Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: shawny on March 13, 2026, 10:26:00 am
Title: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: shawny on March 13, 2026, 10:26:00 am
Time to call a spade a spade - the current list and coach are not remotely capable of getting us cup 17. The longest ever rebuild has failed. No more trying to polish a turd. The list needs another massive overhaul and IMO we have few locks for the next tilt at a flag if you take off the blue glasses.
Apart from Weitering, Jagga, Walsh, O'Farrell, Dean, Cowan and Haywood and maybe Harry the rest are either going to be too old, are not talented enough or haven't seen enough of to make a fair assessment on. The issue is there is little in the remaining group with real trade value (maybe Cripps) so we have to go back to the draft, which means more pain before 'hopefully' bearing fruit.
Finally, clean out the current useless coaching group out and bring in a new group who tactically know the modern game.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Professer E on March 13, 2026, 10:49:30 am
Testify brother
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Lods on March 13, 2026, 10:52:11 am
With Tasmania coming in the Draft won't bring us a lot of joy.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: PaulP on March 13, 2026, 10:57:48 am
I think if we look back to our last great run, the 2nd half of 2023, there was no coaching change, nor was there a list manager change, nor list changes. What changed was more on the mental side - players committed to each other, committed to the club, and getting in the right head space. If we can replicate this experience, it will go a long way to getting back up the ladder, and faster than digging in the same hole over and over again, which has up till now achieved a mixed improvement.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Baggers on March 13, 2026, 11:40:41 am
I think if we look back to our last great run, the 2nd half of 2023, there was no coaching change, nor was there a list manager change, nor list changes. What changed was more on the mental side - players committed to each other, committed to the club, and getting in the right head space. If we can replicate this experience, it will go a long way to getting back up the ladder, and faster than digging in the same hole over and over again, which has up till now achieved a mixed improvement.
Yep, that was fascinating. That run of great wins came shortly after the players went to Camp Curnow... no coaches.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: kruddler on March 13, 2026, 01:18:48 pm
With Tasmania coming in the Draft won't bring us a lot of joy.
Potentially.
I cant remember if the rules are set in stone or not, but i believe part of the deal is that tassie must trade away some of their early picks/ concessions.
This is where we can try and get a leg up.
Trade away a 30yo Harry and get a top 3 pick.....or trades of that ilk.
It SHOULD make it a little bit easier to get top picks.
Now whether you use those picks on kids or other established talent is a later debate, but getting the picks should be a good start.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Lods on March 13, 2026, 02:00:30 pm
With Tasmania coming in the Draft won't bring us a lot of joy.
Potentially.
I cant remember if the rules are set in stone or not, but i believe part of the deal is that tassie must trade away some of their early picks/ concessions.
This is where we can try and get a leg up.
Trade away a 30yo Harry and get a top 3 pick.....or trades of that ilk.
It SHOULD make it a little bit easier to get top picks.
Now whether you use those picks on kids or other established talent is a later debate, but getting the picks should be a good start.
True... It's probably a question as to what our 'capital' looks like at the end of 2027 and that;s bit of an unknown.
Cowan is one name that is often linked to Tassie. How he goes over the next two seasons would determine his worth. We may want to keep him and he might want to stay.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 13, 2026, 02:54:17 pm
2023 did us more harm than good imho, it was a false dawn that allowed the club to continue on the same road to nowhere. We are not an innovative club but more of a reactive club and like a mug investor usually late to the party when the big money has been made and in our case are trying to play catchup to the modern game with still an old list(6th in the league). There doesnt seem to be a long term plan just a reactive change of direction every year or when the media decide we are no good again and we need to appease the critics. Unfortunately Shawny is probably right and we will need another cleanout of sorts and thats going to be difficult with Tassie commanding the draft and probably the trade period with their extra money to tempt off contract players. Cripps and Harry are players who I would look to cash in on while they still have some value and I think both need a change of scenery anyway for their own careers...Harry in particular might give us a good return if he was interested in Tassie as a good place to make some extra money.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Thryleon on March 13, 2026, 07:06:08 pm
2023 did us more harm than good imho, it was a false dawn that allowed the club to continue on the same road to nowhere. We are not an innovative club but more of a reactive club and like a mug investor usually late to the party when the big money has been made and in our case are trying to play catchup to the modern game with still an old list(6th in the league). There doesnt seem to be a long term plan just a reactive change of direction every year or when the media decide we are no good again and we need to appease the critics. Unfortunately Shawny is probably right and we will need another cleanout of sorts and thats going to be difficult with Tassie commanding the draft and probably the trade period with their extra money to tempt off contract players. Cripps and Harry are players who I would look to cash in on while they still have some value and I think both need a change of scenery anyway for their own careers...Harry in particular might give us a good return if he was interested in Tassie as a good place to make some extra money.
I think we went contested and pretty much everyone went the other way. For once we bucked the trend but it didnt yield the result.
Im not dissapointed in it, but sos rebuild just flat failed.
Even now, how many players he recruited left, and most of them wouldnt be playing if they hadn't been recruited by him again.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: PaulP on March 13, 2026, 07:07:09 pm
We've had more clean outs than a standard room at a Bed and Breakfast. If you compare the filth levels of those rooms with our fluctuating fortunes over the last 20/25 years, you'd be right to think that both metaphorically and literally, clean outs are a bit of a scam and promise more than they deliver.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 13, 2026, 07:08:53 pm
Cody, Jagga, Dean, Lord, HOF, Cowan led by Walsh and Weiters (for a few years) is our future. We need HOK to come on and need to draft a few more. Fear for the Hollands, the Campos and Moir.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: tonyo on March 15, 2026, 07:49:52 pm
Need some running half backs who can break the lines. Badly.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: kruddler on March 15, 2026, 07:51:20 pm
Agreed, run is vastly over-rated if you can't hit a target or the goals at the end of it.
I'd rather a player who can hit a team-mate on the HFF from HBF, than a player who runs to the wing and hits up an opponent in our F50.
Good kicks can move the ball quickly in any direction, runners aren't such a benefit if they run sideways.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Thryleon on March 20, 2026, 09:31:05 pm
Im watching the Doggies vs adelaide, and whilst im not sure what changes we can and should make, I dont understand how teams like the Doggies can keep their side together, yet every 8 years or so we end up with an exodus.
Helps you dont chop and change coach all that much, but we change direction like a weather vane.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: DJC on March 20, 2026, 09:54:13 pm
Im watching the Doggies vs adelaide, and whilst im not sure what changes we can and should make, I dont understand how teams like the Doggies can keep their side together, yet every 8 years or so we end up with an exodus.
Helps you dont chop and change coach all that much, but we change direction like a weather vane.
False perception!
The Bulldogs have stuck fat with Beveridge, but they’ve turned their list over as much as we have over the last few seasons.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Thryleon on March 20, 2026, 09:57:51 pm
Im watching the Doggies vs adelaide, and whilst im not sure what changes we can and should make, I dont understand how teams like the Doggies can keep their side together, yet every 8 years or so we end up with an exodus.
Helps you dont chop and change coach all that much, but we change direction like a weather vane.
False perception!
The Bulldogs have stuck fat with Beveridge, but they’ve turned their list over as much as we have over the last few seasons.
Maybe, but I started wondering when they lost someone high profile to a competitor and im only coming in with a very much finished Luke dahlhaus.
And Josh dunkley.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 20, 2026, 10:04:02 pm
The Bulldogs have stuck fat with Beveridge, but they’ve turned their list over as much as we have over the last few seasons.
Maybe, but I started wondering when they lost someone high profile to a competitor and im only coming in with a very much finished Luke dahlhaus.
And Josh dunkley.
Without any knowledge of the WB, it would appear the environment with Bevo and Grant was extremely toxic. Since Grant has gone, it would appear they have been reinvigorated. Its amazing what happens when there is clean air for everyone.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Thryleon on March 20, 2026, 10:11:28 pm
Let me put this to you another way.
Is there a team that consistently has lost the games premier forwards like we have?
Fevola, betts, waite, curnow. All in what, 17 years?
Waite's not in the same hemisphere as the rest, but the point remains that somehow we lose high profile players who are genuine stars of the competition somehow.
Ive left Josh Kennedy out of it because we had to give up something to get Judd.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: northernblue on March 20, 2026, 11:17:06 pm
Stop giving your rosary beads such a working over
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: shawny on March 20, 2026, 11:46:10 pm
Is there a team that consistently has lost the games premier forwards like we have?
How about Tom Boyd, Liam Jones, Jamarra Ugle-Hagan, Shaun Higgins, Caleb Daniel, Ryan Griffin, Josh Hill, Jarrad Grant, Jake Stringer?
As well as Callan Ward, Bailey Smith, Jack Macrae, Lewis Young, etc
are you seriously putting Lewis young in with the likes of Eddie betts?
Bailey smith is the only one of those players that id put in the right company. Ward and griffen too, but they arent the games star forwards, and left that long ago now it was when the giants were fledgling. At that time we had tuohy and henderson leave but i dont put them in this conversation because why would you? jamarra may never reach the dizzy heights scripted for him, sub 70 games played at the bulldogs and with sam darcy half fid them a favour as they had the lucury of seeing him go but perceptions are funny and perhaps mine is a bit off.
Even so, this trend of departures that we suffer with, just drives me spare. Perhaps its a stability issue, perhaps something else but top draft picks, walk. Last year we lost tdk, jsos and Charlie all in one go all in or around the prime of their careers.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Lods on March 21, 2026, 07:46:06 am
How about Tom Boyd, Liam Jones, Jamarra Ugle-Hagan, Shaun Higgins, Caleb Daniel, Ryan Griffin, Josh Hill, Jarrad Grant, Jake Stringer?
As well as Callan Ward, Bailey Smith, Jack Macrae, Lewis Young, etc
are you seriously putting Lewis young in with the likes of Eddie betts?
I was more surprised at the first group of players. That's more like a mental health waiting room. :o They've had some troubled souls pass through their club.
I think the problem with departing players is down to a number of issues.
Success is at the root of the problem. A lack of success and not being able to see it in the near future is enough for players in their prime to jump ship. During their playing years the club is, for many, just a place of work. And if you're not completely satisfied with the workplace it's natural to look at options. Jack Silvagni is an example of that...who would ever have thought. Players often grow up supporting other clubs. Their commitment to a club only starts from the beginning of their playing time. In many cases the bonds they form with teammates is stonger than their 'love' of club. That's something that comes later, and while it develops into a life long commitment it's a little different from most supporters. That has been a lifetime commitment. We find it harder to understand why players want to move.
Lack of success brings frustration. Teammates and coaches may start to question the commitment of others. That causes division and conflict. Some look at the years they have left and want to be part of a side challenging for a flag.
But away from success... There may be disappointment with the roles they are asked to play or how they are being used. It's easy to say 'suck it up''but if you feel that you're being used in a role that doesn't give you the opportunity to play your best football that makes it harder to get enthused. If that is an ongoing issue and another club sees the value, and offers (as an example) more midfield time. That's pretty tempting.
And of course there is the money side of things. How many would have turned down the DeKoning offer? Creating the environment where players don't want to leave is not an easy task. It's made a lot easier though by sustained success...and importantly stability, which seems to have eluded us for the last 30 years.
The thing about stability is that it's not something you can demand. It needs to be created. Just holding the line and not making changes when they are required doesn't add to stability. It's a band-aid solution.
A competent CEO and head of football with a shared vision is a good starting point. Lets see how it goes.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: LP on March 21, 2026, 08:56:00 am
When a player leaves is it a departure or an excision?
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Lods on March 21, 2026, 09:04:33 am
When a player leaves is it a departure or an excision?
We've probably seen examples of both. ;)
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Blue Moon on March 21, 2026, 10:10:40 am
I have a glass half full view on our list but I think we need a Van Rooyen type key forward and a dominant ruckman. Players with pace, can hit targets and don't fumble are also good to recruit.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: LP on March 21, 2026, 11:01:16 am
Players with pace, can hit targets and don't fumble are also good to recruit.
imho, this is key to our slower list performing, when we start double grabs we lose the time and space that we struggled to create in the first place. We play like rabbits in the headlights more than any other team.
It only takes one or two players to make a difference, the inverse of the Swans losing Heeney and Gulden. Some are prone to tell you we need a slash and burn, doing that is utter stupidity. We just need one or two competitive types who can keep up with play and be clean with the footy, and the change will be dramatic.
If we have everybody, coach, players and assistants entering every game like it's a walk to the gallows, held at gunpoint to perform, improvement will never happen.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Baggers on March 21, 2026, 11:38:45 am
I have a glass half full view on our list but I think we need a Van Rooyen type key forward and a dominant ruckman. Players with pace, can hit targets and don't fumble are also good to recruit.
Likewise, BM, I reckon most of our list is in good shape.
Our major issue is our midfield/wings. Too slow, too predictable, too many similar/ same types. Thank the gods for Jagga... but he's only one skinny kid with a great footy IQ and silky skills. I still believe Kemp should be given midfield time to see if he can add something... he is hard at it and not slow.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Thryleon on March 21, 2026, 11:39:45 am
What im high lighting is until we address the revolving door of why people want out, we arent going to achieve much.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: cookie2 on March 21, 2026, 11:44:45 am
Our major issue is our midfield/wings. Too slow, too predictable, too many similar/ same types. Thank the gods for Jagga... but he's only one skinny kid with a great footy IQ and silky skills.
Agree wholeheartedly on this.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Baggers on March 21, 2026, 12:32:34 pm
What im high lighting is until we address the revolving door of why people want out, we arent going to achieve much.
Sorry, 3 Leos, but I do not believe we have a revolving door of people who want out. The only best 25 or so blokes who wanted out were TDK and Charles. Nothing we could do about TDK considering the massive financial from the Aints to set him up for life.
Yes, we've learned that it was not ideal in the locker room last year, but I'm more than confident that any ructions are being dealt with, if not already dealt with.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Lods on March 21, 2026, 12:41:04 pm
What im high lighting is until we address the revolving door of why people want out, we arent going to achieve much.
I just don't think there's an easy answer. It's not a single issue that causes people to leave. What I do feel is that Wright has spent around 12 months acting as an almost 'independent' reviewer. It's given him the opportunity to assess where he thinks changes need to be made, be that on-field or off-field.
Now to make sweeping changes all at once may be counter productive so... Make a few to start....Head of football for one. Move a few players who don't want to be part of the future. Then look at it again this year and make a few more...we can probably guess at those if things don't improve.
That gives him a base to work with over the next few seasons. The only problem with all that is...even CEOs aren't ever safe at Carlton. ;) :D
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Thryleon on March 21, 2026, 01:49:16 pm
What im high lighting is until we address the revolving door of why people want out, we arent going to achieve much.
Sorry, 3 Leos, but I do not believe we have a revolving door of people who want out. The only best 25 or so blokes who wanted out were TDK and Charles. Nothing we could do about TDK considering the massive financial from the Aints to set him up for life.
Yes, we've learned that it was not ideal in the locker room last year, but I'm more than confident that any ructions are being dealt with, if not already dealt with.
Is that right?
More want to leave us than stay recently as far as im concerned.
My thought process is we have to pay overs for average players, the few stars we have seem to face periods where they dont want or arent interested in playing for us, and then the second we get someone in demand they start floating about wanting out.
You never left an employer you were happy working for, and sometimes you leave what you consider a bad manager.
Sure players leave other clubs too, but just last season we had Charlie want out. McKay with mental health issues where ne needed a break from playing (not solely about us). Docherty pulling up stumps when he probably could get a game today (more factors there too, to do with where he saw us going and where he was at). Jsos pretty much walking out, admittedly for bigger dollars but that one is alarming. Tdk getting a godfather offer but let's face it, he wanted out as much as anything.
Is isolation all that is acceptable, but we've been here a few times over the journey. Is my point. Why do all these people want out? Why do we appear one of the few teams where this theme plays out repeatedly? You dont see a mass exodus from too many teams but at Carlton in reckon we are on number 4 since 2004. Theres something in it and it also goes back to attracting players too. People dont seem all that enthused about coming to us. We are just an option.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: DJC on March 21, 2026, 02:11:29 pm
What im high lighting is until we address the revolving door of why people want out, we arent going to achieve much.
Free agency is a powerful financial incentive to change clubs but over the last decade only two of our players have exercised free agency.
In fact, in that time only two players - Gibbs and Curnow - have sought clearances to other clubs. Tuohy, Phillips, Petrevski-Seton, Setterfield, Fisher, Kennedy and Owies were put on the trade table and Jones "retired" for philosophical reasons.
Four players wanting out over the last decade is hardly a revolving door. On the flip side, we had Ainsworth, Chesser, Reidy and Khamis all wanting to come to Carlton last off season, as well as two FS and NGA prospects nominating us. Apart from the Khamis trade not getting done, the Western Bulldogs have had seven players exercise free agency or successfully seek clearances in the last four years.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: kruddler on March 21, 2026, 02:23:44 pm
Sorry, 3 Leos, but I do not believe we have a revolving door of people who want out. The only best 25 or so blokes who wanted out were TDK and Charles. Nothing we could do about TDK considering the massive financial from the Aints to set him up for life.
Yes, we've learned that it was not ideal in the locker room last year, but I'm more than confident that any ructions are being dealt with, if not already dealt with.
Is that right?
More want to leave us than stay recently as far as im concerned.
...and i believe that last statement is the problem.
Firstly, i take it you dont mean that literally. Its clear more people re-signed with the club last year conpared to players who wanted out. On any given year about 1/3 to 1/2 your list is out of contract.
Secondly, How many players have actually wanted to leave? This year 3. We also pushed a couple.
In the last couple years, who wanted out? Keeping in mind we pushed a couple too.
Weitering signed up last year, walsh this year. They could name their price if they left, but they didn't.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Professer E on March 21, 2026, 02:38:05 pm
Touhy left for money, he wasn't traded.
I reckon most of those who left went for reason other than PP was a crap place to be. Exceptions to this were clearly Henderson + Touhy, who both couldn't F off fast enough. Waite hated the coach.
I don't want a thread to start on this, it digging up an old corpse. It's done, let's move on.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 21, 2026, 04:49:12 pm
I reckon most of those who left went for reason other than PP was a crap place to be. Exceptions to this were clearly Henderson + Touhy, who both couldn't F off fast enough. Waite hated the coach.
I don't want a thread to start on this, it digging up an old corpse. It's done, let's move on.
Touhy hated Boltons guts, he said as in a recent interview (maybe even a book?). He couldnt get out fast enough because of that failed relationship.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: laj on March 21, 2026, 04:50:12 pm
Voss showed he hadn't and get left behind with an outdated game plan. Unlike others, I think our list isn't too bad but not the right person to to drive it. For years our attitude hasn't been consistently good, generally poor. We can tend to give up pretty easily. When all that happens people everywhere tend to revert to "poor list" when it's not always the case. We've generally been a bad club inside and out for 25 years, bar some odd years, especially under Ratten. Doesn't matter how good your list is, that situation means you do no good.
We started with a rebuild then they gave us Bolton, Teague and Voss to take charge of it. A Hardwick-type may have been different. He got 2 sides with ordinary attitudes too fire brilliantly.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: cookie2 on March 21, 2026, 04:56:33 pm
Agree on Hardwick Jim. He seems to know the right formula imho.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 21, 2026, 05:16:22 pm
Voss showed he hadn't and get left behind with an outdated game plan. Unlike others, I think our list isn't too bad but not the right person to to drive it. For years our attitude hasn't been consistently good, generally poor. We can tend to give up pretty easily. When all that happens people everywhere tend to revert to "poor list" when it's not always the case. We've generally been a bad club inside and out for 25 years, bar some odd years, especially under Ratten. Doesn't matter how good your list is, that situation means you do no good.
We started with a rebuild then they gave us Bolton, Teague and Voss to take charge of it. A Hardwick-type may have been different. He got 2 sides with ordinary attitudes too fire brilliantly.
Skill level has always been an issue and the brand we play is terrible to watch. The gap is getting wider between the best and worst teams imo in terms of quality of football being played.
Title: Re: Carltons list changes needed to chase flag 17
Post by: laj on March 21, 2026, 07:09:03 pm
Voss showed he hadn't and get left behind with an outdated game plan. Unlike others, I think our list isn't too bad but not the right person to to drive it. For years our attitude hasn't been consistently good, generally poor. We can tend to give up pretty easily. When all that happens people everywhere tend to revert to "poor list" when it's not always the case. We've generally been a bad club inside and out for 25 years, bar some odd years, especially under Ratten. Doesn't matter how good your list is, that situation means you do no good.
We started with a rebuild then they gave us Bolton, Teague and Voss to take charge of it. A Hardwick-type may have been different. He got 2 sides with ordinary attitudes too fire brilliantly.
Skill level has always been an issue and the brand we play is terrible to watch. The gap is getting wider between the best and worst teams imo in terms of quality of football being played.
Skills level can be a result of attitude too. Watching GWS tonight, who usually use it well, but tonight awful and dysfunctional. Reflects how they are switched on. I'm sure most of our blokes at least don't come to the club as poor users but we seem to turn into that way. It's like catching a virus, except they catch the poor user syndrome. Remember in 2023. We went from poor users to good users in a matter of a week after the Ed Curnow camp. That was attitude.
Right now our brand of footy is horrible. The Richmond game made my eyes bleed watching it.