Police minister interview was very stern in condemning the Far left wing throwing glass shad missiles at police while the far right protesters were congratulated on following the rules. Hmmm arent the right wing aligned with being the violent ones?
The police minister sounded fed up and at breaking point putting up with these twits.
Goverments that refuse to accept any accountability and dont have the brains to do something productive to arrest the slide have turned our once great state into a debt ridden lawless violent crap hole.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 19, 2025, 10:27:13 pm
Been saying it for ages, the joint is lawless. Youth Crime Starting filling jails with the perps and their parents when they are minors. The hunt down the organised crime gang members who are "hiring" kids to their dirty work and jail them for a long time. Parents will start paying attention on where their children are and being, well, parents. Kids will started thinking about consequences, as will crime.gang members. Time to get serious, nuffs e farken nuff now.
Protest Play nice or lose the right. Track down the glass and rock throwers (left, middle or right) and make them accountable for their actions.
WTF has gone wrong with the general behaviour of society? Its disgusting the things humans do to other humans.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Lods on October 20, 2025, 08:02:32 am
I've said this before.... Punishing parents is futile. Many parents of young offenders have been in jail or are currently in jail. Many suffer from mental health issues. They are drug and alcohol dependent. Many are illiterate. Some intellectual disability or social inadequacy is common. They come from poor socio-economic backgrounds. They struggle to look after themselves, let alone their kids.
But here's the thing.... For the most part they do love and care about their kids. They want a better life for them. They just don't have the means or the ability to provide that.
Educated well off families don't provide a large percentge of kids in detention. It's the 'circle of crime'. And the current generation in detention will provide the next generation. Over the 40 years I spent in the system I've taught both parents and their children Often the same family names kept appearing.
The other issue is the value of incarceration. The Juvenile System is in many respects are 'Schools of Crime' as bonds are formed and strategies for offending are shared.
Kids reach a point when they reach about 18 where they choose a path. Many go on to lead productive lives...the others keep offending and spend much of their life in jail. Once in the system it's often too late. There are some offenders who definitely need to be kept in custody. But there are probably just as many who should never see the inside of a centre.
The answer doesn't lie with locking them all up. Keeping a kid in custody for a period is a surprisingly expensive strategy. Money that could be much better spent on pre-offending diversionary programs with many youngsters.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Professer E on October 20, 2025, 09:16:15 am
Dunno Lods, I went to the same schools adjacent to Heidelberg West and Olympic Village as many former recidivists and received the same education, yet the outcome was different. Some people just keeping making poor choices and I reckon a lot of it comes down to poor parental guidance, but everyone has their pet theory
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on October 20, 2025, 09:19:39 am
Two articles worth a read IMO. On a surface read they seem a little contradictory, but I imagine understanding crime in toto is a fairly complex business.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: northernblue on October 20, 2025, 09:27:31 am
Dunno Lods, I went to the same schools adjacent to Heidelberg West and Olympic Village as many former recidivists and received the same education, yet the outcome was different. Some people just keeping making poor choices and I reckon a lot of it comes down to poor parental guidance, but everyone has their pet theory
People are individuals and make both good and poor choices and there is no “one solution” to these or pretty much any other problem. As to making parents “responsible” for their children’s crimes, where does that stop ? My son has a hairy arse and he makes his own choices, do you want me to break his legs to limit where and what he does ?
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Baggers on October 20, 2025, 09:54:48 am
Police minister interview was very stern in condemning the Far left wing throwing glass shad missiles at police while the far right protesters were congratulated on following the rules. Hmmm arent the right wing aligned with being the violent ones?
The police minister sounded fed up and at breaking point putting up with these twits.
Goverments that refuse to accept any accountability and dont have the brains to do something productive to arrest the slide have turned our once great state into a debt ridden lawless violent crap hole.
Shawny, I suspect you may have bought into the HUN puerile and simplistic assumption that it was 'lefties' who threw the rocks. That's called shoehorning events to suit your own political agenda. FA to do with left, right, middle, up down... whateverthefck.
For a far more accurate and relevant assessment of who may do these things, read Principal LODs' insightful contribution above... with an open mind.
I, too, have worked in the system but not for 40 years as Principal LODS did, I only lasted just over a month at Winlaton young female offenders detention centre. These girls were disaffected, disenfranchised (for many of the reasons Principal LODS mentioned) and mostly, also, sexually abused. And generally speaking they fell into three categories, they were either angry, and as a result very violently antisocial ...or totally withdrawn, self-destructive and suicidal... or had a serious mental health issue, or three (schizophrenia/bi-polar/panic disorders/PTSD etc.).
When your solution to youth street violence is to build more prisons, and keep building more prisons, doesn't that tell you that prisons are not the solution for young offenders?
Why did I only last just over a month? Well after listening to the horrors stories of sexual abuse from the girls, in considerable detail -- took a couple of weeks to earn their trust, they knew I really did care -- it was just too much. Broke me/triggered my own PTSD. So I knew I wasn't suited to the job.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: shawny on October 20, 2025, 10:18:37 am
lol i have my own thread!!
More gang machete action at Luna park. May need to order more bins Jacinta.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: shawny on October 20, 2025, 10:52:40 am
Nothing to do with Taco and deserves its own thread:
Shawny, I suspect you may have bought into the HUN puerile and simplistic assumption that it was 'lefties' who threw the rocks. That's called shoehorning events to suit your own political agenda. FA to do with left, right, middle, up down... whateverthefck
I didnt buy into anything simply quoted what the police minister said in his press conference which was so refreshing to see someone stand up to these lowlifes and call them out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbliCmt0QqA
As others have said enough is enough. The politicians are weak and compulsive liars and the current lot are simply incapable of fixing the mess they caused. The machete bins fiasco says enough of the incompetence of those we elected to run the state (well i didn't but enough did unfortunately) - they focus on topics to win votes and fail to address the important issues. Our state is being overrun with criminals, majority out on bond, no repercussions for violent protesters against the law as well as the effect of letting tens of thousands of immigrants in weekly with too many that don't want to assimilate to our customs and worst part is when they commit a serious crime they is stuff all to deter the next lot from offending. Lack of mental health facilities to monitor and house those who should not be on the street. That poor chef that was stabbed in the city last week for no reason was just sickening.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Lods on October 20, 2025, 11:14:01 am
Dunno Lods, I went to the same schools adjacent to Heidelberg West and Olympic Village as many former recidivists and received the same education, yet the outcome was different. Some people just keeping making poor choices and I reckon a lot of it comes down to poor parental guidance, but everyone has their pet theory
That's actually a good point Prof.
Why do some kids thrive in the same system while others fail? There is no doubt parental authority sometimes has little impact, but as I pointed out before that's largely through lack of parental skills. For some, 'parental control' manifests itself through physical abuse. Kids wont respond to that....they'll avoid it by running with their peers and avoiding home.
As to failure... There's a conversation a teacher in a JJ detention setting once had with a student
Teacher: We all have different things we can be good at. Student: We're good at crime. Teacher: No you're not! Good criminals don't get caught.
The fact is these kids have failed at most things. They've even failed at being criminals. I lost count of the number of kids I've taught who reached the age of 15-16 and were still unable to read. Failure at school leads them to avoiding a place of failure and finding alternative often anti-social activities.
The kids have failed, but the systems have failed them too. So there has to be a better way for these kids, something more intensive that gets them early, and works to divert them away from criminal activities, or at least provide them with skills to cope. It'll cost, but there won't be a lot of difference between the cost of those programs and the cost of locking them up.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: dodge on October 20, 2025, 11:29:41 am
Why are we all of a sudden turning everything into 'Left' or 'Right' issues. They aren't. They are societal ones. Until language and actions return to reasonableness, this division will continue. It is well and truly time to stop. A rally to 'Unite to fight the right'? (as one banner said). Burning police effigy's? Throwing rocks at police? Deliberately organising counter protests? Protest to improve society, not to divide it further.
While the State Government has a lot of work to do on crime, what is the opposition's response? Their federal leader comes and visits and suggests how unsafe Victoria is (from the Dutton playbook) What is the Vic opposition's solution? Until we get some ideas from the opposition, we are stuck with what we have. Tough on crime isn't a solution - it's a slogan.
In the meantime, whenever a crime is now committed, it is mentioned if the offender was on bail. Yes, it is an issue, but is it an increasing or decreasing one? We have to have bail laws - Government writes them, courts apply them. Police are frustrated particularly at how they are being applied and a reluctance (?) to lock up the repeat offenders. I have no idea where the solution is.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: shawny on October 20, 2025, 11:58:39 am
Why are we all of a sudden turning everything into 'Left' or 'Right' issues. They aren't. They are societal ones. Until language and actions return to reasonableness, this division will continue. It is well and truly time to stop. A rally to 'Unite to fight the right'? (as one banner said). Burning police effigy's? Throwing rocks at police? Deliberately organising counter protests? Protest to improve society, not to divide it further.
While the State Government has a lot of work to do on crime, what is the opposition's response? Their federal leader comes and visits and suggests how unsafe Victoria is (from the Dutton playbook) What is the Vic opposition's solution? Until we get some ideas from the opposition, we are stuck with what we have. Tough on crime isn't a solution - it's a slogan.
In the meantime, whenever a crime is now committed, it is mentioned if the offender was on bail. Yes, it is an issue, but is it an increasing or decreasing one? We have to have bail laws - Government writes them, courts apply them. Police are frustrated particularly at how they are being applied and a reluctance (?) to lock up the repeat offenders. I have no idea where the solution is.
We don't know what the opposition would do as the current mob have been in power for the last 12 years and its hard to find an area of the state they have improved under their leadership.
Any half decent opposition should have been a shoe in the last few elections and its a blight on the sad state of local government that despite doing such a poor job the same party keeps getting re-elected. The libs do little to instill confidence amongst the people but the current mob has had 12 years and look at where we are at - time is well and truly up and someone else should be given the chance to improve right the wrongs.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on October 20, 2025, 12:02:18 pm
To me the main problem seems to be the gutless mask wearing thugs opportunistically hiding behind legitimate causes to create havoc, "Sovereign Citizens", 1%ers", "Conspiracy Nutters" and "Neo-Nazis" hiding behind university students and grandmothers.
This has little or nothing to do with the political left or right, that's just an excuse to bash a political opponent, the p1ssweak political parties are happy to schtuum it up when the target is the opposition.
Laws were passed to unmask these extremists, but they have never been enacted, it's as my signature quote states.
Step one should be removing the opportunity to profit from this sort of behaviour and a lot of it will evaporate, like that nutter who runs the Desi Retreats!
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: madbluboy on October 20, 2025, 12:19:35 pm
It was the anti racism protesters yesterday throwing rocks the size of coke cans at police.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 20, 2025, 01:21:30 pm
To me the main problem seems to be the gutless mask wearing thugs opportunistically hiding behind legitimate causes to create havoc, "Sovereign Citizens", 1%ers", "Conspiracy Nutters" and "Neo-Nazis" hiding behind university students and grandmothers.
This has little or nothing to do with the political left or right, that's just an excuse to bash a political opponent, the p1ssweak political parties are happy to schtuum it up when the target is the opposition.
Laws were passed to unmask these extremists, but they have never been enacted, it's as my signature quote states.
Step one should be removing the opportunity to profit from this sort of behaviour and a lot of it will evaporate, like that nutter who runs the Desi Retreats!
Crime increases when society breaks down more and people get more desperate in their efforts to survive. Australia has become like the old Germany post WW1 when it transitioned from a semi-authoritarian empire to the Weimar Republic, a democracy that protected individual right and limited police power. You end up with the people looking for alternatives to restore safety and order and thats when you get right wing extremists and nutters like the Nazi Party back then or in our case One Nation gaining popularity, political support and eventually power. A lot of what went on back then mirrors what is happening in Australia even down to recent events with Jewish folk being hassled and buildings defaced etc due to society tolerating and being weak on offenders under the banner of democracy and freedom of speech etc but it all gets down to politics. In short you have to fix the economic problems to fix the crime problems or you will get a repeat of history on a world wide level not just Australia..
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: dodge on October 20, 2025, 01:34:53 pm
We don't know what the opposition would do as the current mob have been in power for the last 12 years and its hard to find an area of the state they have improved under their leadership.
Any half decent opposition should have been a shoe in the last few elections and its a blight on the sad state of local government that despite doing such a poor job the same party keeps getting re-elected. The libs do little to instill confidence amongst the people but the current mob has had 12 years and look at where we are at - time is well and truly up and someone else should be given the chance to improve right the wrongs.
Isn't that the problem Shawny - that we don't know what the opposition will do, because they won't tell us? Great at highlighting issues, not so great at offering solutions.
Don't know if they want to fix anything - that would require them to be in in government and to actually do something. Much easier complaining from opposition. There have been three terms of Liberal/LNP government in Vic since 1982 - they have no idea how to win an election. When Bolte won in 1955, Libs were in power until 1982 - 27 years.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on October 20, 2025, 03:24:04 pm
The opposition has nothinged itself into oblivion, they are beyond pathetic, utterly spineless in opposition. They spend more time usurping each other than they do countering the government.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 20, 2025, 09:02:50 pm
To me the main problem seems to be the gutless mask wearing thugs opportunistically hiding behind legitimate causes to create havoc, "Sovereign Citizens", 1%ers", "Conspiracy Nutters" and "Neo-Nazis" hiding behind university students and grandmothers.
This has little or nothing to do with the political left or right, that's just an excuse to bash a political opponent, the p1ssweak political parties are happy to schtuum it up when the target is the opposition.
Laws were passed to unmask these extremists, but they have never been enacted, it's as my signature quote states.
Step one should be removing the opportunity to profit from this sort of behaviour and a lot of it will evaporate, like that nutter who runs the Desi Retreats!
Crime increases when society breaks down more and people get more desperate in their efforts to survive. Australia has become like the old Germany post WW1 when it transitioned from a semi-authoritarian empire to the Weimar Republic, a democracy that protected individual right and limited police power. You end up with the people looking for alternatives to restore safety and order and thats when you get right wing extremists and nutters like the Nazi Party back then or in our case One Nation gaining popularity, political support and eventually power. A lot of what went on back then mirrors what is happening in Australia even down to recent events with Jewish folk being hassled and buildings defaced etc due to society tolerating and being weak on offenders under the banner of democracy and freedom of speech etc but it all gets down to politics. In short you have to fix the economic problems to fix the crime problems or you will get a repeat of history on a world wide level not just Australia..
We were talking about this at the dinner table tonight and the saying "the fish rots from the head" dawned on. Here you have our leaders getting on TV or on radio saying things like "there's no problem" or "Melbourne is safe". They are either delusional, dumb, talking crap/spin or all of the above. As the average Joe Blow if Melbourne is safe or If crime is in check or not and see what responses you get. Keep burying heads in the sand and talking the softly softly approach, its got us this far so should keep working a treat...not
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 20, 2025, 09:04:08 pm
In short you have to fix the economic problems to fix the crime problems or you will get a repeat of history on a world wide level not just Australia..
It's a furphy that they are strugglers, they turn up to protests in Landcruisers and tricked up twin cabs, using your tax dollars to fund protests, then use more tax dollars to fund legal action against police with bogus brutality claims, and win compo funded with more of your tax dollars.
Look carefully at the crowds, it's the same faces, that is why they do their best to hide them, they have turned protest into a profession.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Thryleon on October 21, 2025, 05:35:07 am
Crime increases when society breaks down more and people get more desperate in their efforts to survive. Australia has become like the old Germany post WW1 when it transitioned from a semi-authoritarian empire to the Weimar Republic, a democracy that protected individual right and limited police power. You end up with the people looking for alternatives to restore safety and order and thats when you get right wing extremists and nutters like the Nazi Party back then or in our case One Nation gaining popularity, political support and eventually power. A lot of what went on back then mirrors what is happening in Australia even down to recent events with Jewish folk being hassled and buildings defaced etc due to society tolerating and being weak on offenders under the banner of democracy and freedom of speech etc but it all gets down to politics. In short you have to fix the economic problems to fix the crime problems or you will get a repeat of history on a world wide level not just Australia..
We were talking about this at the dinner table tonight and the saying "the fish rots from the head" dawned on. Here you have our leaders getting on TV or on radio saying things like "there's no problem" or "Melbourne is safe". They are either delusional, dumb, talking crap/spin or all of the above. As the average Joe Blow if Melbourne is safe or If crime is in check or not and see what responses you get. Keep burying heads in the sand and talking the softly softly approach, its got us this far so should keep working a treat...not
this occurs when politicians enjoy privilege and dont understand what Joe average goes through.
According to them, property affordability isnt an issue, they live in affluent suburbs so everything is rosy there too with minimal crime and probably minimal youths.
The distance between the haves and the have nots has grown significantly and circling back to the house thing, why would a young person get a job? Is it to afford to live? They are unlikely to earn enough money to put a roof over their own heads and face arguably the biggest challenge in working to afford something and live their life at the same time when they can go on unemployment benefits and simply live their life. They wont ever earn big bucks doing so but most of them dont care, and frankly aside from building a career what are they working for? There is more scope for them to make money off instagram videos than there is in the workforce for the majority of them.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Baggers on October 21, 2025, 08:57:48 am
Shawny, I suspect you may have bought into the HUN puerile and simplistic assumption that it was 'lefties' who threw the rocks. That's called shoehorning events to suit your own political agenda. FA to do with left, right, middle, up down... whateverthefck
I didnt buy into anything simply quoted what the police minister said in his press conference which was so refreshing to see someone stand up to these lowlifes and call them out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbliCmt0QqA
As others have said enough is enough. The politicians are weak and compulsive liars and the current lot are simply incapable of fixing the mess they caused. The machete bins fiasco says enough of the incompetence of those we elected to run the state (well i didn't but enough did unfortunately) - they focus on topics to win votes and fail to address the important issues. Our state is being overrun with criminals, majority out on bond, no repercussions for violent protesters against the law as well as the effect of letting tens of thousands of immigrants in weekly with too many that don't want to assimilate to our customs and worst part is when they commit a serious crime they is stuff all to deter the next lot from offending. Lack of mental health facilities to monitor and house those who should not be on the street. That poor chef that was stabbed in the city last week for no reason was just sickening.
Like your work, Shawny. You call it as you see it - gotta respect that. And you identify many legitimate concerns and problems.
**warning, corporate cliche coming** Let's 'drill down' into the important issues you raise.
1. Politicians. Former Liberal Party minister Don Chipp once commented that the Australian Democrats were there to 'keep the bastards honest.' He was the AD's inaugural leader after leaving the Libs. Today you'd call him a 'moderate' or 'progressive' conservative. Eventually the AD folded. Seems 'keeping the bastards honest' is a lost cause. Looking to politicians for courageous leadership is bound to result in disappointment. The Libs. Nationally and in our state of Victoria, they're a rabble with the inevitable happening - the Far Right and Moderates are at war with each other betraying their founders' vision, especially Bob Menzies. But they are doing more than betraying Bob (a one-eyed Bluebagger by the way), they are letting down the nation and state, respectively, by failing to provide a viable alternative to the incumbents effectively handing them the keys. Absolute power corrupts... bla bla bla.
2. Machete bins. Oh dear. A pale attempt to emulate Howard's moratorium on firearms and their voluntary surrender. Abject failure to address the root causes of too many angry youths taking to the streets with violent intent, though locking up more of them now will help... a little bit, for a little while. I'll throw in a left field item that I believe contributes to youth crime (and serious mental health issues)... divorce. Back in the 80s and 90s many folks in the mental health field identified that young males in particular would be future problems owing to being, simply put, under fathered and over mothered. Sheesh, it's tough enough for an 'in tact' family to raise one child, let alone two or more on your own! Then you have the issues that Principal LODS identified in the lower socio-economic, welfare and crime families/groups - a hapless revolving door. What are we doing, on a meaningful level, to address this?
3. Protests. A reminder that it was the 'left' that created the term 'non-violent protesting' ...in the 60s. The Spotted One (LP) was probably closest to the pin with his comment about the professional, angry, malcontents who infiltrate peaceful demonstrations and in this case, hurl rocks. FA to do with the Left, everything to do with d*ckheads. This is not a recent occurrence, been going on for decades but now with sensational news reporting it does seem the state is being overrun by crims. It's a problem for sure, but over and agenda driven reporting, clouds and exaggerates the very real problem. As an aside, a mate who served with me in the Navy on leaving the service went into commercial TV in Sydney and was telling me only recently how in news rooms (TV and print) the footage would come in from a protest and they would edit the coverage in such a way that the focus was on scuffles, and worse, greatly exaggerating the extent of any violence.
4. Immigration. Holy mackeral I recall the same racism/xenophobia in the 50s against the poms ('The $10 immigrants'), 60s, 70s and even 80s against Greeks, Italians and Middle Eastern immigrants... then to Indian and Asian folks, and so on it goes. This is nothing new, Shawny. Seems to be spliced into the DNA of some folks (Xenophobia).
5. Mental health. Yes, closing facilities and farming out folks with serious (and sometimes dangerous) mental health issues back to families and the community is a tragic, urgent issue. Mr Kennett has a fair bit of blood on his hands in this regard. And this very real problem is still a long way from being dealt with properly and well.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on October 21, 2025, 12:29:16 pm
As an aside, a mate who served with me in the Navy on leaving the service went into commercial TV in Sydney and was telling me only recently how in news rooms (TV and print) the footage would come in from a protest and they would edit the coverage in such a way that the focus was on scuffles, and worse, greatly exaggerating the extent of any violence.
I've travelled a lot for work and recreation, while overseas on more than one occasion I've had alarmed family call me after being exposed to "creatively edited" media content. On one occasion I was in a foreign capital that was apparently burning to the ground after riotous protests in the central park, my hotel room overlooked that park and I was strolling through it enjoying the sun and fresh air when the call came in! When I checked with my local contacts the event that was represented in Oz as mass worker protest was in effect a union picket outside a single government building opposing redundancies. But let's not let the facts get in the way of a highly rating racist story!
The stupid thing is local protestors model their behaviour and tactics on the fake reports that they watch, so in effect this is a feedback loop caused by the media's own fake reporting.
Even worse, when I was at News Ltd, the tip offs about protests and demonstrations, in most cases union related back then, would come in from the same handful people no matter the industry sectors involved. So as you mentioned this has been going on for a long long time.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: shawny on October 21, 2025, 06:03:47 pm
I didnt buy into anything simply quoted what the police minister said in his press conference which was so refreshing to see someone stand up to these lowlifes and call them out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbliCmt0QqA
As others have said enough is enough. The politicians are weak and compulsive liars and the current lot are simply incapable of fixing the mess they caused. The machete bins fiasco says enough of the incompetence of those we elected to run the state (well i didn't but enough did unfortunately) - they focus on topics to win votes and fail to address the important issues. Our state is being overrun with criminals, majority out on bond, no repercussions for violent protesters against the law as well as the effect of letting tens of thousands of immigrants in weekly with too many that don't want to assimilate to our customs and worst part is when they commit a serious crime they is stuff all to deter the next lot from offending. Lack of mental health facilities to monitor and house those who should not be on the street. That poor chef that was stabbed in the city last week for no reason was just sickening.
4. Immigration. Holy mackeral I recall the same racism/xenophobia in the 50s against the poms ('The $10 immigrants'), 60s, 70s and even 80s against Greeks, Italians and Middle Eastern immigrants... then to Indian and Asian folks, and so on it goes. This is nothing new, Shawny. Seems to be spliced into the DNA of some folks (Xenophobia).
Don't agree with this one - the immigrants that flooded our shores in the 50s-80s, the vast majority assimilated into the Aussie culture, worked and worked bloody hard, respected our laws and authority and if kids of Wog parents like me dared to disrespect the law or even just be rude to anyone older then we were we coped it. From what i hear the current crop we are letting in by the tens of thousands just don't have those traits at all and its clear to see how things are headed.
The amount of crime in certain pockets of this state, in particular the western suburbs is worse than its ever been. There is no respect for the law whatsoever and regardless of which side of the political fence you sit on serious crime such as car jackings, home invasions, knife offences against civilians has never been this brazen. Everytime im out and about function party etc and im speaking to an emergency workers I always ask them for thir experiences and im yet to met one that said its the same as it was 20 years ago. They all say in different ways that there is a disproportion number of serious crimes coming from individual's from certain war torn regions. Sure there was crime in the 50, 60 and 70s from the Europeans, Asian, Indian etc but nothing like this.
If you are not fully committed to our culture our laws our flag and our peaceful way of life and are not willing to work hard then you should not be allowed in regardless of how bad your current life is. I know it sounds a bit cold but allowing those in who don't 100% buy into our values is slowly turning our streets like the ones they escaped.
And if you commit a serious crime their citizenship should be revoked.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 21, 2025, 06:20:13 pm
4. Immigration. Holy mackeral I recall the same racism/xenophobia in the 50s against the poms ('The $10 immigrants'), 60s, 70s and even 80s against Greeks, Italians and Middle Eastern immigrants... then to Indian and Asian folks, and so on it goes. This is nothing new, Shawny. Seems to be spliced into the DNA of some folks (Xenophobia).
Don't agree with this one - the immigrants that flooded our shores in the 50s-80s, the vast majority assimilated into the Aussie culture, worked and worked bloody hard, respected our laws and authority and if kids of Wog parents like me dared to disrespect the law or even just be rude to anyone older then we were we coped it. From what i hear the current crop we are letting in by the tens of thousands just don't have those traits at all and its clear to see how things are headed.
The amount of crime in certain pockets of this state, in particular the western suburbs is worse than its ever been. There is no respect for the law whatsoever and regardless of which side of the political fence you sit on serious crime such as car jackings, home invasions, knife offences against civilians has never been this brazen. Everytime im out and about function party etc and im speaking to an emergency workers I always ask them for thir experiences and im yet to met one that said its the same as it was 20 years ago. They all say in different ways that there is a disproportion number of serious crimes coming from individual's from certain war torn regions. Sure there was crime in the 50, 60 and 70s from the Europeans, Asian, Indian etc but nothing like this.
If you are not fully committed to our culture our laws our flag and our peaceful way of life and are not willing to work hard then you should not be allowed in regardless of how bad your current life is. I know it sounds a bit cold but allowing those in who don't 100% buy into our values is slowly turning our streets like the ones they escaped.
And if you commit a serious crime their citizenship should be revoked.
Agree, Western suburbs in Victoria is a nightmare place to try and live and survive, there a lot of good people doing it tough out there and suffering with the criminal types running amok. You have to live there to understand how bad it is, said it before that my daughter lived out at Caroline Springs/Fraser Rise and it was a madhouse. She copped the lot ,gangs at the shops doing car jackings, damaged cars in the street, attempted break ins to her home, people stabbed at Watergardens shopping centre ,even a drone hovering outside her kitchen window with a white package onboard. One in Nine people known to police she was told, lucky she moved to Greensborough where the only break ins are from possums and the odd bird or two trying to nest in a gap under your eaves.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Professer E on October 22, 2025, 10:47:59 pm
Still can't believe you can't protect your own family on your own property. Seriously, if people come onto someone's property with an intent to commit a crime common sense says you should be able to defend yours with zero legal repercussions.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on October 23, 2025, 03:36:27 am
Still can't believe you can't protect your own family on your own property. Seriously, if people come onto someone's property with an intent to commit a crime common sense says you should be able to defend yours with zero legal repercussions.
It's gamed by savvy kids, if they know that you are prone to react they setup people with a tactic called swatting. That in particular is why females should never respond solo to calls for help even if they think it is someone they know.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: kruddler on October 23, 2025, 03:41:11 am
Still can't believe you can't protect your own family on your own property. Seriously, if people come onto someone's property with an intent to commit a crime common sense says you should be able to defend yours with zero legal repercussions.
Theres a doco just out on netflix that ahows a reason why that isnt always a good thing - the perfect neighbour.
Granted, its american and they are a bit more over the top, but it exposes a problem
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Baggers on October 23, 2025, 09:24:49 am
Still can't believe you can't protect your own family on your own property. Seriously, if people come onto someone's property with an intent to commit a crime common sense says you should be able to defend yours with zero legal repercussions.
100%. Personally, I don't give a rusty fck what the law says... Anyone entering our home or property with ill intent has forfeited their rights. Only ever happened once to us many years ago -- think I've mentioned it here previously -- our Doberman sent him packing - the dopey pr1ck moved quicker (to get over the back fence) than Gout Gout.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on October 23, 2025, 10:13:10 am
The abstracts and summaries of studies I've read indicate that guns in the home don't actually make people safer, and create an increased risk of injury and fatalities unrelated to intruders.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 23, 2025, 10:50:17 am
The abstracts and summaries of studies I've read indicate that guns in the home don't actually make people safer, and create an increased risk of injury and fatalities unrelated to intruders.
My “Client interaction and defensive tactics” instructor warned against using weapons in a home invasion situation. He said that weapons generally ended up in the intruder’s hands and were used against the innocent party.
I have firearms at my place. If I wanted to use one for self defence I would have to retrieve the keys from a key safe, go to the gun safe and unlock it, take out my weapon of choice, unlock the ammunition storage safe, get the right ammunition and load the firearm. I generally can’t manage that in time to get a shot at the foxes that occasionally visit.
Our security service sign and “caution - dogs on premises” sign probably mean that I won’t have to decide about trying to retrieve a firearm.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on October 23, 2025, 12:23:41 pm
Our security service sign and “caution - dogs on premises” sign probably mean that I won’t have to decide about trying to retrieve a firearm.
These are the two important and under-rated aspects of security.
People install home alarms systems and cameras, then refuse to put up the signs provided by the security companies because they are "ugly". But the hard truth is the sign is a huge part of the deterrent, and it works.
The equal best option is a medium to large dog, small dogs are useless for defence and might only be marginally useful as an alert.
Years ago a relative was heavily involved in the first use of police dogs in Victoria, he could never understand why the program wasn't expanded more widely and faster. It was so successful when it first rolled out he had expected dogs to eventually be paired with every patrol. Unfortunately, opportunistic lawyers got involved and started suing the police for injuries incurred while resisting arrest.
If people want to have private security patrols in the local area, security with dogs is a much better deterrent than security with guns. A gun can only be used when in safe range, dogs can run someone down from hundreds of meters away, you can't hide from them, and they won't go through a wall or window and kill an innocent bystander!
When you watch a protest, the protesters harass mounted police, butt cigarettes on horses, throw projectiles at them, when the dogs are present the protesters give them a wide berth.
Finally, there are some specific cultural demographics that courtesy of long standing epigenetics are thoroughly petrified of dogs.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Professer E on October 23, 2025, 12:35:05 pm
Be careful,vid your dog bites an intruder can't you be charged with assault by a dangerous animal of some such rubbish? Crazy world we live in
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on October 23, 2025, 12:37:55 pm
Be careful,vid your dog bites an intruder can't you be charged with assault by a dangerous animal of some such rubbish? Crazy world we live in
If you chase them out of your house and they trip and fall, they will claim injury and you'll be charged with assault and battery. The problem isn't really the crook or the law, the problem is the crooked lawyer.
So you might as well let the dog finish the job!
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 23, 2025, 01:19:58 pm
Be careful,vid your dog bites an intruder can't you be charged with assault by a dangerous animal of some such rubbish? Crazy world we live in
Incorrect.
If your dog bites someone, it is a defence if that person was (a) trespassing, (b) attacking you or (c) teasing or harming the dog.
My two are more likely to lick than bite but their very large size tends to intimidate people who don't know them.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: madbluboy on October 23, 2025, 02:58:45 pm
I recall a couple of years ago a father choked out an intruder in his house and he faced no charges??
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: madbluboy on October 23, 2025, 02:59:15 pm
And the intruder died.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 23, 2025, 03:42:37 pm
Council advised us we have to erect and maintain signage at our property saying we have a Dog and the signage has to visible from the entrance to the property. We also asked our lawyers a while back when attending to another matter and they said while not breaking any laws or being enforceable its advisable to have clear signage and the Dog restricted to the back yard. Problem we have that being a very large male German Shepherd our dog while not classified officially as a dangerous dog is stereotyped as an aggressive breed and has less leeway if an incident was to occur and we have to be very careful with him. In Victoria the law states: The law expects you to act proportionately to the threat and stop using force once it’s no longer necessary. However, once the threat is over—say, the intruders run away—it’s not lawful to chase after them and attack like a dog would do. The law expects you to act proportionately to the threat and stop using force once it’s no longer necessary. Which in the case of Dogs becomes a grey area, if there is no one home, your little Maltese terrier or plump lab is probably going to have a nip at the intruder then call it a day but a GS, Rottie, Doberman, Akita etc are going to keep going until the intruder escapes or either subdues the dog or the reverse... Any severe or fatal injuries is probably going to end up badly for the dog especially if the intruder was unarmed or under adult age plus you could be facing a civil suit with claims against you for owning and training a dangerous animal.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Baggers on October 23, 2025, 04:20:47 pm
Council advised us we have to erect and maintain signage at our property saying we have a Dog and the signage has to visible from the entrance to the property. We also asked our lawyers a while back when attending to another matter and they said while not breaking any laws or being enforceable its advisable to have clear signage and the Dog restricted to the back yard. Problem we have that being a very large male German Shepherd our dog while not classified officially as a dangerous dog is stereotyped as an aggressive breed and has less leeway if an incident was to occur and we have to be very careful with him. In Victoria the law states: The law expects you to act proportionately to the threat and stop using force once it’s no longer necessary. However, once the threat is over—say, the intruders run away—it’s not lawful to chase after them and attack like a dog would do. The law expects you to act proportionately to the threat and stop using force once it’s no longer necessary. Which in the case of Dogs becomes a grey area, if there is no one home, your little Maltese terrier or plump lab is probably going to have a nip at the intruder then call it a day but a GS, Rottie, Doberman, Akita etc are going to keep going until the intruder escapes or either subdues the dog or the reverse... Any severe or fatal injuries is probably going to end up badly for the dog especially if the intruder was unarmed or under adult age plus you could be facing a civil suit with claims against you for owning and training a dangerous animal.
Makes sense and fair enough.
There is an element of responsibility for those of us who own a large dog with strong protective instincts. Recipe for disaster when a big dog is owned by irresponsible folks.
Our gal has been socialized, trained and came from a reputable breeder. I believe her bark and/or presence at any window is plenty of a deterrent. And a deterrent is far better than anything that is a step further. Our critter even qualified sufficiently to have our home and contents insurance costs reduced to the same as if we had an alarm system!
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 23, 2025, 04:51:49 pm
The Domestic Animals Act 1994 defines dangerous dogs and restricted breeds. Restricted breeds are the Japanese Tosa, fila Brasileiro, dogo Argentino, Perro de Presa Canario (or Presa Canario), and American Pit Bull Terrier (or Pit Bull Terrier). A dangerous dog is a dog that has been declared dangerous by the local Council, a dog that is, or has been, a guard dog for the purpose of guarding non-residential premises, or a dog that has been trained to attack or bite any person (or the protective sleeve worn when training guard dogs).
If a dog that is not a dangerous dog or a restricted breed "attacks or bites any person or animal" or "causes death or a serious injury to the person or animal" or "rushes at or chases any person" the owner of the dog and/or the person in charge of the dog is guilty of an offence. However, the Act specifies that "it is a defence to that offence if the incident occurred because— (a) the dog was being teased, abused or assaulted; or (b) a person was trespassing on the premises on which the dog was kept; or (c) another animal was on the premises on which the dog was kept; or (d) a person known to the dog was being attacked in front of the dog."
There's no "grey area" and the provisions of the Domestic Animals Act 1994 are completely separate from the "self-defence" provisions set out in the Crimes Act 1958:
Section 322K 1. A person is not guilty of an offence if the person carries out the conduct constituting the offence in self-defence. 2. A person carries out conduct in self-defence if – 1. The person believes that the conduct is necessary in self-defence; and 2. The conduct is a reasonable response in the circumstances as the person perceives them.
Section 322M adds specific provisions for self-defence in a family violence situation.
As an example, it would be lawful to choke someone who attacked you with a knife and there's no requirement to stop choking them provided that you believe that it's the only way to stop them stabbing you.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 23, 2025, 08:31:51 pm
Be careful,vid your dog bites an intruder can't you be charged with assault by a dangerous animal of some such rubbish? Crazy world we live in
If you chase them out of your house and they trip and fall, they will claim injury and you'll be charged with assault and battery. The problem isn't really the crook or the law, the problem is the crooked lawyer.
Thats a bit of a myth me thinks. I do know of a business owner (and state level rifle shooter) who shot an intruder (wounded him the leg) who broke into his High St Northcote business in the 80s. Got off those chargers IIRC. Years later, was broken into again, again he shot the intruder in the leg but did some time for the second offence.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on October 23, 2025, 10:09:58 pm
Thats a bit of a myth me thinks. I do know of a business owner (and state level rifle shooter) who shot an intruder (wounded him the leg) who broke into his High St Northcote business in the 80s. Got off those chargers IIRC. Years later, was broken into again, again he shot the intruder in the leg but did some time for the second offence.
That's almost 50 years ago, and I've had a couple of encounters with a bloke called Pat Lennon that suggests otherwise.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 24, 2025, 12:20:04 am
Thats a bit of a myth me thinks. I do know of a business owner (and state level rifle shooter) who shot an intruder (wounded him the leg) who broke into his High St Northcote business in the 80s. Got off those chargers IIRC. Years later, was broken into again, again he shot the intruder in the leg but did some time for the second offence.
That's almost 50 years ago, and I've had a couple of encounters with a bloke called Pat Lennon that suggests otherwise.
The law hasn’t changed LP.
As long as you believe that you’re in strife and use appropriate force to defend yourself, you’re fine.
A smallish woman being attacked by a large bloke can use whatever means she has to defend herself. A large bloke being attacked by an old woman can’t shoot or stab her.
You can’t be charged with “assault and battery” if someone trips over. For a start, battery is now considered as assault and would have to involve the application of unlawful force.
Can you give an example of a crook who successfully sued someone after tripping over?
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on October 24, 2025, 04:29:55 am
It's not that black and white, the law takes into account cause, so if the home owner contributes to injury even for someone there illegally they can be liable. These cases are usually settled long before any formal ruling, nobody in their right mind will risk their house for a punitive amount and lawyers know it.
Crooks want cash not a cellmate.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 24, 2025, 10:22:12 am
It's not that black and white, the law takes into account cause, so if the home owner contributes to injury even for someone there illegally they can be liable. These cases are usually settled long before any formal ruling, nobody in their right mind will risk their house for a punitive amount and lawyers know it.
Crooks want cash not a cellmate.
That’s garbage LP. My late brother specialised in representing crooks - the same people he used to arrest when he was a copper. He would often speak of “in pari delicto” - a wrongdoer is barred from seeking damages arising from their own illegal activity.
No such case could ever be settled because it could never be made.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on October 24, 2025, 02:02:09 pm
We are discussing two different things, you are talking about post criminal convictions, I'm talking about being sued long before or in the absence of any criminal conviction. Nobody given the sensible advice would take a civil case to court risking 30K+ in legal fees if the alternative was to settle for $10k.
If you want to see the same mechanism at play study Workcover, or study how the CCCP leverages people into become spies, it's all about risk management. Why do you think companies settle or people relent, because the risk on the other side of the equation is too great.
You'd be a dead set dud if you legally advised someone to risk $30K, $50k or there house to save $10k, and it is in that margin that blokes like Lennon worked because they can. I suppose if you have cash to burn you can stand the high moral ground.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 24, 2025, 05:47:25 pm
We are discussing two different things, you are talking about post criminal convictions, I'm talking about being sued long before or in the absence of any criminal conviction. Nobody given the sensible advice would take a civil case to court risking 30K+ in legal fees if the alternative was to settle for $10k.
If you want to see the same mechanism at play study Workcover, or study how the CCCP leverages people into become spies, it's all about risk management. Why do you think companies settle or people relent, because the risk on the other side of the equation is too great.
You'd be a dead set dud if you legally advised someone to risk $30K, $50k or there house to save $10k, and it is in that margin that blokes like Lennon worked because they can. I suppose if you have cash to burn you can stand the high moral ground.
You cannot sue for injuries suffered while committing a crime EOS.
If you managed to get the case to court, it would be laughed out by the judge and/or jury.
“Just how did you injure your leg Mr Smith?”
“I was kicking in the door so we could do a burg yer honour.”
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: kruddler on October 24, 2025, 07:43:58 pm
We are discussing two different things, you are talking about post criminal convictions, I'm talking about being sued long before or in the absence of any criminal conviction. Nobody given the sensible advice would take a civil case to court risking 30K+ in legal fees if the alternative was to settle for $10k.
If you want to see the same mechanism at play study Workcover, or study how the CCCP leverages people into become spies, it's all about risk management. Why do you think companies settle or people relent, because the risk on the other side of the equation is too great.
You'd be a dead set dud if you legally advised someone to risk $30K, $50k or there house to save $10k, and it is in that margin that blokes like Lennon worked because they can. I suppose if you have cash to burn you can stand the high moral ground.
You cannot sue for injuries suffered while committing a crime EOS.
If you managed to get the case to court, it would be laughed out by the judge and/or jury.
“Just how did you injure your leg Mr Smith?”
“I was kicking in the door so we could do a burg yer honour.”
In Australia, correct. A lot different overseas
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on October 24, 2025, 11:02:47 pm
You cannot sue for injuries suffered while committing a crime EOS.
If you managed to get the case to court, it would be laughed out by the judge and/or jury.
“Just how did you injure your leg Mr Smith?”
“I was kicking in the door so we could do a burg yer honour.”
You haven't committed a crime until you are found guilty, at least here in Australia.
When there is a settlement there is no jury, no judge and not many questions, it all happens across a desk.
My recommendation is you have a long long calm chat with legal aid before you jump at a defence.
No lawyer would seek a settlement or advise their client to agree to a settlement for a damages claim arising from a criminal act.
What are our crime statistics based on? Incidents reported to police, not convictions.
A trespasser may sue if they were harmed by a man-trap, but with little chance of success. The law is very clear, there is no duty of care owed to a trespasser regardless of whether that trespasser is ever convicted of a crime.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on October 25, 2025, 01:13:20 pm
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 25, 2025, 01:58:48 pm
It is funny that the two States with the highest crime rates aren't getting the same attention as third placed Victoria ... not that I think all Governments couldn't do more.
Victoria is mainly suffering at the hands of under 6,000 crooks and you'd think that the police, courts and politicians could come up with a more effective way of curtailing their illegal activities.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: shawny on October 25, 2025, 02:59:26 pm
Victoria is mainly suffering at the hands of under 6,000 crooks and you'd think that the police, courts and politicians could come up with a more effective way of curtailing their illegal activities.
Easy solution….. order more machette bins.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Lods on October 25, 2025, 03:20:51 pm
Thought this was kind of funny, and shows why all statistics regarding crime probably need to be handled with a bit of caution. They're not always equal. :D :D
Quote
The most common principal offences for police proceedings were:
fare evasion in New South Wales (26%) acts intended to cause injury in the Australian Capital Territory (29%), the Northern Territory (27%), and Victoria (22%) illicit drug offences in South Australia (25%) theft in Tasmania (24%), and Queensland (20%).
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 25, 2025, 04:31:38 pm
But Jacinta and her cronies say everything is fine.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Professer E on October 25, 2025, 06:41:29 pm
What a ******g sick joke....machete bins at what, $1M each. Impossible to justify
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: dodge on October 25, 2025, 09:17:44 pm
Or ~$2,400 each. It is not dividing the cost of the whole program by the number of bins. Not that the idea is a great one.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 25, 2025, 10:51:40 pm
Machete amnesty bins cost $2,400 each. The budget for the whole program - bins, advertising, collection, recycling, etc - is $13M, and there are 45 bins.
I was unhappy with little Johny Howard’s firearms ban - I lost my semi-auto .22 and 12 gauge - but I have to admit now that it was good public policy.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Professer E on October 26, 2025, 08:11:16 am
I had blackberries and other invasive weeds on our place and actually had a use for machetes and scrub hooks, but exemptions are too hard. The problem I have is that the perps don't hand in their stuff, so "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king" so to speak with those types.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: shawny on October 26, 2025, 10:26:21 am
Machete amnesty bins cost $2,400 each. The budget for the whole program - bins, advertising, collection, recycling, etc - is $13M, and there are 45 bins.
I was unhappy with little Johny Howard’s firearms ban - I lost my semi-auto .22 and 12 gauge - but I have to admit now that it was good public policy.
oh my...
Are you actually comparing the success of Howards guns laws with Jacinta machete bin debacle?
And the 'cost' of implementing this totally useless policy was a staggering $13M - pls dont try and downplay it by saying the 'bins actual cost' was $2400 as that just makes the whole thing even worse! HTF do they 'waste' over $12M of OUR money on this rubbish. All while cutting hospitals funding.
How many potholes does 12M fix? Disgusting governance whichever way you look at it.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 26, 2025, 11:06:29 am
Machete amnesty bins cost $2,400 each. The budget for the whole program - bins, advertising, collection, recycling, etc - is $13M, and there are 45 bins.
I was unhappy with little Johny Howard’s firearms ban - I lost my semi-auto .22 and 12 gauge - but I have to admit now that it was good public policy.
oh my...
Are you actually comparing the success of Howards guns laws with Jacinta machete bin debacle?
And the 'cost' of implementing this totally useless policy was a staggering $13M - pls dont try and downplay it by saying the 'bins actual cost' was $2400 as that just makes the whole thing even worse! HTF do they 'waste' over $12M of OUR money on this rubbish. All while cutting hospitals funding.
How many potholes does 12M fix? Disgusting governance whichever way you look at it.
I did a firearms and prohibited weapons course last weekend. The VicPol officers presenting have a very different view of the machete ban and see it as $13M well spent. They are actually dealing with machete crime, but what would they know?
I’m exempted from the ban by the way, but I prefer to use other implements.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Professer E on October 26, 2025, 12:25:02 pm
Does a firearms and prohibited weapons course pavd the way to a firearms license, I need the old "destruction of vermin" clause on my place
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 26, 2025, 12:47:48 pm
Does a firearms and prohibited weapons course pavd the way to a firearms license, I need the old "destruction of vermin" clause on my place
No, this was an RSL course that I did as manager of the collection of memorabilia at our RSL.
I foolishly let my shooter's licence expire in the 2000s and had to dispose of my firearms. When we moved out of the burbs, I needed firearms again so I could control vermin at our place.
It was relatively simple to get a new shooter's licence. You have to complete an evening course run by VicPol and Sporting Shooters and answer every question correctly (with a bit of prompting from the instructors). My course was held at Waurn Ponds Police Station. You then have to apply for a licence and that includes getting someone to verify that you're a suitable person, have a genuine reason (vermin control or just hunting), and you have to be a member of Sporting Shooters or Field and Game. Your licence will be revoked if you let your membership lapse.
You have to have an approved gunsafe - and VicPol will come and check that your firearms are stored correctly - and then you can apply to purchase a firearm. The firearms dealer walks you through the process and it takes around a month to get permission to purchase. Any subsequent permits go through in a week or so. I bought my gunsafe and firearms from Wild Outdoors in North Shore but Bunnings sells gunsafes.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Thryleon on October 26, 2025, 01:27:59 pm
The machete bins are a disgrace.
You could not hand one back with 0 recourse. Knife wielders will just pick up another sharp blade of a different size. Maybe something like a tomahawk axe for gardening and chopping wood.
Its not like the gun thing. Guns have a single purpose. To shoot.
The bins are simply about optics.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 26, 2025, 02:10:48 pm
You could not hand one back with 0 recourse. Knife wielders will just pick up another sharp blade of a different size. Maybe something like a tomahawk axe for gardening and chopping wood.
Its not like the gun thing. Guns have a single purpose. To shoot.
The bins are simply about optics.
Agree...The problem that I see is that the senior officials involved are not on the same page in terms of providing solutions and all have different ideas on how to solve the problem with the Government more interested in appeasing voters. The new Police Commissioner Mike Bush a Kiwi himself favours the NZ model which is characterised by crime prevention, steering low-level offenders away from the judicial system with diversions and warnings. However the Police Association(Union) have said "I think the courts are failing in their connection to community," Police Association of Victoria secretary Wayne Gatt told ABC Radio Melbourne. "There's a massive chasm between what the community expects and demands and what is delivered by the courts. "We need to stop making excuses and we need to toughen the hell up." Then you have senior police officers like Assistant Commissioner Robert Hill last week said Victorians were feeling unsafe and frustrated amid the ongoing crime crisis.He indicated police were frustrated too and "There is an unacceptable level of crime occurring in the state of Victoria. Our police members are doing a magnificent job, but we can't be everywhere," he said. He said appropriate consequences for wrongdoers would act as a decent deterrent. Then looking at community programs for young offenders you find the Government claiming they have increased funding to these agencies but Blake Edwards from The Youth Junction, a youth crime prevention organisation based in Sunshine in Victoria's West, said the service and partner organisations have had their funding reduced in recent years. He said at least 19 full-time roles working in youth case management and crime prevention initiatives had been cut across those organisations, which he estimated would impact 800 young people. "What we're seeing at the moment is a small number of young people committing a large number of crimes," he said. "So when we start taking away funding for the young people who are at risk of entering the justice system … my concern is that that small number who are committing a large number of crimes will grow substantially. "When there's 800 young people that no longer can access services in Melbourne's west, that certainly is concerning." He said the inconsistency in funding for crime prevention programs was also resulting in "poor outcomes for everybody". "When you're working with highly skilled, highly experienced practitioners, who are providing services on the ground, it means that they never have job security," he said. "It means that they are often leaving positions with three to six months of funding still left."
So IMO the system to deal with these issues is a mess with not much co-ordination and the machete bins etc are not really where the problem is and the affected parties are not on the same page. re: The Bins....I think the problem is all the decent folk will hand in their machetes/large knives etc but the smaller group of offenders wont and the idea is compromised by other States not having the same laws nation wide and the police cant control those who want to purchase them out of Victoria or by other shady means.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: shawny on October 26, 2025, 04:24:45 pm
Are you actually comparing the success of Howards guns laws with Jacinta machete bin debacle?
And the 'cost' of implementing this totally useless policy was a staggering $13M - pls dont try and downplay it by saying the 'bins actual cost' was $2400 as that just makes the whole thing even worse! HTF do they 'waste' over $12M of OUR money on this rubbish. All while cutting hospitals funding.
How many potholes does 12M fix? Disgusting governance whichever way you look at it.
I did a firearms and prohibited weapons course last weekend. The VicPol officers presenting have a very different view of the machete ban and see it as $13M well spent. They are actually dealing with machete crime, but what would they know?
I’m exempted from the ban by the way, but I prefer to use other implements.
sorry this is just rubbish talk.
i have quite a few police officers in the family and all jave the same thoughts and that is the current goverment is completely at odds with reality.
love to know honestly ‘how many’ officers actually gave you that opinion.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: madbluboy on October 26, 2025, 04:37:37 pm
You could not hand one back with 0 recourse. Knife wielders will just pick up another sharp blade of a different size. Maybe something like a tomahawk axe for gardening and chopping wood.
Its not like the gun thing. Guns have a single purpose. To shoot.
The bins are simply about optics.
I found some crazy looking mini axe in my mum's shed the other week. Looked like a viking weapon, she bought it off amazon to cut the branches off of some trees.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 26, 2025, 06:10:55 pm
I did a firearms and prohibited weapons course last weekend. The VicPol officers presenting have a very different view of the machete ban and see it as $13M well spent. They are actually dealing with machete crime, but what would they know?
I’m exempted from the ban by the way, but I prefer to use other implements.
sorry this is just rubbish talk.
i have quite a few police officers in the family and all jave the same thoughts and that is the current goverment is completely at odds with reality.
love to know honestly ‘how many’ officers actually gave you that opinion.
I suspect we all have a few police officers in the family. My late brother left as a detective sergeant and I was a military policeman and held an enforcement role throughout my civilian career. My cousin recently retired as a police dog handler. His sister was a policewoman for a while. My brother in law’s step daughters are policewomen. One of the officers killed in the Eastern Freeway tragedy was my nephew. Several members of my RSL branch are serving or former police officers and the local police regularly attend our meetings. Four mates from the Jeep Club are serving police officers and an old school friend who I occasionally catch up with recently retired with the rank of Inspector.
Of course, they don’t all have the same opinions but getting machetes and edged weapons off the streets is a priority for most.
Two police officers presented at the course and one spoke about the machete ban.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: cookie2 on October 26, 2025, 06:22:27 pm
Where do you stop though. Machetes are ugly weapons no doubt but just looking around the kitchen or garage there are some pretty fearsome alternatives. The problem goes way beyond the choice and availability of a particular weapon.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: kruddler on October 26, 2025, 07:49:28 pm
Where do you stop though. Machetes are ugly weapons no doubt but just looking around the kitchen or garage there are some pretty fearsome alternatives. The problem goes way beyond the choice and availability of a particular weapon.
Yep.
Its all about optics from the government. Look we made it safer. Meanwhile, large kitchen knives and butchers cleavers crime skyrockets instead.
I've seen more than my fair share of horror movies to know that anything can be used as a weapon.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 26, 2025, 08:04:43 pm
Where do you stop though. Machetes are ugly weapons no doubt but just looking around the kitchen or garage there are some pretty fearsome alternatives. The problem goes way beyond the choice and availability of a particular weapon.
Exactly Cookie - it's the people wielding the machetes that need to be dealt with. However, making it hard for them to get their hands on machetes, swords, knives, firearms, etc is part of the solution. Few, if any, social problems can be solved with just one preventative measure.
It's illegal to sell any knife to someone under 18 and it's illegal to carry any knife - even a multi-tool - unless you have a valid reason to do so, a chef taking his knives to work for example. That stops the law-abiding folk but may not stop the crooks. Fines and gaol time will discourage them as may family and peer pressure, education programs and proactive policing.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 28, 2025, 04:55:15 pm
From the HS ‘We need more prisons’: Pat, 76, woke with armed thugs inside her Brighton home A brave Brighton grandmother has described the moment she confronted two knife-wielding men inside her loungeroom in the latest Bayside home invasion — and issued a plea for the state to get the crime crisis under control.
A 76 year old lady, come on guys. This farken beyond a joke now.
But nah, Jacinta says it's all good, nothing to see here Pat. Get back in your box.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: dodge on October 28, 2025, 05:25:20 pm
Obviously, a 76 year old is vulnerable, but shouldn't be the driver for outrage. Yes, she will be affected in several different ways which may make her life difficult (eg fear of going out, recurring flashbacks, general feeling of being unsafe in her own home etc).
We have gone through several times on the site about solutions - prevention and rehab programs, stronger initial penalties and stronger consequences for broken penalties eg bail.
Then it is about funding and real effectiveness of these solutions - jail can be school to become a less worse crook.
The new Chief seems to be strong on prevention - more police presence on the streets and education. Be interesting to see the effect of the new bail laws that have just come into operation - I don't know what they are.
This all takes time. It won't be solved tomorrow.
Will it make a difference? Dunno. Youth crime seems to be much more brazen now - offenders don't care if there are alarms or cameras, whether it is 3am or 3pm, who sees them, whether there is anyone home etc. It will take time to turn this around.
The Liberal policy seems to be Jack's law (greater search powers on the street), rehab (school, post offending programs, mentoring), and if bail is broken, a holiday courtesy of the King is awaiting. Cynical me thinks that this won't make much difference and is a long way in the future.
Curious as to what it actually was or is that lead to the current situation - knowing what it is can help lead to the solution.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 28, 2025, 05:30:02 pm
Obviously, a 76 year old is vulnerable, but shouldn't be the driver for outrage. Yes, she will be affected in several different ways which may make her life difficult (eg fear of going out, recurring flashbacks, general feeling of being unsafe in her own home etc).
We have gone through several times on the site about solutions - prevention and rehab programs, stronger initial penalties and stronger consequences for broken penalties eg bail.
Then it is about funding and real effectiveness of these solutions - jail can be school to become a less worse crook.
The new Chief seems to be strong on prevention - more police presence on the streets and education. Be interesting to see the effect of the new bail laws that have just come into operation - I don't know what they are.
This all takes time. It won't be solved tomorrow.
Will it make a difference? Dunno. Youth crime seems to be much more brazen now - offenders don't care if there are alarms or cameras, whether it is 3am or 3pm, who sees them, whether there is anyone home etc. It will take time to turn this around.
The Liberal policy seems to be Jack's law (greater search powers on the street), rehab (school, post offending programs, mentoring), and if bail is broken, a holiday courtesy of the King is awaiting. Cynical me thinks that this won't make much difference and is a long way in the future.
Curious as to what it actually was or is that lead to the current situation - knowing what it is can help lead to the solution.
1. Organised crime gangs using youths to do the dirty work, mainly stealing high end cars to be used in subsequent crimes. They use kids because they know when they get caught, they are immediately released over and over again. 2. Youth Gangs - Imbeciles here copying the US gang culture, it's stepped up to another level (in both prevalence and level of violence) compared to what it was in years gone by.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 28, 2025, 05:43:24 pm
From the HS ‘We need more prisons’: Pat, 76, woke with armed thugs inside her Brighton home A brave Brighton grandmother has described the moment she confronted two knife-wielding men inside her loungeroom in the latest Bayside home invasion — and issued a plea for the state to get the crime crisis under control.
A 76 year old lady, come on guys. This farken beyond a joke now.
But nah, Jacinta says it's all good, nothing to see here Pat. Get back in your box.
Not a huge fan of Bec Judd but she was right pointing to a crime wave that had hit those wealthy bayside suburbs a couple of years ago and was calling for more police action. Dan Andrews dismissed her fears and it led to more private security firms being employed to look after those affected areas and it has that Sth African feel to it with their gated communities and clearly residents are having to take matters into their own hands which never ends well and if you want to live in those wealthy areas security is going to be an added cost unfortunately. When violence is used and weapons involved then Im calling that adult crimes are deserving of adult time in jail...yep more jails required unfortunately.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Lods on October 28, 2025, 06:00:44 pm
While I'm bit reluctant to go here it is important....
There is often a reluctance to discuss ethnicity in terms of young offenders. Personally I see that reluctance as a barrier to solutions. The problem is some use it to demonise a group, but the issues of adaption to a completely different culture are extremely difficult for some young people, especially those exposed to the horrors in their countries of origin.
We often try to downplay that cultural aspect for political correctness, when it is at the heart of the issue. And the support and positive role models of elder members of that ethnic group can have a much greater impact than those enforcing rules and laws.
Youngsters, especially those with different cultural backgrounds tend to bond to like peers. I've spoken before about 'cultural waves' of different ethnic backgrounds in juvenile detention centres over the years and how they peak with immigration trends and then dissipate as that community settles and adapts.
Any solutions must include a total input from all stakeholders. It takes a village to raise a child.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: madbluboy on October 29, 2025, 06:38:15 am
Some punk tried to break into my mum's 2 hours ago.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 29, 2025, 08:06:39 am
Some punk tried to break into my mum's 2 hours ago.
Sorry to hear that MBB, hope she is ok and not too traumatized. Sad when older folk are not safe in their own home and when the system is weighted in favour of the punks it's not going to get any better as most of us know now.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: madbluboy on October 29, 2025, 09:09:35 am
He was spooked by the ring camera and was trying to cover his face and open the door at the same time. Mum was delayed in looking at her phone by about 5 minutes as she was asleep so he was long gone. Hopefully sometime soon he gets into the wrong house.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Baggers on October 29, 2025, 10:06:21 am
He was spooked by the ring camera and was trying to cover his face and open the door at the same time. Mum was delayed in looking at her phone by about 5 minutes as she was asleep so he was long gone. Hopefully sometime soon he gets into the wrong house.
I must confess, MBB, that I find myself really angered by what your mum had to endure. And other older folks in our community confronted by similar. When a society cannot care for its aged and infirmed (and children) properly, there is a major problem.
If the state govt doesn't come good with an increased police presence, and knowing how ex military folks think, we may well see vigilante groups pop up.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Professer E on October 29, 2025, 11:02:12 am
More low life filth polluting our once great state
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Thryleon on October 29, 2025, 11:11:25 am
The major problem with law enforcement is that the only time you come across any component of it its in the form of a stationary speed camera parked on the side of the road in an suv.
Beyond that you'll see some psa's but there arent enough cops on the street to be a visual deterrent.
Add a growing gap between the have and have nots. The young people have nothing to aspire to. What are they working for? Home ownership? Good luck. They might be able to buy something somewhere far 50kms from the cbd. Careers? They'll spend their life commuting to go to work in a job they probably dont like (like the rest of us really, but at least we dont have a 2 hour commute in one direction to get there). Thats not to condone what is happening but all of a sudden a life of crime might actually be more fun.
Those moaning about our once great state as well, might want to have a think about how far away from Melbourne previous generations were situated. Now its beyond far. Go out to officer, mickleham, past Caroline Springs. Its not like what hawthorn used to be ten minutes from Toorak and south Yarra.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 29, 2025, 11:18:33 am
I don't wish to detract from the awful experience MBB's mother endured. It must have been terrifying and the scumbag should be dealt with very harshly. I just want to raise another example of lawlessness that could have had tragic consequences.
Grubb Road runs from Ocean Grove to Drysdale and runs through residential areas, industrial and retail zones, and agricultural land. It is two lanes, has intersections with traffic lights, roundabouts and stop and give way signs and the speed limit varies from 50-80kph depending on the surroundings. It is a busy road and always has a constant stream of traffic in both directions. I travel on it almost daily.
Police recently observed a Haval Jolion travelling at 82kph in a 60kph zone on Grubb Road. When the police attempted to pull the Haval over, the driver sped off, reaching a top speed of 144kph in the 80kph zone. The Haval overtook when unsafe and forced oncoming traffic to take evasive action.
The driver was apprehended and has been charged on summons for driving at a dangerous speed, dangerous driving while being pursued by police as well as other traffic offenses. The driver was a woman in her twenties.
Apart from the utter disregard for the safety of other motorists and the futility of attempting to flee after a traffic infringement - particularly in a Haval Jolion - exceeding the speed limit by 60kph should incur an immediate 12 month automatic license suspension. Perhaps this did happen and the summons is to address the other serious traffic infringements but I really don't want to share the road with this irresponsible moron ... ever!
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Professer E on October 29, 2025, 11:25:00 am
I'm tired of excuses for perpetrators. Break into a property.....castle law. Drive 60 km over the speed limit....do time. No more excuses, no more touchy feely bullcrap. If you can't take responsibility for your actions, face real consequences.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Thryleon on October 29, 2025, 11:34:28 am
Worst part of speeding is, time it wrong amd you get a fine. I got one recently cost 300 dollars for 54 in a 50 zone on a road that used to be 60. Stationary 4wd, Saturday night 11.30pm on the way home. No excuse, but I was on the way home from dinner and Bolton Street is the only stretch thats 50km from templestowe to Diamond Creek road. Used to be 60km. Less of this please. Not helpful to anyone but the government purse.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: cookie2 on October 29, 2025, 12:28:11 pm
Worst part of speeding is, time it wrong amd you get a fine. I got one recently cost 300 dollars for 54 in a 50 zone on a road that used to be 60. Stationary 4wd, Saturday night 11.30pm on the way home. No excuse, but I was on the way home from dinner and Bolton Street is the only stretch thats 50km from templestowe to Diamond Creek road. Used to be 60km. Less of this please. Not helpful to anyone but the government purse.
Used to live near there and Bolton St was and still is a farce. After years of squabbling between Nillumbik and State it was finally revamped over a very long period of time for no improvement imo and the 50 limit remains.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 29, 2025, 01:09:23 pm
Standard of driving in Melbourne has got worse, everyday you drive to are having to think ahead, anticipate poor driving and be over cautious . Nearly got hit in a roundabout today carrying one of my grandsons by an Nissan X Trail that didn't stop and just plowed through at speed. Parking is my other gripe, why can't people park in the bay between the lines instead of on the line or encroaching on the other bay.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: shawny on October 29, 2025, 01:43:19 pm
Like the lying Dictator before her Jacinta is not willing to listen or acknowledge anything is wrong despite the statistics clearly showing how bad things are getting across the state on majority of the important issues such as the souring crime rates amongst our youth.
They closed Malmsbury youth justice centre 2 years ago and now are forced to re-opening it yet when quizzed they said 'it was the correct decision 2 years ago to close it and its the correct decision now to re open it'
Very sad state of affairs we are forced to live in when you have such incompetent so called 'leaders' in power.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on October 29, 2025, 02:37:51 pm
Malmsbury, one of the best bakeries in the state and the hottest speed gun in town, made Doc Holiday look slow on the draw!
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: kruddler on October 29, 2025, 05:24:51 pm
Worst part of speeding is, time it wrong amd you get a fine. I got one recently cost 300 dollars for 54 in a 50 zone on a road that used to be 60. Stationary 4wd, Saturday night 11.30pm on the way home. No excuse, but I was on the way home from dinner and Bolton Street is the only stretch thats 50km from templestowe to Diamond Creek road. Used to be 60km. Less of this please. Not helpful to anyone but the government purse.
Bolton Street, the road that is up and down like a roller coaster and they had a radar there? That's BS.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: shawny on October 30, 2025, 08:40:56 am
Appalling, divisive and racist policy. Hoping this is not true
Yes, if true, a policy or triage stupidity. But I do muse to myself... Over how many decades were 'whites' prioritized over indigenous folks!
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on October 30, 2025, 10:51:51 am
Another nothing burger "scoop". How shocking that a google search reveals this story shows up only in the Newscorpse press and other egregiously trashy tabloids.
The article gives a perfectly clear and reasonable explanation for the policy, but then you'd have to move beyond the rage bait headline and sensationalist wording and reporting of the article.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Thryleon on October 30, 2025, 11:27:53 am
Appalling, divisive and racist policy. Hoping this is not true
Yes, if true, a policy or triage stupidity. But I do muse to myself... Over how many decades were 'whites' prioritized over indigenous folks!
two wrongs dont make a right Baggers.
"The triaging of patients should be done on medical need, not based on the colour of your skin,”
Direct quite from the article. Short sharp and to the point. Category 3 patients are usually those who rock up with a broken leg. Not urgent, in pain, so giving them priority over other cat 3, 4, 5 patients is not necessarily going to cause life threatening issues, but it will fast track them over folks who have been waiting. Where this becomes problematic is when the sla for cat 4 and 5 patients is not being met.
Also this doesnt close an equality gap it creates one. The point of racism is to eliminate the difference not create gaps.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Thryleon on October 30, 2025, 11:29:19 am
Another nothing burger "scoop". How shocking that a google search reveals this story shows up only in the Newscorpse press and other egregiously trashy tabloids.
The article gives a perfectly clear and reasonable explanation for the policy, but then you'd have to move beyond the rage bait headline and sensationalist wording and reporting of the article.
does that mean left leaning papers just dont consider it newsworthy?
Beware the echo chamber.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on October 30, 2025, 11:35:37 am
does that mean left leaning papers just dont consider it newsworthy?
Beware the echo chamber.
Newscorpse has a very well understood and documented approach to "news." It's not really a left or right issue. To characterize news outlets as simply left or right is IMO a mischaracterization.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 30, 2025, 12:03:24 pm
It would be wrong to triage patients on the basis of ethnicity ... unless there was an evidence-based reason for doing so.
The evidence is that Indigenous patients were waiting much longer than non-Indigenous patients at St Vincents and the hospital took action to improve their access to health care.
St Vincents in Sydney has a similar policy and "the rate of incomplete treatment among Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander patients fell from 19.5% to 5.2% of presentations - a five-fold decrease. No decrease in benchmarked provision of care levels for non-Aboriginal patients was seen after the implementation."
There hasn't been a racist outburst over the Sydney St Vincents policy and procedures, perhaps because it has been explained in simple terms.
You can read about it here: https://www.safetyandquality.gov.au/our-work/healthcare-variation/user-guide-reviewing-clinical-variation/case-studies/reducing-incomplete-treatment-ed-aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-patients
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: tonyo on October 30, 2025, 01:06:45 pm
does that mean left leaning papers just dont consider it newsworthy?
Beware the echo chamber.
Newscorpse has a very well understood and documented approach to "news." It's not really a left or right issue. To characterize news outlets as simply left or right is IMO a mischaracterization.
Newscorp is becoming increasingly biased - they stopped being a media organisation long ago, and now specialise in trying to manipulate consumers into their world view.
When does news end, and opinion begin? That line is very blurry in the halls of Newscorp organisations......
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 30, 2025, 03:25:19 pm
It’s also worth noting that Indigenous Australians make up less than 4% of the population. Even if they are over represented in public hospital presentations, triaging every Indigenous patient as Category 1 would have minimal impact on the quality and promptness of the care provided to non-Indigenous patients.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: shawny on October 30, 2025, 04:30:48 pm
Those who won't allow to be seen as leaning one way or another but like clockwork claim 'fake news' on all matters against their beliefs.
If you want to debunk the link i put on go right ahead but the discussion i raised has been all over the news on several platforms - as we know certain sections of the media go quiet on matters against their followers bias. It's 100% happens on both sides of politics but its assuming how old mate Trump was ridiculed for calling out media outlets as 'Fake news' yet those disputing his calls are the first to do exactly the same when the shoe is on the other foot.
I quickly googled the topic and there is pages and pages and more pages of different sources all discussing it - are they all fake?
It’s also worth noting that Indigenous Australians make up less than 4% of the population. Even if they are over-represented in public hospital presentations, triaging every Indigenous patient as Category 1 would have minimal impact on the quality and promptness of the care provided to non-Indigenous patients.
That's no excuse and not the point.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on October 30, 2025, 05:28:33 pm
"Those" who think that such distinguished news outlets as The Daily Mail, 2GB, The Spectator, Herald Sun, Fox News, Sky News, and distinguished individuals like Douglas Murray, are going to provide a broad spectrum of opinion, are going to interrogate the data legitimately, are representing some kind of legitimate discourse,.......Maybe "those" should actually listen to and read those discussions first.
"Those" who are very concerned about pot holes and the slim possibility that a brown person may, with genuine reason, be given preferential medical treatment, because in a properly functioning, supposedly Christian society, giving assistance and offering preferential options to the poorest and most vulnerable among us, is in fact a good thing and to be encouraged, not to be used as fodder for rage baiting.
Maybe "those" should sit this one out.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 30, 2025, 05:46:24 pm
It’s also worth noting that Indigenous Australians make up less than 4% of the population. Even if they are over-represented in public hospital presentations, triaging every Indigenous patient as Category 1 would have minimal impact on the quality and promptness of the care provided to non-Indigenous patients.
That's no excuse and not the point.
It’s not meant to be an excuse because good public policy doesn’t need to be excused.
It is the point though because hospitals have taken steps to address a failure to care for a small and vulnerable cohort without any negative impacts on the care provided to everyone else.
Don’t be sucked in by the righteous outrage of the Murdoch media. Find the facts … it’s not that hard.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 30, 2025, 06:15:35 pm
It’s not meant to be an excuse because good public policy doesn’t need to be excused.
It is the point though because hospitals have taken steps to address a failure to care for a small and vulnerable cohort without any negative impacts on the care provided to everyone else.
Don’t be sucked in by the righteous outrage of the Murdoch media. Find the facts … it’s not that hard.
Longer waiting times are a negative impact for non indigenous patients as will the extra load that other Hospital ED's like Royal Melbourne will have when patients bypass St Vincents for fear of extra long waiting periods. This is Victoria, Australia not Sth Africa, Jacinta doing her best impression of PW Botha and creating an Apartheid fix where we have skin colour as the criteria for when citizens receive treatment shows how far this state has slipped into the abyss. Whats next, donor organs being issued to patients based on colour or race?
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: madbluboy on October 30, 2025, 06:19:55 pm
Obviously if you are white don't go to emergency there.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: shawny on October 30, 2025, 06:43:24 pm
It’s not meant to be an excuse because good public policy doesn’t need to be excused.
It is the point though because hospitals have taken steps to address a failure to care for a small and vulnerable cohort without any negative impacts on the care provided to everyone else.
Don’t be sucked in by the righteous outrage of the Murdoch media. Find the facts … it’s not that hard.
And where do i find the 'not that hard facts' that is going to confirm my original post was all made up by Murdoch media?
Please enlighten me.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on October 30, 2025, 06:53:34 pm
The whole atricle is worth a read, but I highlight the following :
The organisation also noted that efforts to make emergency departments culturally safe began under Victoria's previous Liberal Government through the Koolin Balit strategy, the first to explicitly address racism in public hospitals.
"VACCHO applauded that Liberal Government when Koolin Balit was launched, and we remind the current Liberal Party that it was a legacy to be proud of," the spokesperson said, calling the Opposition's recent comments a "shameful betrayal of a legacy of bipartisanship"..............................
VACCHO's Executive Director of Population Health, Abe Ropitini, said targeted action to improve Aboriginal cultural safety in emergency departments began under the previous Liberal Government - a legacy "they should be proud of, because it was a serious commitment to Closing the Gap".
"It is disappointing they have traded in that legacy for race baiting and punching down on our most vulnerable people," Mr Ropitini said.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: shawny on October 30, 2025, 06:56:33 pm
The whole atricle is worth a read, but I highlight the following :
The organisation also noted that efforts to make emergency departments culturally safe began under Victoria's previous Liberal Government through the Koolin Balit strategy, the first to explicitly address racism in public hospitals.
"VACCHO applauded that Liberal Government when Koolin Balit was launched, and we remind the current Liberal Party that it was a legacy to be proud of," the spokesperson said, calling the Opposition's recent comments a "shameful betrayal of a legacy of bipartisanship"..............................
VACCHO's Executive Director of Population Health, Abe Ropitini, said targeted action to improve Aboriginal cultural safety in emergency departments began under the previous Liberal Government - a legacy "they should be proud of, because it was a serious commitment to Closing the Gap".
"It is disappointing they have traded in that legacy for race baiting and punching down on our most vulnerable people," Mr Ropitini said.
You shut down 7 different media platforms being Murdoch click bait rubbish 'in your eyes' then go on to quote from an indigenous media source on an indigenous favored policy?
I think thats its from me on this matter.
Really?
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on October 30, 2025, 07:07:18 pm
You shut down 7 different media platforms being Murdoch click bait rubbish 'in your eyes' then go on to quote from an indigenous media source on an indigenous favored policy?
I think thats its from me on this matter.
Really?
Did you read the article ?
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on October 30, 2025, 07:21:18 pm
It is the point though because hospitals have taken steps to address a failure to care for a small and vulnerable cohort without any negative impacts on the care provided to everyone else.
The only concern I have over this is the question of who is indigenous.
In my direct personal experience, I know of people claiming Federal benefits because the local mob declared them as members of the mob, despite not have a drop of indigenous heritage. Then another segment of the same mob use access to those benefits as a form of blackmail, skimming "a donation" of the top in return for silence.
If we leave the classification of such matters to hearsay and opinion, the dark side of humanity will prevail, it has to be more formal.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 30, 2025, 07:54:14 pm
It is the point though because hospitals have taken steps to address a failure to care for a small and vulnerable cohort without any negative impacts on the care provided to everyone else.
The only concern I have over this is the question of who is indigenous.
In my direct personal experience, I know of people claiming Federal benefits because the local mob declared them as members of the mob, despite not have a drop of indigenous heritage. Then another segment of the same mob use access to those benefits as a form of blackmail, skimming "a donation" of the top in return for silence.
If we leave the classification of such matters to hearsay and opinion, the dark side of humanity will prevail, it has to be more formal.
LP, you know that I worked in Indigenous affairs for over 30 years and that's not how the system works. For a start, what "Federal benefits" would they be claiming? With some exceptions, like Abstudy, Indigenous Australians access the same Centrelink payments as everyone else. Skimming Centrelink payments wouldn't be a very lucrative form of blackmail.
In my experience, the mob is very quick to expose anyone who falsely claims to be Indigenous. For example, see Michael Mansell's rejection of Bruce Pascoe's claim of Tasmanian Aboriginal ancestry: https://tasmaniantimes.com/2020/01/bruce-pascoe-is-not-aboriginal/
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 30, 2025, 08:09:11 pm
It’s not meant to be an excuse because good public policy doesn’t need to be excused.
Do you really believe this - If Trump did a similar thing would you call it good policy. Don't bother answering that.
And btw racism is racism regardless of which skin colour is the one being discriminated against
I won't bother answering your Taco question because we have another thread dedicated to the shenanigans of the senile, misogynistic, convicted felon who is making such a balls up of his second go at playing at being POTUS.
Yes, racism isn't confined to folk of a particular skin colour, it's much more than that.
"Racism is the process by which systems and policies, actions and attitudes create inequitable opportunities and outcomes for people based on race. Racism is more than just prejudice in thought or action. It occurs when this prejudice – whether individual or institutional – is accompanied by the power to discriminate against, oppress or limit the rights of others."
The key point there is that racism is prejudice by those with power over others, such as that exercised by the Chinese government against the Uyghurs and Tibetans. Ensuring that an ethnic minority has equal access to health care is affirmative action, not racism.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Baggers on October 30, 2025, 08:25:15 pm
Yes, if true, a policy or triage stupidity. But I do muse to myself... Over how many decades were 'whites' prioritized over indigenous folks!
two wrongs dont make a right Baggers.
"The triaging of patients should be done on medical need, not based on the colour of your skin,”
Direct quite from the article. Short sharp and to the point. Category 3 patients are usually those who rock up with a broken leg. Not urgent, in pain, so giving them priority over other cat 3, 4, 5 patients is not necessarily going to cause life threatening issues, but it will fast track them over folks who have been waiting. Where this becomes problematic is when the sla for cat 4 and 5 patients is not being met.
Also this doesnt close an equality gap it creates one. The point of racism is to eliminate the difference not create gaps.
I think you misunderstood my tongue in cheek post. Not for one second would I support any notion of triage favouring anything other than medical need.
Like Pauly I read the article which stunk of beat up, manipulation, click-bait and any number of shallow, foolish motives. Pardon the pun, but sickening 'journalism.'
My tongue in cheek comment was in relation to if it were true... the outrage is huge... and pregnant with hypocrisy when considering treatment of indigenous folks. Simply a musing on my part.
Yes, triage, I emphasize, is about prioritizing patients in terms of needs... not hair colour, personal wealth, religion, race, ear size or any other irrelevancy.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Thryleon on October 30, 2025, 09:33:53 pm
Do you really believe this - If Trump did a similar thing would you call it good policy. Don't bother answering that.
And btw racism is racism regardless of which skin colour is the one being discriminated against
I won't bother answering your Taco question because we have another thread dedicated to the shenanigans of the senile, misogynistic, convicted felon who is making such a balls up of his second go at playing at being POTUS.
Yes, racism isn't confined to folk of a particular skin colour, it's much more than that.
"Racism is the process by which systems and policies, actions and attitudes create inequitable opportunities and outcomes for people based on race. Racism is more than just prejudice in thought or action. It occurs when this prejudice – whether individual or institutional – is accompanied by the power to discriminate against, oppress or limit the rights of others."
The key point there is that racism is prejudice by those with power over others, such as that exercised by the Chinese government against the Uyghurs and Tibetans. Ensuring that an ethnic minority has equal access to health care is affirmative action, not racism.
this is not affirmative action.
If i walk in to this ED and an indigenous bloke walkS in, both with category 4 classification, EXACT SAME ISSUE, he goes first because he's indigenous even though I was triaged before him. He gets upgraded to category 3.
Effectively they're fast tracked based on race. Seems fair....
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 30, 2025, 09:59:56 pm
I won't bother answering your Taco question because we have another thread dedicated to the shenanigans of the senile, misogynistic, convicted felon who is making such a balls up of his second go at playing at being POTUS.
Yes, racism isn't confined to folk of a particular skin colour, it's much more than that.
"Racism is the process by which systems and policies, actions and attitudes create inequitable opportunities and outcomes for people based on race. Racism is more than just prejudice in thought or action. It occurs when this prejudice – whether individual or institutional – is accompanied by the power to discriminate against, oppress or limit the rights of others."
The key point there is that racism is prejudice by those with power over others, such as that exercised by the Chinese government against the Uyghurs and Tibetans. Ensuring that an ethnic minority has equal access to health care is affirmative action, not racism.
this is not affirmative action.
If i walk in to this ED and an indigenous bloke walkS in, both with category 4 classification, EXACT SAME ISSUE, he goes first because he's indigenous even though I was triaged before him. He gets upgraded to category 3.
Effectively they're fast tracked based on race. Seems fair....
He is fast tracked because his chances of a good outcome are lower than yours, because of his race.
But what are the chances of an Indigenous Australian walking into an ED at the same time as you? I bet that it will never happen in your hopefully very long lifetime.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: northernblue on October 30, 2025, 10:59:24 pm
I won't bother answering your Taco question because we have another thread dedicated to the shenanigans of the senile, misogynistic, convicted felon who is making such a balls up of his second go at playing at being POTUS.
Yes, racism isn't confined to folk of a particular skin colour, it's much more than that.
"Racism is the process by which systems and policies, actions and attitudes create inequitable opportunities and outcomes for people based on race. Racism is more than just prejudice in thought or action. It occurs when this prejudice – whether individual or institutional – is accompanied by the power to discriminate against, oppress or limit the rights of others."
The key point there is that racism is prejudice by those with power over others, such as that exercised by the Chinese government against the Uyghurs and Tibetans. Ensuring that an ethnic minority has equal access to health care is affirmative action, not racism.
this is not affirmative action.
If i walk in to this ED and an indigenous bloke walkS in, both with category 4 classification, EXACT SAME ISSUE, he goes first because he's indigenous even though I was triaged before him. He gets upgraded to category 3.
Effectively they're fast tracked based on race. Seems fair....
Mate, they die younger, they live sicker lives. Come up and visit me and you’ll see that 40-70% of the NT mob are wrapped in filthy bandages despite the medical professions best efforts. We are not discussing intelligent well educated and articulate people like say Ernie Dingo here, we are discussing the downtrodden. If you and he presented simultaneously you would both recieve the same treatment as (relatively) young fit healthy men, of this I have no doubt. Certainly so here in the Territory.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on October 31, 2025, 07:56:45 am
The article I presented earlier from the NI Times makes clear this policy has been a bipartisan initiative starting with the last Liberal government, which was 2014. Which means that in some format (discussion, planning, implementation) it has been around for over a decade. And in that time, no one noticed the grave injustice being proposed / inflicted upon non indigenous people. And the reason no one noticed is because there is nothing to notice. Just another beat up, nothing trying desperately to be something, based on racist fear mongering, lies, manipulation of facts, and the stoking of hatred and division. Just like the Voice referendum.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 31, 2025, 08:57:33 am
Let's hear from St Vincents:
"Hi everyone, Many of you will be aware of media coverage over the last few days related to our Emergency Department (ED) and our efforts to deliver fairer health outcomes for First Nations patients. I wanted to share a brief message with you to explain what we’re doing and why. Across almost every indicator, First Nations Australians experience worse health outcomes than non-Indigenous Australians. Research conducted in St Vincent’s Melbourne’s ED showed First Nations patients were three times more likely to leave without being seen than non-Indigenous patients. First Nations patients were also waiting, on average, three times longer compared to non-Indigenous patients. But our research also showed that First Nations patients were more likely to remain engaged with their care if seen within their first hour in the ED. We’ve been working to address this issue for many years, but in April 2024, we took a new approach and implemented what’s known as a Minimum Category Three Triage policy. The idea is straightforward: in an ED, patients assigned as being ‘Category Three’ receive medical assessment and start their treatment within 30 minutes of arrival. Under our policy, we now assign a minimum Category 3 to all First Nations patients so that they begin their treatment promptly and to minimise the risk of disengagement and poorer health outcomes.
The results have been outstanding. Since introduction, we have successfully closed the gap in ED wait times between First Nations and non-Indigenous patients. While there is still much work to do, that is something to celebrate. Let me be very clear about what this approach does not do… It has not affected overall wait times in the ED. Analysis of our approach – which concerns only a small number of First Nations patients in the ED each day – shows it has had no impact on overall ED flow. Patients presenting with a serious or life-threatening emergency – regardless of their background – will always be seen first. That's what ED triage is designed to do. We can do both. We’ve arranged our resources and processes so that the small number of First Nations patients in our ED don’t have their care delayed for longer than 30 minutes, while also making sure that the most urgent cases are still seen as a priority. We've closed the gap between two groups without negatively affecting either. This is what good healthcare looks like. The St Vincent’s mission has always been about helping people who face barriers to accessing quality healthcare. That’s who we are. It’s what defines us. And it’s core to this approach. I’m proud of what we’ve been able to achieve. I’m proud of our Aboriginal Health Liaison Team, our Emergency Department team, and all our staff who continue to show leadership through initiatives like this. While there has been much said over the past few days, please know that we will continue to advocate for what is right and for evidence-based healthcare. And if you’ve found the last few days upsetting, please approach your manager, colleagues, or our EAP service should you need assistance.
Kind regards, Nicole"
Evidence-based healthcare that has closed the gap between two groups without negatively affecting either? That's got to be grounds for racist outrage!
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: northernblue on October 31, 2025, 09:20:23 am
"Hi everyone, Many of you will be aware of media coverage over the last few days related to our Emergency Department (ED) and our efforts to deliver fairer health outcomes for First Nations patients. I wanted to share a brief message with you to explain what we’re doing and why. Across almost every indicator, First Nations Australians experience worse health outcomes than non-Indigenous Australians. Research conducted in St Vincent’s Melbourne’s ED showed First Nations patients were three times more likely to leave without being seen than non-Indigenous patients. First Nations patients were also waiting, on average, three times longer compared to non-Indigenous patients. But our research also showed that First Nations patients were more likely to remain engaged with their care if seen within their first hour in the ED. We’ve been working to address this issue for many years, but in April 2024, we took a new approach and implemented what’s known as a Minimum Category Three Triage policy. The idea is straightforward: in an ED, patients assigned as being ‘Category Three’ receive medical assessment and start their treatment within 30 minutes of arrival. Under our policy, we now assign a minimum Category 3 to all First Nations patients so that they begin their treatment promptly and to minimise the risk of disengagement and poorer health outcomes.
The results have been outstanding. Since introduction, we have successfully closed the gap in ED wait times between First Nations and non-Indigenous patients. While there is still much work to do, that is something to celebrate. Let me be very clear about what this approach does not do… It has not affected overall wait times in the ED. Analysis of our approach – which concerns only a small number of First Nations patients in the ED each day – shows it has had no impact on overall ED flow. Patients presenting with a serious or life-threatening emergency – regardless of their background – will always be seen first. That's what ED triage is designed to do. We can do both. We’ve arranged our resources and processes so that the small number of First Nations patients in our ED don’t have their care delayed for longer than 30 minutes, while also making sure that the most urgent cases are still seen as a priority. We've closed the gap between two groups without negatively affecting either. This is what good healthcare looks like. The St Vincent’s mission has always been about helping people who face barriers to accessing quality healthcare. That’s who we are. It’s what defines us. And it’s core to this approach. I’m proud of what we’ve been able to achieve. I’m proud of our Aboriginal Health Liaison Team, our Emergency Department team, and all our staff who continue to show leadership through initiatives like this. While there has been much said over the past few days, please know that we will continue to advocate for what is right and for evidence-based healthcare. And if you’ve found the last few days upsetting, please approach your manager, colleagues, or our EAP service should you need assistance.
Kind regards, Nicole"
Evidence-based healthcare that has closed the gap between two groups without negatively affecting either? That's got to be grounds for racist outrage!
I’m triggered… 🙄
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 31, 2025, 09:46:07 am
I should say that Nicole’s response is overdue. The weasel word responses from the Victorian Government have fanned the flames and they should have been on the front foot as soon as the Murdoch media sought to foment outrage.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Thryleon on October 31, 2025, 11:10:19 am
If i walk in to this ED and an indigenous bloke walkS in, both with category 4 classification, EXACT SAME ISSUE, he goes first because he's indigenous even though I was triaged before him. He gets upgraded to category 3.
Effectively they're fast tracked based on race. Seems fair....
Mate, they die younger, they live sicker lives. Come up and visit me and you’ll see that 40-70% of the NT mob are wrapped in filthy bandages despite the medical professions best efforts. We are not discussing intelligent well educated and articulate people like say Ernie Dingo here, we are discussing the downtrodden. If you and he presented simultaneously you would both recieve the same treatment as (relatively) young fit healthy men, of this I have no doubt. Certainly so here in the Territory.
st Vincent's is not solely in the NT.
So are we saying they dont want to wait like the rest of us are forced to?
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 31, 2025, 11:44:20 am
Mate, they die younger, they live sicker lives. Come up and visit me and you’ll see that 40-70% of the NT mob are wrapped in filthy bandages despite the medical professions best efforts. We are not discussing intelligent well educated and articulate people like say Ernie Dingo here, we are discussing the downtrodden. If you and he presented simultaneously you would both recieve the same treatment as (relatively) young fit healthy men, of this I have no doubt. Certainly so here in the Territory.
st Vincent's is not solely in the NT.
So are we saying they dont want to wait like the rest of us are forced to?
Did you miss “First Nations patients were also waiting, on average, three times longer compared to non-Indigenous patients.”?
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Thryleon on October 31, 2025, 12:12:47 pm
So are we saying they dont want to wait like the rest of us are forced to?
Did you miss “First Nations patients were also waiting, on average, three times longer compared to non-Indigenous patients.”?
I didnt miss this claim. In fact there is no way to substantiate that and its precisely what someone defending this move would say irrespective of whether or not its fair.
Thing is, why is that the case? Why are they waiting longer? Is it because the data is skewed by hospitals in areas where there is more indigenous people being treated than not?
More questions than answers out of the claim. So by doing this in metro hospitals they treat the minority as priority to paper over not enough health care institutions in remote communities where the majority of indigenous patients presents skewing the data?
Is that the right outcome? Or more manipulation of the books to satisfy criteria?
Ultimately i dont know how anyone can defend a policy where an ethnic group is treated differently to others for right or wrong reasons. Sounds like they cant be bothered fixing the real reasons the issue exists and are papering over the cracks to me.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: madbluboy on October 31, 2025, 12:26:40 pm
If St Vincent's were making indigenous wait 3 times longer because they're indigenous then they should be shut down.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on October 31, 2025, 12:46:33 pm
LP, you know that I worked in Indigenous affairs for over 30 years and that's not how the system works. For a start, what "Federal benefits" would they be claiming? With some exceptions, like Abstudy, Indigenous Australians access the same Centrelink payments as everyone else. Skimming Centrelink payments wouldn't be a very lucrative form of blackmail.
In my experience, the mob is very quick to expose anyone who falsely claims to be Indigenous. For example, see Michael Mansell's rejection of Bruce Pascoe's claim of Tasmanian Aboriginal ancestry: https://tasmaniantimes.com/2020/01/bruce-pascoe-is-not-aboriginal/
Yes, I understand all this, and I do not want to hijack this debate. My point is more about the elimination of subjectivity in the assessment, not whether or not it is actually needed.
If St Vincent's were making indigenous wait 3 times longer because they're indigenous then they should be shut down.
On the specific issue, like the St Vincent's study, there are stats and then there are damn stats and lies, which feeds back into my doubts. You can take the numbers and make them say whatever you want through flexible categorisation or cherry-picking categories that paint a picture towards your desired conclusion.
For example, I was made aware was one of the key reasons for waiting for treatment in general is alcohol abuse preventing immediate treatment. So if you have a small subset that is categorised differently because of the choice of category they will show up strongly despite there being no embedded systematic discrimination. The root of the problem is then not really the system, but the social driver that causes alcoholism. So if the group you analyse has a higher percentage representation in terms of presenting under the influence of alcohol they will show up strongly.
Alcohol is a great example because some ethic groups present with a greater percentage allergic to alcohol, if you analyse treatments that delayed or denied due to alcohol allergy, without listing the alcohol allergy as a cause, the numbers will show up as Asians being discriminated against.
Like most stats, the problems are not the numbers, but how the numbers get interpreted, the conclusions drawn and the politics. The sad thing is that the politicians and media know this, they just choose not to communicate it because clear explanations do not rate.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on October 31, 2025, 01:04:01 pm
You have one disadvantaged group whose health outcomes are improved because of this policy, and other advantaged groups whose health outcomes are the same as a result of this policy.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on October 31, 2025, 01:12:45 pm
You have one disadvantaged group whose health outcomes are improved because of this policy, and other advantaged groups whose health outcomes are the same as a result of this policy.
I don't think anyone is genuinely disadvantaged, but I also fear the reason for the change is not really a reason at all!
If we first subset the health study by alcoholics, then subset the alcoholics by ethnicity, we will see biases appear but they aren't or may not be genuine biases as they are created by the selection of categories. If you remove the alcoholism from the figures and present the remaining data you have manufactured a bias that appears social or racist.
However, it could be argued if you swiftly promote someone to admission who you cannot yet begin treating, you will potentially be consuming a bed waiting for the opportunity to treat. In this case maybe someone is disadvantaged, but at the bare minimum you have created waste and inefficiency.
I would think in a resource stretched system the case for the "good of the many" suggests greater throughput.
I could be even more cynical, and suggest administrators see this as a way of getting increased funding, they need more resources to maintain or improvement treatment levels in the face of a "systematic bias"! ;) The Admins certainly know politicians won't make decisions that negatively impact their constituency.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: northernblue on October 31, 2025, 03:10:15 pm
Mate, they die younger, they live sicker lives. Come up and visit me and you’ll see that 40-70% of the NT mob are wrapped in filthy bandages despite the medical professions best efforts. We are not discussing intelligent well educated and articulate people like say Ernie Dingo here, we are discussing the downtrodden. If you and he presented simultaneously you would both recieve the same treatment as (relatively) young fit healthy men, of this I have no doubt. Certainly so here in the Territory.
st Vincent's is not solely in the NT.
So are we saying they dont want to wait like the rest of us are forced to?
st V isn’t in the nt. What I’m saying is that if a white one and a black one present with the same problem the black one is more likely to die, statistically.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 31, 2025, 03:39:08 pm
So are we saying they dont want to wait like the rest of us are forced to?
st V isn’t in the nt. What I’m saying is that if a white one and a black one present with the same problem the black one is more likely to die, statistically.
That's a presumption based on General rule of thumb and I accept that and the statistics but there will be cases when the white fella might have a poor medical history himself which isn't going to be apparent to a time poor under pressure triage nurse asking the usual basic triage questions ie what's your problem today, pain level, medications, and check the vitals. Unless you have patient history from previous visits if any then you are guessing..
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on October 31, 2025, 03:47:54 pm
Did you miss “First Nations patients were also waiting, on average, three times longer compared to non-Indigenous patients.”?
I didnt miss this claim. In fact there is no way to substantiate that and its precisely what someone defending this move would say irrespective of whether or not its fair.
Thing is, why is that the case? Why are they waiting longer? Is it because the data is skewed by hospitals in areas where there is more indigenous people being treated than not?
More questions than answers out of the claim. So by doing this in metro hospitals they treat the minority as priority to paper over not enough health care institutions in remote communities where the majority of indigenous patients presents skewing the data?
Is that the right outcome? Or more manipulation of the books to satisfy criteria?
Ultimately i dont know how anyone can defend a policy where an ethnic group is treated differently to others for right or wrong reasons. Sounds like they cant be bothered fixing the real reasons the issue exists and are papering over the cracks to me.
No way to substantiate it? Hospitals record whether patients are Indigenous and they record how long it takes for patients to be seen. That's part of their reporting against performance indicators and closing the gap measures. You can read all about the disparity in health care on the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare website. For example:
"Between July 2019 and June 2021, the proportion of hospitalisations for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander (First Nations) people that had a procedure recorded was 12 percentage points lower than for non-Indigenous Australians, based on age-standardised percentages (66% compared with 78%)."
Then there's the Australian Commission on Safety and Quality in Health Care:
"The Board of St Vincent’s Hospital in inner Sydney monitors a number of indicators of quality of care for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, including rates of incomplete treatment in the Emergency Department (ED). Incomplete treatment includes patients who leave the ED before the medical team recommends discharge, those who are not present when called to be seen by a doctor and those who attended ED and did not wait to complete treatment - collectively known as leave events.
Incomplete treatment is associated with an increased risk of readmission and death.1 The NSW Ministry of Health has identified the high rate of incomplete treatment in EDs among Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander patients compared to other patients (8.6% and 6.1%, respectively, nationally, 2019)2 as a priority issue.
The hospital Board requested that the ED department work to reduce the rate of incomplete treatment among Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander patients."
Hospitals and agencies charged with monitoring health care outcomes don't make figures up. They report actual data.
You're right to some extent about data skewing "with First Nations males and females living in Major cities expected to live around 5 years longer than those living in Remote and very remote areas". However, St Vincents and other hospitals are working off their own patient data and remote hospitalisations and outcomes don't come into it .
And your assumption that the majority of Indigenous patients present for treatment in remote communities is incorrect. NSW has the highest Indigenous population with 339,500. Victoria is just ahead of the NT with 78,600 people to 76,700 and no communities in Victoria are considered to be remote.
Yes, it would be good to know why Indigenous patients at St Vincents and other hospitals have longer wait times and higher rates of incomplete treatment. More importantly, it's good that these issues have been identified and are being addressed.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Thryleon on November 01, 2025, 11:05:52 am
I didnt miss this claim. In fact there is no way to substantiate that and its precisely what someone defending this move would say irrespective of whether or not its fair.
Thing is, why is that the case? Why are they waiting longer? Is it because the data is skewed by hospitals in areas where there is more indigenous people being treated than not?
More questions than answers out of the claim. So by doing this in metro hospitals they treat the minority as priority to paper over not enough health care institutions in remote communities where the majority of indigenous patients presents skewing the data?
Is that the right outcome? Or more manipulation of the books to satisfy criteria?
Ultimately i dont know how anyone can defend a policy where an ethnic group is treated differently to others for right or wrong reasons. Sounds like they cant be bothered fixing the real reasons the issue exists and are papering over the cracks to me.
No way to substantiate it? Hospitals record whether patients are Indigenous and they record how long it takes for patients to be seen. That's part of their reporting against performance indicators and closing the gap measures. You can read all about the disparity in health care on the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare website. For example:
"Between July 2019 and June 2021, the proportion of hospitalisations for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander (First Nations) people that had a procedure recorded was 12 percentage points lower than for non-Indigenous Australians, based on age-standardised percentages (66% compared with 78%)."
Then there's the Australian Commission on Safety and Quality in Health Care:
"The Board of St Vincent’s Hospital in inner Sydney monitors a number of indicators of quality of care for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, including rates of incomplete treatment in the Emergency Department (ED). Incomplete treatment includes patients who leave the ED before the medical team recommends discharge, those who are not present when called to be seen by a doctor and those who attended ED and did not wait to complete treatment - collectively known as leave events.
Incomplete treatment is associated with an increased risk of readmission and death.1 The NSW Ministry of Health has identified the high rate of incomplete treatment in EDs among Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander patients compared to other patients (8.6% and 6.1%, respectively, nationally, 2019)2 as a priority issue.
The hospital Board requested that the ED department work to reduce the rate of incomplete treatment among Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander patients."
Hospitals and agencies charged with monitoring health care outcomes don't make figures up. They report actual data.
You're right to some extent about data skewing "with First Nations males and females living in Major cities expected to live around 5 years longer than those living in Remote and very remote areas". However, St Vincents and other hospitals are working off their own patient data and remote hospitalisations and outcomes don't come into it .
And your assumption that the majority of Indigenous patients present for treatment in remote communities is incorrect. NSW has the highest Indigenous population with 339,500. Victoria is just ahead of the NT with 78,600 people to 76,700 and no communities in Victoria are considered to be remote.
Yes, it would be good to know why Indigenous patients at St Vincents and other hospitals have longer wait times and higher rates of incomplete treatment. More importantly, it's good that these issues have been identified and are being addressed.
A couple of points:
1. I've spent 14 years working in public health institutions. Im no stranger to how data is collected.
2. My wife is a member of HIMAA. Im no stranger to health information management, how data is collected, coded and submitted about health and outcomes. If st Vincent’s are using their own data here there's already a problem because they dont have access to other hospitals data.
To quote you "Incomplete treatment includes patients who leave the ED before the medical team recommends discharge, those who are not present when called to be seen by a doctor and those who attended ED and did not wait to complete treatment - collectively known as leave events."
So I was correct in one assumption earlier based on what you've quoted. They dont want to wait and contribute to their own adverse outcomes so to fix this, we are now fast tracking them against the rest of the population.
IMHO, anyone who contributes to their own mistreatment with the above behaviour gets what they deserve despite their backgrounds or indigenous status, and withdraws their right to complain.
The figures are provided by the organisations implementing these policies, and are audited by bodies associated with them. Forgive me for not trusting the accuracy of said numbers and figures as they are simply reported by the bodies that came up with this discriminatory decision and continue to find ways to see people who dont identify as indigenous as lesser.
Of course, lets just explain away the fact we are discriminating based on ethnic and cultural backgrounds. Its clear that being non indigenous to Australia puts me on a less equal standing to the indigenous mob.
You know ive often wondered what it takes to identify as indigenous or Torres straight Islander. I get that the indigenous people would need to accept this but on government forms you tick a box. Is it audited and reviewed properly? Does it ever get challenged? and now for the final point from me for this whole discussion, in the past all I have heard is about the reluctance for indigenous people to actually identify themselves as indigenous on these due to historic mistrust and mistreatment, so how do you come up with trustworthy figures when they would often abstain from doing so?
The figures arent trustworthy is my contention and it means a decision affecting many has been made based on the outcomes of the few standardised. Thats possibly giving incorrect outcomes but as per usual our options are limited to whinging on a forum.
All people want, is equal treatment. Special treatment serves only to further divide us.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 01, 2025, 11:20:46 am
I'll say this, I used to see a liver specialist at a public hospital here in Melbourne. Check is via swiping your Medicare card at a console where you get a ticket with a number. The wait at the specialist clinics there is normally horrendous. On one occasion, in my haste, I accidentally clicked yes to the Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander question. I can tell you on that occasion my wait was minuscule, I virtually got called in straight away. Coincidence? Perhaps.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on November 01, 2025, 11:39:44 am
I'll say this, I used to see a liver specialist at a public hospital here in Melbourne. Check is via swiping your Medicare card at a console where you get a ticket with a number. The wait at the specialist clinics there is normally horrendous. On one occasion, in my haste, I accidentally clicked yes to the Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander question. I can tell you on that occasion my wait was minuscule, I virtually got called in straight away. Coincidence? Perhaps.
Oh no! You've skewed the data :)
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on November 01, 2025, 11:56:21 am
I don't feel even remotely divided because I may be in a hospital waiting room, and once in my lifetime a First Nations person may get taken in a few minutes before me. Equality of outcome and facilitating a more level access to medical treatment are what's important IMO.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on November 17, 2025, 06:01:27 pm
Looks like Brad Battin's days as Victorian Opposition Leader are numbered.
If shadow treasurer Jess Wilson rolls him as expected, that will be three Opposition Leaders in less than 12 months.
You would think that the Coalition have the next election sewed up but the deep divisions in the Liberal Party could see them lose yet another election. All they would really have to do is put on a united front and avoid major gaffes but that seems to be beyond them.
I can't say that I'll be sorry to see the back of Battin and I don't know anything about Wilson. John Pesutto was doing OK until he upset the right by taking on Moya Deeming. I can't see them letting him back.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on November 18, 2025, 09:05:42 am
It looks like Battin is toast.
To paraphrase Bill Hayden, “A drover’s dog could lead the Libs to victory at the next election,” but they’re focused on their own internal conflicts and getting even 🙄
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on November 18, 2025, 09:35:31 am
That’s a meteoric rise for Jess Wilson who is a first term MP.
First female leader of the Victorian Libs too.
Good luck to her 🙏
She might need it; the Liberal right is up in arms!
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on November 18, 2025, 10:48:40 am
I suppose the fundamental problem with the Liberals even at a state level is that they are percieved as a coalition not a party, and that is because they behave like a coalition and not a party, they do not exhibit unity. And the people being offered as alternatives to the right might not be as pure as the general public is lead to believe.
There is quite a bit of irony for the anti-soclialist and anti-union LIberals to be torn apart by obvious factions even if they refuse to call them factions.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Thryleon on November 18, 2025, 02:04:41 pm
I know Brad's brother. We are loosely related by marriage. Seems like a good type to lead, no wonder he got dumped by politicians.
:P
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: cookie2 on November 18, 2025, 03:04:13 pm
And another one bites the dust………..
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Lods on November 18, 2025, 06:01:25 pm
I suppose the fundamental problem with the Liberals even at a state level is that they are percieved as a coalition not a party, and that is because they behave like a coalition and not a party, they do not exhibit unity. And the people being offered as alternatives to the right might not be as pure as the general public is lead to believe.
There is quite a bit of irony for the anti-soclialist and anti-union LIberals to be torn apart by obvious factions even if they refuse to call them factions.
There are factions alright at a federal level...
The National Right (the largest faction) -Angus Taylor, Mickey Cash, Hastie (although he's probably moving around a bit due to leadership aspirations.
The Moderates (the party's left-such as it is)- Ley and Ted O'Brien sit here.
And the Centre Right (the group in the middle)-once the largest group during Morrison's time...now a shell of less than half a dozen due to lost seats and factional movement.
I'm not sure how those grouping tanslate to Victorian politics.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: dodge on November 18, 2025, 06:05:27 pm
Not factions in the Libs/Nationals. They are one big broad church! ^-^
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 18, 2025, 06:34:00 pm
Jess Wilson is an attempt from the Libs to change course and try and appeal to younger voters and female voters. Be interested if rusted on older Lib voters buy what she is selling given she is a more moderate Liberal and has some personal views that are not aligned with normal liberal policy offerings.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on November 18, 2025, 07:52:14 pm
Jess Wilson is an attempt from the Libs to change course and try and appeal to younger voters and female voters. Be interested if rusted on older Lib voters buy what she is selling given she is a more moderate Liberal and has some personal views that are not aligned with normal liberal policy offerings.
That's going to be her big challenge EB.
Jess Wilson had a good first day and I think that she could drag the Liberals out of the quagmire, if given the freedom to do so. I think that she will appeal to younger voters and female voters and they've both been the Libs' Achille's heels over the last quarter of a century. It's those crusty, old, misogynistic Libs that will act as a sheet anchor, or worse, and will fight to stop the party regaining the centre ground.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 18, 2025, 10:29:32 pm
Jess Wilson is an attempt from the Libs to change course and try and appeal to younger voters and female voters. Be interested if rusted on older Lib voters buy what she is selling given she is a more moderate Liberal and has some personal views that are not aligned with normal liberal policy offerings.
That's going to be her big challenge EB.
Jess Wilson had a good first day and I think that she could drag the Liberals out of the quagmire, if given the freedom to do so. I think that she will appeal to younger voters and female voters and they've both been the Libs' Achille's heels over the last quarter of a century. It's those crusty, old, misogynistic Libs that will act as a sheet anchor, or worse, and will fight to stop the party regaining the centre ground.
I think she presents well and ticks quite a few boxes that her predecessors haven't. Having said that, I have a feeling that Allan and her more experienced cronies will eat her alive and run her out of town.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on November 19, 2025, 11:39:38 am
I'm not sure how those grouping tanslate to Victorian politics.
From what I have heard about the back room stuff there is some irony the media calling the factions left, moderate or right, perhaps the term "fundamental" might be a better description of the lines of division.
God help us!
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: shawny on November 29, 2025, 11:49:57 pm
Jacinta tells us the state is safe and our bail laws are the toughest in the country.
Yet an 11 year old stabs a 8 year old and police have confirmed no charges will be laid as he is under the age of criminal conviction. He wore a balaclava had a fake gun and proceeded to stab a grade one child and a teacher. Did an adult crime so why allow him off scott free- Htf is this kid going to learn? Can you imagine in 5 years time what he will do. Juvenile detention is a min for this kid yet cant be charged.
Meanwhile at coles in Laurimar Machettes gang members terrorise innocent citizens going about their daily business - 2 of these criminals were charged yet unbelievably were yet again released on bail!! Can you fking believe it - nothing changes.
WTF has happened to our state - its out of control and regardless of which side of the political fence you sit on something needs to change and change fast.
The Laws and sentencing need major overhaulling yet nothing will happen as those running the state deny there is any issue.
Sad sad state of affairs
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: kruddler on November 30, 2025, 12:12:29 am
Jacinta tells us the state is safe and our bail laws are the toughest in the country.
Yet an 11 year old stabs a 8 year old and police have confirmed no charges will be laid as he is under the age of criminal conviction. He wore a balaclava had a fake gun and proceeded to stab a grade one child and a teacher. Did an adult crime so why allow him off scott free- Htf is this kid going to learn? Can you imagine in 5 years time what he will do. Juvenile detention is a min for this kid yet cant be charged.
Meanwhile at coles in Laurimar Machettes gang members terrorise innocent citizens going about their daily business - 2 of these criminals were charged yet unbelievably were yet again released on bail!! Can you fking believe it - nothing changes.
WTF has happened to our state - its out of control and regardless of which side of the political fence you sit on something needs to change and change fast.
The Laws and sentencing need major overhaulling yet nothing will happen as those running the state deny there is any issue.
Sad sad state of affairs
Are you near laurimar shawny? I know a lot of residents are losing their crap over this and it appears people are very close to pitchforks and torches.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on November 30, 2025, 11:22:23 am
On topic and highly recommended, Alec Karakatsanis' book Copaganda, released earlier this year.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: shawny on November 30, 2025, 11:56:55 am
Jacinta tells us the state is safe and our bail laws are the toughest in the country.
Yet an 11 year old stabs a 8 year old and police have confirmed no charges will be laid as he is under the age of criminal conviction. He wore a balaclava had a fake gun and proceeded to stab a grade one child and a teacher. Did an adult crime so why allow him off scott free- Htf is this kid going to learn? Can you imagine in 5 years time what he will do. Juvenile detention is a min for this kid yet cant be charged.
Meanwhile at coles in Laurimar Machettes gang members terrorise innocent citizens going about their daily business - 2 of these criminals were charged yet unbelievably were yet again released on bail!! Can you fking believe it - nothing changes.
WTF has happened to our state - its out of control and regardless of which side of the political fence you sit on something needs to change and change fast.
The Laws and sentencing need major overhaulling yet nothing will happen as those running the state deny there is any issue.
Sad sad state of affairs
Are you near laurimar shawny? I know a lot of residents are losing their crap over this and it appears people are very close to pitchforks and torches.
Im about 20mins away and yes the local FB noticeboard comments in the area were filled with very angry fed up locals inferring its time we take matters into out own hands and draw arms. They think there is no other option to protect their families against what is groups of young violent men that have no respect for the law or for anyone that is around when these clashes go down. As we know they have no regard for human life.
Scary times and bloody sad to see what our state has turned into. Its hard to believe and only going to increase with the lack of accountability and governance we have.
These offenders dont operate in ways we are used to. They have no regard for anyone and until we get super tough by locking them up for long sentences they laugh at our p1ss weak ridiculous responses like macheete bins weak sentences and majority being bailed within 48 hours of getting apprehended - they will just go on their merry way causing havoc with these violent clashes and if you get caught up in it they wont think twice to stab slash kill and why citizens are privately preparing to do whats needed to protect their families as the leaders are incapable of it.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on November 30, 2025, 01:05:07 pm
In this case i don't care what media report or our head in the sand leader telling us everytime another stabbing is reported that the state is safe and great but as i was born with eyes and ears in this case I will trust what i see first hand and how bad things have rather then believe a left leaning publication that happens to be 4 months old. If you like i can send you 100s of links of articles saying the complete opposite but i know you will say its 'Fake news' being from the other direction.
Talk to those who live in the west or those that go out into the city after dark or talk to emergency service workers who are on the front line and ask them. There is no denying it - the wheel has turned to a point where Vics are leaving in droves to get out.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on November 30, 2025, 01:36:44 pm
The solution to this violence problem is to support VicPol and it's actions, not undermine it, the problem for everybody at the moment is the left wing govnerment is basically creating and anti-police legal structure.
Add to that, many of the same people most loudly complaining about machetes and calling for vigilantism are the same ones throwing rocks at the police lines, it's ironic this weekend that many roll up to the Australia Protest, an event effectively organised and managed by a white neo-nazi New Zealander.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on November 30, 2025, 01:52:36 pm
In this case i don't care what media report or our head in the sand leader telling us everytime another stabbing is reported that the state is safe and great but as i was born with eyes and ears in this case I will trust what i see first hand and how bad things have rather then believe a left leaning publication that happens to be 4 months old. If you like i can send you 100s of links of articles saying the complete opposite but i know you will say its 'Fake news' being from the other direction.
Talk to those who live in the west or those that go out into the city after dark or talk to emergency service workers who are on the front line and ask them. There is no denying it - the wheel has turned to a point where Vics are leaving in droves to get out.
Rather than poisoning the well, you should post those 100's of links and let me decide for myself. Also, I didn't realize Victoria's crime rate had spiraled out of control in the last 4 months.
That article is part of a 4 part series, and all 4 are well worth a read.
EDIT : I should also state that the main reason I post articles from The Conversation is that : a : the authors are typically experts in their field, and b: the articles frequently contain links to data, research, statistics and other articles that back up the claims being made.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: kruddler on November 30, 2025, 03:42:27 pm
@Paul, i think the issue is what Shawny is seeing locally and in the news and comparing that to the same area previously. On that front he is right. The area is getting worse. Whether that translates to victoria wide, not sure. Maybe all these crimes occuring there used to occur in a different area that has cleaned up its act, essentially handballing the problem further down the field in a game of hot potato
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Lods on November 30, 2025, 05:03:35 pm
Maybe all these crimes occuring there used to occur in a different area that has cleaned up its act, essentially handballing the problem further down the field in a game of hot potato
That's often the case in a big city. With population movement the character of an area can change dramatically. Areas that were once reasonably quiet suddenly become places of unrest, while others that seemed troubled settle and become more stable. It certainly happened in Sydney over my lifetime. Suburbs that were once considered places to avoid became trendy and up market as populations moved further from the original centre of the city.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on November 30, 2025, 05:12:18 pm
@Paul, i think the issue is what Shawny is seeing locally and in the news and comparing that to the same area previously. On that front he is right. The area is getting worse. Whether that translates to victoria wide, not sure. Maybe all these crimes occuring there used to occur in a different area that has cleaned up its act, essentially handballing the problem further down the field in a game of hot potato
I'm not denying these incidents occurred - plainly they have. What I take issue with is the framing and reporting of such incidents, the lack of detail and context, the fact that outside of outlets like The Conversation and similar, expert opinion is rarely sought. Once the level of fear mongering reaches a fever pitch, which in the current climate does not take long, government policy and resources is forced to prioritize, and therefore needs to be seen to be taking action. In a space where resources are limited, this means other areas miss out. As I mentioned earlier, violent crime rates have been in decline for 20 or so years, except very significantly in the area of domestic violence, where the rates have been regrettably stable over the same period. Yet you won't read about that nearly as much because it doesn't grab the public's attention in the same way as black kids with machetes.
I'm safely assuming we can all agree that there has never been and never will be a zero crime rate, anywhere on earth, which means we must all accept some level of crime. The issue then becomes one of perceptions and personal boundaries : is there is difference between "feeling" safe and "being" safe ? What crime rate would constitute the government having crime "under control" and conversely at what point is crime "out of control" ? Etc.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: kruddler on November 30, 2025, 05:32:47 pm
@Paul, i think the issue is what Shawny is seeing locally and in the news and comparing that to the same area previously. On that front he is right. The area is getting worse. Whether that translates to victoria wide, not sure. Maybe all these crimes occuring there used to occur in a different area that has cleaned up its act, essentially handballing the problem further down the field in a game of hot potato
I'm not denying these incidents occurred - plainly they have. What I take issue with is the framing and reporting of such incidents, the lack of detail and context, the fact that outside of outlets like The Conversation and similar, expert opinion is rarely sought. Once the level of fear mongering reaches a fever pitch, which in the current climate does not take long, government policy and resources is forced to prioritize, and therefore needs to be seen to be taking action. In a space where resources are limited, this means other areas miss out. As I mentioned earlier, violent crime rates have been in decline for 20 or so years, except very significantly in the area of domestic violence, where the rates have been regrettably stable over the same period. Yet you won't read about that nearly as much because it doesn't grab the public's attention in the same way as black kids with machetes.
I'm safely assuming we can all agree that there has never been and never will be a zero crime rate, anywhere on earth, which means we must all accept some level of crime. The issue then becomes one of perceptions and personal boundaries : is there is difference between "feeling" safe and "being" safe ? What crime rate would constitute the government having crime "under control" and conversely at what point is crime "out of control" ? Etc.
What i was trying to get across, was that it could be a case of 'you are both right' from your own point of view.
What he is seeing, and i'm not far from their either, is definitely an increase in these types of crimes over previous. Real world statistics may ultimately suggest otherwise, and i gave a reason for that in which Lods agrees is plausible if not probable.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on November 30, 2025, 06:11:52 pm
I imagine that most folk were shocked at the report of the 11 year old boy stabbing the 8 year old at school. What a terrible experience for the two children, their classmates, the teachers and the families. But then, when you think about it, there over 380,000 children attending government primary schools in Victoria. One out of 380,000 isn't too shabby, particularly when you consider that more than 4,300 children and teens are shot and killed in the USA every year and over 17,000 more are shot and wounded. It is estimated that 3 million children in the US are exposed to shootings per year but successive governments there do nothing about it ... and that fruitcake Pauline Hanson tried to solicit donations from the NRA in return for watering down Australia's gun laws.
Who knows what motivated the 11 year old to do what he did? We can speculate about domestic violence, abuse, the influence of violent video games or TV programs and mental health issues. Has anyone else noticed how TV characters suffer punches, and knife and bullet wounds and carry on as if nothing is wrong? Does that unrealistic ability to absorb punishment give children the impression that violence doesn't really do any harm?
So why hasn't the 11 year old been charged? Quite simply, the age of criminal responsibility in Victoria is 12 (It was raised which was raised from 10 earlier this year) and the law recognises that children are unlikely to understand the impact of their actions or to comprehend criminal proceedings. Brain studies have conclusively shown that the prefrontal cortex – the part of the brain responsible for risk assessment, decision making and impulse control – doesn’t fully develop until after adolescence (10–19 years) and into early adulthood (20–29 years). This developmental process means children and young people are unable to think about their actions and understand the potential consequences in the same way as adults.
I think that most of us can look back with horror at some of the things we got up to as pre-teens and teenagers. Converting spud guns to fire .22 bullets and shooting at cars on Bell Street, Coburg was not one of my brightest ideas.
Obviously steps need to be taken to understand why the eleven year old did what he did and to ensure that it doesn't happen again. I don't know how that can be done but I do know that charging him and dragging him before the courts is not the answer.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on November 30, 2025, 08:17:21 pm
There’s a few reports around that Australia is on track to eliminate cervical cancer by 2035. Hopefully we can achieve this target. 2021 was a particularly good year, with zero cases diagnosed. It’s one of the most common cancers in women, so a super effort from all concerned.
The linked article is a bit of a plug for GP’s, but it does contain the important facts.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Baggers on November 30, 2025, 08:32:16 pm
There’s a few reports around that Australia is on track to eliminate cervical cancer by 2035. Hopefully we can achieve this target. 2021 was a particularly good year, with zero cases diagnosed. It’s one of the most common cancers in women, so a super effort from all concerned.
The linked article is a bit of a plug for GP’s, but it does contain the important facts.
Such an important post, Pauly. Thank you. Yep, brilliant effort from Oz.
(I declare my bias in that my paternal grandmother died of this cancer at the age of 31... in the 1940s).
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 30, 2025, 09:59:00 pm
This in how unsafe Victoria has become: For the year ending June 2025, according to the Crime Statistics Agency(https://www.crimestatistics.vic.gov.au/) , there were:
18,482 serious assaults - a 16 per cent increase 7,856 residential aggravated burglaries - a 22 per cent increase 3,828 robberies - a 17 per cent increase 33,018 motor vehicle theft - a 42 per cent increase 86,351 steal from a motor vehicle - a 39 per cent increase 41,667 steal from a retail store - a 28 per cent increase 11,075 prohibited and controlled weapon offences - a 12 per cent increase. 9,663 family violence related serious assaults - a 23% per cent increase.
You add in all the graffiti, unoccupied run down buildings full of squatters, needles everywhere you walk, increases in ambulance staff and nurses getting attacked on the job, drones landing in family members backyards with white packs of powder on board, kids getting murdered on the way home from a basketball game. The you have the Victorian Government actually cutting funding for Youth Crime Prevention programs and the Youth Support and Advocacy Service (YSAS). Debt in Victoria continues to grow faster than both the economy and revenue, with government sector gross debt nearing 30 per cent of the state’s economy. Credit rating has gone backwards and the auditor-general said gross debt was forecast to grow to $240 billion by 2028-29, about 202 per cent of operating revenue. Crime is on the rise and so is the expenditure for victims of crime...Liabilities from redress schemes, and financial assistance for victims of crime grew from $30 million five years ago to $853 million. Anyone living in Victoria should be concerned where the State is heading....future is bleak and the Crims are winning with the amount of unsolved crimes also increasing.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Thryleon on November 30, 2025, 10:34:43 pm
There’s a few reports around that Australia is on track to eliminate cervical cancer by 2035. Hopefully we can achieve this target. 2021 was a particularly good year, with zero cases diagnosed. It’s one of the most common cancers in women, so a super effort from all concerned.
The linked article is a bit of a plug for GP’s, but it does contain the important facts.
I like that we are on track.
2021's lack of diagnosis is more likely to be due to the covid virus reactions and our ongoing issues with lock down.
Conspiracy theorist or not, its a fact that people just weren't keeping up with those routine checks and appointments.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: shawny on November 30, 2025, 10:38:33 pm
This in how unsafe Victoria has become: For the year ending June 2025, according to the Crime Statistics Agency(https://www.crimestatistics.vic.gov.au/) , there were:
18,482 serious assaults - a 16 per cent increase 7,856 residential aggravated burglaries - a 22 per cent increase 3,828 robberies - a 17 per cent increase 33,018 motor vehicle theft - a 42 per cent increase 86,351 steal from a motor vehicle - a 39 per cent increase 41,667 steal from a retail store - a 28 per cent increase 11,075 prohibited and controlled weapon offences - a 12 per cent increase. 9,663 family violence related serious assaults - a 23% per cent increase.
You add in all the graffiti, unoccupied run down buildings full of squatters, needles everywhere you walk, increases in ambulance staff and nurses getting attacked on the job, drones landing in family members backyards with white packs of powder on board, kids getting murdered on the way home from a basketball game. The you have the Victorian Government actually cutting funding for Youth Crime Prevention programs and the Youth Support and Advocacy Service (YSAS). Debt in Victoria continues to grow faster than both the economy and revenue, with government sector gross debt nearing 30 per cent of the state’s economy. Credit rating has gone backwards and the auditor-general said gross debt was forecast to grow to $240 billion by 2028-29, about 202 per cent of operating revenue. Crime is on the rise and so is the expenditure for victims of crime...Liabilities from redress schemes, and financial assistance for victims of crime grew from $30 million five years ago to $853 million. Anyone living in Victoria should be concerned where the State is heading....future is bleak and the Crims are winning with the amount of unsolved crimes also increasing.
Does this confirm Pauls link is fake news?
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 30, 2025, 10:50:08 pm
This in how unsafe Victoria has become: For the year ending June 2025, according to the Crime Statistics Agency(https://www.crimestatistics.vic.gov.au/) , there were:
18,482 serious assaults - a 16 per cent increase 7,856 residential aggravated burglaries - a 22 per cent increase 3,828 robberies - a 17 per cent increase 33,018 motor vehicle theft - a 42 per cent increase 86,351 steal from a motor vehicle - a 39 per cent increase 41,667 steal from a retail store - a 28 per cent increase 11,075 prohibited and controlled weapon offences - a 12 per cent increase. 9,663 family violence related serious assaults - a 23% per cent increase.
You add in all the graffiti, unoccupied run down buildings full of squatters, needles everywhere you walk, increases in ambulance staff and nurses getting attacked on the job, drones landing in family members backyards with white packs of powder on board, kids getting murdered on the way home from a basketball game. The you have the Victorian Government actually cutting funding for Youth Crime Prevention programs and the Youth Support and Advocacy Service (YSAS). Debt in Victoria continues to grow faster than both the economy and revenue, with government sector gross debt nearing 30 per cent of the state’s economy. Credit rating has gone backwards and the auditor-general said gross debt was forecast to grow to $240 billion by 2028-29, about 202 per cent of operating revenue. Crime is on the rise and so is the expenditure for victims of crime...Liabilities from redress schemes, and financial assistance for victims of crime grew from $30 million five years ago to $853 million. Anyone living in Victoria should be concerned where the State is heading....future is bleak and the Crims are winning with the amount of unsolved crimes also increasing.
Overreaction EB, Jacinta says everything is fine. I'd love to debate this with you but have to tend to the pink elephant that flew passed my window. Then I need to get the chimney ready for Santa in 26 days.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on November 30, 2025, 11:06:22 pm
I heard that radical Steve Price on the wireless a couple of days ago. His prediction for the next State Election; comfortable win for Labor.
Something’s not adding up.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 15, 2025, 11:36:11 am
Once again the inevitable happens thanks to our weak as piss namby pamby in denial governments. When asked a pointed question by a report last night, Albo fill his shorts. Pathetic.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on December 15, 2025, 01:49:05 pm
I'm safely assuming we can all agree that there has never been and never will be a zero crime rate, anywhere on earth, which means we must all accept some level of crime. The issue then becomes one of perceptions and personal boundaries : is there is difference between "feeling" safe and "being" safe ? What crime rate would constitute the government having crime "under control" and conversely at what point is crime "out of control" ? Etc.
My problem here is that you would think it should be fairly black and white regarding the statistics, courts, police and auditors (Public and private) should be largely in agreement at least in the trending of data.
Yet that doesn't seem to be the case, which makes it very hard to perform an authentic assessment. There are so many contradictory sources, too many, both official and pseudo-official, that you can just pick and choose the version that suits your personal narrative on pretty much any issue.
What's the motive for this contradictory analysis behaviour, farming distrust seems to be a big driver, which just further clouds the issue.
When entities like the media can publish false claims without consequence, and harvest large profits while doing so, the situation will never change. I wouldn't stop them, I'd let them speak, but I have a big stick available for when they found to be deceptive.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Thryleon on December 15, 2025, 01:59:11 pm
Once again the inevitable happens thanks to our weak as piss namby pamby in denial governments. When asked a pointed question by a report last night, Albo fill his shorts. Pathetic.
I havent been following. Whats happened now?
Was it in relation to the Bondi thing?
I think we need to treat those situations a little differently. Activism, violence, and potential co-ordination between extremists groups. Hard to pin this on a local government for anything here.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on December 15, 2025, 02:12:35 pm
Horrendous events.
Every action has a reaction, no matter where or when it occurs, if people are outraged, they should be equally outraged at the likes of Netanyahu and Trump for stoking of the fires, mostly for their own political and financial gain.
I have a former associate, a young career physicist, who after cutbacks at CERN found employment in the EU as a weapons inspector. He said the amount of subterfuge and false flag operations that go on from all sides of investigations is extraordinary. But he said he is lucky, because he only has to audit physical resources, he does not have to assess the political or social motives like some of his colleagues the political science analysts, they identify trolls on pretty much every team in high numbers, but they are not permitted to expose them as most hold diplomatic status. Such hypocrisy from all sides.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 15, 2025, 02:18:28 pm
Once again the inevitable happens thanks to our weak as piss namby pamby in denial governments. When asked a pointed question by a report last night, Albo fill his shorts. Pathetic.
I havent been following. Whats happened now?
Was it in relation to the Bondi thing?
I think we need to treat those situations a little differently. Activism, violence, and potential co-ordination between extremists groups. Hard to pin this on a local government for anything here.
Governments have been pandering to protesters/activists and allowing a underlying anti semitic tone to develop in the community. States and the Federal Government have been weak in cracking down on this political unrest between these opposing factions, its got nothing to do with Australian Politics and those pursuing their agendas through terrorism need dealing with more severely and made an example of to deter future attacks. Albanese needs to stop making policy to get re-elected and start protecting the community and make the country secure from these nutcase radicals bringing their politics and problems to Australia.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on December 15, 2025, 03:09:34 pm
The Bondi massacre appears to be Islamist terrorism ... and the hero who disarmed one of the terrorists is Muslim.
You have to wonder at the warped thinking that enables a father and son to commit such an atrocity.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on December 15, 2025, 03:20:13 pm
It's easy to lump the protests against the Israeli genocide in Palestine into the antisemitism basket. However, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance makes the point that "criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic". Many of the Jewish callers to the ABC this morning made similar points and said that they would maintain their protests against Israel's actions in Palestine and Lebanon.
That said, It would be refreshing for all Australian governments to ban all protests at least for the duration of the festive season.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Thryleon on December 15, 2025, 03:26:48 pm
I think we need to treat those situations a little differently. Activism, violence, and potential co-ordination between extremists groups. Hard to pin this on a local government for anything here.
Governments have been pandering to protesters/activists and allowing a underlying anti semitic tone to develop in the community. States and the Federal Government have been weak in cracking down on this political unrest between these opposing factions, its got nothing to do with Australian Politics and those pursuing their agendas through terrorism need dealing with more severely and made an example of to deter future attacks. Albanese needs to stop making policy to get re-elected and start protecting the community and make the country secure from these nutcase radicals bringing their politics and problems to Australia.
You just described the sole function of a politician. Get elected and stay elected.
I don't condone extremists, but this action of "condoning anti semitism tone and developing" is not a product of anything to do with Australia, but its more about the war in the west bank and the events of the last 500 odd days there, along with the last 2000 years of history (and possibly beyond).
At no step along the way, has Australia condoned any of the anti semitism that has occurred, but the reason why I state Bondi and its events cant be tied to government and anti semitism, is because its not the same game as simply targetting minorities for the sake of a sick and twisted hate crime. Its a more politically motivated effort with a goal to change a status quo (not that this makes it much better) but what Im trying to articulate, is that this isnt the same as some spray paint on a temple, or hate speech etc. Its activism. The sort that sends the message to the nation state that Jews belong to, and that is a non Australian consequence of mixed society. We will see more of the same as a result.
Would any government policy change this? No. I dont think so.
The label "anti semitism" in this context does it a disservice. This was not a simple anti Jewish event. It was a political statement to fuel the continuing middle eastern conflict. This was not a neo nazi scenario, and any attempt to paint it as such is an over simplification of what is going on. Likewise it minimises the why behind the action. Its not just anti Jewish. You need to review it in context with happenings over in Palestine/Israel and that ongoing conflict. It also appears to have been co-ordinated with another event.
No one deserves to lose their life at a cultural event particularly half a world away. Its not soley about semitism, or anti semitism in this regard. This was a political statement that has arrived on our shores vicariously. It is not the first of its kind, and it wont be the last, and whilst that conflict occurs in the middle east, any discussion of "anti semitism" should be shelved, because its not anti arabian or muslim to label the Palestinians or other nation states in the middle east terrorists or harbingers of doom. WE need to stop that, because that fuels the same violence. I put 2 and 2 together instantly last night as soon as the shootings occurred in Bondi and figured, something to do with Channukah makes sense, and immediately thought it would come to light that this was a terrorism event.
It is simply another part of the greater under current of war that is occurring over there.
This is not to say its ok, nor make it ok.
War is war. When people stop looking at each conflict in isolation, and tie them back to history and all goings on, it changes the context of every event. Those conflicts in the middle east are as much a power vaccuum situation after Rome fell, and then the Ottoman empire as any thing else. All the events are intrinsically linked, and just like the Jews were expelled from Israel thousands of years ago, only to return in the 20th century, simply reignites the old feuds.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 15, 2025, 07:51:36 pm
I think we need to treat those situations a little differently. Activism, violence, and potential co-ordination between extremists groups. Hard to pin this on a local government for anything here.
Governments have been pandering to protesters/activists and allowing a underlying anti semitic tone to develop in the community. States and the Federal Government have been weak in cracking down on this political unrest between these opposing factions, its got nothing to do with Australian Politics and those pursuing their agendas through terrorism need dealing with more severely and made an example of to deter future attacks. Albanese needs to stop making policy to get re-elected and start protecting the community and make the country secure from these nutcase radicals bringing their politics and problems to Australia.
Albanese and the like will take the piss weak option of changing gun laws penalising law abiding citizens like me who pose zero threat to anyone. He and all the agency leaders should admit to yet more failures in: - Identifying people who should not be in the country let alone on the streets. - Dealing with the organisations in this country who spread and preach hate, who's sole purpose is to nurture and promote animals like the two perpetrators of yesterdays atrocity. The agencies know who they are, where they are and what they are up to and do nothing about it. They've dropped the ball and they know it. They will back peddle, deflect and bring in bullcrap laws that will make not one iota of difference.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: crashlander on December 15, 2025, 08:01:49 pm
Gun laws might need a tweak, but it is the enforcing that appears to be lacking. If laws get ignored or not followed because it is too hard, then things like this will happen.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 15, 2025, 08:23:14 pm
Gun laws might need a tweak, but it is the enforcing that appears to be lacking. If laws get ignored or not followed because it is too hard, then things like this will happen.
Laws are being followed by 99.99% of the population. I recently had to take ownership of my brothers firearms because his licence lapsed and he had to go through the whole process as his "grace" period elapsed. 1. The district firearms officer contacted him and advised his to dispose of them that day or else. 2. Within a week of acquiring them, I had the local police contacting me to do a compliance inspection of the storage of all my firearms. The bloke who committed the murders yesterday probably had his firearms stored legally also. If its not firearms, it's something else. Evil people will always find a means of inflicting carnage on others, it's the evil people you need to focus on getting rid of.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on December 16, 2025, 10:31:42 am
Jeremy Liebler, who is head of a Zionist group, was on the wireless a couple of days ago and one of the things he said that I agreed with is that now is not the time to look at gun laws. However, what Albo is talking about is establishing a national register and ensuring that all States and Territories have digital registers. Queensland, South Australia, the Northern Territory, and the Australian Capital Territory still have paper-based or outdated firearms registers and that is unacceptable.
I now have a digital shooter’s licence on my phone. If the Victorian Government can manage that, Albo should be kicking arses to get the lagging States and Territories to bring their registers into the 21st century.
Of course, having a national digitised register won’t prevent terrorist or sovereign citizen attacks but it would make it easier for ASIO to determine whether radicalised nutters have access to firearms.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Thryleon on December 16, 2025, 11:00:16 am
More controls arent a bad thing, but its not a panacea.
You just end up with a sponsor. i.e. Outsource the gun sourcing to a stand up citizen who can sell it to the highest bidder for bitcoin.
Unregulated access to firearms will always be a thing and making people jump through hoops will flag them early to authorities that they are potentially aiming to do something, but hypothetically, if I am the gun owner, and I do it all above board, thats not going to stop some undesirable from using my guns. If it is proven my guns were used, then that would change it for next time, but as we have seen, these things arent regular occurrences and it would be like the Hydra. The next cab off the rank would be arming the nutters.
(not that I would do it, but a stand up citizen on paper has thoughts and feels that cant be measured).
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 16, 2025, 11:14:11 am
I will just add this, thankfully the animals on Sunday didn't have semi automatic rifles or automatic assault rifles as the carnage would have been horrific (double or triple the toll). One shooter however appeared to have a pump action shotgun of sorts and these need to be made illegal immediately as the Howard ban intended after Port Arthur. Automatic shotguns have popped back into circulation (legally obtained) with a special condition licence. I have always been against this as in my opinion, there is no need for them whatsover. Break open over/under or side by side shot guns (2 cartridges max) should be all that is legal along with bolt action rifles for registered hunters and target shooters, nothing else. Over and above this, without going into a racist type commentary, the authorities need to revamp who holds a firearm licence. Currently, If you have a mental illness and are taking medication, you cannot hold a licence for obvious reasons. The authorities need to extend this by tracking down all the members of known terrorist organisations and remove their licences (perhaps before deporting them altogether). As for people who visit and frequent known terrorist training camps and hot spots like in the Philippines for example, those people cannot hold a firearms licence IMO. Extreme measures and strategic tactics are needed to combat this.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on December 16, 2025, 11:52:10 am
Gun laws might need a tweak, but it is the enforcing that appears to be lacking. If laws get ignored or not followed because it is too hard, then things like this will happen.
People are not crooks until the commit a crime, and true criminals do not give a rats-ar5e about the law.
All that making more laws does is increase the burden on society.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on December 16, 2025, 12:03:23 pm
The Bondi massacre appears to be Islamist terrorism ... and the hero who disarmed one of the terrorists is Muslim.
You have to wonder at the warped thinking that enables a father and son to commit such an atrocity.
This is the uncomfortable truth for many who wish to point fingers at various segments of the population.
Criminals commit crimes, good citizens obey laws, more law is not the answer.
The whole gun laws debate reminds me about the futility of domestic violence orders in the protection of women and children, for the lunatic and criminal a piece of paper is just another thing to wipe your ar5e with!
Language is important, not just the language after the event, because it is the language before the event that is the motivation. In this Bondi case both sides are guilty of a long history of linguistic rock throwing, and when people stand up for and defend the actions of a lunatic they contribute to the events that occur in reaction. A terrorist hiding in the basement is not a justification for bombing a hospital, a dispute at the border is not an excuse to fire on a music festival, never was and never will be. There will be reprisals in both directions, all of them grossly misplaced.
In the meantime, somebody profits selling weapons, should we make the war mongers responsible for the actions of their customers? It's not achievable, it's like making a car maker responsible for the actions of a drunk driver. Yet, when Netanyahu spoke he blamed Australia for the actions of a terrorist, it's deliberate and deceptive, he is laying the groundwork for the justification of further violence. In case you do not know, Israel is one of the world's biggest weapons traders, Netanyahu grows richer from war.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 16, 2025, 12:04:07 pm
This letter in the HS is from the daughter of a man who was killed on Sunday. He was seen throwing an object at the shooter who was disarmed. He was later wounded (fatally).
Sheina’s full statement
My father was murdered. In cold blood. Shot. For being Jewish. He did not cower. He did not lay low. He sprang to action. To fight. He was a man bigger than life itself. No boundary was uncrossable. Impossible was not a word in his mind. He put others before himself. It cost him his life. Ripped from his wife, daughter, son-in-law, and dear grandchildren. Leaving a gaping, heaving wound of sorrow. His love reached far and wide. His impact on the world was quiet, but absolutely immense. A philanthropist with a heart of gold, bigger than his chest. A man with humour and wit. A friend whose loyalty knew no bounds. It is a surreal nightmare from the deepest, darkest depths of hell. A reality far too horrendous for any human mind to process. Devoted to his faith. A loud and proud Jew. He fled the USSR to live as a Jew without fear. To an Australia that welcomed him with open arms. Where he rekindled his faith. Where he built a family, a successful business, and became a quiet philanthropist. A large man of immense kindness, who put the needs of others before his own. Who brought light into every life he touched. And then. Australia did not fail quietly. It failed loudly, repeatedly, and with full knowledge. Its government watched hatred grow and chose to do nothing. They minimised it. They excused it. They dismissed Jewish warnings as noise. A black, monstrous tornado cloud of antisemitic hate rolled in. It marched on bridges. It waved green, black, and red flags. It called for death to the Jews. This was not a shock. This was not sudden. This was not unpredictable. Antisemitism was out in the open. Threats were real. Fear was voiced again and again. And the government did nothing that mattered. Collectively, they abandoned us all, allowing antisemitism to fester.
Instead of running from the bullets that flew toward his community. Instead of running from the bullets that flew toward his community. A government that refuses to protect Jews after being warned does not get to claim innocence. A government that lets hate fester holds responsibility for the blood that follows. It has his blood on its hands. The blood of all the victims. To those sheep who mindlessly reposted calls for intifada, you are guilty. To those who adorned themselves in keffiyehs and pro-Pal slogans, you are guilty. My father was murdered because leaders were weak. Because they were lazy. Because they cared more about optics than lives. Do not dare call this a lone act. Do not dare speak of bad luck or bad timing. This was the result of neglect and moral rot at the top. Australia betrayed him. Its government betrayed him. They cleared the way. My father is dead because those in power chose inaction. And that stain will not wash off.
You are guilty.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on December 16, 2025, 12:08:47 pm
The pain is palpable, but the conclusions are all wrong, I understand they want to blame someone, the person firing the gun is the best place to start.
Further laws, further words, won't stop what is happening, the solution lies beyond Australia's border. You cannot escape a religious war by crossing a border, it goes where you go, you have to solve the problem at it's genesis.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on December 16, 2025, 12:55:08 pm
Robert Pape has done significant work in the related and adjacent space of suicide attacks and terrorism. His book Dying To Win contains original research and is now a landmark study in the field. It may surprise some that most people who carry out such attacks are not motivated by religion. As Pape shows, their scriptural literacy and interest in religion is low. Many of the attackers are secular. What motivates them more than anything is foreign powers doing s h i t t y things to their people and on their land, removing any possibility of self determination and removing any chance of building a life of some meaning and purpose.
Material conditions always take precedence over theological principles and considerations.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on December 16, 2025, 12:56:36 pm
The pain is palpable, but the conclusions are all wrong, I understand they want to blame someone, the person firing the gun is the best place to start.
Further laws, further words, won't stop what is happening, the solution lies beyond Australia's border. You cannot escape a religious war by crossing a border, it goes where you go, you have to solve the problem at it's genesis.
The footage I saw shows the rock throwing man pick up the discard shotgun, aim it the terrorist then put it down again before being shot. It's not clear whether he was shot while aiming the shotgun. Not everyone is capable of shooting at another human being and the rock throwing man may not have known how to fire the shotgun. Either way, he was another hero and his daughter's words are powerful, but wrong. Governments can only do so much to minimise terrorist attacks and it seems pretty clear that the perpetrators were radicalised long ago and not by those protesting against Israel's genocide in Palestine. In the words of Tom Waits:
"So thousands dead and wounded on both Sides most of them middle eastern civilians They fill their children full of hate to fight an old man's war And die upon the road to peace"
It's people, not governments, that allow terrorists to strike.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on December 16, 2025, 01:07:51 pm
I will just add this, thankfully the animals on Sunday didn't have semi automatic rifles or automatic assault rifles as the carnage would have been horrific (double or triple the toll). One shooter however appeared to have a pump action shotgun of sorts and these need to be made illegal immediately as the Howard ban intended after Port Arthur. Automatic shotguns have popped back into circulation (legally obtained) with a special condition licence. I have always been against this as in my opinion, there is no need for them whatsover. Break open over/under or side by side shot guns (2 cartridges max) should be all that is legal along with bolt action rifles for registered hunters and target shooters, nothing else. Over and above this, without going into a racist type commentary, the authorities need to revamp who holds a firearm licence. Currently, If you have a mental illness and are taking medication, you cannot hold a licence for obvious reasons. The authorities need to extend this by tracking down all the members of known terrorist organisations and remove their licences (perhaps before deporting them altogether). As for people who visit and frequent known terrorist training camps and hot spots like in the Philippines for example, those people cannot hold a firearms licence IMO. Extreme measures and strategic tactics are needed to combat this.
I thought that it was a pump action shotgun too G2C.
I don't know the NSW regulations but assume they're much the same as Victoria. If so, owning a self loading or pump action firearm requires a category C or D licence that is only available to primary producers or professional vertebrate pest controllers.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: dodge on December 16, 2025, 02:28:22 pm
Thanks for the Tom Waits lyrics, DJC - I haven't listened to that album for a long time.
I find a lot of comfort and peace as well in music - been listening to Nina Simone's You'll never walk alone, Gabriel's Oboe & Like a bridge over troubled water quite a bit. They all have sadness, strength and some peace in them.
I hope this brings a change to Australia - back to unity and respect. Unfortunately, I can't see it at the moment.
It seems that the gun laws need admin tweaks more than anything eg National digital registers, number of guns to own. Would changing guns laws prevent what happened if the perpetuator is determined enough?
I have a book about the global rise of anti-Semitism. I didn't get far - it is a hard read, but I think I need to get through it now.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on December 16, 2025, 03:05:12 pm
I try to transition from work to relaxation with at least 30 minutes of music every evening. The artist/genre depends a lot on how I'm feeling, what's going on locally or globally, or who has just died; my Jimmy Cliff collection got a work out recently. Tom Waits, and particularly, Road to Peace, are regulars.
When I heard that one of the terrorists was a licenced shooter with six firearms, my immediate reaction was why have six. I have four firearms, one of which is deactivated. But then I live on a property where I'm obliged to control pest animals and each of those three firearms has a specific purpose. I'm not sure why a gun club member, who may hunt and/or target shoot, would need six firearms, one of which seems to restricted to a very limited number of licenced shooters.
I really find it hard to believe that Queensland, South Australia, NT and the ACT don't have state of the art firearms registers - not that that would prevented the Bondi massacre and the recent Yackandandah and Wieambilla shootings
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on December 16, 2025, 03:50:35 pm
It's people, not governments, that allow terrorists to strike.
Somebody knew about this, somebody always knows about an event like this before it happens.
Calling for greater vigilance, surveillance, laws is just spreading the embers across already tinder dry ground.
It's not a laughing matter, but you have to laugh at Netanyahu's calls for Australia to act. Does he mean act to the same level as Israel, the most surveilled society on the face of the planet, they spy on their neighbours, they spy on their citizens, they spy on friends and foe equally, yet they cannot stop and have no hope of stopping such events as Bondi, events which have become so routine in their own backyard that they are barely reported anymore.
This event gets the global attention because it's such a rare event to happen here, and let's hope it remains that way!
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 16, 2025, 04:14:58 pm
The pain is palpable, but the conclusions are all wrong, I understand they want to blame someone, the person firing the gun is the best place to start.
Further laws, further words, won't stop what is happening, the solution lies beyond Australia's border. You cannot escape a religious war by crossing a border, it goes where you go, you have to solve the problem at it's genesis.
The footage I saw shows the rock throwing man pick up the discard shotgun, aim it the terrorist then put it down again before being shot. It's not clear whether he was shot while aiming the shotgun. Not everyone is capable of shooting at another human being and the rock throwing man may not have known how to fire the shotgun. Either way, he was another hero and his daughter's words are powerful, but wrong. Governments can only do so much to minimise terrorist attacks and it seems pretty clear that the perpetrators were radicalised long ago and not by those protesting against Israel's genocide in Palestine. In the words of Tom Waits:
"So thousands dead and wounded on both Sides most of them middle eastern civilians They fill their children full of hate to fight an old man's war And die upon the road to peace"
It's people, not governments, that allow terrorists to strike.
Governments doing "only so much" and SFA are two different things. They are reaping what they have sewn.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: LP on December 16, 2025, 05:35:50 pm
Quote from: Quote from: Gointocarlton on Tue Dec 16 2025 16:14:58 GMT+1100 (Australian Eastern Daylight Time)
Governments doing "only so much" and SFA are two different things. They are reaping what they have sewn.
The widespread calls for action are meaningless, bordering on dog whistling, when they are delivered without offers of a genuine solution.
Of course, when challenged the old "What can I do" response is specifically part of the problem!
It's clear to me, the loudest calls coming from the likes of Netanyahu and RedTrump is disingenuous, they profit from this violence, they do not want it to stop, they captain very highly profitable war machines.
I'll finish today with this, there is significant irony in the media commentators claiming the political dialogue has become too dangerous, too vindictive, many might not understand that irony, they are the medium, they are the editors and producers. They will profit heavily as well.
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: PaulP on December 16, 2025, 05:49:07 pm
The widespread calls for action are meaningless, bordering on dog whistling, when they are delivered without offers of a genuine solution.
Of course, when challenged the old "What can I do" response is specifically part of the problem!
It's clear to me, the loudest calls coming from the likes of Netanyahu and RedTrump is disingenuous, they profit from this violence, they do not want it to stop, they captain very highly profitable war machines.
I'll finish today with this, there is significant irony in the media commentators claiming the political dialogue has become too dangerous, too vindictive, many might not understand that irony, they are the medium, they are the editors and producers. They will profit heavily as well.
It's essentially one of the standard Liberal/ conservative talking points, the imputation and sometimes direct accusation that Labor governments are "soft on crime."
Title: Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Post by: DJC on December 16, 2025, 06:46:40 pm
Does anyone bother to read the ASIO Director-General's Annual Threat Assessments?
"Over the next five years, a complex, challenging and changing security environment will become more dynamic, more diverse and more degraded.
Many of the foundations that have underpinned Australia’s security, prosperity and democracy are being tested: social cohesion is eroding, trust in institutions is declining, intolerance is growing, even truth itself is being undermined by conspiracy, mis- and disinformation.
Similar trends are playing out across the Western world.
So what does this mean for our security environment?
Australia is facing multifaceted, merging, intersecting, concurrent and cascading threats. Major geopolitical, economic, social and security challenges of the 1930s, 70s and 90s have converged. As one of my analysts put it with an uncharacteristic nod to popular culture: everything, everywhere all at once.
Or as I described it a moment ago, more dynamic, diverse and degraded." ...
"The war in the Middle East has not yet directly inspired terrorism in Australia, but it is prompting protest, exacerbating division, undermining social cohesion and elevating intolerance. This, in turn, is making acts of politically motivated violence more likely."
Terrorism is a subset of politically motivated violence. It covers acts or threats intended to advance a political, religious or ideological cause through intimidation. So while a protest or an attack on an electoral office might be an act of politically motivated violence, it may not meet the threshold of terrorism.
We raised the national terrorism threat level in 2024 and I do not anticipate being able to lower it in the foreseeable future.
Politically motivated violence is raising the temperature of the security environment and making acts of terrorism more likely.
At the same time, traditional transnational terrorist groups such as Islamic State, al-Qa’ida and their affiliates are exploiting permissive spaces to revive and renew their capabilities, particularly in Afghanistan and parts of Africa. The groups have demonstrated their ability to conduct successful external attacks, although I stress that none of last year’s terrorist incidents in Australia were directed by an offshore group, and our greatest threat remains a lone actor using an easily obtained weapon."
Our greatest threat in part because, despite all of the surveillance and intelligence at ASIO's disposal, lone actors are almost impossible to detect and apprehend.