are, the harder it is to perform optimally, and the worse decisions you make.

Every single part of the game is based on fitness. Even belief.  You know when you arent 100%. 

My takes on the game:
[1]   Fitness:
We are not fit enough! You have a look at the way the Hawthorn players run, you see that we can’t keep up. They’re willing to run and run and present, which we don’t. We don’t appear able to do so.
As a result, we really need to work on this. I don’t know if you can put all the blame on Innes, but you notice the significant drop off this season. This needs to be addressed ASAP! This needs to be the first thing we address, because, if we're not not fit enough, it doesn't matter how good our game plan is; we won't be able to make it work.

[2]   Tackling:
Granted that we’re not as fit as we need to be, but our tackling really needs work. Too many opposition players break tackles, which lead to goals.
This has really been noticeable in the worst of our losses, and was really obvious on Thursday night.
Not only that, but we also don’t hurt players enough when we tackle. Other teams aim to hurt their opponents, we don’t. We really need to address this.

[3]   Athleticism:
We generally lack that. Look at Hawthorn and a lot of then can run and jump over us. I didn’t like that. It has been clear for some time that we don’t have X-factor. Harry O’Farrell and Ashton Moir are improvements in this area, but we really need more. Speed; we need considerably more of it. We need it to be strength, not a weakness.

[4]   Game Plan:
I don’t think our game plan is as bad as it is made out to be. We have some real positives, especially when it comes to the contested ball that would be useful in finals. We do get Inside 50’s.
That doesn’t mean that our game plan cannot be improved. We need to have a much bigger outside game if we’re going to compete.
We also don’t work hard enough; you see the way the Hawthorn players run off, we don’t do that.
You see the way teams like Hawthorn and, especially, Collingwood set up in the middle, you see where our game needs to improve.

[5]   Disposal:
One of the reasons our disposal is so ordinary is that we run out of gas far too quickly. That we can work on, as the fitter you are, the more likely you will be able to dispose of the ball under pressure.
However, we do have a number of guys who are not that great when it comes to disposal. We need to replace them with guys who can kick well, but we won’t be able to in one foul swoop. We can draft some good kids, but we also need to attract guys with better disposal.

[6]   Decision Making:
Our decision making is not that great, and it is something that a lot of players have issues with. Some of this is coaching, like Cripps doing too much because there isn’t anyone he can get the ball to, or Charlie wheeling and going almost every time. These things can be fixed.
Other things need a lot more work. Again, if we were fitter, we could do what we need to do better, but we need to get our dumber players thinking the right way more often.


Our personnel:
[1]    Nick Haynes:
I know Nick was brought in to give leadership for our younger players, but injuries have forced him to be a permanent feature in our line-up. He intercepts really well and has been a major positive since that first round disaster. But he is physically weak. He gets out-bodied too easily and his tackles often get broken.
I am glad to have had him, but …

[2]   Marc Pittonet:
I admire Pitto, as he always gives his heart and soul, but he is a very limited player who probably won’t be the bull ruck we need to get a premiership. He was really strong and effective before his knee injury, but he has never recovered that strength afterward. He doesn’t take a lot of marks, but he often spoils higher ranked rucks.
What we need is the sort of strong man who gets the ball to the mids first.

[3]    Lachie Fogarty:
Lachie is one of those guys whose talent is probably not up to it. But he has worked hard on his game and has been an effective negative forward. But he doesn’t get enough ball, he doesn’t hurt you when he gets it and he doesn’t have the speed or athleticism to improve significantly. I’d be moving him on.

There are others, but I'll do that later.

I also want to address our spirit, which has been sadly lacking this year, but I'll address this separately.

Quote from: Thryleon – on July 27, 2025, 03:51:30 pm

Its almost like the more unfit you are, the harder it is to perform optimally, and the worse decisions you make.

Every single part of the game is based on fitness. Even belief.  You know when you arent 100%. 

We lack pace and kicking skills...the players we have on the list dont have whats required for the modern transition game.
We beat Melbourne who play the same way as us with the same type of players, it was two outdated teams playing a horrible brand to watch. I agree and get we are carrying players who are injured, sore or who want to leave and have zero interest etc but that more amplifies a problem we already have imho.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on July 27, 2025, 04:05:23 pm

We lack pace and kicking skills...the players we have on the list dont have whats required for the modern transition game.
We beat Melbourne who play the same way as us with the same type of players, it was two outdated teams playing a horrible brand to watch. I agree and get we are carrying players who are injured, sore or who want to leave and have zero interest etc but that more amplifies a problem we already have imho.

Its funny though, they've been fine in first quarters/halves.  Either our opposition are asleep or we are under done.  We've kicked almost 50 points by quarter time on multiple occasions.  Either we're spending our petrol tickets too early, or we just lack 4 quarter efforts.  Tired bodies, tired minds, tired efforts, tired execution.

Im not sure if it isnt just a giant feedback loop, and then the confidence has also suffered.  Of late weve been better late with poorer starts.  It cant be a coincidence.

Mid year next year we will know whats what about us, but IMHO if the game plan isnt working its not by design its by sloppy execution and personnel not really performing to close to their best.

Quote from: Thryleon – on July 27, 2025, 07:48:19 pm

Mid year next year we will know whats what about us, but IMHO if the game plan isnt working its not by design its by sloppy execution and personnel not really performing to close to their best.

The last time our group looked dangerous in all aspects of the game was the second half of 2023... After the players meeting (Camp Curnow), minus coaches, the players obviously took ownership over their destiny themselves and rapid change was achieved. Same players, same skills, some important blokes missing but a very different result for the remainder of the season. The players bought into 'their' game plan.

Sloppy execution to moi is a symptom. And what our sloppy execution is a symptom of is for all those in the footy department to ascertain. Inadequate development? Players not buying in to game plan? Injuries to key personnel? Perplexing MC selections? Square pegs/round holes? Other factors like embarrassing Prez shenanigans, key personnel not committing (TDK) and/or other disruptions behind closed doors that we're not aware of? Probably a mix of all these things.

From the cheap seats, it seems to this little black duck that our dreadful results of the past year are symptomatic of a poorly run football department, in toto.

Quote from: Baggers – on July 28, 2025, 08:49:55 am

The last time our group looked dangerous in all aspects of the game was the second half of 2023... After the players meeting (Camp Curnow), minus coaches, the players obviously took ownership over their destiny themselves and rapid change was achieved. Same players, same skills, some important blokes missing but a very different result for the remainder of the season. The players bought into 'their' game plan.

Sloppy execution to moi is a symptom. And what our sloppy execution is a symptom of is for all those in the footy department to ascertain. Inadequate development? Players not buying in to game plan? Injuries to key personnel? Perplexing MC selections? Square pegs/round holes? Other factors like embarrassing Prez shenanigans, key personnel not committing (TDK) and/or other disruptions behind closed doors that we're not aware of? Probably a mix of all these things.

From the cheap seats, it seems to this little black duck that our dreadful results of the past year are symptomatic of a poorly run football department, in toto.

You didnt rate our wins in round 16 and 17 2024?  What about having scored 8.2 by quarter time in round 18 vs GWS?  The problem vs GWS was copping 14 goals in 2 quarters of footy, but we looked good for that patch.

It wasnt that long ago in football terms.  I think a few people are being too down on our season and forget how good we were until the latter part of 2024.

That's very true.
It was only a year ago we were flag favourites according to some pundits.
That kind of goes against the idea that we don't play a modern or sustainable style.

In fact the high pressure, contest type of football is one that would probably stand up under finals pressure.
The multiple tackles and pressure on the ball and player will cause what we regard as elite opposition skills to disappear.
For a number of reasons we're just not capable of applying that at present,

If I'm being completely honest? I see SFA difference between the way all teams "play", to my eye the ones that are cleaner with the footy and are a bit quicker across the ground are contenders to win the flag.

Yep.
I think we have multiple views of where we're going wrong, and it may be just that...
Not one area,  but multiple areas all coming together in a 'perfect storm'.
Which makes the 'fixing' much harder.

Quote from: Lods – on July 28, 2025, 09:29:59 am

That's very true.
It was only a year ago we were flag favourites according to some pundits.
That kind of goes against the idea that we don't play a modern or sustainable style.

In fact the high pressure, contest type of football is one that would probably stand up under finals pressure.
The multiple tackles and pressure on the ball and player will cause what we regard as elite opposition skills to disappear.
For a number of reasons we're just not capable of applying that at present,

If I'm being completely honest? I see SFA difference between the way all teams "play", to my eye the ones that are cleaner with the footy and are a bit quicker across the ground are contenders to win the flag.
Maybe my eye isnt sophisticated enough to decipher nitty gritty tactics employed but CB set up and clearances all look the same, switching from side to side get a different look at entries seem the same, kick outs seem the same, corridor use when its an option seems the same. It all boiles down to how clean and clever you are with the footy by hand and foot, how you take opportunities in front of goal and how well you tackle (how poorly we do this was evident on Thurs night).

Just on tackling, I mentioned how undervalued and underrated it is at our club, I was listening to Corn and Kingy this morning and they were talking about the Crows and their tackling. There was a grab from Nicks' presser and he said how its been "years of work put in". Corn went on to say how he has heard of numbers coming out of their gym work (ie weight they lift) and its off the charts. Its any wonder they tackle so hard, they break tackles well and bully teams around the ground.

Watch how the Crows play and how we play, we are a mile off their skill level and ability to move the ball, they have recruited well pre season unlike us by bringing in Peatling, Cumming and Neil Bullen all of whom were senior ready, mobile and skillful .
Their tackling is just a byproduct of having better players with a deeper list thats balanced with a blend of youth and experience imho..
They have some of the leagues best kids and have flown under the radar with low profile players like Michelanny, Worrall and Curtain who are that skillful, tall and mobile good kicking type who are able to play multiple positions and have the size to over power smaller players like we have on the list.
Im going to disagree on game style.....Voss is still coaching how he did at Brisbane, the comparisons are so similar and he hasnt evolved into the modern era.
I have posted this before but its just so obvious he hasnt progressed  with his senior coaching and is too rigid with with how he wants us to play.
https://www.lions.com.au/news/774029/voss-game-plan-will-take-time

According to Daniel Hoyne via the Kane Cornes/David King show on SEN 75% of the modern game is about ball movement so if you dont have the wheels and cant execute well by foot you cant compete. Add that to only being able to score from clearance in the main means we are just too limited.
King said "we have to get where the game is at now"......which is what I and a few others have been saying all season.

Quote from: Baggers – on July 28, 2025, 08:49:55 am

The last time our group looked dangerous in all aspects of the game was the second half of 2023... After the players meeting (Camp Curnow), minus coaches, the players obviously took ownership over their destiny themselves and rapid change was achieved. Same players, same skills, some important blokes missing but a very different result for the remainder of the season. The players bought into 'their' game plan.

Sloppy execution to moi is a symptom. And what our sloppy execution is a symptom of is for all those in the footy department to ascertain. Inadequate development? Players not buying in to game plan? Injuries to key personnel? Perplexing MC selections? Square pegs/round holes? Other factors like embarrassing Prez shenanigans, key personnel not committing (TDK) and/or other disruptions behind closed doors that we're not aware of? Probably a mix of all these things.

From the cheap seats, it seems to this little black duck that our dreadful results of the past year are symptomatic of a poorly run football department, in toto.

You didnt rate our wins in round 16 and 17 2024?  What about having scored 8.2 by quarter time in round 18 vs GWS?  The problem vs GWS was copping 14 goals in 2 quarters of footy, but we looked good for that patch.

It wasnt that long ago in football terms.  I think a few people are being too down on our season and forget how good we were until the latter part of 2024.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on July 28, 2025, 05:10:23 pm

According to Daniel Hoyne via the Kane Cornes/David King show on SEN 75% of the modern game is about ball movement so if you dont have the wheels and cant execute well by foot you cant compete. Add that to only being able to score from clearance in the main means we are just too limited.
King said "we have to get where the game is at now"......which is what I and a few others have been saying all season.

Thats fine, but what if we get to where the game isnt?  Will that be better?  Worse?  Or same?

The AFL is one rule tweak away from being an inside contested game again, or perhaps talent dilution will cause it.  I can see it now.  Sorter games, reduced interchange, bigger lists, all of a sudden, how well you move the ball is irrelevant, just as we start playing the modern game.

Perhaps we need to stick to winning the contest, and add a bit of crisper ball movement. 

Agree we are struggling to execute the basic skills of the game. Hard to speculate on why that might be but it's unlikely that our players have been selected for and AFL list without once upon a time being capable of doing that. What is it about our club that causes these skills to desert our players??
Before we can worry too much about tactics or game-plan surely we need to fix our skills execution? Or are these issues intertwined?

According to Daniel Hoyne via the Kane Cornes/David King show on SEN 75% of the modern game is about ball movement so if you dont have the wheels and cant execute well by foot you cant compete. Add that to only being able to score from clearance in the main means we are just too limited.
King said "we have to get where the game is at now"......which is what I and a few others have been saying all season.

We got a lot of frees, but we should have got a lot more. I didn't even see the whole game and I saw so many marks that weren't paid to us and frees that weren't either. As for 50 m penalties, any number of Hawks could stand as close as they liked without being penalized. Amazing!

Quote from: crashlander – on July 24, 2025, 10:23:27 pm

We got a lot of frees, but we should have got a lot more. I didn't even see the whole game and I saw so many marks that weren't paid to us and frees that weren't either. As for 50 m penalties, any number of Hawks could stand as close as they liked without being penalized. Amazing!

Just on the umpires and the free's how does a player with a bloody nose and blood on his arm is allowed to stay on the ground. How? yes the player is a Hawthorn player

Quote from: crashlander – on July 24, 2025, 10:23:27 pm

We got a lot of frees, but we should have got a lot more. I didn't even see the whole game and I saw so many marks that weren't paid to us and frees that weren't either. As for 50 m penalties, any number of Hawks could stand as close as they liked without being penalized. Amazing!

Just on the umpires and the free's how does a player with a bloody nose and blood on his arm is allowed to stay on the ground. How? yes the player is a Hawthorn player

Just showed my favourite piece of vision on FC from the Haw game (4 broken tackles and a goal) and they panned to Vossy on the box saying "Oh come on, come on". Damning for the players involved.

..................., the amount of times we just kick the ball without thought and send it to the opposition gift wrapped shows how little the players care or are thinking about the team and its all about the individual.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on July 28, 2025, 10:47:22 pm

..................., the amount of times we just kick the ball without thought and send it to the opposition gift wrapped shows how little the players care or are thinking about the team and its all about the individual.

In my experience, this happens in a footy club when the whiteants around the club are getting into the the ear of players.

It starts off with the wrong type of people being allowed too much access to the playing group, it raises doubt and breeds discontent, they have people in their ear telling them "it's not their fault", "you deserve better", "you're better than this lot", "they've let you down", the message is always it's somebody else's fault, and that is very damaging to a team dynamic.

Instead of sacrifice, you end up with survival, which is the exact opposite of what a lot of those fringe players need to survive in footy.

Quote from: Gointocarlton – on July 28, 2025, 09:32:22 pm

Just showed my favourite piece of vision on FC from the Haw game (4 broken tackles and a goal) and they panned to Vossy on the box saying "Oh come on, come on". Damning for the players involved.

The lack of effort was pathetic, Acres, Saad and Weitering looked like they couldnt be bothered turning up much less playing.
You cant coach that and Id have dragged them all, I watched some vision from Fox Footy where Acres called for the ball from a kick in then when under pressure just kicked it along the line where we had one player and the Hawks had about five, the amount of times we just kick the ball without thought and send it to the opposition gift wrapped shows how little the players care or are thinking about the team and its all about the individual.