Ready for tonight. I expect to be drowned rat by the time I get home, even though my seats are under cover. Getting to and fro will be the issue. Just hope there is enough hot water for a shower.
Tonight was a test and we failed.
We planned very poorly for the rain IMO. I stayed home because I checked my trusty metvuw charts (https://www.metvuw.com/forecast/forecast.php?type=rain®ion=victoria&noofdays=3) and it was obvious to me it was going to be drenched. Players trying to scoop up the cake of soap off the deck at full tilt (Wilson, Cowan, Cerra), players flying for high kicks (Kemp, H).
Welcome to Carlton interim coach Fraser.
They had 19 more scoring shots than us. Probably lucky it was only 64 points in the end.
Reality check for the coach.
Put it behind us and start planning for Collingwood next week.
I need a win on my birthday!
Agree, rain was a bit of a shock for our blokes who have been trying to perfect the run and carry game and didnt really have much idea about wet weather footy. Cripps wasnt a factor and this is the problem when you rely so much on one bloke to lead the way.
He's got no answer for Day, this is the 3rd or 4th time he's been touched up.
No Watson, Weddell, Battle and a few others, would have been a hell of a lot worse.
Smashed us. Didn't think we'd win but that was a smashing. God help us if it was dry.
Now that I don't have to re-schedule my flight home, if we only win 2 more may if be against the filth/scum next week and St farking killya
I thought he might do better tonight given Nash wasnt playing....
But it was all Voss
Jesus mate, you've been waiting for 7 weeks. Go crazy!!
No cripps. No Carlton.
Top 6 opposition. No Carlton.
Fraser, Voss or otherwise.
I just think Haw is the one side that we lose against before the game even starts. Has been for a long time.
Loosing George didnt help us, we could have thown Cripps fwd for longer periods if the weren't down that inside mid.
Can you let this go? It’s boring AF now and takes away from anything you otherwise say.
Clueless on how to play in the wet. And that's coaching.
Just a rabble. Passengers galore.
Worst performance for a very long time. Years.
Only positives are that the kids will learn a lot from that. Flynn gets a senior game and great goal. And we should be really fired up now for Rottingwood next Saturday night - better weather please. The inevitable loss under Frase is now out of the way. Finals appearance hysteria now paused.
Exactly as I said earlier, let it rip! Bring it on. Maybe setup a thread ?
We can redeem ourselves next week but I'm betting we don't.
Freo, Hawthorn, Geelong get smashed in recent weeks and 'it's the loss they needed to have'. We get touched up after 7 straight wins and the guy can't coach, the team is crap, no game plan etc, etc!! Shocking conditions for the first half and we didn't adapt, granted. Tried our guts out in a quarter of slug fest football when anything in the forward 50 was a bonus..... only to have the absolute wind taken out of our sails by the worst 50m penalty of the decade! A day of learning.
Riley looked okay but it was disappointing that the coach didn't trust him enough to start the final three quarters in the ruck.
We lost the game when Pitto was out: Meek dominated, giving them first use of the ball. Our mids didn't run out of the front once.
The Umpiring: I don't want to go there. There are limits to what was acceptable, and those clowns we had to tonight were far too far past them. Those decisions were unforgivable. And they gifted Hawthorn goals they didn't deserve.
We probably won't complain, but we really should.
Their skills held up under the poor conditions, while ours didn't. After that we lost confidence and they had their tails up.
Our forwards: Mitch McGovern was the only one who can put his hand up. Kemp was dreadful. H didn't do a lot.
One ruck works when it works: it didn't work tonight. Young Flynn Riley showed something, but he needs a lot more muscle to beat guys like Meek.
I thought that was a big mistake. It robbed our forward line of any height to at least compete, it meant part-timer Harry was up against a seasoned ruckman, and we were on the back foot in each quarter.
The other thing that was obvious was the difference in skill level. We went for some ridiculous handpasses and kicks that would even be difficult to execute in the dry, and turnovers killed us. Hawthorn are the best wet-weather team in the game, and put the ball into dangerous positions when going forward using wet-weather smarts. It's like our lot have never seen rain before.
Unfortunately, it seems we are still miles off the pace. Imagine if Watson, Battle, Weddle had played.
At least now we will find out if Fraser can coach - if he can get them up for next week,
Comprehensively beaten
Outmuscled-too easily brushed aside.
Outlasted-we looked pretty exhausted at the end.
Ouclassed- They're a level above us. We were missing players, but so were they.
Flynn Riley is only 22. Played his first game and probably got a bit of a lesson from Meek.
But there were signs there that he could be a pretty valuable addition with a couple more preseasons.
He was one of those that looked pretty tired at the end and there were a few occasions when he was late to the contest and sometimes didn't even contest.
But when Pittonet comes back I'd be keeping him in the side...as a second ruck/forward.
Kemp is not the answer.
Put Riley up there. It couldn't be less effective.
Our forward line was completely dysfunctional last night.
Special mention to Frankie Evans though who tried his guts out last night.
We weren't beating Hawthorn no matter who was coach.
I don't understand why Fraser’s participation in the interview process for next coach should be tethered to wins against Hawks and Collingwood. This seems like bizarre logic to me.
Just media speculation, we’ve said it many times but given the level of media saturation everyone is scrambling for an angle for relevance. We can be cynical about the media but they play an important part in maintains income for the game.
As for Fraser, he has the perfect platform for his audition assuming he wants it as has been said many times before.
Horrible conditions horrible umpiring and they played the conditions so much better then us.
Losing George early hurt but our forwards being constantly behind in those conditions was dumb and the first cross against Fraser.
Still we were bound to drop a game and in those conditions against a top 4 team im not surprised- next week is a better game to see where we sit imo.
Such logic is predicated on the assumption that we've not actually been really challenged by a top side in good form, except, maybe the Pussycats game. So, not really a bizarre logic but rather understandable, whether reasonable or not regarding judging Frase. I was one of those suggesting this logic but did so in terms of learning more about Frase, our on-field leadership and the group as a whole.
Then the heavens opened and our opponent became the conditions, which we didn't handle as well as the Dawks. Not by a long shot. So judging Frase on this game, to address your reasonable point, would be a folly. A game to move on from very quickly and just take the important 'learnings' (a new, tiresome cliche) regarding wet weather footy. Good lesson for the kids and on-field leaders.
Besides the fact it is time to replace the coach, Hawthorn was coming off a bad loss and were really on from the start, especially Ginnivan. They were too big and strong, better organised, had better skills, a better run with the umpires, and put us to the sword when they had the opportunity to do so. This result shows how much we need to improve, but I think it can be done by having Weitering and O'Farrell on the park and having more goal kicking options up forward, like Moir, though he needs to improve. I wouldn't mind running McKay as our main ruck and having O'Keeffe as the backup in the short term as Riley develops.
To the clown behind me last night, the continual abuse of Chol was borderline racist, if borderline. And if you have nothing positive to say about your team, don't waste everybody's time by continually saying it.
I suspect out of everybody at the club, on this forum, in the football public and in the AFL media, that Josh Fraser knows a thing or two more about managing a young ruck through a first game than most.
And ignoring the ruck specific issues, how young players are managed early in their career can set the tone for their whole career, not so much the loss of contest but the loss of confidence, the psychological damage. I do not want to see young Riley up to be some clown's career bitch. Riley did OK in horrendous conditions for a young lightweight marking ruckmen, and my thoughts are if Fraser thought that was enough exposure it was enough!
The bloke who pleasantly surprised me again last night was Derksen, I get he fumbled some marks in horrendous conditions, but you have to put that into context, he out positioned opponents and read the ball better to get there in the marking position in the first place. The mark itself is a confidence and experience thing.
FWIW, Smith had the fumbles as well, looking up instead of taking the footy, that is a first season player issue, he'll be better by the time he's in the 50 to 75 game range.
Evans showed us he is a genuine 24x7 player, he doesn't play the scoreboard, I hope some of his peers take note. I'd say after last night he's cemented in as one of our SFs, at least he would be if I was MC or Coach.
As for the umpiring, I understand the howlers in those conditions, but I do not understand the early gamer asymmetry. Ignore the stats, we were being given mystery frees in D50 late just to even things up, even the Dawks were looking bemused.
I'd never understood "Free Kick Hawthorn" before, I'd never really noticed, but I get it now! As for the most experienced umpire, he looked a bit Mr Magoo, all befuddled, time for retirement.
All teams play a stinker now and again. Even the mighty Swans have been smacked twice in recent weeks. The real issue is how we respond, and whether we are capable of responding. That's one thing that separates the good teams from the others.
I really hope the boys play next week like their lives depend on it. Collingwood are very determined and not in any way easy beats. Not to be underestimated IMO.
Derksen presents an interesting situation going forward.
With 2027 presenting a situation where all of Dean, O'Farrell and Weitering are available then there may not be a spot for him in defence.
But his strength in terms of his retention is probably his versatility and the ability to play both ends.
Given that Kemp is currently struggling in that key forward role, when Weitering comes back Derksen may be better used as a KPF.
We've tried him a bit at VFL level let's see how he goes at senior level.
Well, that was a reality check!
The atrocious umpiring didn't help but we would have copped a hiding even if we did have competent umpires ... and brought Acres into the team for Hollands ::)
There were a few positives:
Flynn Riley showed that he's competitive at AFL level but he needs to build up his strength and learn how to use it. Conditions weren't ideal for the big lad, but he battled hard and his five tackles is a good sign. I suspect that he will cause headaches for our opposition if he gets to rest forward.
Wade Derksen continues to work hard and make the most of his opportunities. He may be fourth banana in our KPD ranks but he deserves a place in the team, perhaps as a forward.
Mitch McGovern may have been fortunate to get a contract extension but he has certainly shown that it was a good decision. This could well be his most consistent season whether he's playing forward or in defence. He was one our players who did adapt to the conditions. I think that he may well get another year.
Frankie Evans was lucky to get a chance at a third club but, after a shaky start, he has shown that he is a capable AFL footballer. He was another one who played to the conditions.
Jack Ison has been quiet in last couple of games but I thought that he did quite well last night. He was probably a little too adventurous in the conditions but he was a presence for us even if he has a lot to learn.
I think that Adam Cerra has become a bit of a whipping boy but he was another who adapted to the conditions and worked hard all night. We might need him to a little more if Georgie's back doesn't come good.
Sam Walsh was mercurial!
I wonder if players are still taught to kick the laces surface of the ball in wet conditions :-\
If you want some conspiracy, you could imply the umpiring howlers were the AFL's best attempt at securing some home grown Melbourne content for the finals series, because it's looking more and more likely to be a largely vacant MCG.
If for nothing less than avoiding the potential controversy of forcing two interstate teams to play a final in Melbourne! ;D
Proper cynics might even claim the wildcard is the AFL's method of ensuring it meets the terms and conditions of the MCG contract. Otherwise the short term at least looks very bleak for Vic metropolitan based teams participating in finals.
For this season, Aints have the softest run home, they are almost a certainty after Cameron breaking his collarbone, Butters done, Nthmond a non-event. So it's likely our season is done, we might finish level with the Aints on points, it is not impossible, but we are way behind on percentage.
Having seen Channel 7 going over the incident involving the 50 m to Ginnevan, it looks even worse than it did at the time.
I wish they would go over some of the others, to be honest, but I know they feel they have to tread lightly.
But to say those decisions were critical is not an understatement: they robbed us of confidence, because we were penalized for doing the right thing and they were not penalized for doing the wrong thing.
But what do we do about it? It is too late to go back and undo their decisions. Maybe the AFL will offer the club an apology, but I wouldn't even be sure of that.
Channel 7's team appear to think that the umpires are lacking confidence and second guessing themselves. It would be hard to argue against that.
AFL senior ranks will close and that will be the end of it.
Once again we are on the end of crap AfL officialdom. Us and the Crows seem to cop the brunt of such rubbish.
The Foxtel commentators expressed the opinion that the umpires had lost all confidence and were reluctant to make decisions. They seemed to be waiting to see what happened next before making very late calls.
The conditions didn't help, but that standard of umpiring is not acceptable in any circumstances.
Comment of the season: J Dunstall "These blokes can make plans for September"
Umps were bad but they weren't the reason for our 10.5 goal loss.
He's right. After 7 straight eventually you can have a bad one. Remember, while living in Sydney in 1995, after winning the first 7 straight, I headed to the SCG, full of confidence, only to be pumped by 72pts, then the next week lost by 54pts. Swans were a avery average team and the Saints were horrible. Never lost after that. Same in 1981, won the first 5, played the Pies at Princes Park, both undefeated, and we took at 10 goal hiding. 2 games we didn't show up to play.
While we aren't quite 1981 or 1995 vintage but, historically, when we burst a bubble we do it good. It's more how we bounce back next week against sides competing with us for a wildcard. So far we have down very well against sides around us. We have no great ambition to win a flag so don't fully expect wins against Hawthorn (be nice if we showed up), Lions and Freo, but need to beat the rest, who are all around us.
Umpiring has been the worst standard I've seen. Each week there are almighty howlers. with 4 umpires each games there's simply not the depth of good umpires. You're digging into the dregs.
Excuses Jimmy.
When we lost to all the other top 6 sides it was unacceptable.
1. Loss / ?
2. Loss
3. Loss
4. Loss / ?
5. Loss
6. Loss
7. Win / ?
8. Loss / ?
9. Win
10. Loss / ?
11. Win
12. Carlton
13. Loss
14. ?
15. Win
16. Win
17. Win / Win
18. Win
was that our worst performance of the year against any team? Certainly seemed to be our lowest points total.
We weren’t in the same postcode as the Hawks on Saturday night, our response between will be telling next week but Saturday night was worse than most of our performances in the first 8 rounds this year.
For one of the few times this year a team really got hold of us. It hasn't happened often, but it happened against St. Kilda, who are nothing compared to Hawthorn. Our guys lost confidence in each other.
One of the reasons is that we were thrashed so badly in the ruck. Meek bashed the ball, he didn't tap it. Cripps, for example, was where he usually is, close to the rucks. He couldn't get near it. Walsh, who stood much further back, was much closer to the ball and sharked quite a few Meek taps. It was a clear setup and was one of the few things that worked on the night.
Pitto, for all his limitations, rarely get thrashed. This year he has been one of our best competitors. His only really poor game was against Richmond. Others might have been able to get hold of him for a quarter, but never more than that.
Riley isn't the competitor that Pitto is yet: he approaches every centre bounce the same. Around the ground, he couldn't compete with Meek's strength. Riley will improve, but it wasn't the opponent he needed for his first crack.
Not sure any of our (fit) rucks could have done much better.
The second reason was Hawthorn's disposal: they hit targets, while we couldn't. That sapped the confidence very quickly, as our players' hard work was not rewarded.
The third reason was the total incompetence from our key forwards. Mitch McGovern did well enough, considering the way he just bombed the ball into the forward line, but neither H nor Kemp could take a grab in those conditions.
It might be time to give Brodie Kemp as week or two off, as he has struggled recently. The problem we have is who to bring in!?
If we bring Moir in, and that would be a pretty big if, given his (lack of) form today. However, he would benefit from the better disposal of the 1's. And he does lead. Sometimes I wonder if our forwards remember that.
If Weitering is available, again no certainty there, then we could play Derksen forward. He moves well and can take a grab.
Hawthorn had a guy named Hill who played yesterday. He barely touched the ball, but got 2 junk time goals. I was really frustrated by that, as he literally hadn't had a possessions until then. But by the end, our pressure had really fallen away.
Hawks game and the bombers game have been our worst performances of the year IMO. Thankfully the bombers are the worst team of the past decade (or more) so we still got a win out of it.
1-8 Voss
7-1 Fraser
us fans all make excuses when it suits us but scoreboard doesnt lie mate
Ladder doesn't lie either.
Sort of thought that while the Hawks were the better side, we played ok up until 6 minutes to go in the 3rd.
The Ginnivan goal, the free to Gunstan for high contact after he fell and finally the Ison error with 6 minutes to go with his kick missing Walsh took all the air out of the game. 2 or 3 inside 50 entries resulted in a Hawthorn uncontested marks, which given the conditions was a poor outcome.
Credit to Hawthorn. They own us in recent times
We looked like a team that plays half of their games indoors.
We were all at sea (pardon the pun), totally lost in those conditions. Back to the bad old days of embarrassing second half fade outs.
I thought the same.
Hawks have been playing in Tassie year on year forever as well.
But....ultimately, none of that matters. They should know better at this level.
....and we own Geelong.
When you look at the opposition, not the coach, all our results make sense.
We should have trained with the sprinklers on in the lead up to the game :)
that comments works against your views mate.
Carlton
Vs top 6 - 0-6
Vs bottom 5 - 5-0
Vs middle 7 - 3-3
Explain how?
Doesn't matter who the coach is, results follow ladder perfectly.
MMB said the ladder doesnt lie.
Under Voss we were 17th.
under fraser we have won 7 of 8 and now sit in 12.
All the rest is spin as usual.
Why are you pulling me into this
GWS and Bulldogs own us and we own North ;)
OK, well in that case, after R1 we were 1-1 and sat 11th. So Voss is the better coach then? You said it.
If you are going to argue nonsense, nonsense will be thrown back at you.
Well Shawny it's your grand final this week buddy. All we have to do is beat Collingwood.
I can't remember the last time I went to a game and saw standing water on the G. Apparently 10ml in an hour!
Hawthorn's positioning, toughness and adaptability was streets ahead of ours. Losing Hewitt didn't help, but Acres would have been handy. Not sure about our tactic of bombing it into the forward line. Didn't seem to work very well.
The 50m penalty - enough has been said, but it energised Hawks and deflated us. Result wouldn't have been different, but it becomes a different game.
Good result for our son's mate who came along, but that was about it. Even the Hot Jam Donut after the game had cold jam in it - so disappointing.
We have to beat Collingwood right?
And another thread bites the dust. ::) ::)
It's a fruitless argument that is dominating many threads.
The same things are being written time after time.
Yet I doubt one mind has been changed.
And in twelve months from now the whole thing will just be another sad chapter in our 21st century history.
We'll have no doubt moved on next year to a new crisis or new beginnings.
People have had their say, it's on the record.
It'll still be here as long as the site exists in it's present form.
But I doubt anyone will look back more than a few pages on any thread they engage with.
At the very least, can posters please try and confine the Voss/Fraser discussion to the relevant coach thread.
Collingwood by 26 points. Just like Hawthorn, they own us.
Lods, i feel your frustration.
However, yours seems directed at one side of the debate.
Don't blame the retaliators. blame the instigators.
They've been needling us for months, and continue to do so. Now the shoe is on the other foot and you expect us to continue to cop it? Not going to happen.
You probably feel that Kruddler because you're on one side of the debate
The criticism applies to both sides.
The point of 1-8 to 7-1 or whatever the score may be has also been well and truly documented.
But so is the alternative view...it's not like the other side has been quiet.
The point is these things don't need to be repeated over and over in multiple threads.
What exactly are folks getting out of repeating the same thing.
Because if you think you're going to change the minds of those opposite you're sadly mistaken and essentially wasting your time.
Both sides just need to let it go.
Things changed a bit with the loss on the weekend and provided an opportunity for the other side to fire a salvo.
At the moment we have three distinct groups.
Ones questioning the changes, if any.
One supporting the moves.
And a group who just want to move on and look ahead.
I'm not asking anyone to stop posting their arguments.
I'm just pointing out they're pretty futile because no minds have or will change.
And if possible can we keep them out of other threads and confine it to the umbrella thread relating to coaches.
I have openly said my mind would change if we beat Hawthorn or Collingwood.
We have a few more tests in the coming weeks. We failed the first one against Haw, there is still Coll, Bris, Fred, WB and StK all above us. There is also GC who technically are better than us but struggling this year.