On Good Friday. :( At least it isn't a Thursday!
We get one less day than North to prepare, which sounds like our season.
I am not looking forward to this after today's capitulation. North have some talent.
They will do us like a dinner. Thank goodness I'll be away
A week (5 days) is a long time in footy. Expect the unexpected. The NM Ess game was terrible. We have also been terrible so we are a chance.
Try something different....start slow and finish not as slowly. ;)
Lose this game and it will be Voss's last, he will not survive a loss like this.
Wont happen (sacking the coach). Every loss attention turns to our coach. My attention goes elsewhere.
An exorcist would help us way more than yet another regime change.
The entire AFL world, inside and outside the 4 walls, is perfectly aware of the 2nd half issues. If it was that easy to fix, I'm sure it would've been sorted long ago.
Agree watched that game too and it was horrible even worse than us vs the Dees which was a poor standard by both teams. We are lucky we are playing Nth who are only a little better than Essendon and who will be without Xerri.
Id expect a response after todays debacle but its probably not going to mean much given it will probably be another grinding terrible game to watch but Id like to think we are better than Nth.
A win actually means very little for us in the big picture, but a loss will spell finis for Voss.
After l was downright annoyed that we appointed this clown in the first place, I was supportive of him staying to maintain some semblence of stability....but this bloke is f.....g clueless, has shown himself to be clueless for a long time and has to go.
Following him out the door should be a heap of players who simply don't GAF. Where's any form of leadership? JUST CRICKETS
We have a play safe mentality that allows a naturally aggressive player like Kosi to turn even our talls to submission.
This is not new, we've had it for years, the cure will be players who make the rest of our list uncomfortable.
Our situation is quite ironic given the way our coach played, he was borderline murderous in his unrelenting attack on the footy and the poor bastard is trying to coach a squad full passive aggressive.
It will be interesting to see what happens regarding Xerri, because he is one of the prime bully boys at Norp, and what a coach like Clarkson will do if Xerri is absent.
If Norf go the hammer turn it into battle of Britain the return. It's payback time.
Line in the sand time. If you don't like it ....off, clean out your locker and hand in ya keys
Folks are angry at where we find ourselves and the inability to prevent teams overwhelming us despite positive starts
We're going to be this weeks talking point on all forms of media. ::) ::)
Voss's future is a legitimate discussion point but can we keep this thread for a discussion of the game ahead, our chances and potential selections and discuss the coaching in this thread highlighed below.
Just to prevent parallel discussions taking place.
https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=5734.0
Modern footballers do not have it in them and they will just pack up and leave if you tell them to bring the gloves, which is exactly what I was thinking we need but we do not have any players of that type.
You can see Clarkson slowly moulding Norp into a more brutal side, although without the skills they need at the moment, even so you could see the impact of that against the bruise free CheatsFC. It was a shizen game but at the same time never in doubt.
I'm assuming Xerri will be absent, but expect Larkey and Zuhaar to resume business as usual.
Norf think we're soft - and at least mentally we are. We do have a number of shirkers and I reckon failure to totally commit as a footballer to the club renders you unreliable and "soft". They're facts and opinions that people don't like but until we accept this we're going backwards.
I reckon there weren't too many Carlton supporters in the stands yesterday who thought when we went 40 odd points up that "We've got this!"
I certainly didn't watching at home.
It's become an expectation for supporters, and it seems the players too that we can't maintain it for four quarters.
What we need more than anything else is a 'circuit breaker' game that shows us all that it isn't inevitable we'll be overrun.
Start well and maintain it for four quarters and change the mindset.
It will happen eventually.
You can't dominate games for periods like we do without there being something there.
It just needs to be unlocked.
North will be under the impression that even if we get out to an early lead they can overrun us...that expectation may be their undoing.
During the second quarter I told a Melbourne supporter who was cracking the sads in the bar that they were actually getting on top and probably would come back and win. They hadn't kicked a goal yet.
The biggest concern I have is clubs are playing rope a dope against us. Lull us into a false sense of security, and then up the intensity, and once they get on top we have no answers.
Swans thought that as was proven by their interchange tactics of saving most of them for the 2nd half.
Unfortunately, its not new. Even the tigers tried it, they just didnt have the firepower to get on top. Melbourne did it effectively yesterday. Wonder if Clarko will do it. My gut is he wont. He doesnt like dropping that far behind, and will likely play shoot out football.
Nth are terrible and likely to shoot themselves in the foot even if they control the game. The Ess v Nth game was the worst I have seen this season for skills and we might not have to win it so much but Nth will lose it.
I doubt it's rope-a-dope when you go almost 10 goals down.
We had two bog standard as easy as it gets shots at goal from 35m out and b0rked both of them to let go of a 10+ goal lead! We did all the hard stuff 100% correct and f0rked up the easy finish.
But are we surprised, quite a few of us mentioned the inability to the pull the trigger in the pre-game thread. it's a headspace issue not a fitness or skill issue. Some of the same people missing easy shots from 30/35m dobbed goals from 50m.
How do we get the squad in the right headspace, somebody must see this mindset developing because it stands out like proverbials to the fans?
The best way to do it drop players who are sub-par.
I hand picked some names which included, but not limited too.....
Kemp
HOK
Chesser
Problem, is, apart from the last name there, we haven't got anybody to replace them.
Thats when we struggle to pull ourselves out of the hole we are in. We don't have the cattle to swap them out.
Look at who our better players are in the 2's
Flynn Young.....we already promoted Byrne who plays the same role at the expense of Fogarty.
Are we going to have to go back to a team of 10 small forwards simply because they are the only ones 'in form' ??
I think that works on transient issues, but we've had this fade out problem persisting across MC regimes and variety of player selections.
Off field we have new fitness, new MC, new executive but the same problem, and to me the early signs of this problem go back to the end of the Judd / sMurph era.
It can't be fitness, and we've had odd games go the other way as well, in which we've set out like slugs and come home like trains, but it's an understatement to say not often. It wasn't that long ago the media was full of argy bargy about our slow starts, with much the same playing list.
Balance seems to be the thing that is impossible for us to find.
You can drop them. Ruck Pittonet solo, with Cripps as relief ruck (or bring in Derkson, and use Lewis Young/Harry Mckay as relief ruck), Flynn Young and Jordan Boyd would be the two runners I bring in.
Players we need back in the ones ASAP
Newman
Acres
Cotters
Young is the form reserve player who should be rewarded. Maybe Williams may struggle after his knock, but id be bringing Newman in for him. Acres in for Chesser, and if Cotters isnt ready for AFL level yet, id bring in Boyd and young to replace okeefe and kemp.
We got the team balance wrong again on the weekend and tried to use numbers to nullify a Melbourne strength, when we should have just conceded Gawn was going to dominate, and go to work differently.
Given the way we are being swept aside at centre bounces as games progress, I would hope selectors bring in Ben Camporeale for some more grunt.
Didn't watch the game, but 27 disposals suggests he is running into some reasonable form.
Wade Derksen could be the obvious choice if Harry Dean with injured shoulder doesn't come up. I would hope they give Dean a good spell and allow his young body time to recover.
Maybe Kruddler we just go with who's fit and in form....drop HoK and play Flynn, he can't do any worse. Might give us a bit more run and movement instead of relying on long dump kicks to ineffective marking targets. Go with a smaller more mobile set up with Harry as the one-out target. Worked for the tigers for three flags
If we drop all the players out of form, we don't have enough players in form to replace them.
B Campo in for Williams who to appeared get injured
Derksen (as a fwd) in for either Kemp who needs a spell in the 2s to gain some form
Need another defender to come in for Dean if he misses.
HOK also needs a spell, give Ready another crack and light a fire under his feet this time.
Leave Gov fwd as he appears to be the only functioning tall.
Can they fire up Harry into some semblance of competitiveness? Feed him some angry pills for goodness sake.
HOK is hardly getting any game time, we need to better manage the bench and then maybe Pitto has a chance of competing against the likes of Gawn late in games.
Pitto is not a genuine solo ruck option against the likes of Gawn, but HOK's limited game time delivered little advantage.
I think Kemp has been disappointing, Gov has been OK, I'd be open for Kemp out Derksen in a reshuffle.
As much as I like Dean, that right foot effort was a tad embarrassing, now the opposition have seen it they will push him to his right every opportunity they get. It's going to get bad for him before it gets better.
I think HOK needs game time, if Kemp goes out I'd push HOK forward and put Derksen in D50 for Dean. HOK is also a viable tall alternative target to McKay.
Also if Xerri goes out, I think bench time could be reversed this week, with Pitto on the sidelines more and HOK rucking.
Derksen in for Kemp, Newman in for Dean...
Id probably have Harry as my second ruck, Nth are three yards quicker than we are so Id be loathe to add another slow moving player in the rotation so No to Reidy especially with Xerri out.
Flynn Young in for Chesser.
Saad in because he has pace and can hit a target but Id play him further up the ground away from a player like Curtis who is ultra dangerous and we cant have all our defenders of the rebound type.
Newman to play on Zurhaar.
Cowan on Curtis.
If our coaching dept have scouted Nth properly they will probably know that Finn OSullivan will probably tag Walsh after doing a great job on Merrett so Voss needs to find a counter or alternatives as we know that Cripps and Hewett will only be plodding after halftime and Id be playing Ainsworth more onball and if Ben Campo plays using him more in the middle.
Dean (injured) out Derksen in - Just a bit of height and weight. Thought he was good pre-season
Chesser (omitted) out Ben Campo in - Crash said he was OK in the VFL and that's better than what Chesser is producing
O'Keeffe (omitted) out Cottrell in (maybe underdone) - H to relieve Pitto when required.
Williams (injured) out Flynn Young in - Been kicking goals
Kemp (omitted) out Moir in - Not setting the football world alight in the VFL but can only be as good as Kemp who is putrid at the moment
Kemp hasn't looked the same athletically since he has come back from his knee.
I think he's moving OK, but are we seeing the difference that being a fulltime forward brings compared to a pinch hitter?
Now, week in and week out opponents will be prepared, drilled and trained to put him in the situations that expose his weakness.
AFL is not like local footy, just getting fit again isn't good enough.
Perhaps I was being harsh on HOK, after all he was at times up against one of the best ruckman to play the game
When I watched the replay about 1/2 of HOK's time on the ground was subbing for Young, Gov, Kemp or McKay.
His progress will be slow if he keeps getting used in such a fractured manner, but perhaps he is happy to do because he gets a game. Reminds me of when Cottrell started, a bits and pieces player that copped a lot of flak, but once he settled we got to see what he could do when fit.
Ignoring fitness of limitations, I think we really miss Cottrell's natural aggression.
I'm not even talking about his role, he looks slower, less agile and struggled to bend over to pick up the ball.
My opening statement was I thought he is moving OK.
But he might not look comfortable in his approach at the footy because he's being put in unfamiliar circumstances, making him hesitant.
In both our losses he's gone berserker in the last quarter and taken out one of his own, he hit the contest at speed with completely the wrong focus making him look awkward but not injured or lame.
Kemp too often caught behind Lever, who took him to school. Hopefully he learnt a lot but he looked like a defender playing forward on Sunday. No forward craft at all.
HOK also had the least game time of any Carlton player on the weekend- 44%
Chicken and egg.
Did he play the least amount of game time because he was no good?
Was he no good because he didn't get much game time?
Based on previous efforts, i'm going with the first one.
That leaves me with option 2....because we cant agree on anything at the moment :D
If it was because he was poor he won't be playing next week.
....and what if the cupboard is so bare we don't have a choice BUT to play him?
It's not...Kemp can go back, Derksen can come in, Young can go forward and Ruck.
Which is what I'd do...
or
Straight swap.
Reidy in, HOK out.
.
Dean concussion, misses 2 games
There was some suggestion Haynes had done a hamstring in the VFL but he's not appearing on the injury list. He'd be a handy in with Dean missing.
If we lose, as expected, MV won't be sacked. It's looking vey likely so far that until the bye round we may only have 1 or possibly 2 wins, but I think it will be the manner of the coming losses and whether MV continues to have zero game plan and have further disconnect from the playing group which will determine if he stays or goes after the bye. In other words, he is on borrowed time. The other factor imo is whether GW has the replacement ready to go - and I've no doubt it's something he's working on right now.
Maybe he was just managed rather than actually has an injury. Some equate going off early with injury, but given the short turnaround from last week to this week, its entirely possible they just put him on ICE after 3/4.
No 2nd ruck. Prefer a runner. No point having a slow ruck when you can have a runner in. Young or Harry can have those duties. Young forward though, yes.
Then it becomes a waste of a season if we wait until the bye. If we lose to North it should be his last. Then lets see what someone else can do with most of a full season ahead of them. Only have to finish 10th.
Someone has got the message i've been spouting for years! ;D
Cerra is back this week. Not sure if i'm happy about that, but at least it replaces Lord who we didn't replace last week.
Outside of a couple of finals when TDK did ok forward I have never seen 2 rucks work at Carlton. Can't remember the last time it was successful. Fitzpatrick/and both Jones? Nicholls and Perc? Harry and Sartori gave us good value as Sartori gave us great value up forward. We just barely saw Sartori on the park.
Can't think of much since.
Madden and Allen in 95 worked well. Was surprised we didn't stick with but it obviously didn't matter.
One or two rucks is not a tactical plan set in stone, you have to pick and choose when, in AFL no plan can be set in stone as you leave yourself exposed.
It's not different to having an extra KPP in D50 sometimes, you do it sometimes because of opposition strengths or your own weakness.
Last weekend Pitto shadowed Gawn, I think we need Pitto to push forward more as an alternate to Harry. We would not want the likes of Pitto and HOK dropping into D50 taking Gawn with them, anybody asserting a structure that causes that is a lunatic! If Pitto had been solo, that is exactly what Gawn would have done, drag him into our D50, because Pitto isn't capable of running solo off Gawn for four quarters. Gawn would have pushed deep at both ends and been largely unopposed.
In the modern game where its all about run run run.....having any amount of extra talls blokes who limit that is a curse more than a blessing.
You could accept it up forward if your 2 blokes are kicking you bags of goals between them.
But 2 blokes in the ruck when you can only ever use 1 ruck at a time, that is, there is only ever 1 ballup, 1 throw-in etc at a time.
I've done the figures while we were using SOS as our 2nd ruck.
At best, we'd get maybe 1 extra hitout to advantage a game by playing a second ruck.
The flipside is that we expect our midfielders to play an extra 50% gametime between them to compensate, clearly making them more fatigued as a result. Given they are more fatigued, their output would drop. It could drop to the point where we get less hitouts to advantage as a result negating any perceived benefit.
Now we are more setup to handle a 2nd ruck.....but if that is HOK playing there and FF and he gets 3 touches a game and spends over a half on the bench.....then output wise its even worse than playing 2 rucks.......which yields no actual benefit anyway.
If you had unlimited players on the bench, 100% you play an extra ruck.....hell, play 4!
But thats not how it works.
Yes, agree there. By the time finals came though Harry was on his own with Sticks helping out. Allan was a younger bloke then and missed out when the time came. Allan was a dangerous man up forward. When you have that then 2 rucks works alot better. Actually both Harry and Allan were good up forward. To me, that's the only time two rucks work. No good having 2 rucks if they are useless lumps when not on the ball.
Cerra better not be back at 1/4 rat power....trust is gone
Lost brother ;D ;D
https://www.facebook.com/reel/1665808964847971
The club might be getting bits and pieces wrong, but sometimes, they get things oh so right.
Kudos to all involved organising this one. Bringing in Wade's brother to present the number 47 was a nice touch.
These little snapshots are interesting, they're happening just about every week at the moment....
On the surface (and it is only a snapshot) it seems the relationship between the players and each other is strong.
It seems the relationship between the coach and players is strong.
You wonder then, about the disconnect on game day.
But I guess it is just a minute in time.
Totally agree ^
This was excellent vision and when you look across the players they all seem
Genuine in their exuberance so what is going on!?
But well done to Derks, hope he does well.
One thing i noted at the ground last week which i'm not sure if it was captured on TV.
THere was a couple of first goal kickers - Jagga and Byrne IIRC.
When each kicked their 1st goal, the entire 17 other teammates on the ground ran to congratulate them and celebrate with them. Both times.
Shows there is still a good connection (at least in part) between them.
.....or that they will get a player imposed fine if they get busted NOT celebrating with them. Which is certainly possible.
It was noticeable.
I think the group is tight.
I think some of the new recruits have shown in some of the vision that they've fitted in pretty well too.
Is it not so much a matter of gelling off field but more a case of becoming 'familiar' on-field.
You can practice sceanrios at training through the off-season and in match practices but until the season starts and you get the pressure of a 'real' game it's hard to get a handle on new team-mates strengths and weaknesses.
Things that become instinctive with teams that have played a lot of football together may take a bit of time with a team with many newbies.
Time will tell...but we have to start seeing some signs.
I just hope fans keep stuff like this in mind when the AFL Media start selling them on disunity and fractures, as it has already been tried earlier this season.
Fans are only interested in winning games and premierships, the players could be holding hands and singing Kumbaya every training session but unless it translates into wins they wont care and I doubt whether most of them believe anything coming out from behind the 4 walls of Ikon park anyway after being fed a diet of PR Spin over the years.
http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/1986405
Newman, Cerra, Boyd and Derksen in, Dean & Williams unavailable, Chesser and HOK omitted.
Newman and Boyd were our two best users off half back. Can't expect too much considering the footy they have missed but it will be a step forward.
Newman in might make a significant difference to our ability to hold a lead. Last time he played was august 2024.
Cant argue with the outs of Chesser and HOK, they need to find some form in the 2s
Nth very undermanned in the ruck so Id expect it to be very different to last game with no ruckman of the quality of Gawn to deal with and you would presume Darling will have to ruck as a part timer.
Im giving Cripps and his troops one more chance and tipping us to win as Nth even though they have won two games dont play a great brand and were nearly equally as horrible to watch as Essendon last game.
I like our inclusions and i think we can rebound and hang on for a win more based on Nth being terrible than us being brilliant and Id expect a few of our more notable players like Harry, Cripps, Hewett and Smith to have good games.
Walsh will probably get the heavy tag from OSullivan and Weitering might have his hands full with Larkey but Id expect our stoppage game with Pittonet controlling the ruck to prevail and propel us to victory.
My only concern is that the game is that hell hole for us Marvel Stadium.
Our line-up:
B: 2 Lachlan Cowan 23 Jacob Weitering 24 Nic Newman
HB: 14 Oliver Florent 47 Wade Derksen 37 Jordan Boyd
C: 20 Elijah Hollands 9 Patrick Cripps 32 Matthew Carroll
HF: 19 Will Hayward 10 Harry McKay 12 Ben Ainsworth
F: 39 Talor Byrne 17 Brodie Kemp 7 Jagga Smith
R: 27 Marc Pittonet 29 George Hewett 18 Sam Walsh
Int: 33 Lewis Young 4 Oliver Hollands 5 Adam Cerra 44 Francis Evans 11 Mitch McGovern
Em: 45 Flynn Young 42 Adam Saad 13 Blake Acres
[1] We'll miss Dean (already) and Williams, both of whom are good. I hope Wade Derkson can show his best.
[2] Boyd and Newman are good ins, as both have decent disposal.
[3] Cerra: I probably would have started him in the VFL, can I understand why we brought him in. I hope he is ready.
He was ready last week, but we thought he couldn't handle the short turn around.
[4] The ruck: I hope Pitto can win this, as it would help our midfield hugely. I haven't seen enough of the North rucks to know if the new rules help them or not.
[5] Our midfield: we really need to win here if we're to do OK. North have a really good young midfield.
[6] Our forward line. On paper, it should be better than North's defence. Can we bring the form to make it so?
our record at marvel recently is better than elsewhere from memory.
LLLLWLLWLWLLLWLLWLWLLWWWWWLWWLLLWWWLWLWWLWLLLWLLLW
Last 50 44%
LLWWWLWLWWLWLLLWLLLW
Last 20, 45%
WLLLW
Last 5 40%
LLLWLWLLLWWLWWLLLWWWLWWWLLLLWLLLLLWLWWLLLLWLWLLLLLLLLLWLLWLWLLLWLLWLWLLWWWWWLWWLLLWWWLWLWWLWLLLWLLLW
Last 100 40%
Last 100 at MCG 40% also
north outside run quick ball movement (once again like every other team) is the worry