Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: Thryleon on November 24, 2025, 06:31:31 pm
Title: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on November 24, 2025, 06:31:31 pm
I posted this in a topic about forwards and how we structure up, and then got to thinking, whats the overarching goal for our list management team?
They seem to be neglecting certain types, and focussing on certain types (or so it seems).
So I performed an exercise of listing our team in the following split. Think backed, cracked, sacked by our own resident LL, but without doing the backing or sacking.
Its an interesting case study. Rather than pick a best 22 right now I think that will evolve throughout the season and pre season with strength and conditioning dictating it rather than a variance in class and ability, I prefer to divide the groups into 2:
Senior players with Bonafides:
Acres Ainsworth Boyd Cerra Cottrell Cripps Evans Florent Fogarty Haynes Hayward Hewett Kemp - 5 years in and less than 50 games. 2026 could be career defining. Mcgovern Mckay Motlop Newman Pittonet
Saad Walsh Weitering Williams Young, L.
Chesser? - 4 years into his career and has played 36 games. Not sure he is an AFL footballer yet, but seems to be on his way. Reidy? - 25 years old, 5 games on his second AFL club is not a ringing endorsement of a player with bonafides. Young, F? - half a season and 24 years old next year. Hard to know where he fits as a footballer but he isnt a youngster.
Developing Kids who are a mix of playing ahead or on schedule, or need more time to develope:
Byrne Cowan - he is a senior player ahead of schedule IMHO and quite important. In my best 22. Dean - Will play ahead of schedule. Duffy - Irish experiment. Would want to get a wriggle on, but all he has to do is show something. Hollands O - he is a senior player ahead of schedule IMHO and quite important. In my best 22. Ison Lord - a kid who has stamped his credentials. Carroll - a kid who has stamped his credentials. Moir Monahan - Irish experiment. Would want to get a wriggle on, but all he has to do is show something. O'Farrell - a kid who has stamped his credentials. O'Keefe - 21 and only played 5 games. He looks the part, but not sure yet. Jagga Smith Wilson
From the youngsters who are a mix of Bonafide AFL players and not, here is the result (I chose 25 as a cut off, so 26 year olds miss out at the date of writing i.e. Cerra, Cotters, Fogarty, Boyd, Lewis Young, Ainsworth, Florent, Hayward who are all about 27 as they are not the future):
Lord (21), Wilson(20), Monahan(21), Jagga (20), Evans(24), Young(24)
To this group we might add Will White(21), or Elijah Hollands(23) depending on how that final list spot falls, or a complete other option.
To me it looked as though a couple of years back, we made the decision to start building this layer as our priority, and it was the trade out of Matt Kennedy that really signalled it for me. Hence why we went so hard for Jagga and knowing that Walker was going to be a "generational talent" (watch that car crash unfold but thats a side story).
Most of that group listed above we have seen a taste of at AFL level. We know that the ones I have highlighted in Bold have made a stake for their best 22 aspirations based on last years footy. They may not stay there, but they are in the mix, and dont look out of place at AFL level. Is Austin a bit more measured than people are giving him credit for here?
Sure that side wont win a grand final today, nor might it in future, but add son of 1AW to it, and who knows what else, and it can really start to transform. The obvious weak points are the irish lads, but I included them as they are both 194cm lads, and sometimes you dont need the best key position, just one that will compete.
NOTE this is NOT supposed to be a current year best 22. So if you start commenting on that, its a different idea altogether.
discuss to your hearts content, we wont have much else to talk about on here for the next few months (hopefully).
EDITED for kruddlers pedantry.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 24, 2025, 06:41:50 pm
Any point you are trying to prove that you include Monaghan and Duffy in as a positive, loses credibility.
You'd be much better off doing what BBB does and do a future team with players penciled in and leaving gaps where we can't be confident.
From your (not best) 23, i'd have a handful of them no longer at the club this time next year.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 24, 2025, 07:29:54 pm
Any point you are trying to prove that you include Monaghan and Duffy in as a positive, loses credibility.
You'd be much better off doing what BBB does and do a future team with players penciled in and leaving gaps where we can't be confident.
From your (not best) 23, i'd have a handful of them no longer at the club this time next year.
I understand you're at odds with the club's direction but maybe it's worthwhile trying to see what the plan is for the next couple of years.
Rather than listing the Irish boys as 'real positive', Thry has highlighted them as an unknown weak point.
They do need to show something otherwise it's back home. The fact the club are persisting with it at virtually no cost is an indication that they're willing to give it another year.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 24, 2025, 07:57:32 pm
Any point you are trying to prove that you include Monaghan and Duffy in as a positive, loses credibility.
You'd be much better off doing what BBB does and do a future team with players penciled in and leaving gaps where we can't be confident.
From your (not best) 23, i'd have a handful of them no longer at the club this time next year.
I understand you're at odds with the club's direction but maybe it's worthwhile trying to see what the plan is for the next couple of years.
Rather than listing the Irish boys as 'real positive', Thry has highlighted them as an unknown weak point.
They do need to show something otherwise it's back home. The fact the club are persisting with it at virtually no cost is an indication that they're willing to give it another year.
The heading was... Developing Kids who are playing ahead or on schedule: I don't know of anyone, besides maybe thry, who thinks they are 'on schedule'. This is not me vs the club thing, i understand its a free hit. I'm just being honest. I think they're a bust.
Forget who is saying this, and look at the simple facts. The club has to delist at least 3 players. Will it be all older players who leave? Usually some younger players will get booted as well. Is it unfathomable that there would be a handful asked to move on? Binns, Lemmey, White, Elijah, Durdin all left or got pushed this year. There's 5.
If you wanted to include irish rookies next year, you only need 3 more. Billy Wilson, Flynn Young, Charleson, 2x Campos......could all be on the chopping block if there is no development from them this year.
This is just the reality of AFL lists and list sizes
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on November 24, 2025, 09:13:45 pm
I understand you're at odds with the club's direction but maybe it's worthwhile trying to see what the plan is for the next couple of years.
Rather than listing the Irish boys as 'real positive', Thry has highlighted them as an unknown weak point.
They do need to show something otherwise it's back home. The fact the club are persisting with it at virtually no cost is an indication that they're willing to give it another year.
The heading was... Developing Kids who are playing ahead or on schedule: I don't know of anyone, besides maybe thry, who thinks they are 'on schedule'. This is not me vs the club thing, i understand its a free hit. I'm just being honest. I think they're a bust.
Forget who is saying this, and look at the simple facts. The club has to delist at least 3 players. Will it be all older players who leave? Usually some younger players will get booted as well. Is it unfathomable that there would be a handful asked to move on? Binns, Lemmey, White, Elijah, Durdin all left or got pushed this year. There's 5.
If you wanted to include irish rookies next year, you only need 3 more. Billy Wilson, Flynn Young, Charleson, 2x Campos......could all be on the chopping block if there is no development from them this year.
This is just the reality of AFL lists and list sizes
after all I posted thats what you took away?
Fixed it for you. Happy now? Its still the same delineation, and we will cut from the afl group as well as the none ready group moving forward but there is one important distinction between the two groups. Players leaving the first group were afl ready but not good enough. Players being axed from the second group will be because they arent going to get there with us.
No one expects the Irish to make it, but technically they're key position sized.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 24, 2025, 11:25:43 pm
Many seem to be hung up on the height (or lack there of) of our fwd line. Brisbane Premiership Fwd Line Charlie Cameron 180cm Ty Gallop 194cm Callum Ah Chee 182cm average height = 186.5cm Cameron Rayner 187cm Logan Morris 191cm Kai Lohmann 185cm
2026 Potential Fwd Line Hayward 186cm McKay 204cm Moir 188cm average height =190.2cm Evans 182cm O'Keeffe 202cm Ainsworth 179cm Then there is: Jesse Motlop 180cm Talor Byrne 174cm Zac Williams 183cm Brodie Kemp 192cm
I see no issue, just saying.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 25, 2025, 02:13:03 am
The heading was... Developing Kids who are playing ahead or on schedule: I don't know of anyone, besides maybe thry, who thinks they are 'on schedule'. This is not me vs the club thing, i understand its a free hit. I'm just being honest. I think they're a bust.
Forget who is saying this, and look at the simple facts. The club has to delist at least 3 players. Will it be all older players who leave? Usually some younger players will get booted as well. Is it unfathomable that there would be a handful asked to move on? Binns, Lemmey, White, Elijah, Durdin all left or got pushed this year. There's 5.
If you wanted to include irish rookies next year, you only need 3 more. Billy Wilson, Flynn Young, Charleson, 2x Campos......could all be on the chopping block if there is no development from them this year.
This is just the reality of AFL lists and list sizes
after all I posted thats what you took away?
Fixed it for you. Happy now? Its still the same delineation, and we will cut from the afl group as well as the none ready group moving forward but there is one important distinction between the two groups. Players leaving the first group were afl ready but not good enough. Players being axed from the second group will be because they arent going to get there with us.
No one expects the Irish to make it, but technically they're key position sized.
I don't know what you want me to say? You broke down the list into 2 groups by age. You suggesting the young group is the direction that the list management team is focusing on and that we will be ok with this direction based on those players. That's an opinion. My opinion is that your opinion would have made a better point without shoehorning people in to back up that point.
Yes both older people and younger people will be cut. My point about that was you can't say how good the young group is when some of them will be cut next year. Same point as above, shoehorning people in hurts your statement imho.
I'm not bagging out your overall statement, I'm not asking you to put up a sacked list in just saying listing all of our young players and saying they are on schedule is a fallacy.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: madbluboy on November 25, 2025, 07:13:37 am
I don't think they're neglecting any positions, they're just not broadcasting (for obvious reasons) that it's a rebuild.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 25, 2025, 07:21:43 am
Shoehorning?
Is that like saying if a player isn't 198cm plus, and built like Tarzan then they are not a Key Position player. :D
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 25, 2025, 07:30:04 am
Many seem to be hung up on the height (or lack there of) of our fwd line. Brisbane Premiership Fwd Line Charlie Cameron 180cm Ty Gallop 194cm Callum Ah Chee 182cm average height = 186.5cm Cameron Rayner 187cm Logan Morris 191cm Kai Lohmann 185cm
2026 Potential Fwd Line Hayward 186cm McKay 204cm Moir 188cm average height =190.2cm Evans 182cm O'Keeffe 202cm Ainsworth 179cm Then there is: Jesse Motlop 180cm Talor Byrne 174cm Zac Williams 183cm Brodie Kemp 192cm
I see no issue, just saying.
Exactamundo, GTC old son. The Brisvegas forward line says 'mobility and multiple goal kicking options.'
If you're a traditional 'tall' key position forward in the modern game, you better have more tricks than just your height.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on November 25, 2025, 08:05:40 am
Fixed it for you. Happy now? Its still the same delineation, and we will cut from the afl group as well as the none ready group moving forward but there is one important distinction between the two groups. Players leaving the first group were afl ready but not good enough. Players being axed from the second group will be because they arent going to get there with us.
No one expects the Irish to make it, but technically they're key position sized.
I don't know what you want me to say? You broke down the list into 2 groups by age. You suggesting the young group is the direction that the list management team is focusing on and that we will be ok with this direction based on those players. That's an opinion. My opinion is that your opinion would have made a better point without shoehorning people in to back up that point.
The point is the point. The Irish lads are currently talls in that under age bracket. They arent shoe horned in there. They might do a setanta one day, or they might be delisted but this is where our list is at today. You dont like that, and THAT is a you problem. Yes both older people and younger people will be cut. My point about that was you can't say how good the young group is when some of them will be cut next year. Same point as above, shoehorning people in hurts your statement imho.
I'm not bagging out your overall statement, I'm not asking you to put up a sacked list in just saying listing all of our young players and saying they are on schedule is a fallacy.
nah you're being pedantic. You know exactly what I intended and are playing politician. Argue a point that wasn't being made. I divided the list into the two groups and said prioritising the second layer if you want to be pedantic, not focusing on the second.
Hence why ainsworth was recruited and we also brought in the other more mature players.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 25, 2025, 08:17:34 am
Is that like saying if a player isn't 198cm plus, and built like Tarzan then they are not a Key Position player. :D
Don't know, never said that.
Never said you did...just asking for a friend. So I guess we won't be hearing anymore about players not being 'big'enough to play key positon. It will always be about being able to handle the role.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 25, 2025, 10:25:26 am
The way I see it is that we're doing a mini-rebuild but working the opposite way to Silvagni who developed the spine first. What we seem to be embarking on over the last couple of draft trade periods is working on building a base of younger, smaller players with a mix of specific skills that complement each other. Lumping the small/medium forwards into one group is wrong, because each and every one of them bring different qualities
That doesn't mean totally ignoring the taller key position players as they become available, but wait for quality (Dean). If it's not avaliable at your pick don't waste it on a 'maybe'. We all agree talls take time. The question is what gives you the greatest chance of picking up a good one. Draft them at 18 (where physical maturity is all over the shop) or wait until you see the player at a more mature age and grab them through trade or free agency.
At the moment we can probably say that the development of most young players is on track...but just through the nature of turnover in list management they won't all survive the cut. Thry's given a pretty good account of where they are all at.
The Irishmen will need to get a wiggle on, they don't trouble the statisticians, they don't really stand-out, but both play as defenders so it may be they're doing the jobs set for them which means the club is OK continuing the experiment for another year. Duffy has only had the one year after a season recovering from injury. We'll know a whole lot more as to their longevity next year when a decision will be made. It costs us little,but the club is persevering so they must see something.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on November 25, 2025, 11:48:45 am
Matt Duffy has had one pre-season and has played only 13 games of footy in his life. He is 194cm and 90kg, he can mark the pill (5 marks in a game is his best), he kicks the ball very well, can run like the wind, and he plays a physical brand of footy. He has also been dropped in at the deep end being asked to play as a key defender against big blokes who have grown up playing footy.
I think that Matt shows a lot more potential than many of the KPPs that were taken in the national draft. While this may well be his make or break year, I wouldn't be writing him off just yet.
Rob Monahan is 189cm and 86kg and he is a year ahead of Duffy. He has played 35 VFL games and has shown significant improvement in his second season after being moved into defence. He has picked up the nuances of our game, makes good position, uses the ball well and is fleet of foot. Like Duffy, he was dropped in at the deep end in his first season when asked to play as a KPF. His game against Collingwood this season was outstanding for a bloke in his second season of footy, but he needs to bring that form every week.
It's a make or break year for Rob too, and he'll need to continue his improvement if he's going to stick around.
As cat B rookies, the Irish lads cost us very little and they have greater potential than Ty Gresham, at this stage.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: LP on November 25, 2025, 01:57:05 pm
The title of the thread says it all.
One of the biggest problems the AFL has is nepotism, and that leads to known knowns ruining the game. You get a bunch of Old Boys running the sport the way they learned to play it, formulaic, lacking innovation, they are stuck in the "they know best" mode of operation.
But most footballer's won't ever be useful coaches or tactical geniuses, on the whole they are gifted athletic robots who learned a repetitive task to perfection. When somebody turns up with an out of the box solution like Dimma did with Nthmond, a genuine advantage is gained and the robots try to copy it. The genius of Dimma was that he looked at the list he had and the current state of the rules and devised a game plan that suited the resource on hand, he didn't try to change the resource to fit his idea of perfection.
It's a fundamental truth that if you just copy everybody else you'll never be better than average.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 25, 2025, 02:10:52 pm
I don't know what you want me to say? You broke down the list into 2 groups by age. You suggesting the young group is the direction that the list management team is focusing on and that we will be ok with this direction based on those players. That's an opinion. My opinion is that your opinion would have made a better point without shoehorning people in to back up that point.
The point is the point. The Irish lads are currently talls in that under age bracket. They arent shoe horned in there. They might do a setanta one day, or they might be delisted but this is where our list is at today. You dont like that, and THAT is a you problem. Yes both older people and younger people will be cut. My point about that was you can't say how good the young group is when some of them will be cut next year. Same point as above, shoehorning people in hurts your statement imho.
I'm not bagging out your overall statement, I'm not asking you to put up a sacked list in just saying listing all of our young players and saying they are on schedule is a fallacy.
nah you're being pedantic. You know exactly what I intended and are playing politician. Argue a point that wasn't being made. I divided the list into the two groups and said prioritising the second layer if you want to be pedantic, not focusing on the second.
Hence why ainsworth was recruited and we also brought in the other more mature players.
TBH, i don't know what point you are trying to make and that might be where the confusion is.
My understanding is you've split the list in 2. You highlighted/prioritised/focussed on the younger group and put that into a best 23, thats not a best 23. You've said the group is on schedule, which i disagree with and have said why.
So what have i got wrong from that?
Are you saying that we are rebuilding? Are you saying that the current crop will exceed our older players? Are you saying we don't care about traditional positions? Are you saying that we are covered in traditional positions?
There doesn't appear to be a conclusion.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on November 25, 2025, 02:20:54 pm
nah you're being pedantic. You know exactly what I intended and are playing politician. Argue a point that wasn't being made. I divided the list into the two groups and said prioritising the second layer if you want to be pedantic, not focusing on the second.
Hence why ainsworth was recruited and we also brought in the other more mature players.
TBH, i don't know what point you are trying to make and that might be where the confusion is.
My understanding is you've split the list in 2. You highlighted/prioritised/focussed on the younger group and put that into a best 23, thats not a best 23. You've said the group is on schedule, which i disagree with and have said why.
So what have i got wrong from that?
Are you saying that we are rebuilding? Are you saying that the current crop will exceed our older players? Are you saying we don't care about traditional positions? Are you saying that we are covered in traditional positions?
There doesn't appear to be a conclusion.
I didnt say they were on schedule. Read it again
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 25, 2025, 02:29:43 pm
Never said you did...just asking for a friend. So I guess we won't be hearing anymore about players not being 'big'enough to play key positon. It will always be about being able to handle the role.
Pedantic seems to be word of the thread.
If a player is not 'big enough' to play KP, it is implied that they cannot handle the role. Alternatively, just because players are big enough, doesn't mean they can handle the role.
I've been pretty consistent on this and not sure i've ever listed height as requiring a minimum.
I have said that i think Kemp is best suited to a '3rd tall' role than a 1st/2nd tall role (in part because he will have a lesser opponent on him)....but not mentioned his height as the reason.
I questioned whether Dean could play on the 2m types as my only criticism of him, one which was backed up by those in the know. That doesn't mean he can't play taller than his height, but may struggle on the really tall players. Which, even Weitering struggles with. Thats fine 99% of the AFL would struggle with that.
I can't recall where, but someone was talking about Bret Thornton the other day and saying they felt sorry for him and the club wrecked him. Why? They asked him to do more than he was capable of, simply because we didn't have anyone else who could do it better.....or as well. He was undersized for a KPP (with his attributes, not a freak athelete or anything) but did very well with what he had. This is kinda what i'm worried about. Doens't matter who is on your list, you can always write a name to play CHF. Height doesn't stop you from writing a name. Can they do the job required? Who knows. Certain attributes make it easier for you to the job required though.....and for KPPs, height is something that can compensate for other areas, and its not something that has to be trained.
If you are setting up your ideal player on AFL '26 and there is no cap on your attributes, what do you do? Speed? high or low? High, obviously faster is best. Awareness? high or low? high Acceleration? high or low? High Agility? high or low? high Endurance? high or low? high Height?? high or low? high is better. If all things are equal, there is no advantage of being small. You don't have to be tall, but in an ideal world, you are.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 25, 2025, 02:30:47 pm
TBH, i don't know what point you are trying to make and that might be where the confusion is.
My understanding is you've split the list in 2. You highlighted/prioritised/focussed on the younger group and put that into a best 23, thats not a best 23. You've said the group is on schedule, which i disagree with and have said why.
So what have i got wrong from that?
Are you saying that we are rebuilding? Are you saying that the current crop will exceed our older players? Are you saying we don't care about traditional positions? Are you saying that we are covered in traditional positions?
There doesn't appear to be a conclusion.
I didnt say they were on schedule. Read it again
No you did. You edited it later. I cut/paste it into my reply with lods.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on November 25, 2025, 04:23:20 pm
Ok then Senator, lets go back to what you quoted given you are so fixated on it:
Developing Kids who are playing ahead or on schedule.
Give us your interpretation of why that is wrong considering the Irish lads are playing VFL football?
Would that have them playing on schedule? Particularly when one of them suffered an ACL injury (yep that curse hit us on the speculative option as well) before he even arrived at the club!
Using Setanta O'Hailpin who was a mixed bag of "successful" he was recruited in 2004 spent the year in the VFL, made his debut in 2005 (his second season) and was introduced to a team that was dead last on the ladder at the time playing a grand total of 1 game.
Just to dot point this, how old were they when they made their AFL debut:
Zach Tuohy was 21 years old Setanta O'Hailpin was 22 years old
The two Irish lads we have dont really have the same hype and fanfare I remember seeing about Tuohy and Setanta either, but guess what Rob is only 21, and Duffy coming back off an ACL injury is 22, so considering the ACL gives him an extra 12 months leeway, if either get a game at AFL level, one could logically conclude they are on schedule, particularly when you consider that they are joining a better outfit than the one Setanta joined anyway.
So now that we have established that, remove your fixation on that, and the fact that I have highlighted them solely as players who fit the bill of being young and developing. I didnt put any expectation on guys I havent seen at AFL level, because they are an as yet unknown quantity being judged by what they do at VFL level, and what attributes
Anyway, no doubt there will be another argument. Im not a fan of it, but we have been rebuilding on the down low which is probably why we had players walk last season, which is a testament to why they needed to go. Sometimes kids give you better than senior players. Just ask Brisbane.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 25, 2025, 05:28:48 pm
Ok then Senator, lets go back to what you quoted given you are so fixated on it:
Developing Kids who are playing ahead or on schedule.
Give us your interpretation of why that is wrong considering the Irish lads are playing VFL football?
Would that have them playing on schedule? Particularly when one of them suffered an ACL injury (yep that curse hit us on the speculative option as well) before he even arrived at the club!
Using Setanta O'Hailpin who was a mixed bag of "successful" he was recruited in 2004 spent the year in the VFL, made his debut in 2005 (his second season) and was introduced to a team that was dead last on the ladder at the time playing a grand total of 1 game.
Just to dot point this, how old were they when they made their AFL debut:
Zach Tuohy was 21 years old Setanta O'Hailpin was 22 years old
The two Irish lads we have dont really have the same hype and fanfare I remember seeing about Tuohy and Setanta either, but guess what Rob is only 21, and Duffy coming back off an ACL injury is 22, so considering the ACL gives him an extra 12 months leeway, if either get a game at AFL level, one could logically conclude they are on schedule, particularly when you consider that they are joining a better outfit than the one Setanta joined anyway.
So now that we have established that, remove your fixation on that, and the fact that I have highlighted them solely as players who fit the bill of being young and developing. I didnt put any expectation on guys I havent seen at AFL level, because they are an as yet unknown quantity being judged by what they do at VFL level, and what attributes
Anyway, no doubt there will be another argument. Im not a fan of it, but we have been rebuilding on the down low which is probably why we had players walk last season, which is a testament to why they needed to go. Sometimes kids give you better than senior players. Just ask Brisbane.
Why are they 'on schedule' because they are playing VFL football? What are they supposed to be doing, playing tiddlywinks??
You can compare them against whoever you want from the past, present and future and no 2 people will completely agree. My opinion is they are too far behind everyone else they are competing against and will not make it based on how they are performing at VFL level. Plenty of players, irish included, were showing more than these boys at the same point in time, some you mentioned. Talk about O'hailpin, you mentioned Setanta but not Aisake. He had more agility, athleticism and even work ethic compared to our current 2 and he still couldn't crack it for a game.....and we had a worse side then too.
I'm still waiting for clarification on your contention/conclusion/point.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on November 25, 2025, 07:56:58 pm
Ok then Senator, lets go back to what you quoted given you are so fixated on it:
Developing Kids who are playing ahead or on schedule.
Give us your interpretation of why that is wrong considering the Irish lads are playing VFL football?
Would that have them playing on schedule? Particularly when one of them suffered an ACL injury (yep that curse hit us on the speculative option as well) before he even arrived at the club!
Using Setanta O'Hailpin who was a mixed bag of "successful" he was recruited in 2004 spent the year in the VFL, made his debut in 2005 (his second season) and was introduced to a team that was dead last on the ladder at the time playing a grand total of 1 game.
Just to dot point this, how old were they when they made their AFL debut:
Zach Tuohy was 21 years old Setanta O'Hailpin was 22 years old
The two Irish lads we have dont really have the same hype and fanfare I remember seeing about Tuohy and Setanta either, but guess what Rob is only 21, and Duffy coming back off an ACL injury is 22, so considering the ACL gives him an extra 12 months leeway, if either get a game at AFL level, one could logically conclude they are on schedule, particularly when you consider that they are joining a better outfit than the one Setanta joined anyway.
So now that we have established that, remove your fixation on that, and the fact that I have highlighted them solely as players who fit the bill of being young and developing. I didnt put any expectation on guys I havent seen at AFL level, because they are an as yet unknown quantity being judged by what they do at VFL level, and what attributes
Anyway, no doubt there will be another argument. Im not a fan of it, but we have been rebuilding on the down low which is probably why we had players walk last season, which is a testament to why they needed to go. Sometimes kids give you better than senior players. Just ask Brisbane.
Why are they 'on schedule' because they are playing VFL football? What are they supposed to be doing, playing tiddlywinks??
You can compare them against whoever you want from the past, present and future and no 2 people will completely agree. My opinion is they are too far behind everyone else they are competing against and will not make it based on how they are performing at VFL level. Plenty of players, irish included, were showing more than these boys at the same point in time, some you mentioned. Talk about O'hailpin, you mentioned Setanta but not Aisake. He had more agility, athleticism and even work ethic compared to our current 2 and he still couldn't crack it for a game.....and we had a worse side then too.
I'm still waiting for clarification on your contention/conclusion/point.
Mr speaker, I believe the senator is now changing his argument because he doesnt like the Irish lads.
My contention is that we prioritised bringing in young talent in order to pass the proverbial baton from the older guard that might have won us something, in an effort to build a younger layer to the team and prevent us from bottoming out. That group will come good about the time tassie joins (or not).
It puts our recruiting in a different perspective and thats all im aiming for.
Now ive given you a point, what point are you making kruddler?
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 25, 2025, 08:21:16 pm
Mr speaker, I believe the senator is now changing his argument because he doesnt like the Irish lads.
My contention is that we prioritised bringing in young talent in order to pass the proverbial baton from the older guard that might have won us something, in an effort to build a younger layer to the team and prevent us from bottoming out. That group will come good about the time tassie joins (or not).
It puts our recruiting in a different perspective and thats all im aiming for.
Now ive given you a point, what point are you making kruddler?
We've recruited 8 players so far. 3x 18yo's at the draft 22yo 25yo 3x27yo's =average age 23
If we exclude the 2 retiring players =Average age 24.
Given every team gets younger this time of year, i'm not sure we have done anything out of the ordinary.
Personally, i don't see as changing tact at all, or doing anything different to the norm. TBH, i'm surprised we took as many 'older' players as we did.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 25, 2025, 09:16:04 pm
Mr speaker, I believe the senator is now changing his argument because he doesnt like the Irish lads.
My contention is that we prioritised bringing in young talent in order to pass the proverbial baton from the older guard that might have won us something, in an effort to build a younger layer to the team and prevent us from bottoming out. That group will come good about the time tassie joins (or not).
It puts our recruiting in a different perspective and thats all im aiming for.
Now ive given you a point, what point are you making kruddler?
We've recruited 8 players so far. 3x 18yo's at the draft 22yo 25yo 3x27yo's =average age 23
If we exclude the 2 retiring players =Average age 24.
Given every team gets younger this time of year, i'm not sure we have done anything out of the ordinary.
Personally, i don't see as changing tact at all, or doing anything different to the norm. TBH, i'm surprised we took as many 'older' players as we did.
It's not so much the age as the make-up of the list...but we did add Smith, O Farrell and the Camporeale's last year
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on November 25, 2025, 09:35:37 pm
That will continue next year too. We wont be adding mature players unless its a free agent. Elijah Hollands was one too. Hit that sweet spot. Campbell Chesser too. Frankie Evans.
I haven't come up with it on my own, its something that Ive gleaned from listening to the comments of Docherty where he mentioned he would have preferred someone more mature aged.
We did bring in Haynes, but that was a relative free hit given the price we paid. If the asking price was higher, we wouldnt have bothered I think.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on November 25, 2025, 09:36:59 pm
I think I flagged it when we went out and picked up Cerra and Hewett rather than going the draft. It was the mature aged player to help fill around Walsh, as we had too many draft misses and it also had the effect of fleshing out that middle part of the team that was a bit low on bonafide AFL footballers.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 26, 2025, 07:07:19 am
I haven't come up with it on my own, its something that Ive gleaned from listening to the comments of Docherty where he mentioned he would have preferred someone more mature aged.
This is something i flagged too.
Doc seems to think, and i agreed before i heard him say this, that instead of adding ready to go talent to the list that made a prelim, we did the opposite and got younger/weaker as a list....and results showed. Myself and eb1 were very vocal about it. We've now done that 2 years in a row imo. Ultimately i think some of what we did last year helped players move this year. Which imo means we'll fall again.... but lack of injuries can stop that.
Long term it might be the right thing to do.
Starting a rebuild to a side that made the prelim seems to be something only carlton would do though.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 26, 2025, 08:51:48 am
It was absolutely the right thing to do. I wrote before last year's draft that the time was running out for the class of 2015, and by extension Cripps and Docherty. And that we were looking very light on for youth. We've addressed that in the last two drafts and we're looking much better in terms of the future.
It's sad for players like Docherty. It may have influenced Silvagni and Curnow.
But I'm not sure who we could have added in that recruiting period after the prelim that would have made a significant difference.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on November 26, 2025, 10:32:40 am
Its a catch 22. Do you do a Geelong, try load up and get that flag?
We were soundly beaten by the best side in the comp (Brisbane) in finals, and were able to match it with the also rans in our other finals well enough.
I think they've calculated that if things went perfectly, we could have been in the frame for a flag, but they havent, and as a result, we havent been in that frame properly.
Personally, you can only put yourself in the mix. We had all the ingredients, but the game went away from our strength and towards our weakness, and no individual acquisition would likely have changed us sufficiently to do anything but wind up like the crows of the 2025 season. As soon as Rankine went out, they went from rolled gold, to rubbish.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on November 26, 2025, 10:33:40 am
It was absolutely the right thing to do. I wrote before last year's draft that the time was running out for the class of 2015, and by extension Cripps and Docherty. And that we were looking very light on for youth. We've addressed that in the last two drafts and we're looking much better in terms of the future.
It's sad for players like Docherty. It may have influenced Silvagni and Curnow.
But I'm not sure who we could have added in that recruiting period after the prelim that would have made a significant difference.
Doc’s preference was understandable coming from the perspective of a player in the twilight of his career. It wasn’t informed by the truckloads of data accumulated by all list managers and probably didn’t take into consideration the availability of players with the potential to improve our list.
In other words, while clearly better informed than most supporters, Doc’s list management opinion is just that.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: LP on November 26, 2025, 01:23:00 pm
In other words, while clearly better informed than most supporters, Doc’s list management opinion is just that.
All personal opinions show bias, it's why clubs have committees of management.
Even so you can still find decisions being dominated by emotions and individuals, it's sometimes hard to cut the apron string. Some of this debate shows it, with welded on opinions about how we played and structured up in the past, and why we need it to continue versus change. Change is tough.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 26, 2025, 03:11:58 pm
It was absolutely the right thing to do. I wrote before last year's draft that the time was running out for the class of 2015, and by extension Cripps and Docherty. And that we were looking very light on for youth. We've addressed that in the last two drafts and we're looking much better in terms of the future.
It's sad for players like Docherty. It may have influenced Silvagni and Curnow.
But I'm not sure who we could have added in that recruiting period after the prelim that would have made a significant difference.
See i find these comments from you fascinating.
I was highlighting time is running out, so we needed to start drafting our spine replacements. I was told by you, and others, that either we had plenty of time or we had enough cover with what we had.
I was also told i was thinking of the now with recruiting these replacements when all along i was trying to prepare for this very moment.
Now you say it was the right thing to do? This seems very contradictory from you.
Of course, that aside is still doesn't conform if it is the right time. Geelong and Collingwood wouldn't have done it. They've been ready to fall off the age cliff for the better part of 2 decades now in geelongs case, less so for the pies, but still, they are old and holding on.
Eg pendles if he plays on after next year will play against Cody walker. He not only played with his dad, but was drafted just 2 years after him. Imagine if they started a rebuild like we did when we did.
So no, i don't think it was the right thing to do. I think had we drafted kpps when i flagged it, we wouldn't need to be doing one now either.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Baggers on November 26, 2025, 04:04:46 pm
I strongly suspect that our list management leadership team is very well aware of what we need in the short term and what our longer term needs are.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 26, 2025, 04:14:29 pm
I strongly suspect that our list management leadership team is very well aware of what we need in the short term and what our longer term needs are.
They wouldn't have kept their jobs if they weren't!
A couple of months back there was a flurry of excitement about the prospect of Graham Wright taking over and, if not sacking our list management team, taking control of our list management. Not only did Austin, Agresta and co survive, but Wright was in there with them as they negotiated terrible trades and pick swaps and drafted the wrong players. Either Austin and Agresta managed to corrupt Wright or they have been on the right track all along.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 26, 2025, 04:34:21 pm
I strongly suspect that our list management leadership team is very well aware of what we need in the short term and what our longer term needs are.
They wouldn't have kept their jobs if they weren't!
A couple of months back there was a flurry of excitement about the prospect of Graham Wright taking over and, if not sacking our list management team, taking control of our list management. Not only did Austin, Agresta and co survive, but Wright was in there with them as they negotiated terrible trades and pick swaps and drafted the wrong players. Either Austin and Agresta managed to corrupt Wright or they have been on the right track all along.
Let me put it to you this way.
Every club has list managers. Every club has people who kept their job. Does that mean every club has competent people at the helm?
We have had list managers for decades. How has our success gone over that same period.
I put to you that having a job, or even having someone with credibility overseeing them in that job, does NOT equal competent list managers, or any particular role.
.....and....even if they are deemed competent in that role. Does competent win you flags?
I don't share the blind faith that a lot seem to. Why? Because there is no evidence that they are any different to anyone else we've had and nobody else has been able to give us success.
What is it about the current crop that sets them apart from.... a) Previous people in the same role at this club b) Their equivalents at other clubs currently.
Provide an answer to them and convince me.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on November 26, 2025, 05:16:57 pm
They wouldn't have kept their jobs if they weren't!
A couple of months back there was a flurry of excitement about the prospect of Graham Wright taking over and, if not sacking our list management team, taking control of our list management. Not only did Austin, Agresta and co survive, but Wright was in there with them as they negotiated terrible trades and pick swaps and drafted the wrong players. Either Austin and Agresta managed to corrupt Wright or they have been on the right track all along.
Let me put it to you this way.
Every club has list managers. Every club has people who kept their job. Does that mean every club has competent people at the helm?
We have had list managers for decades. How has our success gone over that same period.
I put to you that having a job, or even having someone with credibility overseeing them in that job, does NOT equal competent list managers, or any particular role.
.....and....even if they are deemed competent in that role. Does competent win you flags?
I don't share the blind faith that a lot seem to. Why? Because there is no evidence that they are any different to anyone else we've had and nobody else has been able to give us success.
What is it about the current crop that sets them apart from.... a) Previous people in the same role at this club b) Their equivalents at other clubs currently.
Provide an answer to them and convince me.
The fact of the matter is that you have a fixed opinion on list management. Some would call it an idiosyncratic opinion, some may think you're on the money, some may think that you're partly correct and others may think that you're completely wrong.
I, for one, appreciate how difficult AFL list management is. Do our list managers get it right all of the time? No, none of them do. Do our list managers get it right most of the time? Yes they do.
Would I like to see another gun KPF on our list? Of course I would. Do I understand that gun KPFs are as rare as rocking horse dung? Yes I do. Do I think that our list managers are doing everything within their power to give Vossy the most potent forward line possible? Yes I do. Do I think that we should have drafted any of the KPFs that were available at our picks. No I don't.
Do I think that our club's ranking of A- for our list management team's work at the draft is fair? Yes I do; it was a job very well done in terms of the players drafted, the strategy we followed, our pick trades and our much strengthened hand for the 2026 draft. That's what sets them apart from other list managers.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 26, 2025, 05:46:41 pm
Do I think that our club's ranking of A- for our list management team's work at the draft is fair? Yes I do; it was a job very well done in terms of the players drafted, the strategy we followed, our pick trades and our much strengthened hand for the 2026 draft. That's what sets them apart from other list managers.
We had a target of the type of players we wanted. We got them, and some future picks in the process. That's why we got an a-.
Do those who give out those rankings no more about our team and it's needs than those on here? I doubt it, but it's sells papers.
Was that the right strategy? Not so sure.
So it team followed a plan brilliantly. Fantastic. Not doubting that.
My question though is what makes you think our team know what they are doing better than anyone else?
Everyone has a plan. Everyone follows that plan. Why is this plan the right plan when all the other plans are apparently the wrong plan??
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on November 26, 2025, 05:56:45 pm
@DJC not sure how you are so definitive on the following:
Quote
Do I think that we should have drafted any of the KPFs that were available at our picks. No I don't.
.
Its very early to tell whether or not this was the correct action or not. I think that potentially looking at where our list is at, vs where its going to be at, rather than invite a train on player, we might have been better served taking Ludowyke, and not trading the way we did, however it is solely one strategy.
We wont know for quite some time if it was worthwhile.
Do I think that our club's ranking of A- for our list management team's work at the draft is fair? Yes I do; it was a job very well done in terms of the players drafted, the strategy we followed, our pick trades and our much strengthened hand for the 2026 draft. That's what sets them apart from other list managers.
We had a target of the type of players we wanted. We got them, and some future picks in the process. That's why we got an a-.
Do those who give out those rankings no more about our team and it's needs than those on here? I doubt it, but it's sells papers.
Was that the right strategy? Not so sure.
So it team followed a plan brilliantly. Fantastic. Not doubting that.
My question though is what makes you think our team know what they are doing better than anyone else?
Everyone has a plan. Everyone follows that plan. Why is this plan the right plan when all the other plans are apparently the wrong plan??
On the plans, I think you can only have a look at the strategy and plan, and say there is one, or its devoid of one.
Our guys appear to be following a script, and that script you may disagree with, but its a definite strategy either way you cut it.
Which means they do have an idea, rather than no idea.
The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry is a saying that harks from somewhere for good reason.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 26, 2025, 06:22:03 pm
Talk about politician answers thry.
They have A plan. So they have some idea. They are following that script, so they must have some idea.
You get kidnapped, blindfolded and dumped in the middle of nowhere. Anyone can come up with a plan on whether they should go North, east, south or west. They can follow that plan perfectly.....and go in the complete wrong direction in the process.
Having a plan, and following a plan are a good start......but its the actual plan that i'm struggling to see positives about and all that aside, the confidence in the people (regardless of the plan) that people have and where that confidence comes from.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 26, 2025, 07:21:54 pm
It was absolutely the right thing to do. I wrote before last year's draft that the time was running out for the class of 2015, and by extension Cripps and Docherty. And that we were looking very light on for youth. We've addressed that in the last two drafts and we're looking much better in terms of the future.
It's sad for players like Docherty. It may have influenced Silvagni and Curnow.
But I'm not sure who we could have added in that recruiting period after the prelim that would have made a significant difference.
See i find these comments from you fascinating.
I was highlighting time is running out, so we needed to start drafting our spine replacements. I was told by you, and others, that either we had plenty of time or we had enough cover with what we had.
I was also told i was thinking of the now with recruiting these replacements when all along i was trying to prepare for this very moment.
Now you say it was the right thing to do? This seems very contradictory from you.
Of course, that aside is still doesn't conform if it is the right time. Geelong and Collingwood wouldn't have done it. They've been ready to fall off the age cliff for the better part of 2 decades now in geelongs case, less so for the pies, but still, they are old and holding on.
Eg pendles if he plays on after next year will play against Cody walker. He not only played with his dad, but was drafted just 2 years after him. Imagine if they started a rebuild like we did when we did.
So no, i don't think it was the right thing to do. I think had we drafted kpps when i flagged it, we wouldn't need to be doing one now either.
The difference of opinion lies in how we acquire KPP's You want to draft them I want to trade them in, or grab them via free agency Too much uncertainty about a 'project' player If you can get a good one in the first round (Dean) go for it. If not, go looking.
There's been no inconsistency in my opinion we had a problem with youth since I raised it before last years draft. If anything I was just a bit behind the recruiters who were already on the case. I've caught up now.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on November 26, 2025, 07:22:18 pm
I disagree Kruddler. A politician would change the argument, cares only about how they're perceived and making their opponent look bad whilst painting themselves in a good light.
I think what you said regarding topping up and going for the flag tilt makes a lot of sense, but its one strategy. It doesnt mean it would have worked. It also doesn't mean it was not the right strategy.
Likewise what theyve done instead is only incorrect currently. It could look very different it two years and be a master stroke. Had we topped up and then we lost players as we did without experiencing success then how does it look? would it have been a bottom out this year and a few years in the wilderness?
We cant know the other path once you start making decisions.
Rightly or wrongly we've employed a strategy.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 26, 2025, 07:35:09 pm
That's the crux of the problem People are looking at a half-finished project as if it's complete It's a work in progress. The recruiters may be adopting an approach that you may not agree with. Those that are concerned with the approach are pessimistic. Those that are happy with the direction are optimistic.
But until we see how things develop any definitive judgement is premature. What's gone before has little bearing on the road ahead. There's a new sheriff and deputy in town with a bit of experience If they're not happy with the direction...it will change (and a few jobs as well)
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 26, 2025, 10:11:27 pm
I was highlighting time is running out, so we needed to start drafting our spine replacements. I was told by you, and others, that either we had plenty of time or we had enough cover with what we had.
I was also told i was thinking of the now with recruiting these replacements when all along i was trying to prepare for this very moment.
Now you say it was the right thing to do? This seems very contradictory from you.
Of course, that aside is still doesn't conform if it is the right time. Geelong and Collingwood wouldn't have done it. They've been ready to fall off the age cliff for the better part of 2 decades now in geelongs case, less so for the pies, but still, they are old and holding on.
Eg pendles if he plays on after next year will play against Cody walker. He not only played with his dad, but was drafted just 2 years after him. Imagine if they started a rebuild like we did when we did.
So no, i don't think it was the right thing to do. I think had we drafted kpps when i flagged it, we wouldn't need to be doing one now either.
The difference of opinion lies in how we acquire KPP's You want to draft them I want to trade them in, or grab them via free agency Too much uncertainty about a 'project' player If you can get a good one in the first round (Dean) go for it. If not, go looking.
There's been no inconsistency in my opinion we had a problem with youth since I raised it before last years draft. If anything I was just a bit behind the recruiters who were already on the case. I've caught up now.
Re kpps.
The value at the draft is the same as any other position. The value via trade is inflated more than any other position. For midfielders and small forwards value via trade is a lot cheaper.
Buy low, sell high.
As for free agency, there is 2 problems with your logic imo. 1. Players get to choose where they will go and if you are languishing down the bottom they will choose elsewhere. I expect to be unattractive to free agents. 2. In order to get them otherwise, you pay overs, very much overs and blow up your salary cap in the process and piss off existing players... who take the opportunity to go elsewhere.
Look at when brisbane got fev. Look at the collateral damage that caused. Bradshaw and rischitelli didn't like being shopped around and left. Henderson (a former pick 8) took the opportunity to jump ship...and a 1st rounder went with it. All for a bloke who played 17 games and was in a salary equivalent to what tdk moved for.
That's how you want to get your kpps?
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 26, 2025, 10:22:38 pm
That's the crux of the problem People are looking at a half-finished project as if it's complete It's a work in progress.
Sometimes i wonder if im the only one that remembers our performances over the past 2 decades. The above is the caption under the photo of cfc post 2000.
I find the timing terrible. We are rebuilding a prelim side when we hadn't been a prelim side for 2 decades.
I accept we will be better in a couple years than we are now. I have serious doubts we will be better than we were a couple years ago.
I think we could have avoided being here earlier but that ship had sailed. I think the 'start with the spine' approach is the proven method to get the team up and going together at the right time and the current method takes the destiny out of our hands somewhat as we are relying on poaching players to get better.
I'm not saying our current strategy will fail. I'm not saying our current team cannot achieve success. But i know where the smart money would be and I'm yet to see evidence to justify the blind faith in the current list management team.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 26, 2025, 11:02:09 pm
The difference of opinion lies in how we acquire KPP's You want to draft them I want to trade them in, or grab them via free agency Too much uncertainty about a 'project' player If you can get a good one in the first round (Dean) go for it. If not, go looking.
There's been no inconsistency in my opinion we had a problem with youth since I raised it before last years draft. If anything I was just a bit behind the recruiters who were already on the case. I've caught up now.
As for free agency, there is 2 problems with your logic imo. 1. Players get to choose where they will go and if you are languishing down the bottom they will choose elsewhere. I expect to be unattractive to free agents. 2. In order to get them otherwise, you pay overs, very much overs and blow up your salary cap in the process and piss off existing players... who take the opportunity to go elsewhere.
Free agents won't choose us if we're languishing at the bottom of the ladder?...they probably won't, altough I suspect contract dollars will be a bigger attraction.
But who declares we'll be at the bottom?...that's just an assumption to support the argument. Your expectations are just a guess. Who wouldn't want to play with players the calibre of Cripps, Walsh, Weitering etc.
To trades- If you want Charlie Curnow it will probably cost you three first rounders. But you dont do the trade at the player's peak. You do it when the opportunity arises, the player fits your needs, they show a bit and still have plenty of time to develop(22-23 years). It may cost you a little more but it's value compared to an 18 year old man/child in the draft.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 26, 2025, 11:10:32 pm
That's the crux of the problem People are looking at a half-finished project as if it's complete It's a work in progress.
Sometimes i wonder if im the only one that remembers our performances over the past 2 decades. The above is the caption under the photo of cfc post 2000.
I find the timing terrible. We are rebuilding a prelim side when we hadn't been a prelim side for 2 decades.
I accept we will be better in a couple years than we are now. I have serious doubts we will be better than we were a couple years ago.
I think we could have avoided being here earlier but that ship had sailed. I think the 'start with the spine' approach is the proven method to get the team up and going together at the right time and the current method takes the destiny out of our hands somewhat as we are relying on poaching players to get better.
I'm not saying our current strategy will fail. I'm not saying our current team cannot achieve success. But i know where the smart money would be and I'm yet to see evidence to justify the blind faith in the current list management team.
Once again..."the smart money" is just your guess. The past is irrelevant. What matters is what's happening now. We all know the past...we've lived the few 'ups' and many downs over the last 25 years. It's a different time and a different group controlling things. It may go the same way again-but not because we're doing things the same. Sure there are Navy Blue glasses, but there are also 'Debbie Downer' glasses where everthing is painted in a "maybe it will turn out OK but I wouldnt bet on it" fashion.
I know which is the 'happy' one for the now. ;)
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 26, 2025, 11:14:31 pm
As for free agency, there is 2 problems with your logic imo. 1. Players get to choose where they will go and if you are languishing down the bottom they will choose elsewhere. I expect to be unattractive to free agents. 2. In order to get them otherwise, you pay overs, very much overs and blow up your salary cap in the process and piss off existing players... who take the opportunity to go elsewhere.
Free agents won't choose us if we're languishing at the bottom of the ladder?...they probably won't, altough I suspect contract dollars will be a bigger attraction.
But who declares we'll be at the bottom?...that's just an assumption to support the argument. Your expectations are just a guess. Who wouldn't want to play with players the calibre of Cripps, Walsh, Weitering etc.
To trades- If you want Charlie Curnow it will probably cost you three first rounders. But you dont do the trade at the player's peak. You do it when the opportunity arises, the player fits your needs, they show a bit and still have plenty of time to develop(22-23 years). It may cost you a little more but it's value compared to an 18 year old man/child in the draft.
Riddle me this then. Who wanted to come to us this year? Why didn't we get a kpp that fits your description this year? Why wouldn't they want to come and play with cripps, Walsh and weitering? What will change this time next year that will allow it to happen? What about the following year when tassie every and have an open cheque book to wave around? Why would players choose us?
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 27, 2025, 07:36:38 am
It's a two way street. Who wanted to come? Who did we want to come?
Plenty of players wanted to come. Reidy Chesser Ainsworth Florent Hayward.
...and poor old Khamis. We were even knocking them back.
Our priorities for next year will determine who we chase, and who we ask the question of, but there is certainly a pathway to get experienced talent into the club through trade and free agency. There were half a dozen free agents moved this year...there are a few available next year, as well as some out of contract players.
See something you like.... https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/out_of_contract_players?year=2026
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: LP on November 27, 2025, 10:23:45 am
This issue about "attracting" a KPP, we've BigH and Weiters, one is a Coleman medalist and the other an AA defender.
Pretty much every available KPP trade option will see themselves behind those two in the pecking order, and they will certainly be behind Cripps as a F50 2nd or 3rd tall, so a trade or FA might not see us as such a destination.
Even so we obtained Dean via the Draft and that has potentially already solidified our position longer term.
As far as KPPs are concerned, at the moment as a selection strategy it appears to live or die by each season's AFL rule changes. Personally, I can't see any stability coming out of the AFL decision making process, it will be interesting to see what happens in the next draft / trade period as Tassie become more involved. The 200cm types might be in the gun because they are the hardest to find some quality, just being 200cm isn;t enough as we have learned from Lemmey and Mirkov, and it's likely the AFL won't want Tassie disadvantaged by loading it up on 2nd Tier options.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 27, 2025, 11:44:56 am
If you're a young KPP with a bit of ability you'd probably look at Weitering and McKay and think to yourself ...it wouldn't be too bad being a second fiddle to those two, knowing that if you were any good you'd be the 'number one' down the track. Guys that see that as a challenge rather than a deterrent are the ones you actually want.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 27, 2025, 02:14:57 pm
If you're a young KPP with a bit of ability you'd probably look at Weitering and McKay and think to yourself ...it wouldn't be too bad being a second fiddle to those two, knowing that if you were any good you'd be the 'number one' down the track. Guys that see that as a challenge rather than a deterrent are the ones you actually want.
So our list management strategy is seeing who wants to come to us and work in with what we have.
....and if nobody wants to come to us??
This is where the draft cuts out the 'want' side of things. If they end up wanting out, then so be it, but you've got something of value you can trade. If not, then problem solved.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 27, 2025, 02:58:44 pm
If you're a young KPP with a bit of ability you'd probably look at Weitering and McKay and think to yourself ...it wouldn't be too bad being a second fiddle to those two, knowing that if you were any good you'd be the 'number one' down the track. Guys that see that as a challenge rather than a deterrent are the ones you actually want.
So our list management strategy is seeing who wants to come to us and work in with what we have.
....and if nobody wants to come to us??
This is where the draft cuts out the 'want' side of things. If they end up wanting out, then so be it, but you've got something of value you can trade. If not, then problem solved.
"What if no-one wants to come to us..." Seriously?
You do some really good, deep analysis and then you pull out these 'extreme' conclusions. At the end of the day it's all a guess and personal opinion, embellished with a bit of bias as to how we would do things. The draft has it's place, but that place loses its importance the deeper into the draft you go. Recruiting has a lot of elements and there comes a point where one element becomes preferable over another. Talls are always risky through the draft. You might draft 4 or 5 for nil result Yet a look at young players with a couple of years experience and you have a better idea of the player they might be.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 27, 2025, 03:19:53 pm
So our list management strategy is seeing who wants to come to us and work in with what we have.
....and if nobody wants to come to us??
This is where the draft cuts out the 'want' side of things. If they end up wanting out, then so be it, but you've got something of value you can trade. If not, then problem solved.
"What if no-one wants to come to us..." Seriously?
You do some really good, deep analysis and then you pull out these 'extreme' conclusions. At the end of the day it's all a guess and personal opinion, embellished with a bit of bias as to how we would do things. The draft has it's place, but that place loses its importance the deeper into the draft you go. Recruiting has a lot of elements and there comes a point where one element becomes preferable over another. Talls are always risky through the draft. You might draft 4 or 5 for nil result Yet a look at young players with a couple of years experience and you have a better idea of the player they might be.
Refer to my previous comments. Am i the only one that remembers the previous 2 decades?
2003 trades..... Heath Scotland Daniel Harford Corey McGrath Brett Johnson Digby Morrell David Teague David Clarke
2004... Troy Longmiu Callum Chambers
2005.... Jason Saddington
This is the type of talent we could get our hands on or should i say, the only ones that would come to us. Why didn't we recruit gun players if it was so easy? Do i need to show your more years to prove a point??
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 27, 2025, 03:37:55 pm
"What if no-one wants to come to us..." Seriously?
You do some really good, deep analysis and then you pull out these 'extreme' conclusions. At the end of the day it's all a guess and personal opinion, embellished with a bit of bias as to how we would do things. The draft has it's place, but that place loses its importance the deeper into the draft you go. Recruiting has a lot of elements and there comes a point where one element becomes preferable over another. Talls are always risky through the draft. You might draft 4 or 5 for nil result Yet a look at young players with a couple of years experience and you have a better idea of the player they might be.
Refer to my previous comments. Am i the only one that remembers the previous 2 decades?
2003 trades..... Heath Scotland Daniel Harford Corey McGrath Brett Johnson Digby Morrell David Teague David Clarke
2004... Troy Longmiu Callum Chambers
2005.... Jason Saddington
This is the type of talent we could get our hands on or should i say, the only ones that would come to us. Why didn't we recruit gun players if it was so easy? Do i need to show your more years to prove a point??
I'm not sure why you are dwelling on the past. It's gone. It has no bearing on the present. We have different people running the show. I suspect with a bit more of an idea.
But the players you mention there were traded in because most of our premiership side were aging or had retired an we had diddly squat in terms of draft picks due to penalties and trade value....and free agency wasn't a thing then. Added to that a few of those mentioned were more than serviceable and in a better side would have been valuable.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 27, 2025, 03:48:26 pm
I'm not sure why you are dwelling on the past. It's gone. It has no bearing on the present. We have different people running the show. I suspect with a bit more of an idea.
But the players you mention there were traded in because most of our premiership side were aging or had retired an we had diddly squat in terms of draft picks due to penalties and trade value....and free agency wasn't a thing then. Added to that a few of those mentioned were more than serviceable and in a better side would have been valuable.
I'm trying to point out multiple things.
1. Just because people have a job and a plan, doesn't mean it will be successful. 2. We have a history of making wrong calls and/or going in the wrong direction. 3. What we 'want' doesn't really matter. Its what other players want....and if nobody wants to come to us, this current plan is pointless.
Ask your average joe on whether carlton will improve or drop this year. Betting odds give you an idea if you don't want to run your own poll.
Given the above, if you are looking at changing clubs, would you choose us?
Before your answer.... Who is choosing Essendon right now? Like us, players are wanting out of Essendon, including their captain. There was rumours that our own captain wouldn't be opposed to a trade. What if this year it becomes a reality?
OK, forget about the last part and go back to points 1-3, why is this time different? Thats all i'm asking.
People seem supremely confident in the current direction. Why?
IMO, its simple and falls into 2 categories. 1. Navy coloured glasses. 2. Because the alternative is too depressing to contemplate.
So why bring up the past? 1. ....because talk about the present gets shutdown as a work in progress 2. ....because talk about the future is pure speculation 3. .....thats all thats left to prove a point!
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 27, 2025, 04:02:37 pm
From Foxsports commenting on coaches in the hotseat and ranking them. Like myself and a few other others they are not sharing the enthusiasm for the player ins/outs total result. 1. Michael Voss (Carlton)
After coming awfully close to being dismissed this year, there irrefutably isn’t anyone on a hotter seat in the competition than Voss, who was allowed to coach into the final year of his current contract in 2026. The Blues under Voss built to a 13-win 2023 campaign that netted a preliminary final berth, before stagnating last year and regressing to nine wins in 2025. But is it finals or bust for the four-year Carlton coach? Should that be the pass mark? Off-season list changes — with Charlie Curnow, Tom De Koning and Jack Silvagni all notably departing — complicate matters, as it’s hard to argue Carlton improved its personnel for Voss to utilise. The Blues did gain Will Hayward and Ollie Florent and will hopefully have a healthy Jagga Smith back in the fold, but that still might not be enough in the short term to save Voss.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: PaulP on November 27, 2025, 04:50:14 pm
I don't understand how commentators can declare a coach is under massive pressure, yet those same commentators argue that our list is weaker. Basically saying Voss has to achieve more with less. Top shelf drivel.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on November 27, 2025, 05:00:41 pm
I don't understand how commentators can declare a coach is under massive pressure, yet those same commentators argue that our list is weaker. Basically saying Voss has to achieve more with less. Top shelf drivel.
Yes, it's weak article written by someone with scant regard for the facts and minimal analytical ability.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on November 27, 2025, 05:07:23 pm
So our list management strategy is seeing who wants to come to us and work in with what we have.
....and if nobody wants to come to us??
This is where the draft cuts out the 'want' side of things. If they end up wanting out, then so be it, but you've got something of value you can trade. If not, then problem solved.
"What if no-one wants to come to us..." Seriously?
You do some really good, deep analysis and then you pull out these 'extreme' conclusions. At the end of the day it's all a guess and personal opinion, embellished with a bit of bias as to how we would do things. The draft has it's place, but that place loses its importance the deeper into the draft you go. Recruiting has a lot of elements and there comes a point where one element becomes preferable over another. Talls are always risky through the draft. You might draft 4 or 5 for nil result Yet a look at young players with a couple of years experience and you have a better idea of the player they might be.
The what if game:
What if we topped up two years ago and won a flag?
What if we topped up with B grade recruits ala Richmond post 3 peat, and then bottomed out like they have with everyone wanting out to greener pastures so they can rebuild anew?
What if we hadnt sacked Ratten and appointed Malthouse?
What if we hadnt let Eddie Betts leave?
What if SOS hadnt drafted Finbar O Dwyer?
What if Baldilocks hadnt had a falling out with SOS?
What if my grandmother had testicles?
Its all well and good to hypothesize, but we have built a layer of kids that can carry us forward now players have started dropping off from the heady days of 2 half good seasons. We recruited ready mades in Cerra, Hewett, Saad, Mcgovern and Williams. It got us into also ran status, and whilst we started believing we were good enough, it didnt come together for long enough before this season to really make us believe we could win it.
Why? IMHO it was dumb luck. We put ourselves in the frame, but we still had too much left to too few, and were never really dominant looking like we could win from anywhere. It happend a handfull of times, but not as regularly as Collingwood 2023 who you just knew would find a way, nor as regularly as Brisbane over the last 5 years who have played as many poor games as we have really accomplished ones. Partly through injury. So many players missing entire seasons from our team. Im not hoping we dont lose one, im hoping its someone we care less about these days and wont impact our fortunes greatly.
The kids dont look like they will win us much, but there are a few prospective 200 gamers in that young lot, and between HOF and what we think Dean will be, our key position defenders are set for the next 10 years.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 27, 2025, 05:40:16 pm
I don't understand how commentators can declare a coach is under massive pressure, yet those same commentators argue that our list is weaker. Basically saying Voss has to achieve more with less. Top shelf drivel.
Yes, it's weak article written by someone with scant regard for the facts and minimal analytical ability.
Not really, it's on the money, Voss has to achieve more with less and Wright has left him as the fall guy by not extending him causing that extra pressure. No one is buying that losing TDK, Jack and Charlie has made us better and its all about the optics of Carlton not sacking another coach to make the club looking like it's changed it's ways but it's going to be a mammoth task for Voss to survive.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: MickyO on November 27, 2025, 06:17:28 pm
Yes, it's weak article written by someone with scant regard for the facts and minimal analytical ability.
Not really, it's on the money, Voss has to achieve more with less and Wright has left him as the fall guy by not extending him causing that extra pressure. No one is buying that losing TDK, Jack and Charlie has made us better and its all about the optics of Carlton not sacking another coach to make the club looking like it's changed it's ways but it's going to be a mammoth task for Voss to survive.
I hope he is able to do it!
At least he won’t have a few there playing half arsed this year.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Professer E on November 27, 2025, 06:23:55 pm
The media blow torch will be on full heat until we re-sign Voss and Walsh. Like hungry sharks the vermin in the football media detect the faintest trace of blood in the water, then the frenzy starts. Nothing sells papers like (yet another) Carlton $hit storm
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 27, 2025, 06:28:19 pm
I don't understand how commentators can declare a coach is under massive pressure, yet those same commentators argue that our list is weaker. Basically saying Voss has to achieve more with less. Top shelf drivel.
Not sure if you've read these very forums, but i can understand where the pressure is coming from because many around here think we've improved our list in the off-season.
If those same people make enough noise when things go bad, then it gets really bad really quickly.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 27, 2025, 06:34:19 pm
There's a common thread here with both players and coach. It all depends on what happens onfield next year. There's no escaping it. Results will determine who was right and who was wrong.
I look at it this way. We have a new regime who has taken an active role in List management over the last few months. They seem to have endorsed the approach in recruiting.
Brad Lloyd was pretty much tarred and feathered as being responsible for all our ills. But his departure hasn't seemed to ease the angst.
Optimists or pessimists. Pick a team. I know which will make folks happier.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: PaulP on November 27, 2025, 06:53:09 pm
Not sure if you've read these very forums, but i can understand where the pressure is coming from because many around here think we've improved our list in the off-season.
If those same people make enough noise when things go bad, then it gets really bad really quickly.
My issue is not opinions on here. My issue is a certain cadre of individuals in the media who talk sh1t. The default position for any Carlton coach is the rotisserie, even if we recruit a bunch of U10's from around the corner. One hopes the club can adjust expectations accordingly, either up or down, in way that fairly represents our position, not this "no excuses" crap.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on November 27, 2025, 06:59:00 pm
Yes, it's weak article written by someone with scant regard for the facts and minimal analytical ability.
Not really, it's on the money, Voss has to achieve more with less and Wright has left him as the fall guy by not extending him causing that extra pressure. No one is buying that losing TDK, Jack and Charlie has made us better and its all about the optics of Carlton not sacking another coach to make the club looking like it's changed it's ways but it's going to be a mammoth task for Voss to survive.
We lost an athletic ruckman with potential, a dual Coleman Medalist who was playing like he didn’t give a toss and an injury-prone, slow defender with all of 12 games as a KPD under his belt. Only Tom was part of our late season return to form. We’ve more than covered their loss with blokes who want to play for the club and give us greater depth, versatility and goal scoring ability.
We’ve brought in experienced assistants with new ideas, a director of coaching to wrangle the assistants, and Travis Boak to take a dedicated leadership and culture role. Voss has more support than ever and a better list than he had last season.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 27, 2025, 08:05:26 pm
Not sure if you've read these very forums, but i can understand where the pressure is coming from because many around here think we've improved our list in the off-season.
If those same people make enough noise when things go bad, then it gets really bad really quickly.
My issue is not opinions on here. My issue is a certain cadre of individuals in the media who talk sh1t. The default position for any Carlton coach is the rotisserie, even if we recruit a bunch of U10's from around the corner. One hopes the club can adjust expectations accordingly, either up or down, in way that fairly represents our position, not this "no excuses" crap.
Well they proved this year there is change as they didnt listen to the media DHs and sack the coach before his term was up. Having said that, IF we have another poor year and IF they decide not to go fwd with the coach following a thorough review, that's a different story to me. I dont reckon Wright and Co. will be swayed by media, supporters, ex players or current players who aren't prepared to work hard,
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 27, 2025, 08:35:49 pm
Not really, it's on the money, Voss has to achieve more with less and Wright has left him as the fall guy by not extending him causing that extra pressure. No one is buying that losing TDK, Jack and Charlie has made us better and its all about the optics of Carlton not sacking another coach to make the club looking like it's changed it's ways but it's going to be a mammoth task for Voss to survive.
We lost an athletic ruckman with potential, a dual Coleman Medalist who was playing like he didn’t give a toss and an injury-prone, slow defender with all of 12 games as a KPD under his belt. Only Tom was part of our late season return to form. We’ve more than covered their loss with blokes who want to play for the club and give us greater depth, versatility and goal scoring ability.
We’ve brought in experienced assistants with new ideas, a director of coaching to wrangle the assistants, and Travis Boak to take a dedicated leadership and culture role. Voss has more support than ever and a better list than he had last season.
I'll disagree on the list coverage for those departed players, the players we have brought in are either throws at the stumps or handy B graders but I dont see any real dial movers that will be keeping other clubs up late with worry. Director of coaching....not a fan of the position or the incumbent for reasons I have discussed previously and the Assistants cant really be judged until seasons end and we can see what went right or wrong during the season in their areas of responsibility. Boak hopefully can improve our leadership and find some new leaders for the future.... I also dont see many of the top teams falling away apart from Collingwood, and expect the competition to be even tougher next season making it even harder to make the top 8.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 27, 2025, 08:47:09 pm
We lost an athletic ruckman with potential, a dual Coleman Medalist who was playing like he didn’t give a toss and an injury-prone, slow defender with all of 12 games as a KPD under his belt. Only Tom was part of our late season return to form. We’ve more than covered their loss with blokes who want to play for the club and give us greater depth, versatility and goal scoring ability.
We’ve brought in experienced assistants with new ideas, a director of coaching to wrangle the assistants, and Travis Boak to take a dedicated leadership and culture role. Voss has more support than ever and a better list than he had last season.
I'll disagree on the list coverage for those departed players, the players we have brought in are either throws at the stumps or handy B graders but I dont see any real dial movers that will be keeping other clubs up late with worry. Director of coaching....not a fan of the position or the incumbent for reasons I have discussed previously and the Assistants cant really be judged until seasons end and we can see what went right or wrong during the season in their areas of responsibility. Boak hopefully can improve our leadership and find some new leaders for the future.... I also dont see many of the top teams falling away apart from Collingwood, and expect the competition to be even tougher next season making it even harder to make the top 8.
Whos the director of coaching? We dont have one.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: PaulP on November 27, 2025, 08:56:52 pm
I'll disagree on the list coverage for those departed players, the players we have brought in are either throws at the stumps or handy B graders but I dont see any real dial movers that will be keeping other clubs up late with worry. Director of coaching....not a fan of the position or the incumbent for reasons I have discussed previously and the Assistants cant really be judged until seasons end and we can see what went right or wrong during the season in their areas of responsibility. Boak hopefully can improve our leadership and find some new leaders for the future.... I also dont see many of the top teams falling away apart from Collingwood, and expect the competition to be even tougher next season making it even harder to make the top 8.
Disagree all you like.
For someone who is keen on labelling our players “injury-prone” you don’t think that Jack and Charlie had just a touch of injury-pronitis?
Florent and Hayward were drafted the year after Charlie and Jack but they’ve both played 56 more games than Jack and 35 more than Charlie.
State league players and delisted free agents are throws at the stumps but we didn’t follow the EB list management manual. The handy B graders - Reidy and Chesser - have plenty of potential.
Adam Simpson is not “Director of Coaching”. He reports to Voss and has a part time role mentoring the assistant coaches.
I wouldn’t be so sure about teams not falling away. Brisbane will be stronger if anything and Gold Coast should be better. The cellar dwellers will stay where they are and there will be 9 or 10 teams battling for the top six.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 27, 2025, 10:11:36 pm
Not sure if you've read these very forums, but i can understand where the pressure is coming from because many around here think we've improved our list in the off-season.
If those same people make enough noise when things go bad, then it gets really bad really quickly.
My issue is not opinions on here. My issue is a certain cadre of individuals in the media who talk sh1t. The default position for any Carlton coach is the rotisserie, even if we recruit a bunch of U10's from around the corner. One hopes the club can adjust expectations accordingly, either up or down, in way that fairly represents our position, not this "no excuses" crap.
Yeah, i get that, but where do the media get this from? The see it games, they hear it on talkback radio, they see it on social media.
We start it, they broadcast it, we continue it, they enhance it.....
Far be it from me to stick up for the media, but they do it with Carlton because Carlton does it to itself.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 27, 2025, 10:22:58 pm
My issue is not opinions on here. My issue is a certain cadre of individuals in the media who talk sh1t. The default position for any Carlton coach is the rotisserie, even if we recruit a bunch of U10's from around the corner. One hopes the club can adjust expectations accordingly, either up or down, in way that fairly represents our position, not this "no excuses" crap.
Yeah, i get that, but where do the media get this from? The see it games, they hear it on talkback radio, they see it on social media.
We start it, they broadcast it, we continue it, they enhance it.....
Far be it from me to stick up for the media, but they do it with Carlton because Carlton does it to itself.
You're right. They do get a lot from social media and talkback forums. Because of our supporter numbers we may get a bit more airtime on talkback. But if you have a look at the various club forums (bigfooty club boards are a good example) it's pretty obvious that we're not Robinson Crusoe when it comes to Club criticism. All supporters do it. The other thing is we're probably the club that attracts more criticism from opposition supporters than any other club by a big margin. They like to kick us while we're struggling.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on November 27, 2025, 10:38:26 pm
Yeah, i get that, but where do the media get this from? The see it games, they hear it on talkback radio, they see it on social media.
We start it, they broadcast it, we continue it, they enhance it.....
Far be it from me to stick up for the media, but they do it with Carlton because Carlton does it to itself.
You're right. They do get a lot from social media and talkback forums. Because of our supporter numbers we may get a bit more airtime on talkback. But if you have a look at the various club forums (bigfooty club boards are a good example) it's pretty obvious that we're not Robinson Crusoe when it comes to Club criticism. All supporters do it. The other thing is we're probably the club that attracts more criticism from opposition supporters than any other club by a big margin. They like to kick us while we're struggling.
Yes and no.
As a general rule, Carlton supporters are more passionate. I think that largely comes down to our ethnic background which is/was unique to Carlton, the suburb, and has continued on.
I can say this, because i am one, but generally wogs/Italians barrack for Carlton.....well more likely to barrack for Carlton. Its certainly not limited to that ethnicity, but club support is generational and thats our history. Italians are also known for their passion. Thus Carlton are 'slightly different' to other teams. I'm not sure if that translates to those 'north of the border' like yourself, but its definitely a thing down here.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on November 27, 2025, 11:07:20 pm
You're right. They do get a lot from social media and talkback forums. Because of our supporter numbers we may get a bit more airtime on talkback. But if you have a look at the various club forums (bigfooty club boards are a good example) it's pretty obvious that we're not Robinson Crusoe when it comes to Club criticism. All supporters do it. The other thing is we're probably the club that attracts more criticism from opposition supporters than any other club by a big margin. They like to kick us while we're struggling.
Yes and no.
As a general rule, Carlton supporters are more passionate. I think that largely comes down to our ethnic background which is/was unique to Carlton, the suburb, and has continued on.
I can say this, because i am one, but generally wogs/Italians barrack for Carlton.....well more likely to barrack for Carlton. Its certainly not limited to that ethnicity, but club support is generational and thats our history. Italians are also known for their passion. Thus Carlton are 'slightly different' to other teams. I'm not sure if that translates to those 'north of the border' like yourself, but its definitely a thing down here.
Hard to say for sure. I remember years ago there was a figure that 20% of our members lived outside of either Melbourne or Victoria (not sure which) but that was a while ago, and the club doesn't appear to give a breakdown of the different numbers in membership categories these days.
What is apparent is that support for the club is nationwide. That used to be obvious at Swans games when they first went to Sydney, and again when I went to a game on the Gold Coast a few years back. There was just as many people in Carlton jumpers as there were in the jumpers of the home teams. Back in the day the only vision many states got of AFL was a 'match of the day' each week. It was a golden era for us and we'd feature more than any club in those games most years. That may have done something for our interstate popularity.
I'm always surprised when I ask who people support and the answer comes back ...Carlton. Just on this forum I suspect if you took a survey of where folks lived it would be surprising how many live out of Melbourne or intersate. I can think of quite a few without even trying too hard.
Anyway back to the fight. :D
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: northernblue on November 28, 2025, 08:49:27 am
Not really, it's on the money, Voss has to achieve more with less and Wright has left him as the fall guy by not extending him causing that extra pressure. No one is buying that losing TDK, Jack and Charlie has made us better and its all about the optics of Carlton not sacking another coach to make the club looking like it's changed it's ways but it's going to be a mammoth task for Voss to survive.
We lost an athletic ruckman with potential, a dual Coleman Medalist who was playing like he didn’t give a toss and an injury-prone, slow defender with all of 12 games as a KPD under his belt. Only Tom was part of our late season return to form. We’ve more than covered their loss with blokes who want to play for the club and give us greater depth, versatility and goal scoring ability.
We’ve brought in experienced assistants with new ideas, a director of coaching to wrangle the assistants, and Travis Boak to take a dedicated leadership and culture role. Voss has more support than ever and a better list than he had last season.
Don’t forget that everyone has returned to pre season fitter than they’ve ever been… 🙄
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on November 30, 2025, 10:30:37 pm
How many of those in the room were there decades ago?
Fine, look at the last couple years then
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 01, 2025, 09:24:09 am
You mean the injury hit 2024 and the injury/off field disaster of 2025 Jagga Smith, Harry O'Farrell, the Camporeale boys. Dean and Ison this year, and loading up for Cody Walker next year. I'm pretty happy with the last couple of years of recruitment.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2025, 09:36:04 am
You mean the injury hit 2024 and the injury/off field disaster of 2025 Jagga Smith, Harry O'Farrell, the Camporeale boys. Dean and Ison this year, and loading up for Cody Walker next year. I'm pretty happy with the last couple of years of recruitment.
Campo boys are good because they are father/sons. Similarly with Dean and Ison. We took them because they were ours. Jagga is fine, but i would've preferred a different midfielder and a KPP instead of the trading up we did. HOF is fine No mention of anyone else? Why? The 6 small(er) forwards we've taken over that period paint a different picture.
Fantasia, Evans, White, Young, Ainsworth and Byrne....when we already had Williams, Cottrell, Fogarty, Motlop, Durdin, E.Hollands, Moir to do a similar role.
Variety is the spice of life. Variety builds a successful team. We are not successful. We've gone backwards since we made the prelim......and lets not forget how many injuries we had in that prelim year as well.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 01, 2025, 09:58:30 am
The problem, is Kruds you dump anyone under 190cm into the small forward label.
Variety is the spice of life, and those players all bring different strengths to the party. Yep, They all have their weaknesses too But quite a few of them are in our best 23. What they do is give us depth... and options to structure up in a number of different ways. You keep saying your not being negative, but before I even read your first response to the video of draft night I knew that even if you gave them some faint praise you'd have a sting in the tail.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: madbluboy on December 01, 2025, 10:04:30 am
Praise for what Lods? We selected a father son and our acedmy pick.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2025, 10:17:54 am
The problem, is Kruds you dump anyone under 190cm into the small forward label.
Variety is the spice of life, and those players all bring different strengths to the party. Yep, They all have their weaknesses too But quite a few of them are in our best 23. What they do is give us depth... and options to structure up in a number of different ways. You keep saying your not being negative, but before I even read your first response to the video of draft night I knew that even if you gave them some faint praise you'd have a sting in the tail.
Quite a few are in our best 23? I would hope so, they take up 1/4 of our list.
All players bring different strengths, sure. We can't play them all though. I keep hearing these players can play wing or midfield, none of them have made the best 23 (so far) in the midfield yet.....and that doesn't include the mid/half back types vying for the same positions like Campox2, hollands, charleson, now chesser, florent etc.
Yes those players give us depth and ability to structure up in a different way. We already had depth and ability to structure up in a different way. We don't have depth, or ability to structure up a different way in other areas though.
I'd already given my response to our drafting previously, you want me to change that because of a video? I just echoed what i said previously. They executed their plan, kudos. I still think its the wrong plan though. A feel good video is suposed to make me change my mind?
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 01, 2025, 11:07:53 am
Our NGA is part of our list management strategy. The fact that we drafted Ison is evidence that our NGA is finally working.
Harry Dean’s development is also a product of our NGA and he’s ready to go as a result. The downside is that we were forced to use more points than if he’d had no connection to the club. Cody Walker is going through a similar experience that should make for a seamless transition from under 18s to AFL.
We were fortunate that Ison drifted and we were able to draft Byrne as well as shoring up our points for the 2026 draft … but you make your own luck by exhaustive scenario planning.
Our list management moved out of the dark ages with SOS’s appointment. Austin and Agresta have pushed its evolution forward and we’re at least the equal of the best in the business now. Of course, that doesn’t mean an instant improvement in our on field fortunes as sustainable list development takes time. The better performing teams have developing players waiting in the wings and can maintain their ladder positions through seamless replacement of departing players. We’re finally getting to that point.
In previous years we’ve tended to bring in a couple of players in the twilight of their careers as insurance or to plug gaps. With the exception of Nick Haynes, a recruitment masterstroke, all of our incoming players are now at the beginning or the peak of their careers.
While I do think that size matters, it’s not something worth obsessing over.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 01, 2025, 11:33:35 am
Praise for what Lods? We selected a father son and our acedmy pick.
Kruddler gave them 'faint praise' for having a plan. He also said he didn't agree with it. So it was pretty faint :D
I think he's agreeing with me Lods. Doesn't see why they are getting so much praise when all they did was draft blokes we knew we were getting.
I'd be a hypocrite if i agreed with it wouldn't I?
I've been pretty consistent on this for the better part of a decade now i reckon. Every year i hear that 'you need to give them time, or results want show for a few years etc', well i'm still waiting. I think there would need to be a minor miracle occur this year for me to be proven wrong as i think the slide will continue with only minmal injuries (very unlike us) likely to overcome that slide.
But hey, this thread is about different ways to do things and they are executed what they set out to do which i've given them credit for. Just saying i wouldn't be going down the same path as them.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Baggers on December 01, 2025, 06:26:57 pm
Praise for what Lods? We selected a father son and our acedmy pick.
It's not that we got Harry and Jack, we were always going to get them as you pointed out, but it was the way we did it - swapping picks and going further back into the draft yet keeping necessary points, then being able to secure a future 2nd and 3rd in the process of getting our targets + Taylor Byrne.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 01, 2025, 06:32:27 pm
Kruddler gave them 'faint praise' for having a plan. He also said he didn't agree with it. So it was pretty faint :D
I think he's agreeing with me Lods. Doesn't see why they are getting so much praise when all they did was draft blokes we knew we were getting.
I'd be a hypocrite if i agreed with it wouldn't I?
I've been pretty consistent on this for the better part of a decade now i reckon. Every year i hear that 'you need to give them time, or results want show for a few years etc', well i'm still waiting. I think there would need to be a minor miracle occur this year for me to be proven wrong as i think the slide will continue with only minmal injuries (very unlike us) likely to overcome that slide.
But hey, this thread is about different ways to do things and they are executed what they set out to do which i've given them credit for. Just saying i wouldn't be going down the same path as them.
I respect the fact that you've been consistent. Nothing wrong with that. The only issue with consistency is that at some point we may have to change our minds regarding a fixed position. It then becomes a case of flexibility. A bit of give in a set position. You're not there yet...You may never be, and in fact you may end up being right. As Baggers points out the wheeling and dealing on draft night was a bit more complicated than just securing Dean and Ison. If it had been Silvagni we'd probably be giving him kudos for his pick swapping
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2025, 06:40:42 pm
I think he's agreeing with me Lods. Doesn't see why they are getting so much praise when all they did was draft blokes we knew we were getting.
I'd be a hypocrite if i agreed with it wouldn't I?
I've been pretty consistent on this for the better part of a decade now i reckon. Every year i hear that 'you need to give them time, or results want show for a few years etc', well i'm still waiting. I think there would need to be a minor miracle occur this year for me to be proven wrong as i think the slide will continue with only minmal injuries (very unlike us) likely to overcome that slide.
But hey, this thread is about different ways to do things and they are executed what they set out to do which i've given them credit for. Just saying i wouldn't be going down the same path as them.
I respect the fact that you've been consistent. Nothing wrong with that. The only issue with consistency is that at some point we may have to change our minds regarding a fixed position. It then becomes a case of flexibility. A bit of give in a set position. You're not there yet...You may never be, and in fact you may end up being right. As Baggers points out the wheeling and dealing on draft night was a bit more complicated than just securing Dean and Ison. If it had been Silvagni we'd probably be giving him kudos for his pick swapping
I've given them kudos for what they did. Thats what they wanted to do. They had a plan and acheived it. Its my issue with the plan itself, always has been.
I still think we should've gone a different direction, both last year and this year.
Fun fact, if we didn't do what we did last year, we wouldn't have had to do what we did this year. We had to do all these trades to dig us out of the hole they traded us in to last year. ;)
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 01, 2025, 06:48:28 pm
Doesn't see why they are getting so much praise when all they did was draft blokes we knew we were getting.
You don't think all list managers go into a draft knowing which players they will draft or, if not, the players they are most likely to draft?
The only difference is that we had to announce the two players we were targeting rather than keeping shtum.
Yeah, which took all the guesswork out of it. Yet they are hailed as great leaders and innovators.....and added a small forward to the mix.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 01, 2025, 07:08:54 pm
I guarantee there was a list of players they were interested in. At one point on the video they said someone was off the board before they made the decision to trade with Brisbane.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 01, 2025, 07:09:32 pm
@kruddler you're simplifying it. They were scenario planning for multiple outcomes, and this video shows it in action.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2025, 07:31:33 pm
@Thry.....
I get that, but at the end of the day, all we needed was points. You can get that a million ways....as we saw.
Had we done literally nothing, we could've ended up with the same exact players....just without maybe some future picks.
Yes, i'm aware of the benefit of future picks, but similar to this year, those picks are as much about points as it is about the actual picks. With future less important for points than this year (and any other year previous). So how important they will be is yet to be determined.
I'm much more impressed with someone like Essendon preying on someone desperate for points and bringing in top end talent at the expense of later picks. Something we fail to take advantage of. In fact i suggested we do exactly that with Gold Coast prior to draft night after i highlighted that they screwed up by not giving themselves enough picks. They did multiple trades on draft night to counteract that, i think we got a future 3rd out of it which we probably won't use as is anyway.
For teams, like us, and gold coast who know what talent they are getting, its simply a numbers game. Get as many points as possible and try and sell off any excess later and take whatever is left later in the draft.
I would've liked to have worked our way into using a pick 20-ish on some more a-grade talent, than a pick 47 on a small forward and some future picks.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: madbluboy on December 01, 2025, 07:47:56 pm
Praise for what Lods? We selected a father son and our acedmy pick.
It's not that we got Harry and Jack, we were always going to get them as you pointed out, but it was the way we did it - swapping picks and going further back into the draft yet keeping necessary points, then being able to secure a future 2nd and 3rd in the process of getting our targets + Taylor Byrne.
It was a no brainer. I said we would be trading the picks as soon as we got them.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 01, 2025, 08:12:37 pm
I guarantee there was a list of players they were interested in. At one point on the video they said someone was off the board before they made the decision to trade with Brisbane.
There was talk on some forums earlier in the night that our targets were Dean, Ison, Byrne and Emmett Three out of four ain't bad...but he would probably have been a good pick-up.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2025, 08:23:18 pm
I guarantee there was a list of players they were interested in. At one point on the video they said someone was off the board before they made the decision to trade with Brisbane.
There was talk on some forums earlier in the night that our targets were Dean, Ison, Byrne and Emmett Three out of four ain't bad...but he would probably have been a good pick-up.
Some might remember me saying before night 2 that we should trade up with the kangas to get the 1st pick of the night to.... a) Guarantee us a pick before Ison was bid on. b) Get whichever player we wanted from what was left without having to worry about another team taking him
Lucky for us Ison wasn't bid on anyway. Unlucky (or poor planning??) that 'our guy' was taken right before we had the chance to take him.
All these things are easy in hindsight, sure, but let the record show i called it at the time. I just was unaware that we were targetting Emmett over my preference of Ludowycke,
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 01, 2025, 09:44:56 pm
There was talk on some forums earlier in the night that our targets were Dean, Ison, Byrne and Emmett Three out of four ain't bad...but he would probably have been a good pick-up.
Some might remember me saying before night 2 that we should trade up with the kangas to get the 1st pick of the night to.... a) Guarantee us a pick before Ison was bid on. b) Get whichever player we wanted from what was left without having to worry about another team taking him
Lucky for us Ison wasn't bid on anyway. Unlucky (or poor planning??) that 'our guy' was taken right before we had the chance to take him.
All these things are easy in hindsight, sure, but let the record show i called it at the time. I just was unaware that we were targetting Emmett over my preference of Ludowycke,
Do you really think that Austin and co hadn’t considered that scenario and rejected it in favour of better options?
All list managers, ours included, are formulating their strategies and making decisions based on a hell of lot more information than the most well-informed supporter has access to.
Yes, it would have been good to have been able to draft another Harry McKay, but all that were available were more Harry Lemmeys … and we scored the best KPP by a considerable margin.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: madbluboy on December 03, 2025, 10:41:27 am
Austin has been our list manager now for 6 drafts.
Who are the top 5 players he has drafted?
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: northernblue on December 03, 2025, 10:48:46 am
Dean, Ison, Smith…
To be fair I think his first 4 drafts he was trading rather than drafting.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 03, 2025, 11:21:28 am
To be fair I think his first 4 drafts he was trading rather than drafting.
Despite the emphasis on trades and free agents, Austin still drafted some pretty handy players in his first four drafts; Motlop, Ollie Hollands, Cowan, Moir and Wilson.
At the same time, he brought in Williams, Saad, Boyd, Hewett, Lewis Young, Cerra, Acres, O'Keeffe and Matt Carroll and, apart from Oscar McDonald, not one delisted player among them :)
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: northernblue on December 03, 2025, 01:27:46 pm
To be fair I think his first 4 drafts he was trading rather than drafting.
Despite the emphasis on trades and free agents, Austin still drafted some pretty handy players in his first four drafts; Motlop, Ollie Hollands, Cowan, Moir and Wilson.
At the same time, he brought in Williams, Saad, Boyd, Hewett, Lewis Young, Cerra, Acres, O'Keeffe and Matt Carroll and, apart from Oscar McDonald, not one delisted player among them :)
See, there's a point to make here, but when you include Wilson in 'quality players' you devalue the rest of them.
You did similar with pumping up Binns' tyres not too long ago. Well he was 'so bad' that we paid him to not be here, hardly a ringing endoresement like you would have us all believe!
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 03, 2025, 06:35:33 pm
Despite the emphasis on trades and free agents, Austin still drafted some pretty handy players in his first four drafts; Motlop, Ollie Hollands, Cowan, Moir and Wilson.
At the same time, he brought in Williams, Saad, Boyd, Hewett, Lewis Young, Cerra, Acres, O'Keeffe and Matt Carroll and, apart from Oscar McDonald, not one delisted player among them :)
See, there's a point to make here, but when you include Wilson in 'quality players' you devalue the rest of them.
You did similar with pumping up Binns' tyres not too long ago. Well he was 'so bad' that we paid him to not be here, hardly a ringing endoresement like you would have us all believe!
Wilson won a place in the team in round 22 and improved with every game. He may not be best 23 just yet, but he's certainly got a future.
You must be mistaking me for someone else, Pinot perhaps, because I've always had my doubts about Binns. I think I mentioned his VFL B&F recently but that's about it.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 03, 2025, 07:18:24 pm
Wilson's a developing player who gives his best. He's improving and played some good games in the VFL last year Kept saying he needed to be given a senior game Then when given that senior opportunity he improved again every game. Only just turned 20 I was really pleased we kept him on. Give him a bit more time.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: madbluboy on December 03, 2025, 08:44:52 pm
We wont know how good these guys are for a while yet and we wont know how much better or worse we could have drafted out of those.
After 6 drafts he hasn't drafted an A grader yet.
define an A grader.
Weitering? Walsh? Cripps? Curnow? McKay? Tdk?
Does the recruiter select an A grader or does the club turn them into one?
Thus far Austin has selected talent and its a coin toss between cowan, Hollands, motlop and HOF for his best. We havent seen jagga yet, so who knows. Ditto Dean.
For mine an A grader is not an objective measure and the selections can only be judged relative to what else was recruited.
I.e. would you swap walsh for butters?
Same draft.
Need to know what he should have taken with those picks instead of what was taken.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 03, 2025, 09:24:19 pm
44 names on the list, 35 belong to Austin, 8 to SOS (H, Gov, Kemp, Walsh, Weiters, Newmy, Pitto and Cottrell) and 1 to Hughes (Cripps). Safe to say it's largely Austins list now with 3 SOS draftees moving on this trade period gone by. The responsibility of our success or failure from a list perspective will lie squarely with Austin, no more excuses for him. Having said that, Ill put my hand up and say I've been critical of him but I think he and the team have done an outstanding job this trade period bringing in high end talent at the draft and setting us up to draft Cody Walker (potential no 1 pick) in 2026. Austin had no control over TDK and SOS leaving or Curnow being shown the door (make no mistake, he was shown the door). Replacing talent like TDK and Charlie takes time, it's not done in a draft or a trade period, it takes a few of each at least in my opinion. We shall see, but I am bullish.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: northernblue on December 04, 2025, 01:20:18 am
We wont know how good these guys are for a while yet and we wont know how much better or worse we could have drafted out of those.
After 6 drafts he hasn't drafted an A grader yet.
You’re being disingenuous. I pointed out that his first 4 he was trading picks for players, not drafting. He’s really only drafted last year and this, and none have played yet.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 04, 2025, 06:14:40 am
Thus far Austin has selected talent and its a coin toss between cowan, Hollands, motlop and HOF for his best. We havent seen jagga yet, so who knows. Ditto Dean.
From that list only Cowan has made the best 16 from peoples votes on this very site thus far. Hardly shooting the lights out
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 04, 2025, 06:39:47 am
Thus far Austin has selected talent and its a coin toss between cowan, Hollands, motlop and HOF for his best. We havent seen jagga yet, so who knows. Ditto Dean.
From that list only Cowan has made the best 16 from peoples votes on this very site thus far. Hardly shooting the lights out
It a good thing we're not picking the team then :D
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 04, 2025, 06:49:58 am
It a good thing we're not picking the team then :D
Maybe, but it does show public opinion disagrees with the above statement. That holds more weight than simply me calling it BS.
I think you give a bit too much weight to our polls :D A dozen votes on our website with a wide range of biased views is hardly 'public opinion' ;)
These polls are nothing but a reflection of the past and anticipation for the future. Those that think we haven't recruited well will give a different emphasis to new players than those who see how these players may fit into, and complement, the side.
Our starting team this year will probably look a bit different to the side 'we' end up with in the polls In fact after a couple of practice games we'd probably come up with a completely differen side.
They have little validity other than how a very small group of people view the team at a point in time.
The question was asked before ...what makes an A grader and the answer is usually time. Very few players hit the ground as A graders and it usually takes two or three years to establish themselves.
Cowan O. Hollands Hof Smith Dean
Ask us again in four years time about these players and we would probably get a different answer...and that doesn't account for players that at the present may be 'cocooned' waiting to emerge.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 04, 2025, 08:09:12 am
Maybe, but it does show public opinion disagrees with the above statement. That holds more weight than simply me calling it BS.
I think you give a bit too much weight to our polls :D A dozen votes on our website with a wide range of biased views is hardly 'public opinion' ;)
These polls are nothing but a reflection of the past and anticipation for the future. Those that think we haven't recruited well will give a different emphasis to new players than those who see how these players may fit into, and complement, the side.
Our starting team this year will probably look a bit different to the side 'we' end up with in the polls In fact after a couple of practice games we'd probably come up with a completely differen side.
They have little validity other than how a very small group of people view the team at a point in time.
The question was asked before ...what makes an A grader and the answer is usually time. Very few players hit the ground as A graders and it usually takes two or three years to establish themselves.
Cowan O. Hollands Hof Smith Dean
Ask us again in four years time about these players and we would probably get a different answer...and that doesn't account for players that at the present may be 'cocooned' waiting to emerge.
Its not definitive, sure, but its pretty clear that this site is not leaving out a-graders though is it. It shows that those players are borderline best 23....and thats the point. Anyway can draft borderline best 23 players. We lost 2 silvagni a-graders We still have a few silvagni a-graders. How many austin a-graders do we have despite him recruiting 75% of the list.
Every year its a 'work in progress, you can't judge yet' well when can we judge? Performances wise we've fallen off a cliff. Player wise we've lost more talented players than we've brought in. Of the players we've brought in, the best hopes we have are 18+19yo kids so by the time they develop, our existing a-graders will be on the way out....and currently, their replacements are not on the list.
As a collective site, i liken our list management thought processes to the frog in the pan that slowly boils. Its happening too slowly for anyone to realise, but its bad news.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: madbluboy on December 04, 2025, 08:11:25 am
SOS was sacked after 5 drafts and was accused of sabotaging the club but Austin has had 6 drafts and needs time.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 04, 2025, 08:31:25 am
I think you give a bit too much weight to our polls :D A dozen votes on our website with a wide range of biased views is hardly 'public opinion' ;)
These polls are nothing but a reflection of the past and anticipation for the future. Those that think we haven't recruited well will give a different emphasis to new players than those who see how these players may fit into, and complement, the side.
Our starting team this year will probably look a bit different to the side 'we' end up with in the polls In fact after a couple of practice games we'd probably come up with a completely differen side.
They have little validity other than how a very small group of people view the team at a point in time.
The question was asked before ...what makes an A grader and the answer is usually time. Very few players hit the ground as A graders and it usually takes two or three years to establish themselves.
Cowan O. Hollands Hof Smith Dean
Ask us again in four years time about these players and we would probably get a different answer...and that doesn't account for players that at the present may be 'cocooned' waiting to emerge.
Its not definitive, sure, but its pretty clear that this site is not leaving out a-graders though is it. It shows that those players are borderline best 23....and thats the point. Anyway can draft borderline best 23 players. We lost 2 silvagni a-graders We still have a few silvagni a-graders. How many austin a-graders do we have despite him recruiting 75% of the list.
Every year its a 'work in progress, you can't judge yet' well when can we judge? Performances wise we've fallen off a cliff. Player wise we've lost more talented players than we've brought in. Of the players we've brought in, the best hopes we have are 18+19yo kids so by the time they develop, our existing a-graders will be on the way out....and currently, their replacements are not on the list.
As a collective site, i liken our list management thought processes to the frog in the pan that slowly boils. Its happening too slowly for anyone to realise, but its bad news.
Gee, you talk in extremes. "Fallen off a cliff" Have you been paying attention to what's happened with injury an off field shenanigans the last two years. ::)
Don't give too much weight to a dozen people voting. We could hold the election in my lounge room.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 04, 2025, 10:40:59 am
Don't give too much weight to a dozen people voting. We could hold the election in my lounge room.
That could be an interesting gathering Lods. Do you have a date in mind? :)
Building a list isn't just drafting A-graders, however you define them, but it's a factor. More important is using trades, free agency, rookie selections and contract management to maintain a sustainable list with depth and the ability to execute the gameplan.
Without wishing to re-ignite an old debate, SOS wasn't sacked because of his list management, it was club politics. Furthermore, he had signalled his intention to move on. In that context, how many players had SOS added to our list who were at A-grade level at the time of his departure? I would say one; Jacob Weitering (Charlie, Harry and Sam Walsh's break out years were still to come).
How many A-graders has Austin added to our list to date? Again, I would say one; George Hewett. There are plenty of B-graders to go with George and a couple of potential A-graders, if they live up to the hype.
As an aside, Brad Lloyd reckons that we have three A-graders - Cripps, Weitering and Walsh - and four B-graders - McKay, Cerra, Hewett and Saad.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 04, 2025, 02:32:11 pm
Its not definitive, sure, but its pretty clear that this site is not leaving out a-graders though is it. It shows that those players are borderline best 23....and thats the point. Anyway can draft borderline best 23 players. We lost 2 silvagni a-graders We still have a few silvagni a-graders. How many austin a-graders do we have despite him recruiting 75% of the list.
Every year its a 'work in progress, you can't judge yet' well when can we judge? Performances wise we've fallen off a cliff. Player wise we've lost more talented players than we've brought in. Of the players we've brought in, the best hopes we have are 18+19yo kids so by the time they develop, our existing a-graders will be on the way out....and currently, their replacements are not on the list.
As a collective site, i liken our list management thought processes to the frog in the pan that slowly boils. Its happening too slowly for anyone to realise, but its bad news.
Gee, you talk in extremes. "Fallen off a cliff" Have you been paying attention to what's happened with injury an off field shenanigans the last two years. ::)
Don't give too much weight to a dozen people voting. We could hold the election in my lounge room.
https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=6889.msg418178#msg418178 CHECK THE DATE
Personally, i'd give TDK the week off. Just like i would've given Kennedy the week off.
At this time of year, with our injury list as small as it is, THIS is when you rest players and get them right. No point running players into the ground and not giving their body a chance to recover right before you start playing the most important games of the year - finals.
I am especially worried about TDK and keeping him fit because he appears to be a bit of an 'orchid' - needs perfect conditions to thrive. That is, his athleticism is his strong point. His weakness is his body and consistency. We can't really carry a half-fit TDK in the same way we can carry a half fit Pittonet. Pitto doesn't need to run, jump, dodge. He is a push and shove guy who wants contact and wants to bruise you. If he is hurt, that doesn't really change the way he plays. He is by no means bullet proof and cops his injuries as well. But, if both rucks did an ankle, or copped a whack on the knee....or a corky....who would be more effected by that?
Its not an easy decision, TDKs best is very good. His worst is terrible. Whereabouts on that rollercoaster he is on any given week you can only hope to understand. Pitto probably won't reach the highs of TDK, but he probably won't sink to the lows either. More 'even' performances week to week. More consistent.
Which one you pick may change depending on how risk averse you are.
This is one post i found, there will be many more, potentially even earlier. (When i post the amount i do its hard to find the posts you want via searches :-[ )
At the time, we were 2nd and no injuries worries. I harped on about resting players when we could (like Geelong have been a master at) but no, we played them until they broke down, to the point we barely had enough players to field a team.
Since then, we dropped from 2nd, to scraping into the finals in 8th before being blown away 10 goals to nothing to start the match. Following year, we didn't learn from our mistakes, we doubled down.....and fell again, ultimately to 11th, but at one stage 16th, and never above 10th.
I expect a similar fall this year. So yes, off a cliff. If you think i'm being extreme, but you're not being extreme enough.
We had a prelim side with not a care in the world at the halfway point of the year which we turned into a rebuild over the next 18 months. How is that for extreme?
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 04, 2025, 03:46:30 pm
Gee, you talk in extremes. "Fallen off a cliff" Have you been paying attention to what's happened with injury an off field shenanigans the last two years. ::)
Don't give too much weight to a dozen people voting. We could hold the election in my lounge room.
https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=6889.msg418178#msg418178 CHECK THE DATE
Personally, i'd give TDK the week off. Just like i would've given Kennedy the week off.
At this time of year, with our injury list as small as it is, THIS is when you rest players and get them right. No point running players into the ground and not giving their body a chance to recover right before you start playing the most important games of the year - finals.
I am especially worried about TDK and keeping him fit because he appears to be a bit of an 'orchid' - needs perfect conditions to thrive. That is, his athleticism is his strong point. His weakness is his body and consistency. We can't really carry a half-fit TDK in the same way we can carry a half fit Pittonet. Pitto doesn't need to run, jump, dodge. He is a push and shove guy who wants contact and wants to bruise you. If he is hurt, that doesn't really change the way he plays. He is by no means bullet proof and cops his injuries as well. But, if both rucks did an ankle, or copped a whack on the knee....or a corky....who would be more effected by that?
Its not an easy decision, TDKs best is very good. His worst is terrible. Whereabouts on that rollercoaster he is on any given week you can only hope to understand. Pitto probably won't reach the highs of TDK, but he probably won't sink to the lows either. More 'even' performances week to week. More consistent.
Which one you pick may change depending on how risk averse you are.
This is one post i found, there will be many more, potentially even earlier. (When i post the amount i do its hard to find the posts you want via searches :-[ )
At the time, we were 2nd and no injuries worries. I harped on about resting players when we could (like Geelong have been a master at) but no, we played them until they broke down, to the point we barely had enough players to field a team.
Since then, we dropped from 2nd, to scraping into the finals in 8th before being blown away 10 goals to nothing to start the match. Following year, we didn't learn from our mistakes, we doubled down.....and fell again, ultimately to 11th, but at one stage 16th, and never above 10th.
I expect a similar fall this year. So yes, off a cliff. If you think i'm being extreme, but you're not being extreme enough.
We had a prelim side with not a care in the world at the halfway point of the year which we turned into a rebuild over the next 18 months. How is that for extreme?
You've completely changed the subject. We were talking about recruiting. Yep we've had a drop off in performance but the reasons for that are down to a number of aspects other than recruiting, including injury and division. The list in 2024 and 2025 was still solid but it was unable to cope with what occurred. I think we may have a bit more depth and durability going forward but it's a wait and see.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 04, 2025, 05:00:45 pm
You've completely changed the subject. We were talking about recruiting. Yep we've had a drop off in performance but the reasons for that are down to a number of aspects other than recruiting, including injury and division. The list in 2024 and 2025 was still solid but it was unable to cope with what occurred. I think we may have a bit more depth and durability going forward but it's a wait and see.
I said we've falled off a cliff, you said it was extreme, i provided evidence its far from extreme and we can't simply blame it on injuries as we had every chance to get ahead of that before we did.
But, you say injuries are why we fell off a cliff, then if thats all it is, why are we rebuilding?
You see how things are not adding up?
The players we have recruited are worse than whats going out. The reasons we are recruited said type of players is because we needed a rebuild to change things up.....which i disagree with. We didn't need a rebuild, we needed to draft long term KP depth and top up the list in areas we were deficient. Had we have done this, we would still be looking at the cliff from the top, not looking back up at it, all battered and bruised.
2 years from now, maybe we've had time to scale that cliff again, i'm far from certain thats the case, but time will tell. In the meantime our current a-graders are entering the twilight of their careers and we have little to replace them with currently.
Yet somehow, the guys in charge are doing a terrific job.
DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 04, 2025, 05:21:05 pm
You've completely changed the subject. We were talking about recruiting. Yep we've had a drop off in performance but the reasons for that are down to a number of aspects other than recruiting, including injury and division. The list in 2024 and 2025 was still solid but it was unable to cope with what occurred. I think we may have a bit more depth and durability going forward but it's a wait and see.
I said we've falled off a cliff, you said it was extreme, i provided evidence its far from extreme and we can't simply blame it on injuries as we had every chance to get ahead of that before we did.
But, you say injuries are why we fell off a cliff, then if thats all it is, why are we rebuilding?
You see how things are not adding up?
The players we have recruited are worse than whats going out. The reasons we are recruited said type of players is because we needed a rebuild to change things up.....which i disagree with. We didn't need a rebuild, we needed to draft long term KP depth and top up the list in areas we were deficient. Had we have done this, we would still be looking at the cliff from the top, not looking back up at it, all battered and bruised.
2 years from now, maybe we've had time to scale that cliff again, i'm far from certain thats the case, but time will tell. In the meantime our current a-graders are entering the twilight of their careers and we have little to replace them with currently.
Yet somehow, the guys in charge are doing a terrific job.
DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.
We didn't fall off a cliff. But I'm not going to argue if you want to feel thats what happened. We've been challenged the last two years and it proved a bit much In 2023 we finished 5th but with a bit of luck and desperation we made it through to a prelim In other words we played out of our skin but in the end we weren't good enough. I suspect what happened then was there were areas identified that we needed to address and subsequent drafting has concentrated on those areas....speed, disposal, depth.
Were not going the full rebuild. We're just strengthening the foundations before we add the roof.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 04, 2025, 05:37:13 pm
I said we've falled off a cliff, you said it was extreme, i provided evidence its far from extreme and we can't simply blame it on injuries as we had every chance to get ahead of that before we did.
But, you say injuries are why we fell off a cliff, then if thats all it is, why are we rebuilding?
You see how things are not adding up?
The players we have recruited are worse than whats going out. The reasons we are recruited said type of players is because we needed a rebuild to change things up.....which i disagree with. We didn't need a rebuild, we needed to draft long term KP depth and top up the list in areas we were deficient. Had we have done this, we would still be looking at the cliff from the top, not looking back up at it, all battered and bruised.
2 years from now, maybe we've had time to scale that cliff again, i'm far from certain thats the case, but time will tell. In the meantime our current a-graders are entering the twilight of their careers and we have little to replace them with currently.
Yet somehow, the guys in charge are doing a terrific job.
DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.
We didn't fall off a cliff. But I'm not going to argue if you want to feel thats what happened. We've been challenged the last two years and it proved a bit much In 2023 we finished 5th but with a bit of luck and desperation we made it through to a prelim In other words we played out of our skin but in the end we weren't good enough. I suspect what happened then was there were areas identified that we needed to address and subsequent drafting has concentrated on those areas....speed, disposal, depth.
Were not going the full rebuild. We're just strengthening the foundations before we add the roof.
There is a reason the spine is called a spine in football. Its important piece that everything is built around.
We are rebuilding, but not with foundations. We are doing it with fluffy pillows, wallpaper and a change of curtains. The main structure is largely being ignored, and its only a matter of time until the cracks show through and the real issues can no longer be ignored.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 04, 2025, 06:49:42 pm
We didn't fall off a cliff. But I'm not going to argue if you want to feel thats what happened. We've been challenged the last two years and it proved a bit much In 2023 we finished 5th but with a bit of luck and desperation we made it through to a prelim In other words we played out of our skin but in the end we weren't good enough. I suspect what happened then was there were areas identified that we needed to address and subsequent drafting has concentrated on those areas....speed, disposal, depth.
Were not going the full rebuild. We're just strengthening the foundations before we add the roof.
There is a reason the spine is called a spine in football. Its important piece that everything is built around.
We are rebuilding, but not with foundations. We are doing it with fluffy pillows, wallpaper and a change of curtains. The main structure is largely being ignored, and its only a matter of time until the cracks show through and the real issues can no longer be ignored.
Why does it have to be built that way? Who made that rule? It may be 'traditional' list building but who is to say its the only way
SOS built a spine but failed with the other bones, the heart, muscle
I'm sure Dean, O'Farrell, O'Keefe, Smith, Ison and others don't see themselves as fluffy pillows
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 04, 2025, 06:54:48 pm
There is a reason the spine is called a spine in football. Its important piece that everything is built around.
We are rebuilding, but not with foundations. We are doing it with fluffy pillows, wallpaper and a change of curtains. The main structure is largely being ignored, and its only a matter of time until the cracks show through and the real issues can no longer be ignored.
Why does it have to be built that way? Who made that rule? It may be 'traditional' list building but who is to say its the only way
SOS built a spine but failed with the other bones the heart, muscle
I'm sure Dean, O'Farrell, O'Keefe, Smith, Ison and others don't see themselves as fluffy pillows
I'm sure all the players we've ever delisted didnt seem themselves as fluffy pillows either.
It doesn't have to be built that way, but its tried and true. SOS didn't fail, he was cut off before he got to finish. Austin has had longer and done less. Tell me what players SOS inherited that could net him 3x 1st round picks via trade. Hell, a former pick 1 only got us 2.
Austin has been piggybacking off the back of the value SOS added and continues to do so. SOS didn't have anything of value when he took over.
I'm sorry but whichever way i dissect the list, i can't find any confidence in the current regime, nothing close to what you guys seem to have in it.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 04, 2025, 07:08:50 pm
Look this is pretty pointless. You and I aren't going to agree. So I'll finish up here...
I'm pretty sure SOS had signalled his intention to leave anyway and they brought his departure forward.
He may not have had anything of value, but he still cut the guts out of the list and then put it back together with some average players from other clubs (many of whom he drafted) and some poor draft choices with early picks.
He had a great first draft. Picked up Walsh, an easy choice for pick 1 The one he does get a bit of credit for is TDK.
But enough about Silvagni He's no friend of Carlton.
Bottom line here is you sound like you're going to have a pretty miserable summer fretting about all the ways we can drop further down the ladder. I on the other hand will be looking forward to the first practice games to see the "New Carlton"
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 04, 2025, 07:45:39 pm
I'm not fretting about anything. I've accepted next year will be worse than this year. I think all you others who expect to improve are the ones that will have miserable times. Reality check coming to many.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 04, 2025, 07:59:26 pm
Look this is pretty pointless. You and I aren't going to agree. So I'll finish up here...
I'm pretty sure SOS had signalled his intention to leave anyway and they brought his departure forward.
He may not have had anything of value, but he still cut the guts out of the list and then put it back together with some average players from other clubs (many of whom he drafted) and some poor draft choices with early picks.
He had a great first draft. Picked up Walsh, an easy choice for pick 1 The one he does get a bit of credit for is TDK.
But enough about Silvagni He's no friend of Carlton.
Bottom line here is you sound like you're going to have a pretty miserable summer fretting about all the ways we can drop further down the ladder. I on the other hand will be looking forward to the first practice games to see the "New Carlton"
x 2
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 04, 2025, 08:14:01 pm
Looks like the Ass Stains should have done their homework on players they drafted. Oh wait...
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Professer E on December 04, 2025, 08:44:55 pm
Some people on this site regard KPP as less important than they have been, but a lot of them got targeted and sought after by clubs this year....Jamarra, JSOS, Charlie, the lad from Swines to Collingwood. Large % of the trades if you ask me. If they are so "unimportant", why did club go after them?
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 05, 2025, 02:55:26 am
Some people on this site regard KPP as less important than they have been, but a lot of them got targeted and sought after by clubs this year....Jamarra, JSOS, Charlie, the lad from Swines to Collingwood. Large % of the trades if you ask me. If they are so "unimportant", why did club go after them?
I don't think that anyone is arguing the KPPs are less important. The point is that there's less risk involved in bringing in established KPPs through trades and free agency than through the draft. Eight of the 50 players drafted are KPPs and eight of the 36 players traded or taken as free agents are KPPs.
The same applies for ruckmen.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 05, 2025, 06:41:19 am
That's the way I see things And it's probably 'it' in a nutshell and the centre of the whole debate. It goes to the heart of the thread title-"More than one way to skin a cat."
Of course KPP's are important. They are the 'backbone' of any side.
But as is generally agreed...they take time. We drafted a spine in one draft, talented kids, that still took several years to hit their peak. The problem was that when they did we were lacking in the supportive talent.
There are two ways to do it. Draft the talls, and develop them, in the hope that when they reach their peak there is enough supportive talent around. Or lay a foundation of talent and then bring them in via trade and free agency, ready to go, or well on the way to reaching their full potential.
The first one may be the more traditional way. I suspect the second option is the direction the club has taken.
It's basically what were arguing about and I don't think anyone's going to change their mind before we see what happens on-field in the next year or two.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 05, 2025, 06:55:37 am
The club may well be taking the second option Lods, problem is the trading of those players is all going one way.... and it's not in.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 05, 2025, 01:44:09 pm
That's the way I see things And it's probably 'it' in a nutshell and the centre of the whole debate. It goes to the heart of the thread title-"More than one way to skin a cat."
Of course KPP's are important. They are the 'backbone' of any side.
But as is generally agreed...they take time. We drafted a spine in one draft, talented kids, that still took several years to hit their peak. The problem was that when they did we were lacking in the supportive talent.
There are two ways to do it. Draft the talls, and develop them, in the hope that when they reach their peak there is enough supportive talent around. Or lay a foundation of talent and then bring them in via trade and free agency, ready to go, or well on the way to reaching their full potential.
The first one may be the more traditional way. I suspect the second option is the direction the club has taken.
It's basically what were arguing about and I don't think anyone's going to change their mind before we see what happens on-field in the next year or two.
And there are other options.
There's the low risk, high reward approach of bringing in untried or discarded talls as rookies through the Rookie Draft, SSP, MSD or as Cat B rookies. Austin's had many goes at that with Luke Parks, Oscar McDonald, Dom Akuei, Sam Durdin, Hudson O'Keeffe and Matt Duffy and may finally succeed with Skull. And that leads me to the final option; discovering/developing a KPP by changing their role.
Liam Jones is the obvious example but older folk may remember Gordon Collis who couldn't get a kick at CHF but won a Brownlow when switched to CHB. Then there's Jack Silvagni, who went from a "third tall" forward to everyone's favourite CHB in just 12 games and won a monster contract as a result.
Skull's role has changed from ruck/forward to KPF/ruck and the signs are good so far. With some notable exceptions like Paul Salmon, Cowboy Neale and Darren Jolly, turning ruckmen into key forwards isn't all that successful but Skull is a reliable kick for goal and that's a good start.
The tall that I would have liked us to have gone after in the draft is Louis Emmett but the Doggies got in first. Emmett is a ruck forward but he's said to be earmarked for a KPD role at AFL level.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 05, 2025, 02:38:21 pm
I prefer specialist KP talls and not trying to cheat with hybrids who play ruck and forward, or ruckman you try and turn into KP players, we have been there with Hampson, Kreuzer etc and it rarely works. Id rather specialist forwards like Jeremy Cameron, Georgiadies, Hogan, etc and same down back with specialist Key backmen. You get handy dual purpose types like Luke Jackson who can play ruck and contribute while resting down forward but even with Jackson who is a class player its necessary to have specialist key forwards in Voss and Amiss to provide consistency because Jackson down forward wont work every time and its more of a tactical move every now and then to play him there.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 05, 2025, 02:46:38 pm
Any way you skin it, had we stuck with the same old, we thus far would have jsos and tdk on an interrupted pre season.
Charlie is rumoured to be cooked to the point he'll never be the same again, but that will remain a rumour until otherwise.
Can I request that number 30 stay away from key talls from now on? The last 2 talented ones we had ended up injury prone and leaving the club.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 06, 2025, 11:02:22 am
My contention is that we prioritised bringing in young talent in order to pass the proverbial baton from the older guard that might have won us something, in an effort to build a younger layer to the team and prevent us from bottoming out. That group will come good about the time tassie joins (or not).
It puts our recruiting in a different perspective and thats all im aiming for.
RANKING FOR 2026... Average age: 24.9 (sixth oldest) Average games: 79.3 (fifth most experienced) Most games: Nick Haynes (234) Players with 100-plus games: 15 Players with less than 50 games: 22
Average age of list at Opening Round, 2026 Ranking at OR, 2025 1 Collingwood 25.6 Oldest 2 Melbourne 25.4 Equal fifth oldest =3 Brisbane 25.3 Second oldest =3 Geelong 25.3 Fourth oldest 5 Sydney 25 Equal fifth oldest 6 Carlton 24.9 Eighth oldest 7 Western Bulldogs 24.8 Third oldest 8 Adelaide 24.7 Seventh oldest 9 Port Adelaide 24.4 12th oldest =10 Fremantle 24.3 11th oldest =10 Greater Western Sydney 24.3 13th oldest =10 Hawthorn 24.3 10th oldest 13 St Kilda 24.2 Equal 14th oldest =14 Gold Coast 24.1 Ninth oldest =14 North Melbourne 24.1 18th oldest 16 Richmond 23.8 16th oldest 17 Essendon 23.6 Equal 14th oldest 18 West Coast 23.5 17th oldest
As i suspected, we have actually got older, relatively speaking, in this current off-season AND we've lost a-grade talent.
Why people are fawning over our list management team i still cannot comprehend.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 06, 2025, 12:13:24 pm
As i suspected, we have actually got older, relatively speaking, in this current off-season AND we've lost a-grade talent.
Why people are fawning over our list management team i still cannot comprehend.
There's some dodgy figures there!
According to an AFL article by Cal Twomey in June 2025, the average age per team in 2025 was:
Collingwood – 28.5 years Geelong – 26.5 Brisbane – 26.5 Carlton – 26.2 Sydney – 26.1 Western Bulldogs – 26 Melbourne – 25.9 GWS – 25.8 Hawthorn – 25.7 Adelaide – 25.6 Port Adelaide – 25.4 Gold Coast – 25.3 St Kilda – 25.2 North Melbourne – 25.1 Essendon – 24.9 West Coast – 24.8 Richmond – 24.7 Fremantle – 24.6
While the average age of the players who left us is one year older than the average age of players who have come in, I can't see how our average age could drop from 26.2 to 24.9 and from 4th oldest to 6th oldest. Collingwood's average age dropping from 28.5 to 25.6 is unbelievable given that most of their veterans are going around again.
It seems that there are several "average age" tables with differing values. Draftguru has our 2026 average age as 25.1 and ranked 6th in terms of age and experience.
And who exactly are the A-graders we've lost? It's been a while since Doc was an All-Australian.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 06, 2025, 12:44:45 pm
Don't shoot the messenger, the figures are on the AFL website.
It says when the figures where calculated.
June would've been prefer the MSD.
It may or may not include rookies or players on the LTI list.
Comparing like for like, from the same person on the same site. We got older, relatively speaking. Simples.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 06, 2025, 12:50:02 pm
As i suspected, we have actually got older, relatively speaking, in this current off-season AND we've lost a-grade talent.
Why people are fawning over our list management team i still cannot comprehend.
There's some dodgy figures there!
According to an AFL article by Cal Twomey in June 2025, the average age per team in 2025 was:
Talk about dodgy data indeed. From your own article, perhaps you should read it next time..... https://www.afl.com.au/news/1341020/young-fremantle-side-rising-collingwood-lead-the-way-the-oldest-and-youngest-teams-of-2025-revealed
Quote
AFL.com.au's data shows that the Dockers, who will be vying for a top four berth if they can beat North Melbourne this week, were ranked 18th for age and experience on average for the 23-man team they selected between rounds 1-12.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 06, 2025, 01:17:20 pm
If Scott Pendlebury retires Collingwoods average age will drop to around 19 :D
Average age is meaningless when you're talking the difference between average 24-26. A few oldies can skew the figures. Judge youth by the potential of your age 23 and under group. I reckon we stack up OK
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 06, 2025, 04:38:09 pm
My contention is that we prioritised bringing in young talent in order to pass the proverbial baton from the older guard that might have won us something, in an effort to build a younger layer to the team and prevent us from bottoming out. That group will come good about the time tassie joins (or not).
It puts our recruiting in a different perspective and thats all im aiming for.
RANKING FOR 2026... Average age: 24.9 (sixth oldest) Average games: 79.3 (fifth most experienced) Most games: Nick Haynes (234) Players with 100-plus games: 15 Players with less than 50 games: 22
Average age of list at Opening Round, 2026 Ranking at OR, 2025 1 Collingwood 25.6 Oldest 2 Melbourne 25.4 Equal fifth oldest =3 Brisbane 25.3 Second oldest =3 Geelong 25.3 Fourth oldest 5 Sydney 25 Equal fifth oldest 6 Carlton 24.9 Eighth oldest 7 Western Bulldogs 24.8 Third oldest 8 Adelaide 24.7 Seventh oldest 9 Port Adelaide 24.4 12th oldest =10 Fremantle 24.3 11th oldest =10 Greater Western Sydney 24.3 13th oldest =10 Hawthorn 24.3 10th oldest 13 St Kilda 24.2 Equal 14th oldest =14 Gold Coast 24.1 Ninth oldest =14 North Melbourne 24.1 18th oldest 16 Richmond 23.8 16th oldest 17 Essendon 23.6 Equal 14th oldest 18 West Coast 23.5 17th oldest
As i suspected, we have actually got older, relatively speaking, in this current off-season AND we've lost a-grade talent.
Why people are fawning over our list management team i still cannot comprehend.
Im neither here nor there on numbers but tell us how an average age of a team staying the same whilst most of them aged a year is a list getting older? By my reckoning thats a year older but an identical result which can only be achieved by getting younger.
Also you might want to revisit what the side at opening round was measured on. If it was names picked in the side vs players on the list then that might change that equation considerably too.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 06, 2025, 06:12:44 pm
As i suspected, we have actually got older, relatively speaking, in this current off-season AND we've lost a-grade talent.
Why people are fawning over our list management team i still cannot comprehend.
Im neither here nor there on numbers but tell us how an average age of a team staying the same whilst most of them aged a year is a list getting older? By my reckoning thats a year older but an identical result which can only be achieved by getting younger.
Also you might want to revisit what the side at opening round was measured on. If it was names picked in the side vs players on the list then that might change that equation considerably too.
List age. Not team age.
Key word you skipped over 'RELATIVE'.
Every single team gets younger every single year. What is important is how they compare against the other teams.
You are forced to bring in kids, which will always make you younger, more kids = younger still. Always cuts come from players older than the kids you bring in, so every year you can't help but get younger.
Contrary to (seemingly) popular opinion, if we are doing a rebuild, we are doing a poor job of it as we are not refreshing the list nearly enough. A point i raised with you with outgoings vs incomings previously, i think in this very thread.
At the end of the day, talent out > talent in. You can paint that as a rejuvination of younger talent, but the above numbers suggest thats a little white lie.
We can all cross our fingers that our talent comes on as expected (or better) but there is far from any guarantees of that. Until that can be more certain, i will remain highly sceptical of our recruiters and their ability to (re)build a list.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 06, 2025, 06:18:29 pm
So far we've lost a calf, a groin and a dicky knee. :D
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 06, 2025, 07:02:32 pm
Im neither here nor there on numbers but tell us how an average age of a team staying the same whilst most of them aged a year is a list getting older? By my reckoning thats a year older but an identical result which can only be achieved by getting younger.
Also you might want to revisit what the side at opening round was measured on. If it was names picked in the side vs players on the list then that might change that equation considerably too.
List age. Not team age.
Key word you skipped over 'RELATIVE'.
Every single team gets younger every single year. What is important is how they compare against the other teams.
You are forced to bring in kids, which will always make you younger, more kids = younger still. Always cuts come from players older than the kids you bring in, so every year you can't help but get younger.
Contrary to (seemingly) popular opinion, if we are doing a rebuild, we are doing a poor job of it as we are not refreshing the list nearly enough. A point i raised with you with outgoings vs incomings previously, i think in this very thread.
At the end of the day, talent out > talent in. You can paint that as a rejuvination of younger talent, but the above numbers suggest thats a little white lie.
We can all cross our fingers that our talent comes on as expected (or better) but there is far from any guarantees of that. Until that can be more certain, i will remain highly sceptical of our recruiters and their ability to (re)build a list.
Nope didnt miss it, but that term "relative" is a bit of a misnomer when you dont account for the spread.
Theres lies, damn lies, then statistics without context.
So if our average didnt change after a year, what does that mean?
Also if we are older relative to the rest of the comp, what does that mean?
Finally, when we add our next player (via train on or other) if its elijah hollands, who WAS included last year, we will get younger again no?
Additionally, given we have concentrated on fleshing out the list with younger rather than mature ages, instead of topping up a prelim side, what does this argument do to yours?
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 06, 2025, 07:06:41 pm
From kruddlers article:
The past three premiers have been ranked in the top six for both age and experience heading into the season they won the flag.
Collingwood, Melbourne, Brisbane, Geelong, Sydney and Carlton are top six in both categories heading into 2026.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 06, 2025, 07:10:39 pm
Furthermore let me point to this one:
Quote
Draft. Picture: AFL Photos Freo Average age: 24.3 (equal 10th oldest) Average games: 67.2 (13th most experienced) Most games: Jaeger O'Meara (200) Players with 100-plus games: 14 Players with less than 50 games: 19
We are .6 years older yes or no?
How alarming....
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 06, 2025, 07:45:40 pm
Every single team gets younger every single year. What is important is how they compare against the other teams.
You are forced to bring in kids, which will always make you younger, more kids = younger still. Always cuts come from players older than the kids you bring in, so every year you can't help but get younger.
Contrary to (seemingly) popular opinion, if we are doing a rebuild, we are doing a poor job of it as we are not refreshing the list nearly enough. A point i raised with you with outgoings vs incomings previously, i think in this very thread.
At the end of the day, talent out > talent in. You can paint that as a rejuvination of younger talent, but the above numbers suggest thats a little white lie.
We can all cross our fingers that our talent comes on as expected (or better) but there is far from any guarantees of that. Until that can be more certain, i will remain highly sceptical of our recruiters and their ability to (re)build a list.
Nope didnt miss it, but that term "relative" is a bit of a misnomer when you dont account for the spread.
Theres lies, damn lies, then statistics without context.
So if our average didnt change after a year, what does that mean?
Also if we are older relative to the rest of the comp, what does that mean?
Finally, when we add our next player (via train on or other) if its elijah hollands, who WAS included last year, we will get younger again no?
Additionally, given we have concentrated on fleshing out the list with younger rather than mature ages, instead of topping up a prelim side, what does this argument do to yours?
You realise i didn't write the article right?
You were the one who said we were doing what we were doing to make the list younger. Do you still stand by that? Have we actually achieved that in any meaningful way? Or are you going to be pedantic in the way that everyone gets younger year on year?? Like adding Elijah Hollands back will change our average list age from 24.9years of age to 24.87 years of age. Remarkable. Give the list management team a raise!!
For the record, incoming players.... 4 players were younger than 24.9. 4 players were older than 24.9.
Lucky we are fleshing out our list with younger talent.....right?
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 07, 2025, 12:06:09 pm
It's largely irrelevant whether a team's list is a month or two older or younger. However, statistics and common sense tell us that teams with mature, experienced players are more likely to be premiership contenders, particularly if they have a dash of youthful brilliance to add to the mix.
For the record, incoming players from this year's trade/free agency/draft period; 3 players are younger than 20 1 player is younger than 24 but over 20. 4 players are older than 24.
If you include our SSP and MSD additions: 3 players are younger than 20. 4 players are younger than 24 but over 20. 5 players are older than 24.
That seems to be a good blend of youth and experience to me.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 07, 2025, 03:10:40 pm
Nope didnt miss it, but that term "relative" is a bit of a misnomer when you dont account for the spread.
Theres lies, damn lies, then statistics without context.
So if our average didnt change after a year, what does that mean?
Also if we are older relative to the rest of the comp, what does that mean?
Finally, when we add our next player (via train on or other) if its elijah hollands, who WAS included last year, we will get younger again no?
Additionally, given we have concentrated on fleshing out the list with younger rather than mature ages, instead of topping up a prelim side, what does this argument do to yours?
You realise i didn't write the article right?
You were the one who said we were doing what we were doing to make the list younger. Do you still stand by that? Have we actually achieved that in any meaningful way? Or are you going to be pedantic in the way that everyone gets younger year on year?? Like adding Elijah Hollands back will change our average list age from 24.9years of age to 24.87 years of age. Remarkable. Give the list management team a raise!!
For the record, incoming players.... 4 players were younger than 24.9. 4 players were older than 24.9.
Lucky we are fleshing out our list with younger talent.....right?
Yep. We have maintained our average age in a year which means we got younger. Collingwood got younger too. They've drafted in young players and let go of old players. They're still at the pointy end and the spread between 6th and 10th is .6 years.
Now consider something what point are you trying to achieve?
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 07, 2025, 04:06:41 pm
Yep. We have maintained our average age in a year which means we got younger. Collingwood got younger too. They've drafted in young players and let go of old players. They're still at the pointy end and the spread between 6th and 10th is .6 years.
Now consider something what point are you trying to achieve?
Forgive me for not being happy with 'not' getting younger but getting rid of a-grade talent, wrecking a prelim side in the process.
What would i want to achieve? Anything but that. I've made it quite clear what i would do.
What i' trying to work out, is why the above strategy is fooling every man and his dog and we're giving kudos for it in the process. This little black duck ain't falling for it.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 07, 2025, 04:31:20 pm
For the record, every team got younger this off-season. Only the following teams got 'less younger' than us in this off-season. Melbourne, Fremantle and Kangaroos. All 3 got 0.6-0.7 years younger.
Every other team got 'more younger' than us (or the same) (1.1 year up to 3.1 years like Collingwood).
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: LP on December 07, 2025, 04:33:56 pm
The importance of "the average age" is vastly over-stated.
You could average 25, then retire a broken 30 for a prime 26, replace a dud 20 with a 75 game 24 and the average would still be 25. None of which considers quality at all.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 07, 2025, 04:37:05 pm
The importance of "the average age" is vastly over-stated.
You could average 25, then retire a broken 30 for a prime 26, replace a dud 20 with a 75 game 24 and the average would still be 25. None of which considers quality at all.
Yep....and you could retire and trade a-grade talent, get in some 2nd rate c-grader and b-graders and call it upgrading your list under the guise of getting younger.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 07, 2025, 05:35:36 pm
Yep. We have maintained our average age in a year which means we got younger. Collingwood got younger too. They've drafted in young players and let go of old players. They're still at the pointy end and the spread between 6th and 10th is .6 years.
Now consider something what point are you trying to achieve?
Forgive me for not being happy with 'not' getting younger but getting rid of a-grade talent, wrecking a prelim side in the process.
What would i want to achieve? Anything but that. I've made it quite clear what i would do.
What i' trying to work out, is why the above strategy is fooling every man and his dog and we're giving kudos for it in the process. This little black duck ain't falling for it.
but we did get younger. Had to have else our average age should or would have lifted.
Assuming this is how its calculated. You take the total of age of all players and divide it by the number of players on the list. So using your numbers we have had 10 to 12 leave. Out of 46 that means the other 34 to 36 players added a year. Then we added back the number of players we delisted and ended up at an identical average. So the net result is despite the majority aging, we as a list have had to have gotten younger to tread water here.
Thing is WHEN you do this is important too, because not all of our players have had their birthday post October 31st yet so maybe we are older and the birthdays havent happened yet.
For the record by the way if you take our average of 24.9, then multiply this by 46 (number of listed players) you end up with a total of about 1145. If you add 35 years to this total, and then repeat the division across 46, your total age ends up 25.66.
Thing is we have a vacancy currently to end up with 24.9. Ultimately, will white or hollands will add 21 or 23 years to the total and give you a lower average. So we will be younger even if we add hollands back.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 07, 2025, 06:46:23 pm
The importance of "the average age" is vastly over-stated.
You could average 25, then retire a broken 30 for a prime 26, replace a dud 20 with a 75 game 24 and the average would still be 25. None of which considers quality at all.
Yep....and you could retire and trade a-grade talent, get in some 2nd rate c-grader and b-graders and call it upgrading your list under the guise of getting younger.
That's changing the focus again....you've moved away from the age debate to the talent debate
Average age is pretty meaningless when you're talking in averages only a year or two different.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 07, 2025, 07:13:20 pm
Yep....and you could retire and trade a-grade talent, get in some 2nd rate c-grader and b-graders and call it upgrading your list under the guise of getting younger.
That's changing the focus again....you've moved away from the age debate to the talent debate
Average age is pretty meaningless when you're talking in averages only a year or two different.
No its going back to the original point. Our list got weaker.
The opposition to this justify this by saying we got younger as we were too old. I'm pointing out relative to the opposition, we got older. The players we recruited, half of them were older than our average age. That flies in the face of the arguement that we are rebuilding/rejuvinating and getting younger. THIS was the justification for destroying our prelim list and the reason we are nosediving.
I'm calling BS on the rejuvination of the list as a viable strategy given we've barely moved the age needle, and done so less than most who are not doing the same thing.
All this falls back to the same question which i can't get a straight answer on.
WHY does everyone have so much faith in the current list management team? The reasons i've had so far are contradictory at worst, and weak at best.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 07, 2025, 09:13:55 pm
Simple answer.
Firstly, age to me is irrelevant, other than we have a good group of 23 and under.
Most important factor is that Graham Wright, a man who has built premiership sides, and has more list management experience in his little finger than any of us have in our whole bodies, has (for the time being) backed the list management team, and appears comfortable with the recruiting direction the club is taking.
Now it's quite possible, though it would be a bit of a stretch, that Wright kept the List management team on board this year because it may have been a bit late to change them and really no time for a new recruiter to get their head around things. If that were the case we would no doubt see a change early in the New Year...in which case I may be a bit concerned.
Basically, if these guys with all their experience are happy, then I'm happy and optimistic. I see next year as holding the line and assessing the needs. I don't think we'll go backwards and expect a finish somewhere in the wild card group And then some big recruiting moves prior to the entry of Tasmania...cashed up with cap space and a sound group of players to build on.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 07, 2025, 09:17:32 pm
That's changing the focus again....you've moved away from the age debate to the talent debate
Average age is pretty meaningless when you're talking in averages only a year or two different.
No its going back to the original point. Our list got weaker.
The opposition to this justify this by saying we got younger as we were too old. I'm pointing out relative to the opposition, we got older. The players we recruited, half of them were older than our average age. That flies in the face of the arguement that we are rebuilding/rejuvinating and getting younger. THIS was the justification for destroying our prelim list and the reason we are nosediving.
I'm calling BS on the rejuvination of the list as a viable strategy given we've barely moved the age needle, and done so less than most who are not doing the same thing.
All this falls back to the same question which i can't get a straight answer on.
WHY does everyone have so much faith in the current list management team? The reasons i've had so far are contradictory at worst, and weak at best.
As you know I agree with you regarding the list management or lack of.. The argument from the opposing opinions is that the new players as a collective combined with what we have already will be better able to execute the new improved gamestyle which includes better delivery, more variety of forward options and better quicker ball movement. Sounds great in theory until you figure out that most of the work will still be done by the same players with the same deficiencies and that the players we recruited won't be the quality prime movers required to initiate the changes required.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 07, 2025, 09:30:46 pm
I have faith in the list management team because I don’t believe that an outdated, formulaic approach to building a list is the way to go.
And I’d still like to know who the A-graders are that we lost 🤔
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 07, 2025, 09:58:43 pm
No its going back to the original point. Our list got weaker.
The opposition to this justify this by saying we got younger as we were too old. I'm pointing out relative to the opposition, we got older. The players we recruited, half of them were older than our average age. That flies in the face of the arguement that we are rebuilding/rejuvinating and getting younger. THIS was the justification for destroying our prelim list and the reason we are nosediving.
I'm calling BS on the rejuvination of the list as a viable strategy given we've barely moved the age needle, and done so less than most who are not doing the same thing.
All this falls back to the same question which i can't get a straight answer on.
WHY does everyone have so much faith in the current list management team? The reasons i've had so far are contradictory at worst, and weak at best.
As you know I agree with you regarding the list management or lack of.. The argument from the opposing opinions is that the new players as a collective combined with what we have already will be better able to execute the new improved gamestyle which includes better delivery, more variety of forward options and better quicker ball movement. Sounds great in theory until you figure out that most of the work will still be done by the same players with the same deficiencies and that the players we recruited won't be the quality prime movers required to initiate the changes required.
But that’s just your rather jaundiced opinion EB.
The players we lost had minimal positive impact on our 2025 fortunes and the players we traded in are a hell of a lot better than you’re willing to admit. Then there’s a likely generational CHB, a very highly rated “tweener” forward, and a hard nut midfielder who nails his targets.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 07, 2025, 11:56:49 pm
I have faith in the list management team because I don’t believe that an outdated, formulaic approach to building a list is the way to go.
And I’d still like to know who the A-graders are that we lost 🤔
Outdated you say? Sydney have been one of the best performed teams since the vfl turned into the afl. They felt the need to get an a-grade talent through the door. At the same time, let go a few b and c graders in the process. What makes you think our list management team are smarter than Sydney's? Since most of the excitement is around the guys we got from them and they poached a guy we wanted to keep, how the hell can you congratulate our guys and chastise the swans using an 'outdated' list management approach? Seriously?? ... and before you answer go have a look at the trade thread and get peoples thoughts on the guys we ended up getting BEFORE the trade went through. Did anyone rate them compared to Charlie??
If i havn't made it obvious enough that Charlie is an a grade talent, Docherty is worth mentioning while we are at it. TDK has the ability to be a-grade, some may say he is already (in not one of them). It's clear the guys we got in have not had better careers than them though.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 08, 2025, 01:01:52 am
As you know I agree with you regarding the list management or lack of.. The argument from the opposing opinions is that the new players as a collective combined with what we have already will be better able to execute the new improved gamestyle which includes better delivery, more variety of forward options and better quicker ball movement. Sounds great in theory until you figure out that most of the work will still be done by the same players with the same deficiencies and that the players we recruited won't be the quality prime movers required to initiate the changes required.
But that’s just your rather jaundiced opinion EB.
The players we lost had minimal positive impact on our 2025 fortunes and the players we traded in are a hell of a lot better than you’re willing to admit. Then there’s a likely generational CHB, a very highly rated “tweener” forward, and a hard nut midfielder who nails his targets.
Dean is a kid who hasn't played a game, yes he can be a great defender in years to come but common sense says he will take time like Weitering took time and he won't fix our main problems which are ball delivery into the forward line and conversion. You are pinning a lot of hope on Hayward who averages a goal a game and eleven possessions. Best return is 41 goals in a season and that was with a red hot midfield ie Warner, Heeney, Gulden etc giving him the ball... Ainsworth goes at a goal a game and 15 possessions...handy but not game changing and Hardwick saw fit to let him go and clear some cap space. Chesser wouldn't get a game in any of the top teams and was chased by one other club ...Essendon...Again 11 possessions a game @40 Games ... Florent ...dropped by Cox and will play at half back according to Ash Hansen in the Josh Daicos role. Again handy but was a salary cap dump and isn't a dial mover. Quantity doesn't equal quality and with a coach under pressure trying to change his preferred game style to a more modern game plan it's all going to take time and an influx of A grade kids like Cody Walker, Dean and others to provide real class and we are looking at a proper rebuild to do that not another bandaid season which is what we have to look forward too in 2026. Keep sitting behind the lady with the big hat and wearing the Navy Blue Shades because it's going to get tougher before it gets better and no amount of PR propaganda from yourself or the club is going to change that unless there is a miracle planned for Ikon Park.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 08, 2025, 02:02:37 am
I have faith in the list management team because I don’t believe that an outdated, formulaic approach to building a list is the way to go.
And I’d still like to know who the A-graders are that we lost 🤔
Outdated you say? Sydney have been one of the best performed teams since the vfl turned into the afl. They felt the need to get an a-grade talent through the door. At the same time, let go a few b and c graders in the process. What makes you think our list management team are smarter than Sydney's? Since most of the excitement is around the guys we got from them and they poached a guy we wanted to keep, how the hell can you congratulate our guys and chastise the swans using an 'outdated' list management approach? Seriously?? ... and before you answer go have a look at the trade thread and get peoples thoughts on the guys we ended up getting BEFORE the trade went through. Did anyone rate them compared to Charlie??
If i havn't made it obvious enough that Charlie is an a grade talent, Docherty is worth mentioning while we are at it. TDK has the ability to be a-grade, some may say he is already (in not one of them). It's clear the guys we got in have not had better careers than them though.
I've said previously that we'll miss Docherty more than the other three but it's a long time since he was an A-grader. Charlie's best is almost A-grade and his inability to have an impact in big games is his weakness. He was a C-grader in 2025 and there are ongoing doubts about his knee. Tom has potential and may become an A-grader at the Saints, or he may continue to flash in an out of games. Jack has a crack but, apart from not being able to stay on the park, is just a good ordinary footballer who showed some promise as a KPD.
I've mentioned it before but Florent and Hayward have been in the system 12 months less than Curnow and Silvagni and have both played 184 games to Curnow's 149 and Silvagni's 128. Florent played 130 consecutive games that included every game in Sydney’s last two Grand Final seasons. In other words, he was a lock in Sydney's best 22 until the struggling Dean Cox took over as coach. Hayward kicked 29.10 last season and 41.16 in 2024. Both signed five year contracts with Sydney in 2024, sparking this response from then coach John Longmire: "We're absolutely thrilled [that Hayward has re-signed]. We were always confident but until you get the deal done, you're not 100 per cent certain. Not only as a player but importantly as a person. He's a high-quality person. From the moment he and Ollie were drafted, to see them come into the club as 18-year-olds and then see them both commit long term to the club is one of the real thrills as a coach."
Ainsworth was pick 4 in the 2016 National Draft and has played 158 high quality games. He has been a fixture Gold Coast's best 22 since 2022 and signed a four year contract extension in 2024.
Chesser is a bit of an unkown quantity after being taken at pick 14 in the 2021 draft and missing most of last season with injury. He played the last four games and showed that he hasn't lost his blistering pace.
Then there's Harry Dean, who is universally acknowledged as one of the best KPP prospects in years, and Jack Ison, who looks to be a dynamic general forward with elite foot skills. Time will tell of course for Harry and Jack, but Blind Freddy could see that our 2026 list is stronger and has greater depth.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 08, 2025, 07:18:14 am
I don't care what pick a player was taken (paddy dow says hi) I don't care how many games a player has played in a row....says nothing about output
I reiterate, if these players are so good why did sydney let them go for a washed up hack like charlie and throw in every first rounder they could in the process? Sydney's recruiters are no slouches.
Blind freddy can tell our 2026 list will be stronger in 2026??
Blind freddy will have an expose for being wrong. You will not.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Baggers on December 08, 2025, 08:41:47 am
That's changing the focus again....you've moved away from the age debate to the talent debate
Average age is pretty meaningless when you're talking in averages only a year or two different.
No its going back to the original point. Our list got weaker.
The opposition to this justify this by saying we got younger as we were too old. I'm pointing out relative to the opposition, we got older. The players we recruited, half of them were older than our average age. That flies in the face of the arguement that we are rebuilding/rejuvinating and getting younger. THIS was the justification for destroying our prelim list and the reason we are nosediving.
I'm calling BS on the rejuvination of the list as a viable strategy given we've barely moved the age needle, and done so less than most who are not doing the same thing.
All this falls back to the same question which i can't get a straight answer on.
WHY does everyone have so much faith in the current list management team? The reasons i've had so far are contradictory at worst, and weak at best.
Whoa there, K.
"Our list got weaker," you say. Well, losing a few good players will do that... however, that's only half the story as they have been replaced but you seem to assume that the newbies are nowhere near the quality of those we lost. Seems to me that's a premature assumption. 2026 needs to unfold for us to get a read on how this trade turns out for each side.
I would suggest that we 'nosedived' in 2025 for a number of reasons strong reasons which have been well documented (leadership/injuries/gameplan), the least of which would have had anything to do with the age of the list or any suggested list rejuvenation - whatever that was. I don't get your logic that because of list age and attempted 'rejuvenation' we'll continue to nosedive?
"WHY does everyone have so much faith in the current list management team?" You ask, then write that the stated reasons from others on here are contradictory or weak. Wow. For a start, not everyone has unbridled faith in our current list management... but most seem to, myself included. Why? Leadership, experience and track record and I refer to GW and CD. Excellent reasons for cautious optimism... plus, they're our leaders and deserve our support and every opportunity.
Let's say you've just taken up a new leadership role at a new organization and you've a track record of success in your recent past, but those around you tell you that you'll fail because your predecessors failed. Mmm. Pretty jaundiced logic, eh?
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 08, 2025, 09:38:56 am
It probably applies to a certain extent to both sides in this debate. But one of the features of it is the inflexibility of some thinking.
Convinced that they are right, folks are often unable to see or accept an alternate point of view. There is a tendency to speak in absolutes...e.g."If we lose player X, we're screwed" We're never 'screwed', we're just challenged and it's at that point others step up. You never completely lose the "whole player" because that ignores the qualities the replacement brings to the job. And challenge present opportunity. At that point you sometimes see abilities surface in a player that may have been repressed due to the secondary role they had played in the past.
We see players like Tom, Jack and Charlie depart and what some see isn't their average performances...it's always their best performances. Others see the lack of effort, recent form and injury history. Same with players coming in. Depending on your point of view regarding list management we look at and give more emphais to the positives or negatives.
Looking at in terms of 'one to one' replacement is a pretty pointless activity because players bring different strengths and weaknesses. As a result a superior skilled player with a less committed attitude and an injury history may be more than compensated by a less skilled player with consistency of effort and durability. What is most important is not the individuals but how they fit into and 'enhance' the team. "We haven't got a replacement for Charlie" I suspect we have it more than covered. McKay's role will change, and he'll become the key target, but he also now has a bit of goalkicking talent around him.
Look, an injury list similar to the last two years and a bit of off field disruption and it could all go pear shaped again. I don't think anyone doubts that. But it's not the inevitability that some people feel it will be. At this point of the year we have no idea of the make-up of the team for the first game. Arguments about age and talent out/talent in are all pretty irrelevant. The only thing that counts is how the 'new' team comes together.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 08, 2025, 09:53:32 am
That's changing the focus again....you've moved away from the age debate to the talent debate
Average age is pretty meaningless when you're talking in averages only a year or two different.
No its going back to the original point. Our list got weaker.
The opposition to this justify this by saying we got younger as we were too old. I'm pointing out relative to the opposition, we got older. The players we recruited, half of them were older than our average age. That flies in the face of the arguement that we are rebuilding/rejuvinating and getting younger. THIS was the justification for destroying our prelim list and the reason we are nosediving.
I'm calling BS on the rejuvination of the list as a viable strategy given we've barely moved the age needle, and done so less than most who are not doing the same thing.
All this falls back to the same question which i can't get a straight answer on.
WHY does everyone have so much faith in the current list management team? The reasons i've had so far are contradictory at worst, and weak at best.
People have faith in the current list management team, because of the car crash that has surrounded our footy club in this department outside of Silvagni. Austin is not a departure from his approach. He is more of the same, just with a different name. You dont like him because you dont agree with his strategy (or the clubs direction) but thats more of a philosophical question that can only be discussed in theory. The second we do something different, you lose the ability to prove or disprove something. Hence why you come across like screaming into the void, and most people on here going, well, you cannot actually assert that and be proven correct. All you can do is point to a failing and say I told you so. Even that failing though is potentially based on a pre conceived idea. Austin didnt strengthen our list for 2026. He didnt do it for 2025 either. That much is true, but the list composition that got us to a prelim in 2023 was as much by his machinations as it was by SOS. Do we get there without his moves to secure, Cerra, Hewett and Saad? Probably not but that flaky underbelly that we have all hated at our club has persisted during both recruiters regimes. SOS did a good job with us. It could have been better, and he will rightly admit that, but he played the hand he was dealt. Austin effectively did similar. We are glossing over something else here too. To me, the thing that stopped us more than anything else was dumb luck. A run of season ending injuries ive not seen in a footy club before since 2015.
Back to recruiting, you can prioritise younger and also bring in mature agers at the same time. To me, the focus was that best 23 around Sam Walsh's age, and that remains true, even with the 27 year olds we have brought in. We were attempting to shift our key performers from the pointy end of the list (Docherty, Cripps, Saad, Acres, McGovern, Williams) to a mid tier. This was also an effort to make us more attractive to stay at for a guy like TDK. In his mid 20's and being offerred big dollars to go. We are adding youthful talent, stick around.
Thing is, HOF was good. ACL. Jagga appears to have all the right stuff said about him. ACL. We have Dean joining the fray, and we also have Walker coming in, but then the AFL have pulled a fast one on us. Instead of getting the guys without the premium draft picks, ala Daicos and all the Brisbane Father sons like Fletcher and Ashcrofts x2 we have had to pony up to get them. So that means looking at futures rather than the now. It had to mean sacrificing selecting a key tall to net in additional draft picks next year. To me, that was as simple as they wont help us now, and we will need them moving forward to flesh out the following.
Just to post it again, because its become a bit lost:
From the youngsters who are a mix of Bonafide AFL players and not, here is the result (I chose 25 as a cut off, so 26 year olds miss out at the date of writing i.e. Cerra, Cotters, Fogarty, Boyd, Lewis Young, Ainsworth, Florent, Hayward who are all about 27 as they are not the future):
Lord (21), Wilson(20), Monahan(21), Jagga (20), Evans(24), Young(24)
To this group we might add Will White(21), or Elijah Hollands(23) depending on how that final list spot falls, or a complete other option.
This team is not the finished article but from where I can sit, we have focussed on bringing in the draft picks to flesh the above side out, we have dumped salary to also leave us room to secure the futures of this lot, and bring in other dial movers and still acquired some handy players for the top layer whilst giving us a strong hand for a more sustained addition of talent during the years when the draft is going to be heavily weighted to Tassie.
Rightly or wrongly, our club has made the decision to neglect the short term and gamble on a few players that are not dial movers but solid citizens (to be frank, using history as a guide, our rise was fleeting, and too much went wrong to sustain us up there and most of the truly big clubs never really feared us as Geelong has been the only side with bonafides we have consistently troubled over the last 5 years) in an effort to carry us forward. Thing is, this might be enough if it all goes well enough, which thus far it hasnt. I wouldnt be banking on it all going swimmingly either, as that just doesnt happen at Carlton, but you never say never. Irrespective, I see enough in what we are doing to prevent us bottoming out once Cripps goes, and potentially to get us back up the ladder fairly quickly and hopefully removing that flaky under belly in the process.
Maybe im too optimistic about it, but I can see what they are trying to do, and that is enough for me. @kruddler you seem to be most negative about what they are doing and I understand that too, as there is no time like the present and we need to be getting better now, but old Carlton used to walk that road. Old Carlton would top up with a couple of players and then put us in the mix. Thing is, old Carlton is dead, and any attempts we make to resuscitate it seem to end up causing premature bottoming out, and doesnt look to be a sustainable way of moving forward. I have a cousin who is similarly minded. He is in his late 40's and always likes to bag me out for not understanding the old Carlton way because im only in my early 40's, but I remember what it was like. Thing is, that was over half my lifetime ago, and I dont see the point in attempting to emulate old Carlton. The competition has 5 extra teams now, and attempting to be old Carlton has simply delivered our worst performing 20 years in the clubs history, with a few highlights. So am happy there is a plan, we are executing it, and it seems to have its heart in the right place. Will the results marry up? Im not sure, but I for one am happy to have a proffessional approach which will hopefully avoid years of pain. I can handle a couple of dissapointing years, but not another decade of "rebuilding".
Finally looking at Liverpool. They went out, and got the gun high priced recruits this off season. The team is not performing, their previous A graders are struggling because too much change, some of the acquisitions have been non complimentary and the end result? The worst start to a Premier League season in over a decade. Beware the big profile recruits. It hasnt worked for us much (Judd aside) and even then the price may have been a bit too high to have been worthwhile.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: shawny on December 08, 2025, 10:55:07 am
That's changing the focus again....you've moved away from the age debate to the talent debate
Average age is pretty meaningless when you're talking in averages only a year or two different.
No its going back to the original point. Our list got weaker.
The opposition to this justify this by saying we got younger as we were too old. I'm pointing out relative to the opposition, we got older. The players we recruited, half of them were older than our average age. That flies in the face of the arguement that we are rebuilding/rejuvinating and getting younger. THIS was the justification for destroying our prelim list and the reason we are nosediving.
I'm calling BS on the rejuvination of the list as a viable strategy given we've barely moved the age needle, and done so less than most who are not doing the same thing.
All this falls back to the same question which i can't get a straight answer on.
WHY does everyone have so much faith in the current list management team? The reasons i've had so far are contradictory at worst, and weak at best.
i can’t believe how much your position has changed especially in the last 6 months
You were always one of the very much glass half full over the last decade and now what seems in a very short time have flipped.
do you agree?
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 08, 2025, 11:05:49 am
It's easy to underestimate the importance of our NGA in building our list. Yes, we have two highly-rated draft picks in Harry Dean and Jack Ison who are yet to play a game , but they're not unknown quantities.
Dean, in particular, has been at Princes Park for years, spent much of his rehab from a broken shoulder there, has had Nic Newman working with him on his video reviews and has been following the club dietician's eating plan for a couple of years, He knows most of the players well and has taken part in training drills and match sims for years. Ison hasn't had quite the same exposure, and he doesn't have a club legend father. He is still known around the club, knows the players and the training drills and has been mentored by Sam Walsh. The fact that neither Dean nor Ison are newbies walking into Princes Park for the first time gives them an advantage over Talor Byrne, and many other youngsters who were taken in this draft. The club also knew exactly what it was getting when if committed to both lads, and that's another advantage.
They still have to put in the work and hope for good fortune but they're ahead of the field.
Cody Walker is following a similar path to Dean and should have a seamless transition to senior footy - provided the AFL doesn't screw us with its changes to father-son rules.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 08, 2025, 03:06:13 pm
No its going back to the original point. Our list got weaker.
The opposition to this justify this by saying we got younger as we were too old. I'm pointing out relative to the opposition, we got older. The players we recruited, half of them were older than our average age. That flies in the face of the arguement that we are rebuilding/rejuvinating and getting younger. THIS was the justification for destroying our prelim list and the reason we are nosediving.
I'm calling BS on the rejuvination of the list as a viable strategy given we've barely moved the age needle, and done so less than most who are not doing the same thing.
All this falls back to the same question which i can't get a straight answer on.
WHY does everyone have so much faith in the current list management team? The reasons i've had so far are contradictory at worst, and weak at best.
i can’t believe how much your position has changed especially in the last 6 months
You were always one of the very much glass half full over the last decade and now what seems in a very short time have flipped.
do you agree?
Yes and no.
I've been pretty consistent on my messaging over the years. Draft kpps before you need them. I've given the recruiters the benefit of the don't (against my better judgement) for a lot of that time. Every year i hear, we didn't have the picks, we didn't have talent available etc. Well this year beyond a shadow of a doubt we did.... and we still didn't do anything about it.... including attempting to cover the loss of Charlie.
As frustrating as that is, people are now congratulating them and saying our list had improved on top of that? I feel like I'm living in the twilight zone or something and everyone else is brainwashed by the club (most, not everyone)
I feel like Al Gore trying to earn everyone about climate change but nobody is listening and they won't listen until everyone else stays talking about it too. In the meantime I'm just a negative crackpot.
So yes, I've been much more vocal about it because of run out of patience with our team and have no faith in what they are doing. No, i hasn't changed my thinking process though.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 08, 2025, 03:41:43 pm
People have faith in the current list management team, because of the car crash that has surrounded our footy club in this department outside of Silvagni. Austin is not a departure from his approach. He is more of the same, just with a different name. You dont like him because you dont agree with his strategy (or the clubs direction) but thats more of a philosophical question that can only be discussed in theory. The second we do something different, you lose the ability to prove or disprove something. Hence why you come across like screaming into the void, and most people on here going, well, you cannot actually assert that and be proven correct. All you can do is point to a failing and say I told you so. Even that failing though is potentially based on a pre conceived idea. Austin didnt strengthen our list for 2026. He didnt do it for 2025 either. That much is true, but the list composition that got us to a prelim in 2023 was as much by his machinations as it was by SOS. Do we get there without his moves to secure, Cerra, Hewett and Saad? Probably not but that flaky underbelly that we have all hated at our club has persisted during both recruiters regimes. SOS did a good job with us. It could have been better, and he will rightly admit that, but he played the hand he was dealt. Austin effectively did similar. We are glossing over something else here too. To me, the thing that stopped us more than anything else was dumb luck. A run of season ending injuries ive not seen in a footy club before since 2015.
...
Thing is, HOF was good. ACL. Jagga appears to have all the right stuff said about him. ACL. We have Dean joining the fray, and we also have Walker coming in, but then the AFL have pulled a fast one on us. Instead of getting the guys without the premium draft picks, ala Daicos and all the Brisbane Father sons like Fletcher and Ashcrofts x2 we have had to pony up to get them. So that means looking at futures rather than the now. It had to mean sacrificing selecting a key tall to net in additional draft picks next year. To me, that was as simple as they wont help us now, and we will need them moving forward to flesh out the following.
....
Rightly or wrongly, our club has made the decision to neglect the short term and gamble on a few players that are not dial movers but solid citizens (to be frank, using history as a guide, our rise was fleeting, and too much went wrong to sustain us up there and most of the truly big clubs never really feared us as Geelong has been the only side with bonafides we have consistently troubled over the last 5 years) in an effort to carry us forward. Thing is, this might be enough if it all goes well enough, which thus far it hasnt. I wouldnt be banking on it all going swimmingly either, as that just doesnt happen at Carlton, but you never say never. Irrespective, I see enough in what we are doing to prevent us bottoming out once Cripps goes, and potentially to get us back up the ladder fairly quickly and hopefully removing that flaky under belly in the process.
Maybe im too optimistic about it, but I can see what they are trying to do, and that is enough for me. @kruddler you seem to be most negative about what they are doing and I understand that too, as there is no time like the present and we need to be getting better now, but old Carlton used to walk that road. Old Carlton would top up with a couple of players and then put us in the mix. Thing is, old Carlton is dead, and any attempts we make to resuscitate it seem to end up causing premature bottoming out, and doesnt look to be a sustainable way of moving forward. I have a cousin who is similarly minded. He is in his late 40's and always likes to bag me out for not understanding the old Carlton way because im only in my early 40's, but I remember what it was like. Thing is, that was over half my lifetime ago, and I dont see the point in attempting to emulate old Carlton. The competition has 5 extra teams now, and attempting to be old Carlton has simply delivered our worst performing 20 years in the clubs history, with a few highlights. So am happy there is a plan, we are executing it, and it seems to have its heart in the right place. Will the results marry up? Im not sure, but I for one am happy to have a proffessional approach which will hopefully avoid years of pain. I can handle a couple of dissapointing years, but not another decade of "rebuilding".
For the record, i'm only 45, so this is not about 'old carlton'.
I like to think i'm very modern in my thinking. I am always looking at ways to improve our team, our club and the entire AFL competition but get shouted down by traditionalists who say thats not how things are done.
I find it amusing that my 'go to the draft for KPPs' is now 'outdated'. The alternative being poach them from somewhere else later. To me THAT is 'old carlton' and a poor way to ensure success. Carlton doesn't have the same aura (or brown paper bags) to facilitate such moves like they did in the past. Its a strategy that relies on other teams coming to the party.....and i don't want to rely on other teams doing our work. I'd much rather take that out of their hands. Otherwise its another year of 'but there was nothing available, can't blame the recruiters for that'. Well you can, because thats the path they took and they should've planned that better!
Anyway, i've highlighted a few bits from your above post. Since i'm seemingly in the minority and arguing with many people, it seems not everyone i'm arguing against is on the same page. The first part is something that you concede and agree with me on. However, others in a similar position to you cannot come to the same conclusion. That worries me as thats pretty clear to me and makes me think i'm arguing with overly emotive people who cannot see reason. Everyones entitled to their opinion, but i can't see any evidence to back that up, just navy glasses in action IMO.
The second highlighted part is something i disagree with. I pointed out before it happened that we did NOT need to overlook KPP. We chose too. Big difference. I flagged moving up a couple spots on night 2 to make sure we got 'our guy' whover that may be (for me it was Ludowyck - for the club it was Emmett) and ensuring we could still get Ison. I don't know if the club tried, but ultimately they didn't. Whether that a failure, or simply choosing not too....same result.
Third part...our club has chosen to ignore the short term....which is fine....i suggested it was a distinct possibility that we would need to IF TDK left and Charlie left (and Jack while we are at it). Problem is, we are trying to be half-pregnant. Why didn't we try and sell off some more talent now. Cripps might want to go home. Harry might be better off elsewhere etc etc. The way we are tracking, they will most likely end up counting the days and rueing this time at the end of their careers when they 'could/should' have moved on.
Finally...ultimately i think you are being too optimistic. I'm sure plenty of people saying i'm being too negative.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 08, 2025, 05:31:13 pm
You don't build a list by selling off talent, particularly when that talent is invested in the club and provides a role model and leadership on and off the field. Those qualities are why I believe that we'll miss Doc more than the other three.
That said, footy clubs and their players are resilient and are used to change. Our players have mentioned the challenge and excitement of new teammates and new coaches. They don't sook about a teammate going to another club or a favourite coach moving on. They just get on with the job.
List managers aren't focused on our best 23 for next season. They've got lots of balls in the air and are planning several seasons ahead both in terms of potential new players and those who may want to move on or have passed their use by date. Think back to SOS's "sustainable list".
I'm interested to know what Thry means by "old Carlton". To me, "old Carlton" went when SOS and his crew moved into a list management hub, adopted the Boston Red Sox's list management database and began using an analytics program for player evaluation. Austin has moved further forward with a dedicated list management strategy guru and data analysts to crunch the numbers. No wonder some supporters struggle to keep up.
We only have one survivor from the "old Carlton" days now, not that there weren't a handful that had decent careers.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 08, 2025, 05:39:29 pm
You don't build a list by selling off talent, particularly when that talent is invested in the club and provides a role model and leadership on and off the field.
Thought you said Charlie was invested in the club. He said he was staying. Coach said he was staying. But.....he's wearing red and white now.
Players being invested (or not) can change with the wind. Value has a pretty steady decline.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 08, 2025, 08:26:22 pm
You don't build a list by selling off talent, particularly when that talent is invested in the club and provides a role model and leadership on and off the field.
Thought you said Charlie was invested in the club. He said he was staying. Coach said he was staying. But.....he's wearing red and white now.
Players being invested (or not) can change with the wind. Value has a pretty steady decline.
I don’t believe that I said that Charlie was invested in the club. Charlie is invested in Charlie … and that’s fine.
Florent and Hayward had just signed four year contracts and were highly valued by the coach. Nek minnit there’s a new coach and they’re gorn.
So yes, things change for some folk.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 08, 2025, 09:34:12 pm
i can’t believe how much your position has changed especially in the last 6 months
You were always one of the very much glass half full over the last decade and now what seems in a very short time have flipped.
do you agree?
Yes and no.
I've been pretty consistent on my messaging over the years. Draft kpps before you need them. I've given the recruiters the benefit of the don't (against my better judgement) for a lot of that time. Every year i hear, we didn't have the picks, we didn't have talent available etc. Well this year beyond a shadow of a doubt we did.... and we still didn't do anything about it.... including attempting to cover the loss of Charlie.
As frustrating as that is, people are now congratulating them and saying our list had improved on top of that? I feel like I'm living in the twilight zone or something and everyone else is brainwashed by the club (most, not everyone)
I feel like Al Gore trying to earn everyone about climate change but nobody is listening and they won't listen until everyone else stays talking about it too. In the meantime I'm just a negative crackpot.
So yes, I've been much more vocal about it because of run out of patience with our team and have no faith in what they are doing. No, i hasn't changed my thinking process though.
That probably is a fair illustration of why you're experiencing a bit of angst and frustration. You're committed to the "we're going to suck in 2026" idea.
You've given them the 'benefit of the doubt' You feel like you're living in the "twilight zone" You feel like Al Gore, and no one is listening to your message. You've run out of patience. I suspect it's your own mindset that has you baffled, you think you know better. Better than recruiters with a wealth of knowledge, observation and data as well as face to face discussions with these guys. There's a reason why we would have taken Emmett at 28 yet passed on Ludowyke when we could have taken him at that pick.
Have you ever considered the possibility.... you may be wrong. ;) And that the dire straits you think were in aren't really that 'dire' at all. , Yes, we had a preliminary side but when it came to the crunch they weren't good enough. There were deficiencies in the side that were exposed, and in subsequent seasons, with injuries and other issues, the lack of depth really hurt. Over the last two seasons the drafting has revolved around addressing things like pace, and disposal...as well as adding that depth. But we haven't been completely negligent in the young tall department with O'Keefe, O'Farrell and Dean being added. The loss of some key players is an issue, but the form and injury concerns mean that it may not be as significant as it may seem to some. I've considered the possibility that if things go a bit pear shaped in the injury, team connection and commitment (and luck) department again we could stuggle, but I'm more confident that a good run with those things will see us finish in a better ladder position than this year.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 08, 2025, 10:15:17 pm
@Lods....could be wrong...but what ive been saying for years has proven correct thus far. Draft kpps before you need them so you don't get caught red handed... like we have been.
Replace a guy who plays every game of the year and fulfills multiple roles for you with someone other than a draftee.
Not all of my jumping up and down is about what happens from here. Its about what has happened to get us to here and I've said it at the time, so it's not with the benefit of hindsight.
I don't expect you to see what i see through my eyes and with my thoughts. What you see on here is only a snippet.
I'm not the only one who thinks we will drop this year. I might be the loudest voice, but in but the only one.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 08, 2025, 10:42:07 pm
Three teams that will rise and three that will fall in 2026 from the crew at ZeroHangar.. https://www.zerohanger.com/naming-three-afl-teams-that-will-rise-and-three-that-will-fall-in-2026-171605/6/
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 08, 2025, 11:29:42 pm
@Lods....could be wrong...but what ive been saying for years has proven correct thus far. Draft kpps before you need them so you don't get caught red handed... like we have been.
Replace a guy who plays every game of the year and fulfills multiple roles for you with someone other than a draftee.
Not all of my jumping up and down is about what happens from here. Its about what has happened to get us to here and I've said it at the time, so it's not with the benefit of hindsight.
I don't expect you to see what i see through my eyes and with my thoughts. What you see on here is only a snippet.
I'm not the only one who thinks we will drop this year. I might be the loudest voice, but in but the only one.
Don't you feel a change in focus the last two years? I think there is a vast difference to our recruiting, and the players we're bringing in in recent times Anything prior to 2023 is ancient history...we need to put those days behind us and they shouldn't even be a consideration, because you can't change the past. Kennedy had a good year at the Bulldogs but would he have played every game with us if Smith and Walsh had played all year, would Hewett have played so well given they would probably have shared duties...and on the other side of the coin would Cooper Lord have been given as much game time had he stayed...even Evans would probably have missed out on his opportunities if Kennedy played forward. Kennedy's loss was well covered...If we're hanging our hat on his ruck abilities it's a very small hatstand.
Now just on our weaknesses...it certainly wasn't a lack of talls down back. Our defence held up pretty well. In fact it was only 2-3 points per game worse than the premiers. The only two tall forwards who gave us any trouble were King and Georgiades in the first Port game. He was well held in the second.
The problems centred mostly around inefficiency in the forward line. Not only entry into the forward line but the inability to keep it there, and disposal efficiency once inside. It was terrible...and Curnow's inability to offer much of a contest once the ball hit the deck was a contributing factor. Surely that is better this year...and with some of the youngsters like O'Keefe and Moir with a years more experience, it could enhance that...and that's even before we consider the new boys.
It's not a Utopia, but it's not a Disaster either. For every negative there is more than likely a positive, and how it all plays out depends on the usual variables like luck, form and injury.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 09, 2025, 12:05:39 am
You don't build a list by selling off talent, particularly when that talent is invested in the club and provides a role model and leadership on and off the field. Those qualities are why I believe that we'll miss Doc more than the other three.
That said, footy clubs and their players are resilient and are used to change. Our players have mentioned the challenge and excitement of new teammates and new coaches. They don't sook about a teammate going to another club or a favourite coach moving on. They just get on with the job.
List managers aren't focused on our best 23 for next season. They've got lots of balls in the air and are planning several seasons ahead both in terms of potential new players and those who may want to move on or have passed their use by date. Think back to SOS's "sustainable list".
I'm interested to know what Thry means by "old Carlton". To me, "old Carlton" went when SOS and his crew moved into a list management hub, adopted the Boston Red Sox's list management database and began using an analytics program for player evaluation. Austin has moved further forward with a dedicated list management strategy guru and data analysts to crunch the numbers. No wonder some supporters struggle to keep up.
We only have one survivor from the "old Carlton" days now, not that there weren't a handful that had decent careers.
old Carlton wouldnt have drafted youth at all. Wouldn't have prioritised jagga, Dean and walker, would have traded out these picks for players, and attempted to climb the ladder that way. We've attempted both. The players weve gotten could be great, or could be average. Theres always a possibility that we infect them with the Carlton malaise.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 09, 2025, 12:23:57 am
People have faith in the current list management team, because of the car crash that has surrounded our footy club in this department outside of Silvagni. Austin is not a departure from his approach. He is more of the same, just with a different name. You dont like him because you dont agree with his strategy (or the clubs direction) but thats more of a philosophical question that can only be discussed in theory. The second we do something different, you lose the ability to prove or disprove something. Hence why you come across like screaming into the void, and most people on here going, well, you cannot actually assert that and be proven correct. All you can do is point to a failing and say I told you so. Even that failing though is potentially based on a pre conceived idea. Austin didnt strengthen our list for 2026. He didnt do it for 2025 either. That much is true, but the list composition that got us to a prelim in 2023 was as much by his machinations as it was by SOS. Do we get there without his moves to secure, Cerra, Hewett and Saad? Probably not but that flaky underbelly that we have all hated at our club has persisted during both recruiters regimes. SOS did a good job with us. It could have been better, and he will rightly admit that, but he played the hand he was dealt. Austin effectively did similar. We are glossing over something else here too. To me, the thing that stopped us more than anything else was dumb luck. A run of season ending injuries ive not seen in a footy club before since 2015.
...
Thing is, HOF was good. ACL. Jagga appears to have all the right stuff said about him. ACL. We have Dean joining the fray, and we also have Walker coming in, but then the AFL have pulled a fast one on us. Instead of getting the guys without the premium draft picks, ala Daicos and all the Brisbane Father sons like Fletcher and Ashcrofts x2 we have had to pony up to get them. So that means looking at futures rather than the now. It had to mean sacrificing selecting a key tall to net in additional draft picks next year. To me, that was as simple as they wont help us now, and we will need them moving forward to flesh out the following.
....
Rightly or wrongly, our club has made the decision to neglect the short term and gamble on a few players that are not dial movers but solid citizens (to be frank, using history as a guide, our rise was fleeting, and too much went wrong to sustain us up there and most of the truly big clubs never really feared us as Geelong has been the only side with bonafides we have consistently troubled over the last 5 years) in an effort to carry us forward. Thing is, this might be enough if it all goes well enough, which thus far it hasnt. I wouldnt be banking on it all going swimmingly either, as that just doesnt happen at Carlton, but you never say never. Irrespective, I see enough in what we are doing to prevent us bottoming out once Cripps goes, and potentially to get us back up the ladder fairly quickly and hopefully removing that flaky under belly in the process.
Maybe im too optimistic about it, but I can see what they are trying to do, and that is enough for me. @kruddler you seem to be most negative about what they are doing and I understand that too, as there is no time like the present and we need to be getting better now, but old Carlton used to walk that road. Old Carlton would top up with a couple of players and then put us in the mix. Thing is, old Carlton is dead, and any attempts we make to resuscitate it seem to end up causing premature bottoming out, and doesnt look to be a sustainable way of moving forward. I have a cousin who is similarly minded. He is in his late 40's and always likes to bag me out for not understanding the old Carlton way because im only in my early 40's, but I remember what it was like. Thing is, that was over half my lifetime ago, and I dont see the point in attempting to emulate old Carlton. The competition has 5 extra teams now, and attempting to be old Carlton has simply delivered our worst performing 20 years in the clubs history, with a few highlights. So am happy there is a plan, we are executing it, and it seems to have its heart in the right place. Will the results marry up? Im not sure, but I for one am happy to have a proffessional approach which will hopefully avoid years of pain. I can handle a couple of dissapointing years, but not another decade of "rebuilding".
For the record, i'm only 45, so this is not about 'old carlton'.
I like to think i'm very modern in my thinking. I am always looking at ways to improve our team, our club and the entire AFL competition but get shouted down by traditionalists who say thats not how things are done.
I find it amusing that my 'go to the draft for KPPs' is now 'outdated'. The alternative being poach them from somewhere else later. To me THAT is 'old carlton' and a poor way to ensure success. Carlton doesn't have the same aura (or brown paper bags) to facilitate such moves like they did in the past. Its a strategy that relies on other teams coming to the party.....and i don't want to rely on other teams doing our work. I'd much rather take that out of their hands. Otherwise its another year of 'but there was nothing available, can't blame the recruiters for that'. Well you can, because thats the path they took and they should've planned that better!
Anyway, i've highlighted a few bits from your above post. Since i'm seemingly in the minority and arguing with many people, it seems not everyone i'm arguing against is on the same page. The first part is something that you concede and agree with me on. However, others in a similar position to you cannot come to the same conclusion. That worries me as thats pretty clear to me and makes me think i'm arguing with overly emotive people who cannot see reason. Everyones entitled to their opinion, but i can't see any evidence to back that up, just navy glasses in action IMO.
The second highlighted part is something i disagree with. I pointed out before it happened that we did NOT need to overlook KPP. We chose too. Big difference. I flagged moving up a couple spots on night 2 to make sure we got 'our guy' whover that may be (for me it was Ludowyck - for the club it was Emmett) and ensuring we could still get Ison. I don't know if the club tried, but ultimately they didn't. Whether that a failure, or simply choosing not too....same result.
Third part...our club has chosen to ignore the short term....which is fine....i suggested it was a distinct possibility that we would need to IF TDK left and Charlie left (and Jack while we are at it). Problem is, we are trying to be half-pregnant. Why didn't we try and sell off some more talent now. Cripps might want to go home. Harry might be better off elsewhere etc etc. The way we are tracking, they will most likely end up counting the days and rueing this time at the end of their careers when they 'could/should' have moved on.
Finally...ultimately i think you are being too optimistic. I'm sure plenty of people saying i'm being too negative.
I like to consider myself a realist. Despite losing Charlie tdk and jsos, I think we wont miss their 2025 output. Some of our worst losses this season featured all 3. Our best win for the year had all of them (Geelong), but our best loss for the year only featured TDK (gold coast) where Frankie turned it on. Thats not to say we'll be better. I think we've brought in some players to make us better than that team that day. Thing is, we can improve just by having a better run with fitness. Anyway it's old ground, but kemp played 5 games for the year. Walsh missed significant footy, jagga hasn't fired a shot etc.
Sometimes, your arguments are scattergun. Thats fine but it reeks of agenda.
SOS said he cut too deep, here you are saying trade more. We've lost some solid players when you add docherty to it. Not sure shedding more helps short term, and we saw how likely it is to lure players during a rebuild and it probably just elongates a bottoming out. Been there done that. Lesson learned so we arent doing that again. Not worth it for this draft either. It was not a highly rated draft and lots of teams had academy picks which meant picking talent on offer positioning a relative nightmare. Where im a bit torn is when we could have drafted Curtin instead of Byrne but the decision has been made now and im choosing to wait till I see the kid before I criticise this much more.
Your also saying we should have aimed to be stronger for 2026. Weve probably hedged the bets surrounding walker and trading with tassie sufficiently to suggest that the futures you wouldnt have taken may be a better strategy or trading out additional players not netting us much better at the trade table either.
What we are doing is looking at an outcome. I think the only key tall we had an interest in was jed walter. Time may have been the enemy there, but he'll be gettable in a year if jamarra catches fire.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: tonyo on December 09, 2025, 07:54:23 am
List building can only generate success if you have the right development program in place.
Let's hope that the apparent re-directed focus towards recruiting talented youngsters is accompanied by (i) building a development program that allows them to reach their full footballing potential and (ii) increasing the profile of quality role-models among the existing playing group to show the way.
For the first time in many years at CFC, it feels like there is a good core of young guys who may make the grade. I cannot wait to see if the natural enthusiasm of talented youth will drive some of the existing playing group to new heights.
While the players who have left are undoubtedly talented, there was also a fair whiff of prima-donna about them. Give me hard-working, committed players over show-ponies any day.
I am an eternal optimist, but I think we may all be pleasantly surprised by what we see in 2026.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Baggers on December 09, 2025, 01:17:15 pm
List building can only generate success if you have the right development program in place.
Let's hope that the apparent re-directed focus towards recruiting talented youngsters is accompanied by (i) building a development program that allows them to reach their full footballing potential and (ii) increasing the profile of quality role-models among the existing playing group to show the way.
For the first time in many years at CFC, it feels like there is a good core of young guys who may make the grade. I cannot wait to see if the natural enthusiasm of talented youth will drive some of the existing playing group to new heights.
While the players who have left are undoubtedly talented, there was also a fair whiff of prima-donna about them. Give me hard-working, committed players over show-ponies any day.
I am an eternal optimist, but I think we may all be pleasantly surprised by what we see in 2026.
Noice. Well said, Big T. I'd also humbly add - leadership, which also seems to have moved the needle in the right direction.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: madbluboy on December 09, 2025, 01:32:33 pm
When we made the prelim in 2023 I thought it was the beginning of about 5 years of finals and being a contender. I didn't think we would be rebuilding 2 years later.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: PaulP on December 09, 2025, 01:54:34 pm
Whilst I acknowledge this thread is about the list improving or worsening, I am a little surprised about the lack of discussion throughout the forum of things beyond the list. Leaving aside the obvious ultimate goal of a premiership, what we all want to see is more wins and more convincing form. Improvement can come from a number of sources, which are not always on field and when they are, they're not easy to gauge or measure. It may be that Davies and Wright will provide leadership and direction that has been previously lacking, which will flow through the organization. It may be that the presence of Boak, Simpson, and new assistant coaches will give Voss the support and feedback he needs to go to the next level. There may have been disharmony and distraction throughout the playing group wrt Charlie, De Koning and Jack Silvagni - perhaps that is now in the past, and a more unified, less distracted group may play better football. We have finally have better luck with injuries etc.
Treating the players as atomistic, self contained entities, like parts of a machine, certainly has its place, but can only take you so far IMO.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 09, 2025, 02:52:43 pm
When we made the prelim in 2023 I thought it was the beginning of about 5 years of finals and being a contender. I didn't think we would be rebuilding 2 years later.
2 years is a long time in footy. 2 years earlier the Dees were premiers and we didnt look like making finals.
Instead we beat them against the odds (which tells a story of itself) to make a prelim from outside the top 4.
Whilst we all expected to go on with it, 12 months later when the wheels had fallen off, it became apparent that the game had gone away from us.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 09, 2025, 04:54:25 pm
When we made the prelim in 2023 I thought it was the beginning of about 5 years of finals and being a contender. I didn't think we would be rebuilding 2 years later.
...and i'm not sure you will find many who thought anything other than the same.
But here we are.
....and people are trying to say it 'needed' to happen. Obviously, i disagree.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: shawny on December 09, 2025, 07:22:39 pm
i can’t believe how much your position has changed especially in the last 6 months
You were always one of the very much glass half full over the last decade and now what seems in a very short time have flipped.
do you agree?
Yes and no.
I've been pretty consistent on my messaging over the years. Draft kpps before you need them. I've given the recruiters the benefit of the don't (against my better judgement) for a lot of that time. Every year i hear, we didn't have the picks, we didn't have talent available etc. Well this year beyond a shadow of a doubt we did.... and we still didn't do anything about it.... including attempting to cover the loss of Charlie.
As frustrating as that is, people are now congratulating them and saying our list had improved on top of that? I feel like I'm living in the twilight zone or something and everyone else is brainwashed by the club (most, not everyone)
I feel like Al Gore trying to earn everyone about climate change but nobody is listening and they won't listen until everyone else stays talking about it too. In the meantime I'm just a negative crackpot.
So yes, I've been much more vocal about it because of run out of patience with our team and have no faith in what they are doing. No, i hasn't changed my thinking process though.
I hear you but I dont think you are being 100% honest because as recent as early in the year when many including myself wrote another season off when dropping the first batch of games you were always the one who seemed to find a way to stay positive and usually came up with a scenario were not all was lost. You were equally positive during the game threads and rarely conceded until there was no other option.
And you were not a massive fan of TDK so this big turn in your view seems mainly on the back of losing 2 players Charlie and Jack and not replacing a like for a like with them?
I don't blame you for saying enough is enough as you know I lost faith many years ago and had major doubts the current list holes were much bigger then many on here want to believe.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: shawny on December 09, 2025, 07:43:14 pm
You don't build a list by selling off talent, particularly when that talent is invested in the club and provides a role model and leadership on and off the field. Those qualities are why I believe that we'll miss Doc more than the other three.
That said, footy clubs and their players are resilient and are used to change. Our players have mentioned the challenge and excitement of new teammates and new coaches. They don't sook about a teammate going to another club or a favourite coach moving on. They just get on with the job.
List managers aren't focused on our best 23 for next season. They've got lots of balls in the air and are planning several seasons ahead both in terms of potential new players and those who may want to move on or have passed their use by date. Think back to SOS's "sustainable list".
I'm interested to know what Thry means by "old Carlton". To me, "old Carlton" went when SOS and his crew moved into a list management hub, adopted the Boston Red Sox's list management database and began using an analytics program for player evaluation. Austin has moved further forward with a dedicated list management strategy guru and data analysts to crunch the numbers. No wonder some supporters struggle to keep up.
We only have one survivor from the "old Carlton" days now, not that there weren't a handful that had decent careers.
old Carlton wouldnt have drafted youth at all. Wouldn't have prioritised jagga, Dean and walker, would have traded out these picks for players, and attempted to climb the ladder that way. We've attempted both. The players weve gotten could be great, or could be average. Theres always a possibility that we infect them with the Carlton malaise.
Not sure which 'Old Carlton' you're referring to?
The one in the 70s - 90s was ruthless, sacked coaches the second we werent winning flags, were hated by everyone but also feared by the whole comp. That period netted a lazy 7 flags and yes they did some shady stuff and were solely focused on one goal and had no patience in the process - the end result was we won flags. In the modern era how clean are the cats with all deals they do behind the scenes with players contracts yet everyone praises them as a team that never rebuilds and is a ongoing powerhouse yet many want to dismiss our past ?
Not me.
Post 90s, the next 2 and half decades the 'new Carlton' are much nicer, we have no d1ckhead polices and a playing list filled with as EB1 says Von Trapps types, yet in this period added zero flags.
Give me the 'Old Carlton' anyday.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 09, 2025, 09:19:16 pm
I've been pretty consistent on my messaging over the years. Draft kpps before you need them. I've given the recruiters the benefit of the don't (against my better judgement) for a lot of that time. Every year i hear, we didn't have the picks, we didn't have talent available etc. Well this year beyond a shadow of a doubt we did.... and we still didn't do anything about it.... including attempting to cover the loss of Charlie.
As frustrating as that is, people are now congratulating them and saying our list had improved on top of that? I feel like I'm living in the twilight zone or something and everyone else is brainwashed by the club (most, not everyone)
I feel like Al Gore trying to earn everyone about climate change but nobody is listening and they won't listen until everyone else stays talking about it too. In the meantime I'm just a negative crackpot.
So yes, I've been much more vocal about it because of run out of patience with our team and have no faith in what they are doing. No, i hasn't changed my thinking process though.
I hear you but I dont think you are being 100% honest because as recent as early in the year when many including myself wrote another season off when dropping the first batch of games you were always the one who seemed to find a way to stay positive and usually came up with a scenario were not all was lost. You were equally positive during the game threads and rarely conceded until there was no other option.
And you were not a massive fan of TDK so this big turn in your view seems mainly on the back of losing 2 players Charlie and Jack and not replacing a like for a like with them?
I don't blame you for saying enough is enough as you know I lost faith many years ago and had major doubts the current list holes were much bigger then many on here want to believe.
Its good that you point out that i was usually very positive, i am or at least was. I find it amusing when people disagree with my opinions on the matter and say im just being negative, most are more negative than me.
re tdk... A lot of people misunderstand me when it comes to him. Let me clarify. 1. I don't think he is worth the crazy money we offered him and certainly not what the saints offer him. 2. I think his ruckwork (hitouts) is average at best, pittonet destroys him in that area. 3. I think his around the ground work is good but far from elite. I did some comparisons to Pittonet in all the key areas tackles, clearances, marks, disposals etc and they were very similar. 4. His consistency and his ability to stay out in the park is a weakness, see point 1.
That being said... - His athletic ability is elite. - His potential is elite. - If it's 'his day' people can't stop him. - I picked him as my starting ruck in all of the best 22s we did last year from preseason to the end.
So he is very much a loss. A lot of that loss is a loss on what he could be. Some of that is comparing to what we have instead, in not talking about Pittonet, but 2nd ruck... Reidy or HOK, who should also be a potential kpf we rely on.
So compare tdk to what we have in his place. Compare a dual Coleman medallist to what we have in his place. Compare inspirational AA and former (co) captain to what we have in his place Compare Jack(of all trades) to what we have in his place.
In each area, we are now lacking by comparison. That's 4 best 22 players we have downgraded in the offseason.
Sure some players we got in MAY be an upgrade on other positions, but these positions are less important by comparison. So yes our hff and fp may be better in 2026 (tbc) but nobody is saying our ff will be better. Will the ins cover for the outs? I say no. Time will tell.
What i can't understand is the blind faith in current recruiters and list management team. Each individual pick/player you can make a case for. But as a collective i think they are fixated on the wrong areas and have been for years. The sheer amount of small forwards we have recruited and continue to recruit bother me no end. The constant recruiting to fill a need, confirms their previous efforts have failed as it continues to be a need.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: shawny on December 09, 2025, 09:29:44 pm
I hear you but I dont think you are being 100% honest because as recent as early in the year when many including myself wrote another season off when dropping the first batch of games you were always the one who seemed to find a way to stay positive and usually came up with a scenario were not all was lost. You were equally positive during the game threads and rarely conceded until there was no other option.
And you were not a massive fan of TDK so this big turn in your view seems mainly on the back of losing 2 players Charlie and Jack and not replacing a like for a like with them?
I don't blame you for saying enough is enough as you know I lost faith many years ago and had major doubts the current list holes were much bigger then many on here want to believe.
Its good that you point out that i was usually very positive, i am or at least was. I find it amusing when people disagree with my opinions on the matter and say im just being negative, most are more negative than me.
re tdk... A lot of people misunderstand me when it comes to him. Let me clarify. 1. I don't think he is worth the crazy money we offered him and certainly not what the saints offer him. 2. I think his ruckwork (hitouts) is average at best, pittonet destroys him in that area. 3. I think his around the ground work is good but far from elite. I did some comparisons to Pittonet in all the key areas tackles, clearances, marks, disposals etc and they were very similar. 4. His consistency and his ability to stay out in the park is a weakness, see point 1.
That being said... - His athletic ability is elite. - His potential is elite. - If it's 'his day' people can't stop him. - I picked him as my starting ruck in all of the best 22s we did last year from preseason to the end.
So he is very much a loss. A lot of that loss is a loss on what he could be. Some of that is comparing to what we have instead, in not talking about Pittonet, but 2nd ruck... Reidy or HOK, who should also be a potential kpf we rely on.
So compare tdk to what we have in his place. Compare a dual Coleman medallist to what we have in his place. Compare inspirational AA and former (co) captain to what we have in his place Compare Jack(of all trades) to what we have in his place.
In each area, we are now lacking by comparison. That's 4 best 22 players we have downgraded in the offseason.
Sure some players we got in MAY be an upgrade on other positions, but these positions are less important by comparison. So yes our hff and fp may be better in 2026 (tbc) but nobody is saying our ff will be better. Will the ins cover for the outs? I say no. Time will tell.
What i can't understand is the blind faith in current recruiters and list management team. Each individual pick/player you can make a case for. But as a collective i think they are fixated on the wrong areas and have been for years. The sheer amount of small forwards we have recruited and continue to recruit bother me no end. The constant recruiting to fill a need, confirms their previous efforts have failed as it continues to be a need.
Fair enough.
The thing is when i see fans like yourself lose faith at the direction of the club it really hammers home we are miles off which is hard to bloody take.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 09, 2025, 09:44:13 pm
The thing is when i see fans like yourself lose faith at the direction of the club it really hammers home we are miles off which is hard to bloody take.
Realistically if we have a blessed run with injuries we can still play finals. With a bit of luck Kemp can kick 60 goals for the year. Harry can recapture his Coleman form and Jagga could win the rising star.
However, 2 of them are coming back from a year off which they may not recover from our could reinjure themselves and the 3rd continues to suffer from mental demons in one form or another, so we may get nothing from all 3 and finish bottom 4.
That's why we play the season though because anything can happen.
Personally, i play the odds and option 2 is more likely than option 1.... looking at anyone who doesn't barrack for Carlton will confirm that.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 09, 2025, 10:24:16 pm
I hear you but I dont think you are being 100% honest because as recent as early in the year when many including myself wrote another season off when dropping the first batch of games you were always the one who seemed to find a way to stay positive and usually came up with a scenario were not all was lost. You were equally positive during the game threads and rarely conceded until there was no other option.
And you were not a massive fan of TDK so this big turn in your view seems mainly on the back of losing 2 players Charlie and Jack and not replacing a like for a like with them?
I don't blame you for saying enough is enough as you know I lost faith many years ago and had major doubts the current list holes were much bigger then many on here want to believe.
Its good that you point out that i was usually very positive, i am or at least was. I find it amusing when people disagree with my opinions on the matter and say im just being negative, most are more negative than me.
re tdk... A lot of people misunderstand me when it comes to him. Let me clarify. 1. I don't think he is worth the crazy money we offered him and certainly not what the saints offer him. 2. I think his ruckwork (hitouts) is average at best, pittonet destroys him in that area. 3. I think his around the ground work is good but far from elite. I did some comparisons to Pittonet in all the key areas tackles, clearances, marks, disposals etc and they were very similar. 4. His consistency and his ability to stay out in the park is a weakness, see point 1.
That being said... - His athletic ability is elite. - His potential is elite. - If it's 'his day' people can't stop him. - I picked him as my starting ruck in all of the best 22s we did last year from preseason to the end.
So he is very much a loss. A lot of that loss is a loss on what he could be. Some of that is comparing to what we have instead, in not talking about Pittonet, but 2nd ruck... Reidy or HOK, who should also be a potential kpf we rely on.
So compare tdk to what we have in his place. Compare a dual Coleman medallist to what we have in his place. Compare inspirational AA and former (co) captain to what we have in his place Compare Jack(of all trades) to what we have in his place.
In each area, we are now lacking by comparison. That's 4 best 22 players we have downgraded in the offseason.
Sure some players we got in MAY be an upgrade on other positions, but these positions are less important by comparison. So yes our hff and fp may be better in 2026 (tbc) but nobody is saying our ff will be better. Will the ins cover for the outs? I say no. Time will tell.
What i can't understand is the blind faith in current recruiters and list management team. Each individual pick/player you can make a case for. But as a collective i think they are fixated on the wrong areas and have been for years. The sheer amount of small forwards we have recruited and continue to recruit bother me no end. The constant recruiting to fill a need, confirms their previous efforts have failed as it continues to be a need.
You're doing the 'one to one' thing again and you're talking the best of their ability Charlie 'was' a Coleman medallist, he may yet be one again, but 2025 Charlie was nowhere near it. Doc was cooked. And 'Jack the Saint' struggles to put more than 2/3s of a season together. TDK isn't even the best ruckman at St Kilda. ...and both the last two are going to miss big chunks of pre-season.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: shawny on December 09, 2025, 11:03:08 pm
What i find somewhat amusing is how so many of us fan opinions change dramatically once you form your own view as to how we are tracking as a club. All the 50/50s when your positive about our direction ‘are going to be great additions and upgrades’ and conversely when you’re not seeing it those same 50/50s are viewed as clear downgrades and negatives and the players we lost are based on their very best form as to what we lost.
And both sides can provide reasonable arguments why their view is more balanced then the other.
Its the same with politics.
Personally im ok with the changes as our hands were tied with all of the major ones but imo all things being equal more quality left then came in so im expecting 2026 to be a average year and a mid table finish. I think our next real chance is if the likes of Dean, campo bros, jagga and walker can all do what the ashcroft brothers did and explode on the scene all while the likes of cripps walsh weitering are all still in their peak.
Thats our hope imo to genuinely be a chance to snare a flag but we need 2-3 years before thats any chance of evenualating.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 09, 2025, 11:30:19 pm
What i find somewhat amusing is how so many of us fan opinions change dramatically once you form your own view as to how we are tracking as a club. All the 50/50s when your positive about our direction ‘are going to be great additions and upgrades’ and conversely when you’re not seeing it those same 50/50s are viewed as clear downgrades and negatives and the players we lost are based on their very best form as to what we lost.
And both sides can provide reasonable arguments why their view is more balanced then the other.
Its the same with politics.
Personally im ok with the changes as our hands were tied with all of the major ones but imo all things being equal more quality left then came in so im expecting 2026 to be a average year and a mid table finish. I think our next real chance is if the likes of Dean, campo bros, jagga and walker can all do what the ashcroft brothers did and explode on the scene all while the likes of cripps walsh weitering are all still in their peak.
Thats our hope imo to genuinely be a chance to snare a flag but we need 2-3 years before thats any chance of evenualating.
I think what you say is pretty right. We adopt a position then everything, strengths and weaknesses of players, gets magnified through the lens of that particular bias. I'm no means certain my optimism won't be shattered by a few injuries and a bit of bad luck...but gee we're overdue for a change in that aspect. And in fact that's the key to my thinking. If we can remain stable in terms of injury there is no reason why we should slip, even given the players we've lost. Because their contribution to 2025 wasn't their elite form but a fraction of it due to injuries and perhaps as we may come to understand some significant turmoil in some of their off field lives that impacted on their decisions.
Perhaps a good activity for us all would be to take the opposite view to how we currently feel about 2026 and challenge ourselves to defend it with vigour...it might move the dial just a little bit towards the centre.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 10, 2025, 04:49:26 am
Its good that you point out that i was usually very positive, i am or at least was. I find it amusing when people disagree with my opinions on the matter and say im just being negative, most are more negative than me.
re tdk... A lot of people misunderstand me when it comes to him. Let me clarify. 1. I don't think he is worth the crazy money we offered him and certainly not what the saints offer him. 2. I think his ruckwork (hitouts) is average at best, pittonet destroys him in that area. 3. I think his around the ground work is good but far from elite. I did some comparisons to Pittonet in all the key areas tackles, clearances, marks, disposals etc and they were very similar. 4. His consistency and his ability to stay out in the park is a weakness, see point 1.
That being said... - His athletic ability is elite. - His potential is elite. - If it's 'his day' people can't stop him. - I picked him as my starting ruck in all of the best 22s we did last year from preseason to the end.
So he is very much a loss. A lot of that loss is a loss on what he could be. Some of that is comparing to what we have instead, in not talking about Pittonet, but 2nd ruck... Reidy or HOK, who should also be a potential kpf we rely on.
So compare tdk to what we have in his place. Compare a dual Coleman medallist to what we have in his place. Compare inspirational AA and former (co) captain to what we have in his place Compare Jack(of all trades) to what we have in his place.
In each area, we are now lacking by comparison. That's 4 best 22 players we have downgraded in the offseason.
Sure some players we got in MAY be an upgrade on other positions, but these positions are less important by comparison. So yes our hff and fp may be better in 2026 (tbc) but nobody is saying our ff will be better. Will the ins cover for the outs? I say no. Time will tell.
What i can't understand is the blind faith in current recruiters and list management team. Each individual pick/player you can make a case for. But as a collective i think they are fixated on the wrong areas and have been for years. The sheer amount of small forwards we have recruited and continue to recruit bother me no end. The constant recruiting to fill a need, confirms their previous efforts have failed as it continues to be a need.
You're doing the 'one to one' thing again and you're talking the best of their ability Charlie 'was' a Coleman medallist, he may yet be one again, but 2025 Charlie was nowhere near it. Doc was cooked. And 'Jack the Saint' struggles to put more than 2/3s of a season together. TDK isn't even the best ruckman at St Kilda. ...and both the last two are going to miss big chunks of pre-season.
I'm not doing the one to one thing again, I'm doing out vs in. 4 positions we got worse, 2 positions we got better. I don't know why you guys fight against that so much. Overall team cohesion will magically get better based off of that to create a net win... that's an argument i disagree with.
Charlie before he did his knee may never have reached the heights he did. Charlie in 2025 was cooked. Didn't have a preseason. Played through injury. We refused to drop him and key him recover. A common theme with us.
I don't care if tdk is 2nd ruck at saints, he was first ruck with us. Arguments like that are said to diminish his importance rather than acknowledge his loss.
Playing devils advocate, if all these players are so bad, why did they get record contract/ trade offers? Perhaps it's more about you, than them?
If all the players we got in are so good, who did clubs push them out the door for a discounted price?
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 10, 2025, 07:34:04 am
You're doing the 'one to one' thing again and you're talking the best of their ability Charlie 'was' a Coleman medallist, he may yet be one again, but 2025 Charlie was nowhere near it. Doc was cooked. And 'Jack the Saint' struggles to put more than 2/3s of a season together. TDK isn't even the best ruckman at St Kilda. ...and both the last two are going to miss big chunks of pre-season.
I'm not doing the one to one thing again, I'm doing out vs in. 4 positions we got worse, 2 positions we got better. I don't know why you guys fight against that so much. Overall team cohesion will magically get better based off of that to create a net win... that's an argument i disagree with.
Charlie before he did his knee may never have reached the heights he did. Charlie in 2025 was cooked. Didn't have a preseason. Played through injury. We refused to drop him and key him recover. A common theme with us.
I don't care if tdk is 2nd ruck at saints, he was first ruck with us. Arguments like that are said to diminish his importance rather than acknowledge his loss.
Playing devils advocate, if all these players are so bad, why did they get record contract/ trade offers? Perhaps it's more about you, than them?
If all the players we got in are so good, who did clubs push them out the door for a discounted price?
What I'm arguing with is that you are looking at the 'best' of these players and arguing what we've lost means we will slip further down the ladder. But if Tom, Charlie and Jack, had played at that level (their best) for a whole season I'm pretty sure we would have finished better than eleventh. Even 50-60 goals from Charlie would have made a difference.
TDK is a loss, but it's a loss of a certain type of ruckman and we still have Pittonet who shaded him in ruck work, and O'Keefe (who is a probably a better ruck forward) who will more than likely improve....and Reidy who was behind a couple of pretty good rucks at Freo but played some very good football at the WAFL level, to consider...so net loss for TDK not so much.
So we have to look at their 2025 output when deciding whether or not their loss is as significant as you claim. We only have to replace their 2025 efforts to maintain our position or do better.
Now that's even before we consider the season losses of Newman, Kemp and Jagga. Add the loss of O'Farrell when he was just starting to show the goods. Then consider Harry and his issues...the distraction that was Elijah.
You can't see how we're going to be as good as 11th I can't see how we're going to be worse. So best we agree to disgree.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: madbluboy on December 10, 2025, 07:51:47 am
If you go back a little further to 2024 when we had our run and looked the best we have since 2000 it was on the back of Cripps, TDK and Curnow. The latter two got injured and we fell off a cliff.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 10, 2025, 08:10:05 am
I'm not doing the one to one thing again, I'm doing out vs in. 4 positions we got worse, 2 positions we got better. I don't know why you guys fight against that so much. Overall team cohesion will magically get better based off of that to create a net win... that's an argument i disagree with.
Charlie before he did his knee may never have reached the heights he did. Charlie in 2025 was cooked. Didn't have a preseason. Played through injury. We refused to drop him and key him recover. A common theme with us.
I don't care if tdk is 2nd ruck at saints, he was first ruck with us. Arguments like that are said to diminish his importance rather than acknowledge his loss.
Playing devils advocate, if all these players are so bad, why did they get record contract/ trade offers? Perhaps it's more about you, than them?
If all the players we got in are so good, who did clubs push them out the door for a discounted price?
What I'm arguing with is that you are looking at the 'best' of these players and arguing what we've lost means we will slip further down the ladder. But if Tom, Charlie and Jack, had played at that level (their best) for a whole season I'm pretty sure we would have finished better than eleventh. Even 50-60 goals from Charlie would have made a difference.
TDK is a loss, but it's a loss of a certain type of ruckman and we still have Pittonet who shaded him in ruck work, and O'Keefe (who is a probably a better ruck forward) who will more than likely improve....and Reidy who was behind a couple of pretty good rucks at Freo but played some very good football at the WAFL level, to consider...so net loss for TDK not so much.
So we have to look at their 2025 output when deciding whether or not their loss is as significant as you claim. We only have to replace their 2025 efforts to maintain our position or do better.
Now that's even before we consider the season losses of Newman, Kemp and Jagga. Add the loss of O'Farrell when he was just starting to show the goods. Then consider Harry and his issues...the distraction that was Elijah.
You can't see how we're going to be as good as 11th I can't see how we're going to be worse. So best we agree to disgree.
TDKs main value was that of an extra midfielder, those other players don't come close to what he offered around the ground and its essentially why he got offered the big money.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 10, 2025, 08:12:31 am
If you go back a little further to 2024 when we had our run and looked the best we have since 2000 it was on the back of Cripps, TDK and Curnow. The latter two got injured and we fell off a cliff.
Our injury list in 2024 consisted of much more than TDK and Curnow
Docherty didn't play until the end of the season and was clearly underdone. As well as an extensive list of players down through the year.. Players listed as doubtful or needing tests prior to the elimination final against Brisbane included-
McKay Cerra McGovern Willliams Martin Boyd Durdin Marchbank
We didn't fall off a cliff in 2024...we were pushed off by the injury gods.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 10, 2025, 08:26:09 am
What I'm arguing with is that you are looking at the 'best' of these players and arguing what we've lost means we will slip further down the ladder. But if Tom, Charlie and Jack, had played at that level (their best) for a whole season I'm pretty sure we would have finished better than eleventh. Even 50-60 goals from Charlie would have made a difference.
TDK is a loss, but it's a loss of a certain type of ruckman and we still have Pittonet who shaded him in ruck work, and O'Keefe (who is a probably a better ruck forward) who will more than likely improve....and Reidy who was behind a couple of pretty good rucks at Freo but played some very good football at the WAFL level, to consider...so net loss for TDK not so much.
So we have to look at their 2025 output when deciding whether or not their loss is as significant as you claim. We only have to replace their 2025 efforts to maintain our position or do better.
Now that's even before we consider the season losses of Newman, Kemp and Jagga. Add the loss of O'Farrell when he was just starting to show the goods. Then consider Harry and his issues...the distraction that was Elijah.
You can't see how we're going to be as good as 11th I can't see how we're going to be worse. So best we agree to disgree.
TDKs main value was that of an extra midfielder, those other players don't come close to what he offered around the ground and its essentially why he got offered the big money.
If you're after an extra midfielder I think we might have that covered. Averaged 3 marks a game, 6 goals for the year and some average disposal. TDK was very good at the follow up after the ruck contest and that was his strength. It gave us an advantage at the contest against slower to react ruckmen.
I have no idea why he was offered the ridiculous amount of money. SOS has a history of picking up players he recruited....but it was probably more about his 'potential'. In coming years he may be the elite ruckman of the competition but at the moment there are quite a few in front of him.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Baggers on December 10, 2025, 09:01:54 am
Whilst I acknowledge this thread is about the list improving or worsening, I am a little surprised about the lack of discussion throughout the forum of things beyond the list. Leaving aside the obvious ultimate goal of a premiership, what we all want to see is more wins and more convincing form. Improvement can come from a number of sources, which are not always on field and when they are, they're not easy to gauge or measure. It may be that Davies and Wright will provide leadership and direction that has been previously lacking, which will flow through the organization. It may be that the presence of Boak, Simpson, and new assistant coaches will give Voss the support and feedback he needs to go to the next level. There may have been disharmony and distraction throughout the playing group wrt Charlie, De Koning and Jack Silvagni - perhaps that is now in the past, and a more unified, less distracted group may play better football. We have finally have better luck with injuries etc.
Treating the players as atomistic, self contained entities, like parts of a machine, certainly has its place, but can only take you so far IMO.
I was disappointed and surprised your post didn't get more acknowledgment, Pauly. The Gestalt Therapist within me marvelled at your perspective.
Yes. So many parts of the CFC in support of the playing group, and the playing group itself, have changed in the off season... with significant leadership credentials added to the mix along with strengthened support for existing leadership.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: madbluboy on December 10, 2025, 09:24:24 am
We had Brian Cook and Graeme Wright last season.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 10, 2025, 09:30:16 am
If you go back a little further to 2024 when we had our run and looked the best we have since 2000 it was on the back of Cripps, TDK and Curnow. The latter two got injured and we fell off a cliff.
Our injury list in 2024 consisted of much more than TDK and Curnow
Docherty didn't play until the end of the season and was clearly underdone. As well as an extensive list of players down through the year.. Players listed as doubtful or needing tests prior to the elimination final against Brisbane included-
McKay Cerra McGovern Willliams Martin Boyd Durdin Marchbank
We didn't fall off a cliff in 2024...we were pushed off by the injury gods.
The Giants game where Charlie stepped in a hole in the warm up was a turning point. Yeah we had a lot of injuries but he was the best forward in the comp.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: madbluboy on December 10, 2025, 09:33:46 am
Our injury list in 2024 consisted of much more than TDK and Curnow
Docherty didn't play until the end of the season and was clearly underdone. As well as an extensive list of players down through the year.. Players listed as doubtful or needing tests prior to the elimination final against Brisbane included-
McKay Cerra McGovern Willliams Martin Boyd Durdin Marchbank
We didn't fall off a cliff in 2024...we were pushed off by the injury gods.
The Giants game where Charlie stepped in a hole in the warm up was a turning point. Yeah we had a lot of injuries but he was the best forward in the comp.
But that wasn't the only reason we struggled...there were multiple reasons And that's the thing...at the moment he's far from being the best forward in the competition. He may get back there, but it's his season 2025 form we're judging if we're determining whether or not his l;oss will have impact on our ladder position next year.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 10, 2025, 09:59:51 am
Yep And Wright spent the year having a good look at what was going on and as soon as he took control he made some changes.
Coach and Recruiting team weren't part of those changes...yet!
What was wrong with Cook?
Cook was a good financial administrator but the off-field shenanigans last year were far from controlled. Division and mental health issues, contract distractions, Player discontent. The season was a mess. Just get some of those under control and we're better.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: PaulP on December 10, 2025, 10:00:22 am
I was disappointed and surprised your post didn't get more acknowledgment, Pauly. The Gestalt Therapist within me marvelled at your perspective.
Yes. So many parts of the CFC in support of the playing group, and the playing group itself, have changed in the off season... with significant leadership credentials added to the mix along with strengthened support for existing leadership.
Thank you.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 10, 2025, 10:55:19 am
Our injury list in 2024 consisted of much more than TDK and Curnow
Docherty didn't play until the end of the season and was clearly underdone. As well as an extensive list of players down through the year.. Players listed as doubtful or needing tests prior to the elimination final against Brisbane included-
McKay Cerra McGovern Willliams Martin Boyd Durdin Marchbank
We didn't fall off a cliff in 2024...we were pushed off by the injury gods.
The Giants game where Charlie stepped in a hole in the warm up was a turning point. Yeah we had a lot of injuries but he was the best forward in the comp.
Therein lies the issue.
We were a team heavily reliant on a handful of players. Cripps 2025 form was right down as well.
We need to spread that load and rely less on the stars. The stars sometimes dont like that, so they pull the pin.
Thing is, the 2024 season hit the skids that game, but the rule changes implemented took our strength at fighting through tackles and disposing the pill away from us and then Hawthorn showed that the outside game was the thing you needed (which we didnt possess). The game went away from us. Our strengths masked it, but the pattern of us getting out to an early lead, and then being hunted down was a little more than just strength, conditioning and injury and started in 2024. It continued into 2025. So we are changing it up.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Baggers on December 10, 2025, 04:15:07 pm
Our injury list in 2024 consisted of much more than TDK and Curnow
Docherty didn't play until the end of the season and was clearly underdone. As well as an extensive list of players down through the year.. Players listed as doubtful or needing tests prior to the elimination final against Brisbane included-
McKay Cerra McGovern Willliams Martin Boyd Durdin Marchbank
We didn't fall off a cliff in 2024...we were pushed off by the injury gods.
The Giants game where Charlie stepped in a hole in the warm up was a turning point. Yeah we had a lot of injuries but he was the best forward in the comp.
If our fortunes rely / relied on one person, we're right royally rooted.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 10, 2025, 04:45:41 pm
What I'm arguing with is that you are looking at the 'best' of these players and arguing what we've lost means we will slip further down the ladder. But if Tom, Charlie and Jack, had played at that level (their best) for a whole season I'm pretty sure we would have finished better than eleventh. Even 50-60 goals from Charlie would have made a difference.
TDK is a loss, but it's a loss of a certain type of ruckman and we still have Pittonet who shaded him in ruck work, and O'Keefe (who is a probably a better ruck forward) who will more than likely improve....and Reidy who was behind a couple of pretty good rucks at Freo but played some very good football at the WAFL level, to consider...so net loss for TDK not so much.
So we have to look at their 2025 output when deciding whether or not their loss is as significant as you claim. We only have to replace their 2025 efforts to maintain our position or do better.
Now that's even before we consider the season losses of Newman, Kemp and Jagga. Add the loss of O'Farrell when he was just starting to show the goods. Then consider Harry and his issues...the distraction that was Elijah.
You can't see how we're going to be as good as 11th I can't see how we're going to be worse. So best we agree to disgree.
I'm not comparing them to their best. Nowhere did i say Charlie will kick 81 goals. I didn't put any figure on it actually, but even if he kicks half that, its most likely more than any recruit we bring in. Yes, the load will spread. We may even kick the same amount of goals as 2025, but i guarantee you it will be easier with a half fit Curnow than without. Same with the others. That being said, you are the polar opposite...and not alone. All the players that went out are no good, broken old hacks. and All the players that are coming in have never had a bad game of football in their life and will cover for the a-graders we have lost.
TDK at 'half rat power' is still better than anyone else besides Pittonet.
I did chuckle how you used Pittonets ruck work comparison to show how he is superior to TDK. The same thing you and everyone else have been telling me how unimportant that is. Funny, when the shoe is on the other foot.
Oh i didn't take into account the injured players we get back? Oh, i didn't know you included the players that will be injured this year?!
All things being equal, we got worse. Simple. No amount of spin can change that.
What you, and others, are banking on is that not all things are equal this year. Hopefully we..... a) Get less injuries. b) Get a morale/confidence boost by the incoming players (or the fact the outgoing have left) c) Get a boost from all the extra coaching staff we have added d) Get a few extra wins early with a honeymoon period by surprising them with new lineup and/or gameplan. etc
...and we may very well get that, and i hope we do. Ultimately, that is just papering over the cracks though. Those same things could happen IF we had the same players we just lost.
I'll say this one more time to summarise.
Each individual move that has been made, you can make a point for as being the right thing to do. You might argue one player over another, but in terms of rolls they play and the logic behind it, you can see what they are trying to achieve. However, overall list management needs to look at the macro, not just the micro. Looking at the list as a whole, we've been found lacking and neglected certain areas. Those issues are exacerbated when players leave unexpectedly from those same areas. As a result, i expect to drop this year. I hope that this is the only year that occurs, but more than likely it'll take a couple before we bounce back, and unless there continues to be mass exodus, i expect that to happen. I'm prepared for this trough. I would say it was avoidable, but $h!t happens and it is what it is.
I'm not sure anyone else is prepared for it.....and thats when 'old carlton' takes over and we sack a coach and enter a full rebuild. All for something that should've been avoided, which i've been banging on about for years, but was ignored.
I've argued about how we've fallen off a cliff in the last 18 months. If things go how they very well could, there is another much bigger cliff we can fall off not too far away. Watch this space.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 10, 2025, 07:38:31 pm
I'm not comparing them to their best. Nowhere did i say Charlie will kick 81 goals. I didn't put any figure on it actually, but even if he kicks half that, its most likely more than any recruit we bring in. Yes, the load will spread. We may even kick the same amount of goals as 2025, but i guarantee you it will be easier with a half fit Curnow than without (Opinion with no factual basis) Same with the others. That being said, you are the polar opposite...and not alone. All the players that went out are no good, broken old hacks. and All the players that are coming in have never had a bad game of football in their life and will cover for the a-graders we have lost.
Thats a bit of emotive nonsense...I never said that and I doubt any other poster has ever said that.
TDK at 'half rat power' is still better than anyone else besides Pittonet.
I did chuckle how you used Pittonets ruck work comparison to show how he is superior to TDK. The same thing you and everyone else have been telling me how unimportant that is. Funny, when the shoe is on the other foot.
The only poster I recall saying ruckwork wasn't that important was your good self. The debate was always two rucks vs one. Pittonet is a better tap ruckman. TDK is more like the old ruck rover and is better around the ground. If Tom wasn't available Pitto was a pretty good substitute..and some of the midfielders have said they enjoyed 'roving' to him.
Oh i didn't take into account the injured players we get back? Oh, i didn't know you included the players that will be injured this year?!
They haven't been injured yet so it's pretty hard to include them ::) I've absolutely and consistently stated that injuries could once again derail our season
All things being equal, we got worse. Simple. No amount of spin can change that. Once again your opinion
You haven't been ignored, that would be pretty much impossible. :D It's just others don't agree with you. Some do.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 10, 2025, 08:44:11 pm
Lods... There is no point finding evidence to disprove those claims as we are drifting further and further away from the point.
The point is you and others like you are putting down outgoings and pumping up incomings.
Simply compare people's thoughts pre trade period and post trade period and you'll see the hypocrisy involved.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 10, 2025, 08:55:06 pm
Lods... There is no point finding evidence to disprove those claims as we are drifting further and further away from the point.
The point is you and others like you are putting down outgoings and pumping up incomings.
Simply compare people's thoughts pre trade period and post trade period and you'll see the hypocrisy involved.
No, what we're doing is saying it's not necessarily the case that all the out going players can't be more than covered by the new players and growth in some of the youngsters. As well as that we should hopefully get relief from some of the disruption and division of last year...and injuries in both 2024 and 2025. It's two years in a row that our lists have been put under pressure we don't often experience.
So as a result there is no reason for us to sink further into the mire.
It's as simple as that.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 11, 2025, 02:57:23 am
No, what we're doing is saying it's not necessarily the case that all the out going players can't be more than covered by the new players and growth in some of the youngsters. As well as that we should hopefully get relief from some of the disruption and division of last year...and injuries in both 2024 and 2025. It's two years in a row that our lists have been put under pressure we don't often experience.
So as a result there is no reason for us to sink further into the mire.
It's as simple as that.
There's also the availability of three nominally best 23 players in Smith, Newman and Kemp who were sadly missed last season.
We had three players choose to leave for whatever reasons. You can debate the impact of their departures or their worth but only one of the three was rated in the top 50 players coming in the 2025 season (Jamarra Ugle-Hagan was included!). None made the end of season top 50. Two of them are currently unable to train because of recurring injuries and the third has a dicky knee.
Of the other departures, one decided that he was cooked, another was told that he was cooked, one was traded for a packet of chips and the other five were delisted after managing a total of 104 games between them (and two of them accounted for 81 of those games). It's pretty clear to me that our list managers, with their comprehensive knowledge of player analytics and player availability, were confident that we could bring in better players. That's really the crux of the matter, and time will tell, but it's worth noting none of our new players are delisted free agents or State league hacks. We have gone for three players with runs on the board and in the prime of their careers, two youngsters with potential, two very highly ranked draft picks, and one speculative draft pick. Then there's the natural progression of the youngsters with another pre-season under their belt.
It's true that we didn't draft a KPF who could have spent a season or two in the VFL, but so what? By any reasoned analysis, our list is better placed now than it was in 2025.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 11, 2025, 09:27:58 pm
For mine Kemp is the wildcard addition. Played 5 games in 2025. If he can get anywhere near 15 games and 30 goals, we are well on our way to covering the absence of Charlie's 2025. Only need to have Hayward and Ainsworth chime in to cover the rest and goal output could very well improve. Ditto Skull who only played a handful of games and kicked 1 or 2 goals.
TDK isnt coverable as a like for like, but as Kruddler has written, his output is shaded by Pittonet. So a servicable ruck backfilled is all we need to break even there.
JSOS. 11 games played without going off early (and thats not including Geelong where he ended up with a hand injury.
We played as much good footy without him as we did with him.
See, this isnt a like for like comparison coverage, but an example of the outgoing of 2025 has star quality, but not necessarily star output in our 2025. So to finish near the wildcard spots, we just need a little improvement on 2025 and ill point out, that form across the board was very patchy.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: northernblue on December 12, 2025, 10:25:47 am
Career averages suggest we will be down.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 12, 2025, 11:08:41 am
Career averages tend to be a bit reliant on situations and roles. With Charlie moving on then Harry's goal tally will probably increase, as will his average per game.
Others in the forward line who may have played a secondary role will take more responsibility, and their averages will also increase. Players who shared duties may suddenly have more time on ground and as a result their average per game will increase. Efficiency also will come into play. A more efficient player may not have the same numbers in terms of average disposals per game, but could do a lot more damage than someone who gets it a lot, but doesn't really hurt the opposition.
We're really yet to see what the new guys are capable of in different surroundings.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: northernblue on December 12, 2025, 11:15:05 am
Whilst I understand your viewpoint I don’t share your enthusiasm Lods. Doesn’t matter how many pigs ears we’ve got, we ain’t going to be a high end supplier of silk purses. But it is what it is and we’ll see what we can make of it.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 12, 2025, 11:21:30 am
Whilst I understand your viewpoint I don’t share your enthusiasm Lods. Doesn’t matter how many pigs ears we’ve got, we ain’t going to be a high end supplier of silk purses. But it is what it is and we’ll see what we can make of it.
It's 'to be determined' With a bit of bad luck again with injury we could drop further. A reasonable amount of luck (and we're overdue) and a break even position is more than likely. A bit of development from the youngsters, the trades and draftees working in well...and none of the division and distraction of this year and a move up the ladder a few spots is more than possible.
Up one spot and we're playing finals (whatever they might like to call it) ;)
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 18, 2025, 12:43:00 pm
Ill say one thing about the talls from this draft. With Tassie joining in shortly, these talls are going to get more opportunities in future to make it, as there will be a limited bunch that are any good. Letting others take them in this draft, might ensure there are more available in the next and I also expect that any keys that are floating around will get more opportunities as a result. I reckon Essendon might have one or two that will be free to a good home at the end of next season too, as they went recruiting as many as they could in 2025 to fill in temporary holes.
For those that like to say pessismist and optimist, I simply go realist. I expect somewhere between spots 6 and 12 for 2026. Spots lower than 10 will see us change coach at the end of the season unless we end up having another Annus Horribilius and lose many players across the season. Thats the scenario we drop as low as 14th. If things go swimmingly, depending on other results, we could sneak into top 6 and put us in the frame for a flag. Thats what I am hoping for, but I dont think it will happen either.
I think an average result for us will be in the wildcard places. Wont be happy, wont be dissapointed, but missing that without some extenuating circumstances will mean time for a new coach.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 18, 2025, 03:39:09 pm
For those that like to say pessismist and optimist, I simply go realist. I expect somewhere between spots 6 and 12 for 2026. Spots lower than 10 will see us change coach at the end of the season unless we end up having another Annus Horribilius and lose many players across the season. Thats the scenario we drop as low as 14th. If things go swimmingly, depending on other results, we could sneak into top 6 and put us in the frame for a flag. Thats what I am hoping for, but I dont think it will happen either.
I think everyone would argue that they are 'realists'. :D But the 6 to 12 seems pretty realistic. I'd probably even tighten it a bit more to that 7-10 wild-card area. One problem that may present itself for Voss will be that it may take a bit of time for the new players to gel. As a result we may finish the season better than we start it. If that results in some early struggles to the half way mark it may put a bit of pressure on the coach.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 18, 2025, 03:46:59 pm
For those that like to say pessismist and optimist, I simply go realist. I expect somewhere between spots 6 and 12 for 2026. Spots lower than 10 will see us change coach at the end of the season unless we end up having another Annus Horribilius and lose many players across the season. Thats the scenario we drop as low as 14th. If things go swimmingly, depending on other results, we could sneak into top 6 and put us in the frame for a flag. Thats what I am hoping for, but I dont think it will happen either.
I think everyone would argue that they are 'realists'. :D But the 6 to 12 seems pretty realistic. I'd probably even tighten it a bit more to that 7-10 wild-card area. One problem that may present itself for Voss will be that it may take a bit of time for the new players to gel. As a result we may finish the season better than we start it. If that results in some early struggles to the half way mark it may put a bit of pressure on the coach.
The start of the year is harder than the end of the year where we have a run of games in Melbourne.
What will happen is everyone expecting finals will be in for a shock at the start of the year while we wait for players to gel, our new game plan to be worked out and results will suffer. People will lose their mind and Carlton will be Carlton and we'll sack the coach and go full rebuild as a result.
If we can lower our expectations, realise that we will be pretty screwed for the first half of the year and hold firm until the back half which should net more wins, then we might be half ok. I expect supporters to burn the place down before we get that far though.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 18, 2025, 03:48:24 pm
^^ Thankfully most people think we are worse off sans charlie tdk and jsos so arent expecting much.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 18, 2025, 03:51:50 pm
Ill say one thing about the talls from this draft. With Tassie joining in shortly, these talls are going to get more opportunities in future to make it, as there will be a limited bunch that are any good. Letting others take them in this draft, might ensure there are more available in the next and I also expect that any keys that are floating around will get more opportunities as a result. I reckon Essendon might have one or two that will be free to a good home at the end of next season too, as they went recruiting as many as they could in 2025 to fill in temporary holes.
For those that like to say pessismist and optimist, I simply go realist. I expect somewhere between spots 6 and 12 for 2026. Spots lower than 10 will see us change coach at the end of the season unless we end up having another Annus Horribilius and lose many players across the season. Thats the scenario we drop as low as 14th. If things go swimmingly, depending on other results, we could sneak into top 6 and put us in the frame for a flag. Thats what I am hoping for, but I dont think it will happen either.
I think an average result for us will be in the wildcard places. Wont be happy, wont be dissapointed, but missing that without some extenuating circumstances will mean time for a new coach.
I'm trying to follow your train of thought here, but i'm missing something.
Are you saying there will be more talls available next year because teams like Essendon have extra talls so some will be available? Isn't that us hoping to secure rejects from other teams? Is that the best way to go about it??
I really don't like a list management strategy that relies on other teams giving us what we need. Its destined for failure.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Baggers on December 18, 2025, 04:57:40 pm
We really won't 'know' how good (or otherwise) this group/list is, until the heat of battle next year. Can't wait.
I find myself optimistic about 2026. But I'm the same before the beginning of most seasons.
Bottom line is that there are so many moving parts, so many variables and 17 other clubs going through much the same as us. Soooo many IFs.
The number 1 IF would be for a healthy list giving us the very best chance to show our best. Already being without HOF is a concern. The number 2 IF would be for how long it will take this list to gel, considering the number of new faces. And the number 3 IF would be our skills and ability to move the aggott quickly (and accurately). We know our pressure and contest is in the top bracket but can we successfully integrate a deadly offensive game?
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 18, 2025, 08:41:30 pm
Ill say one thing about the talls from this draft. With Tassie joining in shortly, these talls are going to get more opportunities in future to make it, as there will be a limited bunch that are any good. Letting others take them in this draft, might ensure there are more available in the next and I also expect that any keys that are floating around will get more opportunities as a result. I reckon Essendon might have one or two that will be free to a good home at the end of next season too, as they went recruiting as many as they could in 2025 to fill in temporary holes.
For those that like to say pessismist and optimist, I simply go realist. I expect somewhere between spots 6 and 12 for 2026. Spots lower than 10 will see us change coach at the end of the season unless we end up having another Annus Horribilius and lose many players across the season. Thats the scenario we drop as low as 14th. If things go swimmingly, depending on other results, we could sneak into top 6 and put us in the frame for a flag. Thats what I am hoping for, but I dont think it will happen either.
I think an average result for us will be in the wildcard places. Wont be happy, wont be dissapointed, but missing that without some extenuating circumstances will mean time for a new coach.
I'm trying to follow your train of thought here, but i'm missing something.
Are you saying there will be more talls available next year because teams like Essendon have extra talls so some will be available? Isn't that us hoping to secure rejects from other teams? Is that the best way to go about it??
I really don't like a list management strategy that relies on other teams giving us what we need. Its destined for failure.
Nope. This years bunch might be bog ordinary. Because so many have been taken the talls from next year might not be on everyone's radar.
Also, the ones taken now are going to get more chances to make it because the new team will require an additional 6 key position players minimum as part of their talent pool.
So, the key position players taken in 2025, might prevent you from getting a good or really good one in the next draft based on how the talent was rated.
We wont know for years
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 18, 2025, 10:50:34 pm
Ah the old, 'simply wasnt any talented talls available this year' argument. I hear that one most years.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 18, 2025, 11:30:44 pm
They could have picked a tall at 28, and probably would have had Emmett slipped through. But when he went they traded the pick. That probably is a fair indication they didn't rate any of the talls following.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: LP on December 19, 2025, 05:13:00 am
Luckily it looks like we have finally thrown out "the formula", it's like our first step towards success.
The formulaic approach to recruitment and list management, tactics too, is just more of what everyone else does, and that just makes you achieve the average.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 19, 2025, 05:55:12 am
They could have picked a tall at 28, and probably would have had Emmett slipped through. But when he went they traded the pick. That probably is a fair indication they didn't rate any of the talls following.
I flagged at the end of night 1 that we should trade up 3 spots to ensure we get 'our guy' whoever that may be. This is before we let someone else bid on ison ensuring it would allow us to get both.
Opportunity was there, it didn't happen, i can't buy that excuse.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 19, 2025, 05:56:36 am
Luckily it looks like we have finally thrown out "the formula", it's like our first step towards success.
The formulaic approach to recruitment and list management, tactics too, is just more of what everyone else does, and that just makes you achieve the average.
Thing with being average and changing the way you do things, it can also leave you further behind the rest as a result
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 19, 2025, 07:26:10 am
I flagged at the end of night 1 that we should trade up 3 spots to ensure we get 'our guy' whoever that may be. This is before we let someone else bid on ison ensuring it would allow us to get both.
Opportunity was there, it didn't happen, i can't buy that excuse.
Of course you can't buy it. Because we 'play' draft night (and the trade period also) in our minds and on keyboards and not in the 'real' world. And in our world everything plays out to get the result we desire.
We have no idea of the discussion between clubs and only a vague, and often biased, knowledge of list management priorities for the night and how they affect the make up of a list for the following year and in the future.
We don't see or hear the talks between clubs (other than maybe some vague report that they are discussing a player or picks). We don't see or hear the offers that club make on the night. We don't know the offers to trade up or down that are rejected. We arent privy to the phone calls. We have absolutely no idea of other clubs strategies and priorities and why they would be willing to trade up or down a couple of spots (they may have an interest in exactly the same player).
If you can think of a scenario, a list management team has probably also thought of the same scenario, but with much greater appreciation of the pros and cons... and the obstacles.
We look at a draft profile and see "Ooh, He's tall and he has more strengths than weaknesses, lets pick him!" We don't spend hours observing these young players actually playing, and talking to them, which sometimes might reveal something other than playing ability, that might make a club hit pause on the player or overlook them completely.
And then we ask, WTF were they thinking :D :D
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 19, 2025, 09:07:09 am
As far as I know, none of us interviewed any of the young fellows who nominated for the draft or have watched most of their junior football careers either.
Taking a player in the draft is not a random, spontaneous, opportunistic decision by an individual. It is a calculated, scenario-driven process by team of talent scouts, data analysts, strategists and list managers with dossiers on every potential draft pick. They're also dealing with 17 other clubs who are equally determined to follow their strategies and won't agree to pick trades unless it's to their advantage. A club can't simply "trade up" without convincing other clubs that it's in their interests to take part. Do they get it wrong? Of course they do, but nowhere near as often as footy fans like to think.
List management with the benefit of hindsight is easy.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 19, 2025, 09:24:14 am
Ah the old, 'simply wasnt any talented talls available this year' argument. I hear that one most years.
No, not that at all.
The talls in this draft were of a relative standard of talent. remember you wonder why a highly rated (or not highly) wasnt taken, cast your mind to some players.
1. Sam Wiedemann and Scott Gumbleton, Matthew Watson. 2. Nick Larkey Brodie Mihocek.
Ultimately, there is not telling what happens from drafted to playing at AFL level.
its not about their talent level. The next Wayne Carey may very well have been selected in this draft, but for every one of those, there is plenty of examples of talent taken who never kick on.
Thats not to say dont select one. Ultimately I always think back to the draft where we took Pat Mccarthy, Luke Mitchell and Andrew Mccinnes as a reason to defer to a higher authority.
Maybe you have a better knowledge of the prospects. For me, Ive seen maybe 8 minutes of footage of each player I advocate for us taking at the draft, and thats not really enough to know better than the guys employed to do this job.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 19, 2025, 09:31:10 am
The other draft I consider is the one that had the Rich vs Ziebell vs Yarran discussion. Despite all the highly rated ability and capability of the players in this draft. I think Jack Watts was taken before them, and Steele Sidebottom was the pick of the bunch.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Professer E on December 19, 2025, 09:55:45 am
If we want to keep Walsh we need to be competitive.
Andre McInnes was a seriously good kid ruined by a knee. McCarthy was ruined by a foot fracture. Mitchell was not a smart pick, very strong but lacked pace and agility.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 19, 2025, 09:56:41 am
The other draft I consider is the one that had the Rich vs Ziebell vs Yarran discussion. Despite all the highly rated ability and capability of the players in this draft. I think Jack Watts was taken before them, and Steele Sidebottom was the pick of the bunch.
Yes, for all of the analysis and strategising that goes into determining who to pick, there’s the short and long games, and an element of luck.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 19, 2025, 09:58:46 am
No one can comment on anything here then, shut the forum down.
What are you talking about? Everyone can raise points of discussion Everyone else has the right to challenge those. That's what discussion forums are all about. Give an example of where people have been told they shouldn't comment.
If someone wants to use a set of figures, or a table, or a team sheet to make a point then they should be prepared for the point they are making to be challenged. If someone find the challenges not to their liking pick another thread. The code of conduct spells out actions and issues that may not be appropriate.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: madbluboy on December 19, 2025, 11:35:20 am
Kruddler goes to great effort to discuss list management and pulling out the old club knows more than you is just lazy and discourages people from participating.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 19, 2025, 12:05:02 pm
Kruddler goes to great effort to discuss list management and pulling out the old club knows more than you is just lazy and discourages people from participating.
Im not saying don't cricitise. Its hard for me to know. I would have selected a tall at this draft, but how do I overule them on anything when I dont know? I watched two videos of talls. Ludowyk, and Curin. To me, Curtin was the better prospect, but it was a highlight reel.
And, also dont sit there saying we have blind faith in the list management team, when its difficult to have an alternative viewpoint unless you are connected in recruiting circles.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 19, 2025, 12:17:25 pm
Kruddler goes to great effort to discuss list management and pulling out the old club knows more than you is just lazy and discourages people from participating.
Agree, the lack of success vindicates a lot of what Krud discusses. The club knows best is living in denial of reality.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 19, 2025, 12:46:12 pm
Seriously. ::) Kruddler makes some valid arguments that on the face of things may make many people question the club list management direction.
But to suggest that he does so without the full resources, effort and background knowledge that the club possesses isn't lazy...it's a fact.
I think the problem is that in presenting a lot of information contrary to the club's direction it is also presented as a 'fact' rather than an opinion.
I'm truly sorry if the 'club knows a little more' about the draftees' hits a nerve. It's just something I happen to believe...and yes it may not always end in a desired outcome, but that doesn't mean multiple options haven't been explored. It's like an iceberg...we only see the tip and the final result.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 19, 2025, 02:04:33 pm
I flagged at the end of night 1 that we should trade up 3 spots to ensure we get 'our guy' whoever that may be. This is before we let someone else bid on ison ensuring it would allow us to get both.
Opportunity was there, it didn't happen, i can't buy that excuse.
Of course you can't buy it. Because we 'play' draft night (and the trade period also) in our minds and on keyboards and not in the 'real' world. And in our world everything plays out to get the result we desire.
We have no idea of the discussion between clubs and only a vague, and often biased, knowledge of list management priorities for the night and how they affect the make up of a list for the following year and in the future.
We don't see or hear the talks between clubs (other than maybe some vague report that they are discussing a player or picks). We don't see or hear the offers that club make on the night. We don't know the offers to trade up or down that are rejected. We arent privy to the phone calls. We have absolutely no idea of other clubs strategies and priorities and why they would be willing to trade up or down a couple of spots (they may have an interest in exactly the same player).
If you can think of a scenario, a list management team has probably also thought of the same scenario, but with much greater appreciation of the pros and cons... and the obstacles.
We look at a draft profile and see "Ooh, He's tall and he has more strengths than weaknesses, lets pick him!" We don't spend hours observing these young players actually playing, and talking to them, which sometimes might reveal something other than playing ability, that might make a club hit pause on the player or overlook them completely.
And then we ask, WTF were they thinking :D :D
A couple of things.
I'm not saying pick player x because i've watched him more than anyone else.
I concede the club watches a lot more than i or anyone does. That doesn't mean they don't make mistakes.
In this instance i'm talking specifically about the player YOU raised that was flagged as a need/want by the club by those in the know. There were 4 players mentioned, we got 3 of them (albeit 2 of them were f/s academy picks) the 4th was the one in question - Emmett.
The line, "well he didn't last until our pick" is simply poor list management. If we want and/or need someone, you do what you need to do to get them. Yes, some years its true. 100% it is not true every year for the past 10 years! That is what i can't buy.
I've been flagging the same thing for years. Draft KPPs BEFORE you need them. We simply haven't done enough of that which has been evident by how we've been unable to cover injuries to this area in the past. Whether or not we completely change how we 'build a team' from here is a common argument.....and thats fine. But that doesn't take into account Harry is a year closer to retirement and his replacement is still not on the list....and perhaps, like Charlie, won't be on the list until after he's already gone.
So....going back to Emmett. IF we wanted him and rated him. like the tea leaves suggest, then we failed to deliver in getting him. Maybe this year they 'really tried' and nobody would have it. Perhaps thats true. What about last year? What about the year before? What about the year before that?
There is always 'some' excuse that people come up with to defend the list management team. Why? There seems to be a field of Melbourne Cup winning horses paraded past us and every year we pass on them because we are looking for a unicorn instead. Someone who is elite, but 'free'. Well unicorns don't exist, so change tact.
So again, this isn't me being dirty about 'my guy', this about who we as a club rated.....and didn't get, so don't play that card.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 19, 2025, 02:15:59 pm
Seriously. ::) Kruddler makes some valid arguments that on the face of things may make many people question the club list management direction.
But to suggest that he does so without the full resources, effort and background knowledge that the club possesses isn't lazy...it's a fact.
I think the problem is that in presenting a lot of information contrary to the club's direction it is also presented as a 'fact' rather than an opinion.
I'm truly sorry if the 'club knows a little more' about the draftees' hits a nerve. It's just something I happen to believe...and yes it may not always end in a desired outcome, but that doesn't mean multiple options haven't been explored. It's like an iceberg...we only see the tip and the final result.
Let me be clear.....i have my own personal opinions on who i would draft and when, and i don't think i've ever suggested that my knowledge on any given player is greater than the clubs.
That is not the point.
I always point to a 'type' that we need and i might offer a suggestion based on 'the wisdom of the masses' and phantom drafts etc on who should be available at our pick who fits that type. In this instance it was ludowycke. Last year it was one/either of the twins.
Now club preferred Emmett, so be it, i dont care, its fits the bill, do it.
So lets not fixate on the names, its never been about the names.
I've given the list management team the benefit of the doubt many a year over based on all the excuses i hear every year. - We didn't have the picks. - There wasn't anyone talented enough at our pick - We had greater needs elsewhere - This was a shallow draft for talls - Maybe nobody wanted to trade with us - This player was too good to pass up on.
All valid excuses in any one year. Maybe even a couple years. You can't go the better part of a decade recycling those excuses though. There comes a time where you can (and should) make things happen. At the end of the day, we simply haven't.
I've run out of patience. I flagged the need to get backups up to speed before Charlie and Harry and Weiters etc get to retirement/declining output age and it simply isn't happening and if that is not on the list management team to sort out, then please tell me which department is responsibile and i'll direct my arguments at them instead.
Last year i said our list got worse, and few agreed....well that and some injuries proved that it clearly did. This year i'm saying the same and thats yet to be confirmed.....but if i'm correct, there will be enough egg on faces to feed a starving nation.....and i'd love to hear what excuses people have lined up this year.
One last thing....how many people picked either Lewis Young or Mitch McGovern in their bests teams? These 2 players were basically told to look elsewhere because they are not up to scratch and not the future. Both of these guys have been retained and both are in line for a started KP role simply due to lack of other options, and are our best backups at worst. Does that not set off alarm bells with people?
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 19, 2025, 03:18:11 pm
Seriously. ::) Kruddler makes some valid arguments that on the face of things may make many people question the club list management direction.
But to suggest that he does so without the full resources, effort and background knowledge that the club possesses isn't lazy...it's a fact.
I think the problem is that in presenting a lot of information contrary to the club's direction it is also presented as a 'fact' rather than an opinion.
I'm truly sorry if the 'club knows a little more' about the draftees' hits a nerve. It's just something I happen to believe...and yes it may not always end in a desired outcome, but that doesn't mean multiple options haven't been explored. It's like an iceberg...we only see the tip and the final result.
Not always is a stretch of the truth, try " never", 20-30 years of failure tells the story of a club who failed to embrace the draft from day one and whose list management strategies have been ineffective for the majority of the time. Krud like any other supporter is vindicated in being skeptical of any List Management decisions and at least provides detail and background to his theories rather than the clubs lack of accountability hidden under a Navy Blue blur of PR and spin. How does having access to more resources give the List Management at the club any credibility when clearly the results dont back up that implication? and in fact having more access to greater resources only makes their performance even more questionable over the journey.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 19, 2025, 04:18:28 pm
That's one of the problems I see. Folks are living in the past...and tarring the current list management, which is a work in progress, on past failures. What we've done for the last twenty five years has little bearing on what we've done in the last two years. If you look at our list at the start of 2024 we had the KPP's nailed down and good ruck stocks. We set about filling the gaps. Priorities would have turned to better ball users and a bit of pace. But then injuries and other issues hit us hard, offers came for our KPPs, season ending injuries happened, mental health issues and player divisions fractured the list.
Have a look at the side we, as a forum, picked at the beginning of the year. Then look at what happened to it in terms of games played. Then tell me if even half those things didn't occur we would have still finished 11th. The list management hasn't been as bad as some people think. The luck and other issues have been worse than most people realise.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 19, 2025, 04:23:52 pm
Folks are living in the past? You can't judge the current crop for years.
Geez how do i get a gig where there is no possible way to be judged?
I've said previously, what had the current team done to be given a free pass by everyone?
I could save the club millions simply by drafting off phantom lists. No accountability required
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 19, 2025, 04:39:27 pm
Folks are living in the past? You can't judge the current crop for years.
Geez how do i get a gig where there is no possible way to be judged?
I've said previously, what had the current team done to be given a free pass by everyone?
I could save the club millions simply by drafting off phantom lists. No accountability required
While folks continue to talk about things over half a century old they are dwelling on the past.
And is the list management team getting a free pass with no accountability?? An experienced former list manager, one who knows what it takes to build a premiership side, has spent the last 12 months surveying the club before taking over as CEO and removing the head of football.
At this point he has not done the same with either the coach or the list management team.
Now there is a possibility that he decided there was no time to change-up list mangement given the closeness of the trade/draft period. If that's the case Austin and others will be gone early in the New Year. In that case I'll have no problem in admitting he didn't pass muster.
But as of this moment he seems to have the confidence of the CEO who knows a thing or two about list management...so I'd say either way there is certainly accountability.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 19, 2025, 04:48:26 pm
That's one of the problems I see. Folks are living in the past...and tarring the current list management, which is a work in progress, on past failures. What we've done for the last twenty five years has little bearing on what we've done in the last two years. If you look at our list at the start of 2024 we had the KPP's nailed down and good ruck stocks. We set about filling the gaps. Priorities would have turned to better ball users and a bit of pace. But then injuries and other issues hit us hard, offers came for our KPPs, season ending injuries happened, mental health issues and player divisions fractured the list.
Have a look at the side we, as a forum, picked at the beginning of the year. Then look at what happened to it in terms of games played. Then tell me if even half those things didn't occur we would have still finished 11th. The list management hasn't been as bad as some people think. The luck and other issues have been worse than most people realise.
Nick Austin has been at the club for six years, remind me when we started rebuilding? You want Austin and crew judged on the last two years only?, so I would presume that initial rebuild has been declared a failure and we are starting again given you say we are a work in progress?
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 19, 2025, 05:15:54 pm
So when he started we were 16th From memory SOS took care of the 2019 draft so 2020 is probably his.
2020 11th 2021 13th 2022 9th 2023 5th-prelim 2024 injury hit and still finished 8th 2025-all the drama in the world and still finished 11th
That's terrible list management...building a prelim side. He should be sacked. People have short memories ::) ::)
The last two years have actually been backwards for obvious (to most) reasons. So we do need and have a change in emphasis, we need to cover some losses and get back on track....but by no means a major rebuild.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: madbluboy on December 19, 2025, 05:57:55 pm
Most of the players from 2023 were SOS's
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 19, 2025, 06:11:12 pm
Well you were wrong about one thing ....it certainly didn't stifle discussion
But in respect of the above.... people are arguing he's had more than enough time. 6 years in fact You're arguing he hasn't had enough time and it was still SOS's list until 2024. ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 19, 2025, 06:13:48 pm
So when he started we were 16th From memory SOS took care of the 2019 draft so 2020 is probably his.
2020 11th 2021 13th 2022 9th 2023 5th-prelim 2024 injury hit and still finished 8th 2025-all the drama in the world and still finished 11th
That's terrible list management...building a prelim side. He should be sacked. People have short memories ::) ::)
The last two years have actually been backwards for obvious (to most) reasons. So we do need and have a change in emphasis, we need to cover some losses and get back on track....but by no means a major rebuild.
Stkilda made the eight in 2020 and 2023 and no one would call them successful. Your idea of success is setting the bar very low. Supporters are being conditioned to accept mediocrity, finishing 11th would have triggered a Navy Blue Royal Commission back in the glory days but like the Saints making the eight for us is to be celebrated like a premiership now unfortunately. In fact Stkilda tried the same tactics as us this past draft/trade period when in 2019 they brought in Howard, Butler,Jones, Ryder and Hill as readymade players and as we know with limited success, triggering a fresh rebuild. A similar outcome for us wouldn't surprise...
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 19, 2025, 06:28:22 pm
So when he started we were 16th From memory SOS took care of the 2019 draft so 2020 is probably his.
2020 11th 2021 13th 2022 9th 2023 5th-prelim 2024 injury hit and still finished 8th 2025-all the drama in the world and still finished 11th
That's terrible list management...building a prelim side. He should be sacked. People have short memories ::) ::)
The last two years have actually been backwards for obvious (to most) reasons. So we do need and have a change in emphasis, we need to cover some losses and get back on track....but by no means a major rebuild.
Stkilda made the eight in 2020 and 2023 and no one would call them successful. Your idea of success is setting the bar very low. Supporters are being conditioned to accept mediocrity, finishing 11th would have triggered a Navy Blue Royal Commission back in the glory days but like the Saints making the eight for us is to be celebrated like a premiership now unfortunately. In fact Stkilda tried the same tactics as us this past draft/trade period when in 2019 they brought in Howard, Butler,Jones, Ryder and Hill as readymade players and as we know with limited success, triggering a fresh rebuild. A similar outcome for us wouldn't surprise...
'Days of yore expectations' are unrealistic in a modern 18 team competition. Even a dinosaur like me realises that... They're twice as hard to win, even moreso given the restrictions on clubs. A Royal Commission would completely exonerate anyone involved in the 2025 debacle, especially the list manager. Voss gets a pass. Austin has little if any control over club dynamics.
The bar isn't set low. It's set unrealistically high by ignoring all that occurred with the club during the season just gone.
All any supporter can ask for is continued improvement each year. But that path is rarely a straight line and there will be peaks and troughs which usually occur around the availability of players.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Blue Moon on December 19, 2025, 06:30:10 pm
Looking at those past finishes, Carlton has been in the dead zone. There are reasons and explanations but facts are facts. I am reasonably confident about how this year's trade and draft went, despite players we lost, but we should know pretty early whether we are going to be mediocre again this year.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 19, 2025, 06:44:32 pm
Looking at those past finishes, Carlton has been in the dead zone. There are reasons and explanations but facts are facts. I am reasonably confident about how this year's trade and draft went, despite players we lost, but we should know pretty early whether we are going to be mediocre again this year.
That's the bottom line. How next year pans out. Everything else is just a guess. My own feeling is we may start a little slowly as the new players find their place, and then be better later in the year. That may not be the best for Voss, but hopefully he gets the whole year for judgement.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 19, 2025, 06:46:15 pm
The bar isn't set low. It's set unrealistically high by ignoring all that occurred with the club during the season just gone.
All any supporter can ask for is continued improvement each year. But that path is rarely a straight line and there will be peaks and troughs which usually occur around the availability of players.
He gets a pass because we had injuries? Its not the injuries that killed us, it was the lack of talent behind our starters that killed us.
Now who would be responsible for that? Perhaps if we didn't have 13 small forwards on the list we could've coped with injuries better?
The lack of a balanced most was exposed by injuries and he still gets a free pass out of it?
Its all tied together.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 19, 2025, 07:03:09 pm
The bar isn't set low. It's set unrealistically high by ignoring all that occurred with the club during the season just gone.
All any supporter can ask for is continued improvement each year. But that path is rarely a straight line and there will be peaks and troughs which usually occur around the availability of players.
He gets a pass because we had injuries? Its not the injuries that killed us, it was the lack of talent behind our starters that killed us.
Now who would be responsible for that? Perhaps if we didn't have 13 small forwards on the list we could've coped with injuries better?
The lack of a balanced most was exposed by injuries and he still gets a free pass out of it?
Its all tied together.
The injuries weren't all to talls. All lines were affected. And so he adds to the depth in the latest draft with...A tall, a mid and a small...and trades in some goal kicking ability. Depth seems to have been a priority...still he cops it. The use of the term a 'free pass' is a bit nonsensical given the criticism from some areas.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 19, 2025, 07:08:42 pm
I don't think anyone would question the time and effort Kruddler puts into his analysis of list management and other discussion points. However, there's plenty to question about his methodology, assumptions and conclusions, and that's what helps make this place tick.
Again, I don't think anyone here would be unhappy if we were to draft the next Jonathan Brown, but there's a much greater chance that any club hoping for a Jonathan Brown will end up with a Jonathon Patton. Bringing in another Stephen Kernahan via trade or free agency would be far more likely to be successful.
The scuttlebutt is that we were interested in Louis Emmett but the Bulldogs snapped him up. Would the "draft a KPF" crew been happy with that? What about if the rest of the scuttlebutt is correct and he's going to be developed as a KPD?
What annoys me about the criticism of our list management team's work at the draft is not so much the bleating about not picking a KPF, no matter how banged up or unready for AFL he might have been. It's the downplaying of the fact that we snared the best KPP in the draft. All I read is 'he can't play on 200cm KPFs', 'we only got him because he's a father-son pick', 'he won't be ready for AFL', he's too short', 'he won't be as good as Jack', 'we've put all our eggs in one basket', 'we should have drafted a KPF instead of a KPD', why didn't we draft a State league KPP?', 'we could have taken [insert any delisted rookie KPP]' ...
Drafting Harry Dean (and Jack Ison) was a masterclass in NGA player development and astute list management. That is probably why both Fox and ESPN rate our work at the draft as equal third best ... but what would they know? And they're probably following an agenda.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 19, 2025, 07:16:03 pm
Hewett Saad Cerra Acres Docherty Cripps O. Hollands Motlop Jordan Boyd Cincotta
All recruited without sos input, all played significant footy in 2023 (19 games or more).
Its not that sos did a job and Austin stuffed it. You cant argue we ever rise up the ladder with one or the other. Austin recognised some weaknesses and didnt build on the team probably because our hands were tied salary cap wise so we went young.
I've written it before, our time was then, and luck with injury robbed us more than anything else but last year you can make that case again, but the game is changing again. 5 on the bench with 75 rotations.
We have changed it up significantly because as close as we were one or two players wasn't enough to bridge the gap to the best of the best and we all know
SOS did a decent job with the list but a lot of his draft selections missed the mark.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 19, 2025, 07:52:47 pm
I don't think anyone would question the time and effort Kruddler puts into his analysis of list management and other discussion points. However, there's plenty to question about his methodology, assumptions and conclusions, and that's what helps make this place tick.
Again, I don't think anyone here would be unhappy if we were to draft the next Jonathan Brown, but there's a much greater chance that any club hoping for a Jonathan Brown will end up with a Jonathon Patton. Bringing in another Stephen Kernahan via trade or free agency would be far more likely to be successful.
The scuttlebutt is that we were interested in Louis Emmett but the Bulldogs snapped him up. Would the "draft a KPF" crew been happy with that? What about if the rest of the scuttlebutt is correct and he's going to be developed as a KPD?
What annoys me about the criticism of our list management team's work at the draft is not so much the bleating about not picking a KPF, no matter how banged up or unready for AFL he might have been. It's the downplaying of the fact that we snared the best KPP in the draft. All I read is 'he can't play on 200cm KPFs', 'we only got him because he's a father-son pick', 'he won't be ready for AFL', he's too short', 'he won't be as good as Jack', 'we've put all our eggs in one basket', 'we should have drafted a KPF instead of a KPD', why didn't we draft a State league KPP?', 'we could have taken [insert any delisted rookie KPP]' ...
Drafting Harry Dean (and Jack Ison) was a masterclass in NGA player development and astute list management. That is probably why both Fox and ESPN rate our work at the draft as equal third best ... but what would they know? And they're probably following an agenda.
1. Forget about any outside ratings. It's based on one years work and 1 year only. 2. Nobody is complaining about Harry Dean. I made 1 comment about a perceived weakness and that was confirmed. That doesn't mean we delist him now. Everyone had weaknesses. Move on. 3. Why do you give kudos to the list managers for drafting people we've had developing for years? That is shooting fish in a barrel. Kudos to the club for developing an academy that is starting to pay off. Not rocket science to take them.
What is it about my methodology that needs questioning? Any assumptions and conclusions can be argued as is the nature of assumptions and conclusions.
As for emmett, you miss the point again. "Oh he is no good because he will be a defender?" Maybe. Remember where the name came from... the club.... albeit indirectly. I don't care if it was him or whoever. That's not the point. The point is the club failed to fill a need, and one they highlighted... and it was really easy to change that.... but they didn't.
Perhaps you should be questioning why the club wanted him at all if he is a defender?! Or is that not possible because they are not to be questioned or spoken bad about.
I sunset how happy you'll be after another poor year
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: LP on December 19, 2025, 10:45:22 pm
Sure, it's a risk, but doing the same thing over and over again,,............... well we know what that means!
I would argue that as a prelim side, drastic measures were not required, but rather staying the course wouldve yielded better results.
And I would argue that as a preliminary final side in '23, we were brittle as evidenced by the result. How did Charles perform in that finals series? The cracks were there to the objective observer. In terms of the coaching group (leadership)... we did stay the course and the results for 2024/5 worsened each year.
To assume that because you make a preliminary final you'll just naturally, even magically, improve the next year is naive at best... hubris at worst.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 20, 2025, 10:02:36 am
I would argue that as a prelim side, drastic measures were not required, but rather staying the course wouldve yielded better results.
And I would argue that as a preliminary final side in '23, we were brittle as evidenced by the result. How did Charles perform in that finals series? The cracks were there to the objective observer. In terms of the coaching group (leadership)... we did stay the course and the results for 2024/5 worsened each year.
To assume that because you make a preliminary final you'll just naturally, even magically, improve the next year is naive at best... hubris at worst.
2 sides to every coin.
How well did we do with Charlie doing nothing? Imagine if we get him up to speed and added depth around him, rather than losing depth. Thats not so 'magical' now is it?
Results did worsen, but thats about the playing list rather than the coaching. Even Docherty said as much post retirement.....thats if you don't want to take my word for it which was well documented at the time as well.
....and one last thing. The result 'proves' we were brittle?
In case you are unaware, that team that showed how 'brittle' we were, were a goal off having a 3-peat.....and we had them 5 goals down on their home deck early. Doesn't seem brittle to me. Seems to have been beaten by the best side in the modern game right now
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 20, 2025, 11:20:06 am
And I would argue that as a preliminary final side in '23, we were brittle as evidenced by the result. How did Charles perform in that finals series? The cracks were there to the objective observer. In terms of the coaching group (leadership)... we did stay the course and the results for 2024/5 worsened each year.
To assume that because you make a preliminary final you'll just naturally, even magically, improve the next year is naive at best... hubris at worst.
2 sides to every coin.
How well did we do with Charlie doing nothing? Imagine if we get him up to speed and added depth around him, rather than losing depth. Thats not so 'magical' now is it?
Results did worsen, but thats about the playing list rather than the coaching. Even Docherty said as much post retirement.....thats if you don't want to take my word for it which was well documented at the time as well.
....and one last thing. The result 'proves' we were brittle?
In case you are unaware, that team that showed how 'brittle' we were, were a goal off having a 3-peat.....and we had them 5 goals down on their home deck early. Doesn't seem brittle to me. Seems to have been beaten by the best side in the modern game right now
So are you saying our list manager had built a side capable of winning a flag :D :D
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: crashlander on December 20, 2025, 02:43:47 pm
One point that we don't tend to mention much when we talk about injuries, is that it almost thirty years since we last had a more or less complete list to select from. Thirty years. And it just happens to coincide with our worst performance as a club? No, I don't think so. And it isn't that we've had spuds for fitness people over that period of time.
If you look at the teams who have enjoyed success over that time period, most of them had reasonably complete list to choose from. Yes, there have been a few who have had injury problems, but nothing on the scale that we've suffered. We've seen over the last couple of years that side who experience significant injuries tend to fail. Essendon in 2025 is an excellent example, although Collingwood in the last two years has also been a good example.
So, since Rd 4 1996 (the last time we had less than 3 on the injured list), we have struggled.
Now injuries haven't been our only problem; we've had recruiting issues (perhaps the worst periods of recruiting in our history), boardroom dramas, lack on off-field leadership and uninspired coaching selections, but the common theme across the entire period has been injuries to significant personnel. For example, Wayne Brittain's first year or so wasn't bad, but when the injuries hit, we fell off the cliff. We never really got to see how good he could be as a coach because of that; the board lost patience and didn't supply with with the recruits we needed. There were times under Pagan that we didn't have any senior listed players left in the VFL because of injuries late in the season. I could go on. 2024, for example.
What can we do about it? Now that is a good question. [1] We've changed fitness people a number of times. At present, we might not be having the same number of injuries as we did in 2024, but we don't appear as fit either. It will be interesting to see if that has been addressed over the summer. [2] We have improved our way of recruiting. There have been questions over our draft strategies in recent times, and fair enough. But we have radically improved our recruiting since the dark days of Wayne Hughes. We managed to have one almost perfect Draft, under Stephen Silvagni, even though most of those players have now left us, but his next couple we unmitigated disasters. Since Austin has come in, we don't have so many peaks and troughs, but ... We have clearly improved, but we can do better. [3] Off-field we are a much tighter, much improved ship. We don't appear to have the factional infighting that crippled us for years. Doesn't mean we can't improve in this area. [4] Coaching - maybe the biggest remaining question. With a whole new crew in 2026, we'll see if Voss has what it takes to get us success. Still, we are clearly thinking to improve here, where, for years, we just just plodded on.
So, we have addressed a number of our issues, how successfully we'll find out soon. But, until we have most of our players fit and available for most of the time, we won't have addressed the last issue that needs serious attention.
(It was lovely to see the AFLW girls this season play with a minimum of injuries. We weren't quite injury free, but no Carlton side has been better in this area in thirty years. And how did we perform? We significantly improved. If this isn't a lesson for a club, then I don't know what is.)
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 20, 2025, 03:29:35 pm
How well did we do with Charlie doing nothing? Imagine if we get him up to speed and added depth around him, rather than losing depth. Thats not so 'magical' now is it?
Results did worsen, but thats about the playing list rather than the coaching. Even Docherty said as much post retirement.....thats if you don't want to take my word for it which was well documented at the time as well.
....and one last thing. The result 'proves' we were brittle?
In case you are unaware, that team that showed how 'brittle' we were, were a goal off having a 3-peat.....and we had them 5 goals down on their home deck early. Doesn't seem brittle to me. Seems to have been beaten by the best side in the modern game right now
So are you saying our list manager had built a side capable of winning a flag :D :D
Potentially....but our previous one...
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 20, 2025, 03:48:36 pm
So are you saying our list manager had built a side capable of winning a flag :D :D
Potentially....but our previous one...
...was long gone.
The list position we found ourselves in was a combination of the efforts of both. You can't have one without the other. And two injury hit and disrupted seasons later you want the one left gone.
Crash mentioned 2002 but there was another injury hit season in 2014 when many of our best players including Judd and Kreuzer missed big chunks....and Robinson and Garlett went off the rails. The brains trust at the time decided we needed a rebuild and the incoming list manager cut the list and sent the club into oblivion.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 20, 2025, 03:55:58 pm
The list position we found ourselves in was a combination of the efforts of both. You can't have one without the other. And two injury hit and disrupted seasons later you want the one left gone.
Crash mentioned 2002 but there was another injury hit season in 2014 when many of our best players including Judd and Kreuzer missed big chunks....and Robinson and Garlett went off the rails. The brains trust at the time decided we needed a rebuild and the incoming list manager cut the list and sent the club into oblivion.
Hang on, we can't judge the current crop for years, but we can give them kudos for piggybacking on the previous guys efforts within a couple years??
Geez these goal posts are moving so often i don't even know which way i'm kicking now!
From a previous list....these players were NOT SOS's from 2023.....
Hewett Saad Cerra Acres Docherty - Before SOS Cripps - Before SOS O. Hollands Motlop Jordan Boyd Cincotta
From that list, 2 are not by either. 1 is already delisted 2 are on the outs (Boyd and Acres) ...and Motlop was rumoured to be on the way out to PA this past trade period (Durdin got booted instead).
So yeah, SOS's team.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 20, 2025, 04:04:12 pm
Hang on! You can't have it both ways. You can't say 2023 is SOS's team and then in the next breath say Austin has had six years. The only one moving goal posts around is your good self. ::)
All list managers build on their predecessors list to some extent. Cripps and Docherty were part of that for Silvagni so was Ed Curnow You can't just dismiss the players that Austin added for 2023. And the real fruits of Austin's tenure are yet to hit their peak.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 20, 2025, 05:23:35 pm
So are you saying our list manager had built a side capable of winning a flag :D :D
Potentially....but our previous one...
cant praise sos and condemn Austin when Saad, acres and cerra were the needle movers for us in 2023 and all of them were brought in by Austin. Could argue Hewett as well but we'll call him a dead heat with Kennedy.
They all had nothing to do with sos.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 20, 2025, 06:02:53 pm
Hang on! You can't have it both ways. You can't say 2023 is SOS's team and then in the next breath say Austin has had six years. The only one moving goal posts around is your good self. ::)
All list managers build on their predecessors list to some extent. Cripps and Docherty were part of that for Silvagni so was Ed Curnow You can't just dismiss the players that Austin added for 2023. And the real fruits of Austin's tenure are yet to hit their peak.
lol.....i'm trying to follow YOUR rules and you won't let me.
If i'm trying to follow my rules, you wont let me.
Why am i not surprised.
Current list management team is infallable. Now i see the light. ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 20, 2025, 07:16:26 pm
You can follow any rules you like to make up. ;) I don't control your posting.
But it's all pretty futile You're not going to change my mind I'm not going to change yours
I think we've both exhausted any arguments. We seem to go over the same points over and over....across a number of threads I'm not convinced by any of your arguments, although I can see the points you're trying to make. I just don't agree with them. I just see them as worst case....with little regard given to the issues that have impacted the club's performance the last two years. You're obviously not convinced by any of mine.
You think we'll be worse I think we'll be the same or better
Injuries will play a part. Depth will play a part. Luck will play a part. Development of young players will play a part. How we cover our losses will play a part. How the new players gel will play a part. Off field issues may play a part.
There are enough variables there that either one of us could end up right. So it's over to the players to determine the outcome.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: crashlander on December 21, 2025, 05:18:52 pm
I note that we were rated as third most affected by injury to senior players in 2025, as just posted on afl.com.au. That in a season where we were a quantum leap better than what we were in 2024.
Now, if we can improve by the same amount in 2026, then maybe we'll have enough ammunition to argue about our list management properly. Certainly, we should play closer to our potential with a fitter list.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 21, 2025, 05:49:45 pm
I note that we were rated as third most affected by injury to senior players in 2025, as just posted on afl.com.au. That in a season where we were a quantum leap better than what we were in 2024.
Now, if we can improve by the same amount in 2026, then maybe we'll have enough ammunition to argue about our list management properly. Certainly, we should play closer to our potential with a fitter list.
That is about the most backwards way i've ever seen to calculate 'injuries'.
For instance, if Cripps got injured and missed the year, he wouldn't finish in the top 5 coaches votes, thus wouldn't be included in the list. The more injured you are, the less games you play, the less chance of getting you in the coaches votes meaning the less 'important' you are. Bollocks.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 21, 2025, 06:36:59 pm
We actually agree on something. ;D
If you're not in it you can't win it. Walsh must have made some impression in his 14 games Weitering little in his 23. Is Weitering injured a bigger loss than Cerra? Coaches votes are also affected by the performance of the team If the team suffers a loss, the number of players in the Coaches votes will be less than if the side wins. There were probably half a dozen games where Carlton players wouldn't even have figured in the votes.
Edit: Just had a quick scan of the votes. (Quick scan- so I may have missed some votes) There were several games where Carlton players didn't get votes. Hewett polled in 10 games and nearly doubled the votes of any other Carlton player (56) Cripps polled in 8 (for 27 votes) Cerra (27 votes) De Koning (31), Walsh ( 34) and Weitering (22) all polled in five games.
As a tool to assess the impact and the effect of injuries I'm struggling to exactly understand the point they're trying to make.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Blue Moon on December 23, 2025, 11:48:48 am
In the draft and trading period, Silvagni, TDK, Durdin and Curnow left, Docherty retired and Fantasia, Binns, Lemmey and Cinotta were delisted as well as either E.Hollands or White. This means ten players went out of the playing list and they were replaced by Ainsworth, Florent, Hayward, Reidy and Chesser, with Dean, Ison and Byrne Drafted. On top of this Smith and Newman were unavailable due to injury and are available this season. The question is, "Are the ten players who are available this year better than than ten players who have left?" To my mind at the top end, losing TDK and Curnow will be a loss, but overall I think this year's list is in better shape than what it was last year. What we won't know until the season starts proper is who has improved, who has dropped off and what injuries we ill have. I think we did alright in this years draft and trade period considering the hand we were dealt, And at this point of time we have ,our draft capital available for next year is greater what we would normally be entitled to. This the first time I can remember this happening. In the past we have always traded away future draft picks so next year we will be in a position to make a real charge at the draft. The challenge for us is to get out of that dead zone of finishing seventh to twelfth.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 23, 2025, 07:00:09 pm
In the draft and trading period, Silvagni, TDK, Durdin and Curnow left, Docherty retired and Fantasia, Binns, Lemmey and Cinotta were delisted as well as either E.Hollands or White. This means ten players went out of the playing list and they were replaced by Ainsworth, Florent, Hayward, Reidy and Chesser, with Dean, Ison and Byrne Drafted. On top of this Smith and Newman were unavailable due to injury and are available this season. The question is, "Are the ten players who are available this year better than than ten players who have left?" To my mind at the top end, losing TDK and Curnow will be a loss, but overall I think this year's list is in better shape than what it was last year. What we won't know until the season starts proper is who has improved, who has dropped off and what injuries we ill have. I think we did alright in this years draft and trade period considering the hand we were dealt, And at this point of time we have ,our draft capital available for next year is greater what we would normally be entitled to. This the first time I can remember this happening. In the past we have always traded away future draft picks so next year we will be in a position to make a real charge at the draft. The challenge for us is to get out of that dead zone of finishing seventh to twelfth.
TDK aside, the others all had to go. Curnow's attidude stunk the joint up, SOS wanted a pay and Daddy was waiting to give it to him (probably to help out with legal fees). Doc and Orazio were finished, Durdin is injury prone, Lemmey lacked the drive to be an AFL player, Binns is a VFL player, Hollands needed a kick in the ass and I do he wins another crack. Ive heard Cincotta's hip was a lot worse than was made out. White is unlucky but his position is overstocked. I think we are better structurally with the ins.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Baggers on December 23, 2025, 08:11:29 pm
In the draft and trading period, Silvagni, TDK, Durdin and Curnow left, Docherty retired and Fantasia, Binns, Lemmey and Cinotta were delisted as well as either E.Hollands or White. This means ten players went out of the playing list and they were replaced by Ainsworth, Florent, Hayward, Reidy and Chesser, with Dean, Ison and Byrne Drafted. On top of this Smith and Newman were unavailable due to injury and are available this season. The question is, "Are the ten players who are available this year better than than ten players who have left?" To my mind at the top end, losing TDK and Curnow will be a loss, but overall I think this year's list is in better shape than what it was last year. What we won't know until the season starts proper is who has improved, who has dropped off and what injuries we ill have. I think we did alright in this years draft and trade period considering the hand we were dealt, And at this point of time we have ,our draft capital available for next year is greater what we would normally be entitled to. This the first time I can remember this happening. In the past we have always traded away future draft picks so next year we will be in a position to make a real charge at the draft. The challenge for us is to get out of that dead zone of finishing seventh to twelfth.
TDK aside, the others all had to go. Curnow's attidude stunk the joint up, SOS wanted a pay and Daddy was waiting to give it to him (probably to help out with legal fees). Doc and Orazio were finished, Durdin is injury prone, Lemmey lacked the drive to be an AFL player, Binns is a VFL player, Hollands needed a kick in the ass and I do he wins another crack. Ive heard Cincotta's hip was a lot worse than was made out. White is unlucky but his position is overstocked. I think we are better structurally with the ins.
GTC old son, I've said it before and I'll say it again... you have an ability to carve it to the bone. Spot on.
Yep, we are structurally better with the ins... but the proof of the pudding still remains in the eating. Bring on 2026.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 23, 2025, 10:56:33 pm
TDK aside, the others all had to go. Curnow's attidude stunk the joint up, SOS wanted a pay and Daddy was waiting to give it to him (probably to help out with legal fees). Doc and Orazio were finished, Durdin is injury prone, Lemmey lacked the drive to be an AFL player, Binns is a VFL player, Hollands needed a kick in the ass and I do he wins another crack. Ive heard Cincotta's hip was a lot worse than was made out. White is unlucky but his position is overstocked. I think we are better structurally with the ins.
GTC old son, I've said it before and I'll say it again... you have an ability to carve it to the bone. Spot on.
Yep, we are structurally better with the ins... but the proof of the pudding still remains in the eating. Bring on 2026.
Perhaps I could have added "on paper" after structurally better. As you say, proof is in the pudding but I have this optimism about about 2026.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Baggers on December 24, 2025, 07:42:07 am
Perhaps I could have added "on paper" after structurally better. As you say, proof is in the pudding but I have this optimism about about 2026.
Yes, it will be "on paper" until we take on the Swans and the key will be whether our new look forward line can capitalise on the multiple avenues to goal we now have.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: madbluboy on December 24, 2025, 11:19:56 am
Sportsbet premiership odds
5th Sydney $10 11th StKilda $21 12th Carlton $41
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: northernblue on December 24, 2025, 11:56:34 am
I'd be curious to see the odds at the end of 2023.
Sportsbet had:
Collingwood - $5 Brisbane - $6.50 Melbourne - $7 Carlton - $8 Greater Western Sydney - $9 Port Adelaide - $10 Adelaide - $15 Geelong - $15 Sydney - $15 Western Bulldogs - $21 St Kilda - $26 Fremantle - $41 Gold Coast - $41 Essendon - $51 Richmond - $51 Hawthorn - $81 North Melbourne - $251 West Coast - $251
Probably not the best way to predict a team's fortunes ::)
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 24, 2025, 12:45:14 pm
Those odds are about right....for now. Sporting odds at the moment are just a snapshot in time. The smart punter wouldn't be betting until he sees the teams in action The gambler would be having a speculative bet on some of the teams at longer odds now. Those odds will probably be different after the end of the preseason games and significantly different mid-season 2026.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: PaulP on December 24, 2025, 12:54:58 pm
Collingwood - $5 Brisbane - $6.50 Melbourne - $7 Carlton - $8 Greater Western Sydney - $9 Port Adelaide - $10 Adelaide - $15 Geelong - $15 Sydney - $15 Western Bulldogs - $21 St Kilda - $26 Fremantle - $41 Gold Coast - $41 Essendon - $51 Richmond - $51 Hawthorn - $81 North Melbourne - $251 West Coast - $251
Probably not the best way to predict a team's fortunes ::)
Thanks. At this point in time, those 2026 odds are mostly for entertainment purposes IMO.
Humans will never tire of trying to predict the future.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 24, 2025, 02:33:35 pm
One of the surprising things about the odds at this stage is that St Kilda shades us by just the one line of betting. I'd have thought they would be higher. They may have been a month ago, with their new recruits, but with players like DeKoning, Silvagni and also Max King having interrupted pre-seasons it's probably made a few people a bit wary of committing until they see how they recover. It's variables like that which will have premiership odds move around a bit in the months ahead.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: tonyo on December 24, 2025, 02:52:00 pm
I'm just as surprised that Sydney is listed at $10. I don't think they are anywhere near that level.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: kruddler on December 24, 2025, 03:02:19 pm
Here is a look at the betting this time a year ago....
Pointsbet
TAB
Sportsbet
Ladbrokes
Brisbane ($6)
Brisbane ($7)
Brisbane ($8)
Brisbane ($7)
GWS ($8)
Hawthorn ($8)
Hawthorn ($8)
Hawthorn ($8)
Hawthorn ($8.50)
Carlton ($9)
Carlton ($9)
Carlton ($9)
Sydney ($10)
Sydney ($9)
Collingwood ($9)
Sydney ($9)
Carlton ($10)
GWS ($9)
Geelong ($9)
GWS ($9)
Collingwood ($10)
Geelong ($10)
GWS ($9)
Collingwood ($9)
Geelong ($11)
Collingwood ($10)
Sydney ($10)
Geelong ($10)
Western Bulldogs ($11)
Fremantle ($11)
Fremantle ($12)
Western Bulldogs ($12)
Fremantle ($14)
Western Bulldogs ($12)
Western Bulldogs ($13)
Fremantle ($13)
Port Adelaide ($17)
Port Adelaide ($17)
Port Adelaide ($15)
Port Adelaide ($15)
Essendon ($26)
Melbourne ($26)
Melbourne ($21)
Melbourne ($26)
Melbourne ($26)
St Kilda ($34)
Adelaide ($26)
Adelaide ($29)
Adelaide ($34)
Adelaide ($34)
Essendon ($41)
Gold Coast ($41)
St Kilda ($41)
Gold Coast ($41)
Gold Coast ($41)
Essendon ($51)
Gold Coast ($41)
Essendon ($51)
St Kilda ($41)
St Kilda ($51)
North Melbourne ($151)
North Melbourne ($101)
North Melbourne ($81)
North Melbourne ($101)
West Coast ($151)
West Coast ($101)
West Coast ($101)
West Coast ($101)
Richmond ($501)
Richmond ($151)
Richmond ($151)
Richmond ($101)
Now whats changed in the meantime??
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: DJC on December 24, 2025, 03:15:21 pm
Okay well let's have a look at what harpooned the betting agencies predictions for the Bluebaggers in season 2025.
1. Injuries. Everyone had injuries to deal with in season 2025... even Brisvegas. But for a fragile side like ours, they hurt more. 2. Distractions. Internal distractions. TDK, JSOS & Charles' speculation throughout the year. Distractions turned to disruptions. 3. Leadership. Let's be kind and say, leadership 'issues' ie coaching, footy department and MC. 4. Game plan. This dovetails back into leadership. Vossy, to his credit, admitted at the JNM that he let us down in season 2025. He wasn't alone. 5. Offensive skills, or the lack thereof. Our spread, carry and midfield/forward line connection was ...oh dear! And this, again, dovetails back into leadership and game plan.
Roll all that together and you have your answer as to why we didn't fulfill the betting agencies predictions.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Thryleon on December 25, 2025, 10:37:18 am
And the betting agencies only use exposed form and trending patterns. It would take some doing for us to look like premiership contenders, but using betting odds is fraught with danger. I.e. hawthorn in 2024 were no where but they were arguably the most dangerous looking side back end of the season. Collingwood were polar opposite in 2025.
Title: Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Post by: Lods on December 25, 2025, 10:59:24 am
On a positive note... They had Adelaide at around our estimated finishing position for 2026 (12-13)...and they finished top of the ladder. Off to the top we go and hopefully do better than Adelaide in the finals. :D