Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: Lods on July 27, 2026, 11:03:42 pm
Title: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Lods on July 27, 2026, 11:03:42 pm
One of the reasons I rate Cripps so highly is that he's done it in a pretty average side over the journey.
The other greats we talk about, with the possible exception of Judd, had a fair bit of talent around them.
Jezza, Nicholls, Doull, Johnson, Kernahan, Kouta, Williams, the bloke at St Kilda (nah, that's disrespectful...he is a Carlton great- Silvagni) and I've probably missed someone ::) ...all had some pretty good team-mates.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: tonyo on July 27, 2026, 11:20:16 pm
When you think about the rubbish he has put up with, the fact that he basically never misses a game, all the personal awards, captaincy etc, he is IMO indisputably in top 5 greatest CFC players.
It's really quite a remarkable thing to watch a genuine champion of the club ply their trade in real time. Not stories from old timers about players from past decades, not grainy, low res b/w footage on YouTube, not history books, but the actual lived experience of watching one of the greats. Hopefully we all cherish these moments and never take them for granted.
So who's your top 5 Pauly? (IMO our top 10 to 15 would smash the top 5 of most clubs, we have been blessed over the journey)
I'll weigh in on this one, I've been going to games since the mid 60's.....
5: Stephen Kernahan - a clutch leader and absolutely bleeds Navy Blue (still).
4: Bruce Doull - I honestly believe he was the prototype of the modern defender. Rarely beaten and always full-throttle.
3: Patrick Cripps - don't have to say any more. Agree with the observation that he has had to carry the team (so did Nicholls in his early years).
2: Alex Jesaulenko - could play anywhere and do absolutely mind-boggling things, and he didn't play the game until he was 14!
1: John Nicholls - an absolute colossus. His value to the team went far beyond disposals, tap-outs and goals. He was truly feared by the opposition.
I reckon this sub-topic deserves its own thread!
Honorable mentions to Judd and Diesel (although they arrived at Princes Park as already-acknowledged champions). And a little begrudgingly, SOS.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Macca37 on July 27, 2026, 11:24:07 pm
Others that immediately come to mind: Southby, Bosustow, Bradley, Ken Hunter.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: madbluboy on July 28, 2026, 06:32:46 am
Milestone game hey!
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: PaulP on July 28, 2026, 07:41:37 am
So who's your top 5 Pauly? (IMO our top 10 to 15 would smash the top 5 of most clubs, we have been blessed over the journey)
In no particular order : Cripps Ken Hunter Bruce Doull John Nicholls Sticks Kernahan
The list is restricted to players from my era, except maybe John Nicholls. Several others would also be worthy nominees.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: LP on July 28, 2026, 07:56:12 am
Doull should have left footy with far more industry wide honours, I think his problem was that he was too boring for the media, the footy equivalent of a metronome, 100% reliable perfect timing, terrific ball use, game after game, rarely if ever genuinely beaten, the standard by which you measure everybody else, that's the tell for me.
No fanfare, no histrionics, just go out do the job and then get ready for next week.
The media would rave about Southby, similar mould, so reliable, no waste, played on the glamours and usually beat them, terrific player, but 7 out of 10 times the pill never got that far forward because Doull had already killed it.
We've been lucky over the years, we had a swagger back then but it wasn't hubris, it was a confidence, we copped a lot in the media because the media was dominated by Filth and Feral loud mouths. But we never really boasted, we just got on with the job, for example Walls was the antithesis of Sheedy.
To me a lot of this started when Barassi arrived, he set a culture that lasted decades, admirably extended by Parkin.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 28, 2026, 11:35:19 am
So who's your top 5 Pauly? (IMO our top 10 to 15 would smash the top 5 of most clubs, we have been blessed over the journey)
In no particular order : Cripps Ken Hunter Bruce Doull John Nicholls Sticks Kernahan
The list is restricted to players from my era, except maybe John Nicholls. Several others would also be worthy nominees.
C Judd C Bradley, G Williams S Silvagni (FBOTC) W Johnston, one could go on and on. Naming a Carlton top 5 is THE most difficult and would be the most hotly debated topic in football.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: DJC on July 28, 2026, 12:15:49 pm
One of the reasons I rate Cripps so highly is that he's done it in a pretty average side over the journey.
The other greats we talk about, with the possible exception of Judd, had a fair bit of talent around them.
Jezza, Nicholls, Doull, Johnson, Kernahan, Kouta, Williams, the bloke at St Kilda (nah, that's disrespectful...he is a Carlton great- Silvagni) and I've probably missed someone ::) ...all had some pretty good team-mates.
I grew up watching John Nicholls play and his arrival at Carlton coincided with our weakest on-field period to date. Big Nick virtually carried the team single handedly until Ron Barassi arrived and we added some very good players in Walls, Crosswell and Jesaulenko to some stalwarts in Goold, Lofts, Silvagni, Jones and Gallagher.
Hopefully, the back end of Crippa's career is similar to Big Nick's.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Professer E on July 28, 2026, 12:32:57 pm
Swan McKay was handy in that era.
I couldn't do a top 5, how do you rank one gun versus another?
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: PaulP on July 28, 2026, 01:09:59 pm
Realistically you could create a handful of Top 5 lists and they would all be objectively correct.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Lods on July 28, 2026, 05:23:09 pm
The problem with placing Cripps in a "best of" is.... we all come to the task from different age groups, or length of time following Carlton If you've been a supporter for the last ten years I'd dare say Cripps would be Number 1. If you've been following the club since 1968 he'd probably slip a few spots in the draft order. It'd be the same as me trying to make a case that Jesaulenko was a better full forward than 'Soapy' Vallence without having ever seen the latter play.
And it's probably fair to say that some of our 'heroes of old' grow a few inches, and kick a few yards further with the passage of time (yep, the imperial measures were used on purpose).
We tend to remember our favourite players like a 'highlight' reel. We don't remember the ordinary games, partly because when the important games came they rarely let us down. Some of the younger members of the site are probably a bit tired of some of the same old names being trotted out because to them it's 'history' rather than an "experience"
Our team of the century was announced on 20th May 2000. It doesn't include a player who was in the early stages of one of the greatest seasons in Carlton history in Koutoufides. Since that team was announced there has been constant debate about who would replace some of the players in a greatest ever Carlton side. Kouta is usually a walk up start (I'd have him in), Judd's another, Fev at Full forward? But the ones to go out are often older players like Vallence or Deacon and James--both Brownlow medallists The team of the 20th century should probably stay just that.
We're probably a bit caught up in what's happening with the football and coaching at the moment...but an interesting thread activity in the off season might be a "Top ten players of the 2000s" or even a team of players covering the same period. Most of us would have seen all the players play and while it may not match the 20th century side the debate would give everyone a fair point to judge without the barrier of time.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 28, 2026, 05:41:18 pm
I couldn't do a top 5, how do you rank one gun versus another?
My exact point Prof. I'd hazard a guess and say we argue all day long over top 20 let alone a top 5. I always say it, we have been blessed with more of the the best to play the game than any other club. Look at the TOTC. Crippa is up there, not sure about top 5 even with his two Brownlows.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: kruddler on July 28, 2026, 06:36:10 pm
I'm not as old as most, so i'm choosing from mid/late 80's onwards.
Kouta Diesel Silvagni Cripps Kernahan
As good as Cripps is, his poor kicking drops him down the order for me.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: shawny on July 28, 2026, 07:32:27 pm
Based on early 80s to present
No particular order
Sticks Diesel Bradley Dominator Doull
HM, Cripps, Judd but need to do it in GFs and while thats not their fault i still rate the others higher as ive seen them do it on the biggest stage
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: madbluboy on July 28, 2026, 07:56:30 pm
I have Judd as the best Carlton player I have seen.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 28, 2026, 10:19:01 pm
I have Judd as the best Carlton player I have seen.
Kouta says hi
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 28, 2026, 10:21:06 pm
Pound for pound, Kenny Hunter and Kade Simpson are hard to split, Kenny due to premierships.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Baggers on July 29, 2026, 09:18:33 am
To answer the thread question: Extremely highly. Especially if your criterion is to control/turn a game. Which does limit it somewhat to on-ballers.
On that measure: Crippa. Juddy. Dominator. Jezza. Big Nick. Just out of the top 5: Braddles. Diesel. Fitzy. Harmesy. Gordon C.
Forwards: Sticks. Jezza again. Buzz. Wallsy. Syd J Just out of the top 5: Alex Marcou.
Defenders: Doull. Southby. SOS. Kenny H. Ragsy. Just out of the top 5: Swan. Weiters.
Utilities: Kouta. Tiger. Rhys.
And 'what could have been' - Peter Motley.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: madbluboy on July 29, 2026, 09:35:33 am
This was the club's top 12 in 2014
1. John Nicholls 328 games 307 goals 1957-74 2. Stephen Kernahan 251 games 738 goals 1986-97 3. Bruce Doull 356 games 22 goals 1969-86 4. Stephen Silvagni 312 games 202 goals 1985-01 5.Alex Jesaulenko 256 games 424 goals 1967-79 6. Craig Bradley 375 games 247 goals 1986-2002 7. Robert Walls 218 games 367 goals 1967-78 8. Wayne Johnston 209 games 283 goals 1979-90 9. Geoff Southby 268 games 31 goals 1971-84 10. Greg Williams 109 games 89 goals 1992-97 11. Ken Hands 211 games 188 goals 1945-57 12. Chris Judd 125 games 79 goals 2008-
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Lods on July 29, 2026, 10:23:12 am
1. John Nicholls 328 games 307 goals 1957-74 2. Stephen Kernahan 251 games 738 goals 1986-97 3. Bruce Doull 356 games 22 goals 1969-86 4. Stephen Silvagni 312 games 202 goals 1985-01 5.Alex Jesaulenko 256 games 424 goals 1967-79 6. Craig Bradley 375 games 247 goals 1986-2002 7. Robert Walls 218 games 367 goals 1967-78 8. Wayne Johnston 209 games 283 goals 1979-90 9. Geoff Southby 268 games 31 goals 1971-84 10. Greg Williams 109 games 89 goals 1992-97 11. Ken Hands 211 games 188 goals 1945-57 12. Chris Judd 125 games 79 goals 2008-
No Kouta ::)
If we’re going by ones during our supporting time, and taking into account the bias of time.
Jesaulenko Nicholls Doull Koutoufides Kernahan Silvagni Williams Cripps Judd Johnston
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: shawny on July 29, 2026, 10:41:04 am
Wayne Harmes was a star - massive finals performer and heard him in interviews how there was a group of key star players in the late 70s and 80s who made a pact to refuse to lose to the Filth in big finals and said the amount of hatred for them was not like any other team
A tad different these days sadly.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Thryleon on July 29, 2026, 11:08:11 am
Kouta was amazing in top flight, but some of his ordinary games detract from his legacy.
Cripps... I have to say, he has been bloody good and of his 250 games, I reckon less than 5% are bad ones.
2 x brownlow medallist puts him in Greg Williams territory, and the knock on his kicking doesnt really detract from his legacy. He is in rare air, and dont ask me who Cripps goes past in the pantheon of Carlton greats, but he is easily in the top percentile. If he jagged a flag as captain, then he would instantly become a top 5.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 29, 2026, 12:09:31 pm
Kouta was amazing in top flight, but some of his ordinary games detract from his legacy.
Cripps... I have to say, he has been bloody good and of his 250 games, I reckon less than 5% are bad ones.
2 x brownlow medallist puts him in Greg Williams territory, and the knock on his kicking doesnt really detract from his legacy. He is in rare air, and dont ask me who Cripps goes past in the pantheon of Carlton greats, but he is easily in the top percentile. If he jagged a flag as captain, then he would instantly become a top 5.
Kouta in full flight at the peak of his powers, no one comes close.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2026, 12:18:47 pm
Kouta was amazing in top flight, but some of his ordinary games detract from his legacy.
Cripps... I have to say, he has been bloody good and of his 250 games, I reckon less than 5% are bad ones.
2 x brownlow medallist puts him in Greg Williams territory, and the knock on his kicking doesnt really detract from his legacy. He is in rare air, and dont ask me who Cripps goes past in the pantheon of Carlton greats, but he is easily in the top percentile. If he jagged a flag as captain, then he would instantly become a top 5.
I think Cripps is already top 5, and also agree on Kouta. If you take his career in toto, there's a lot of ordinary games after his peak. When you add in his shenanigans with Pagan and what is IMO poor leadership, I think he must lose additional brownie points.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Lods on July 29, 2026, 12:35:36 pm
Kouta was amazing in top flight, but some of his ordinary games detract from his legacy.
Cripps... I have to say, he has been bloody good and of his 250 games, I reckon less than 5% are bad ones.
2 x brownlow medallist puts him in Greg Williams territory, and the knock on his kicking doesnt really detract from his legacy. He is in rare air, and dont ask me who Cripps goes past in the pantheon of Carlton greats, but he is easily in the top percentile. If he jagged a flag as captain, then he would instantly become a top 5.
I think Cripps is already top 5, and also agree on Kouta. If you take his career in toto, there's a lot of ordinary games after his peak. When you add in his shenanigans with Pagan and what is IMO poor leadership, I think he must lose additional brownie points.
We can't judge on the off-field stuff. There are a few dark chapters in a number of our greats. Kouta's ordinary games came mostly after his injury in 2000 He was never the same. At his peak in 2000 he was arguably the best of them all.
But yes! You could make a good case for the fact he was never a great captain.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: kruddler on July 29, 2026, 02:04:35 pm
Kouta was amazing in top flight, but some of his ordinary games detract from his legacy.
Cripps... I have to say, he has been bloody good and of his 250 games, I reckon less than 5% are bad ones.
2 x brownlow medallist puts him in Greg Williams territory, and the knock on his kicking doesnt really detract from his legacy. He is in rare air, and dont ask me who Cripps goes past in the pantheon of Carlton greats, but he is easily in the top percentile. If he jagged a flag as captain, then he would instantly become a top 5.
Kouta was unstoppable in full flight.....anywhere over the ground. His 2000 year would be about the best year by anyone, ever......except Woewodin? ::)
He averaged 6.3 clearances a game and 1.8 goals and 2.75 contested marks a game.
For the record, Harry has never had that many contested marks in any given year (2.6 CM/g) Harry has only average more goals a game in 4 of his 10 years (1 year was only 1.83) Cripps averages 7 clearances over his career, his 45 brownlow vote season, he averaged 8.
Kouta was able to match it with both, at the same time.
After the knee, he became 'ordinary' as he was a different player but reinvented his game and became a clearance beast. In 2005 he averaged more clearances than anyone, including prime Judd and Kirk.
You could pick your starting 17 and whatever you had left, you could put Kouta into it, and he wouldn't be out of place.
So nobody comes close to Kouta for mine simply because he could do anything, and did.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Thryleon on July 29, 2026, 02:10:19 pm
I was thinking of years 1996 to 1998 (from memory). Those 3 seasons werent amazing for Kouta. Might have coincided around his dad passing from memory.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Professer E on July 29, 2026, 02:26:38 pm
Yes his dad had rotten cancer and Ang was hospitalised with spinal issues so it was a very tough period for him. When he did his knee the second against the swans was the second darkest day I've had watching footy.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 29, 2026, 02:36:58 pm
I was thinking of years 1996 to 1998 (from memory). Those 3 seasons werent amazing for Kouta. Might have coincided around his dad passing from memory.
Correct.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 29, 2026, 02:41:08 pm
Dont want to harp on Kouta but name another player that could play fwd, def, mid, ruck. He could play on talls, smalls. His career was cut down with knee injuries just at his peak and was never the same afterwards. If he didnt suffer those injuries, he probably would have won a Brownlow (or two) and we'd be talking about one of the best to play the game.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Baggers on July 29, 2026, 05:10:34 pm
Kouta was amazing in top flight, but some of his ordinary games detract from his legacy.
Cripps... I have to say, he has been bloody good and of his 250 games, I reckon less than 5% are bad ones.
2 x brownlow medallist puts him in Greg Williams territory, and the knock on his kicking doesnt really detract from his legacy. He is in rare air, and dont ask me who Cripps goes past in the pantheon of Carlton greats, but he is easily in the top percentile. If he jagged a flag as captain, then he would instantly become a top 5.
Kouta was unstoppable in full flight.....anywhere over the ground. His 2000 year would be about the best year by anyone, ever......except Woewodin? ::)
He averaged 6.3 clearances a game and 1.8 goals and 2.75 contested marks a game.
For the record, Harry has never had that many contested marks in any given year (2.6 CM/g) Harry has only average more goals a game in 4 of his 10 years (1 year was only 1.83) Cripps averages 7 clearances over his career, his 45 brownlow vote season, he averaged 8.
Kouta was able to match it with both, at the same time.
After the knee, he became 'ordinary' as he was a different player but reinvented his game and became a clearance beast. In 2005 he averaged more clearances than anyone, including prime Judd and Kirk.
You could pick your starting 17 and whatever you had left, you could put Kouta into it, and he wouldn't be out of place.
So nobody comes close to Kouta for mine simply because he could do anything, and did.
Nice. And spotonski.
Kouta should have won the '95 Norm Smith. He was the most influential player on the ground by a long shot, especially early when the game was up for grabs... He set us up.
And if anyone wants to see what he was capable of and how just one player can turn and win a game in a quarter of footy - 1999 Preliminary Final final qtr.`If we had a 21 yr old Kouta today... Oh to dream...
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Thryleon on July 29, 2026, 05:15:15 pm
Im glad everyone else said it, I cant be accused of Greek bias. Kouta holds a very special place in my heart, but Cripps could conceivably go past him if he wont 2 flags as captain.... :D
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 29, 2026, 05:17:15 pm
Im glad everyone else said it, I cant be accused of Greek bias. Kouta holds a very special place in my heart, but Cripps could conceivably go past him if he wont 2 flags as captain.... :D
Dont forget he's half Italian.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: madbluboy on July 29, 2026, 05:37:36 pm
Im glad everyone else said it, I cant be accused of Greek bias. Kouta holds a very special place in my heart, but Cripps could conceivably go past him if he wont 2 flags as captain.... :D
Dont forget he's half Italian.
I was at school in 1995 and an Egyptian kid was trying to claim him.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Baggers on July 29, 2026, 05:37:59 pm
Just imagine a 6'3" Daicos/Nas. That's what you got with Kouta.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2026, 05:44:20 pm
Kouta’s best was right up there. The problem is there isn't enough of it.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 29, 2026, 06:29:20 pm
Kouta’s best was right up there. The problem is there isn't enough of it.
Agree, as good as Kouta was, he elite stuff only lasted for a relatively short period of time.
To be in the best 5 of the club, I reckon you need to have had a club-changing career, not just three or four seasons. That puts many others in front of Kouta on the 'All Time' list.......
If we were only judging talent and impact, he rates pretty highly- but other names have had a longer-lasting and more profound effect on CFC.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: tonyo on July 30, 2026, 04:44:28 pm
Agree, as good as Kouta was, he elite stuff only lasted for a relatively short period of time.
To be in the best 5 of the club, I reckon you need to have had a club-changing career, not just three or four seasons. That puts many others in front of Kouta on the 'All Time' list.......
If we were only judging talent and impact, he rates pretty highly- but other names have had a longer-lasting and more profound effect on CFC.
Yes, when he was on there was no one better IMO. For comparison, he and Hird started and ended their careers at pretty much the same time, same age, similar number of games. I agree with your criteria, and judging by that, I would have Hird ahead of Kouta.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: kruddler on July 30, 2026, 07:15:19 pm
Agree, as good as Kouta was, he elite stuff only lasted for a relatively short period of time.
To be in the best 5 of the club, I reckon you need to have had a club-changing career, not just three or four seasons. That puts many others in front of Kouta on the 'All Time' list.......
If we were only judging talent and impact, he rates pretty highly- but other names have had a longer-lasting and more profound effect on CFC.
Yes, when he was on there was no one better IMO. For comparison, he and Hird started and ended their careers at pretty much the same time, same age, similar number of games. I agree with your criteria, and judging by that, I would have Hird ahead of Kouta.
So Pendles is the best player ever then? He's played the most games?? More success by comparison. Or should you give it to Michael Tuck, close to most games and most finals and GF's.
The greatest players can have reasons they didn't sustain that success.
Depends on your criteria at the end of the day.
I'm picking Kouta over just about any other player out there. He changed the game and what recruiters started looking for......for better or worse.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2026, 07:34:52 pm
Agree, as good as Kouta was, he elite stuff only lasted for a relatively short period of time.
To be in the best 5 of the club, I reckon you need to have had a club-changing career, not just three or four seasons. That puts many others in front of Kouta on the 'All Time' list.......
If we were only judging talent and impact, he rates pretty highly- but other names have had a longer-lasting and more profound effect on CFC.
Yes, when he was on there was no one better IMO. For comparison, he and Hird started and ended their careers at pretty much the same time, same age, similar number of games. I agree with your criteria, and judging by that, I would have Hird ahead of Kouta.
Hird was a superstar player, no doubt about it. Hird however could not do what Kouta could, not another player thats played the game could.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: shawny on July 31, 2026, 12:29:39 pm
Agree, as good as Kouta was, he elite stuff only lasted for a relatively short period of time.
To be in the best 5 of the club, I reckon you need to have had a club-changing career, not just three or four seasons. That puts many others in front of Kouta on the 'All Time' list.......
If we were only judging talent and impact, he rates pretty highly- but other names have had a longer-lasting and more profound effect on CFC.
Yes, when he was on there was no one better IMO. For comparison, he and Hird started and ended their careers at pretty much the same time, same age, similar number of games. I agree with your criteria, and judging by that, I would have Hird ahead of Kouta.
Agree, and the same reason i rate Ablett Junior career a tad higher than Judds
While Judds best was a tad better than Ablett's best IMO the fact Ablett did the same high level for quite a few more seasons than what Judds body allowed him to do that's what separates them
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: tonyo on July 31, 2026, 01:45:07 pm
Yes, when he was on there was no one better IMO. For comparison, he and Hird started and ended their careers at pretty much the same time, same age, similar number of games. I agree with your criteria, and judging by that, I would have Hird ahead of Kouta.
So Pendles is the best player ever then? He's played the most games?? More success by comparison. Or should you give it to Michael Tuck, close to most games and most finals and GF's.
The greatest players can have reasons they didn't sustain that success.
Depends on your criteria at the end of the day.
I'm picking Kouta over just about any other player out there. He changed the game and what recruiters started looking for......for better or worse.
It's obviously not just based on the number of games played - it's what happened during all of those games - not only what they did individually, but how they elevated those around them to be better players.
We've waited 30 years to get a leader with the aura of Nicholls and Kernahan. I have a hopeful feeling that Harry Dean may be forged from the same mould.......
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: kruddler on July 31, 2026, 03:26:01 pm
So Pendles is the best player ever then? He's played the most games?? More success by comparison. Or should you give it to Michael Tuck, close to most games and most finals and GF's.
The greatest players can have reasons they didn't sustain that success.
Depends on your criteria at the end of the day.
I'm picking Kouta over just about any other player out there. He changed the game and what recruiters started looking for......for better or worse.
It's obviously not just based on the number of games played - it's what happened during all of those games - not only what they did individually, but how they elevated those around them to be better players.
We've waited 30 years to get a leader with the aura of Nicholls and Kernahan. I have a hopeful feeling that Harry Dean may be forged from the same mould.......
Everyone will have a different criteria that they base their decision on.
Answer me this.....Does Michael Jordan 'lose points' because he was sub-par as a 40yo when playing at the Wizards?
His performances were nothing like 'peak Jordan' in the 90's.
IMO, it matters SFA, Jordan at his best is the goat. Whatever happened later in his career doesn't change that.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: LP on August 01, 2026, 06:42:18 am
Some are influenced by peak performance, a great season or spectacular games, others think first of sustained performance over a career.
Cripps has both!
I think he has Kouta and some others covered in this regard, and to me Kouta along with Diesel might well be responsible for the two best individual seasons of footy I have ever seen.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Lods on August 01, 2026, 08:17:05 am
Yep It's how you judge it, the criteria you use.
"Kouta is the best Carlton Footballer I've seen."
"Jesaulenko is the best Carlton footballer I've seen"
Both can be true. ;)
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Baggers on August 01, 2026, 10:09:28 am
Couldn't agree more with most of the comments here. Yep, all about the criteria you use. Subjective? So what!
My humble criteria would be: Ability to turn a game. Juddy, Edwardo (Betts), Fev., The Buzz, Kouta, Dominator, Big Nick, Jezza, Crippa, Diesel, Charles C., Finals performer/reliability. Ratts, K Hunter, Doull, SOS & Serg, Braddles, Sticks, Ang, Wallsy, Southby, Swan, Wes L., Tiger, W Harmes, Walsh then the above minus Charles C. Reckon Fev and Simmo would have been. Sustained high level of performance in terms of beating opponent and trustworthiness over weeks, months and seasons - dependable and reliable. Walsh, Juddy, Edwardo, Hewett, Simmo, Crippa, Fev., Ratts, K Hunter, D English, Lofts, Alex Marcou, then all of the above minus Tiger, Charles C and Kouta. High level skills - consistently beating opponent, getting the aggott and delivering the aggott accurately to team mate. Juddy, Edwardo, Fev., Harmes, M Sexton, A McKay, Ang, Geoff Southby, then all of the above minus Charles C. Hard, tough and mongrel determination/ruthlessness sustained over many seasons/career (the hard-nuts): Hewett, Walsh, Rhys, E Curnow, Crippa, Ratts, D English, W Harmes, I Collins, Curly A., Vin W., P Dean, SOS and Serg, Lofts.
Well, I've successfully convinced myself that there is not really a 'best' at anything, just groups over the decades who've been outstanding in a number of ways or one amazing way in particular!
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: LP on August 01, 2026, 10:35:56 am
No mention of The Hyphen here, and yet over my life supporting Carlton The Hyphen was as good of a performer in clutch games as any, and had many great momentum turning games. But he wasn't with us that long and arrived "a foreigner".
Many fans show a bit of team colour history bigotry, but Judd, Diesel and The Hyphen deserve to be part of the discussions even if their blood isn't pure! ;)
I've never understood why Ratts isn't in more of these discussions, career consistency, a 24x7 performer, he'd be up near the pinnacle in just about any other club's history.
But having said that, can you imagine the impact Cripps would have had if he was in a team surrounded by the likes of Diesel, Ratts, The Hyphen, Kouta, etc., etc., I doubt he would have faded into the background?
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: townsendcalling on August 01, 2026, 10:47:23 am
There are two 'one club' champions who led both a team and a club out of the dark days into success......John Nicholls did, and hopefully Patrick Cripps still can. Juddy came in from elsewhere as a savior and gave us something to turn up and watch, while Sticks led a champion team through a purple patch. Doull great, Jezza great, Johnno great, etc etc but Nicholls and Cripps in tough times said jump on my back, let's go. Nicholls 1 Cripps 2 (if he can snag another JNM and a premiership, it would be a dead heat!!)
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Baggers on August 01, 2026, 11:17:39 am
No mention of The Hyphen here, and yet over my life supporting Carlton The Hyphen was as good of a performer in clutch games as any, and had many great momentum turning games. But he wasn't with us that long and arrived "a foreigner".
Many fans show a bit of team colour history bigotry, but Judd, Diesel and The Hyphen deserve to be part of the discussions even if their blood isn't pure! ;)
I've never understood why Ratts isn't in more of these discussions, career consistency, a 24x7 performer, he'd be up near the pinnacle in just about any other club's history.
But having said that, can you imagine the impact Cripps would have had if he was in a team surrounded by the likes of Diesel, Ratts, The Hyphen, Kouta, etc., etc., I doubt he would have faded into the background?
Whoops... corrected. Terrible exclusion on my part, especially seeing how Rhys is one of my personal all time faves ...along with Dommy, Tiger and Jezza!
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Lods on August 01, 2026, 12:24:35 pm
I think this exercise is a bit like a pyramid
We have the top one or two at the top, but as we go down the pyramid the base widens. Players like Ratten, Bradley, Rhys-Jones are in the pyramid for mine. They definitely crossed my mind.... just a few tiers from the top.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 01, 2026, 01:54:49 pm
We have the top one or two at the top, but as we go down the pyramid the base widens. Players like Ratten, Bradley, Rhys-Jones are in the pyramid for mine. They definitely crossed my mind.... just a few tiers from the top.
Lods it comes down to who you have seen play first hand. I never go to see the likes of Nicholls, Jackson and that era play. My recollections of players live started in around 1974 when I went to my first Carlton (v Rich) game. I caught the tail end of blokes like Jezza, McKay, Walls, the last 10 yrs or so of Doull, Sheldon and Johnno. Doull and Johnno left enought of an impression on me to rate them highly. Obviously 80s to now I have seen enough footy to judge. I'll stand corrected but in the days before my time, players played in their positions for an entire career. Later players came along who could swing to either ends of the ground. At the end of the day, the greats had strengths which is what I base or rank them on. For me based on what I saw: Doull was the most consistent (rarely beaten). Williams was the most highly skilled on both sides of the body. Kouta was the ideal hybrid in that he was able to play ANYWHERE on the ground and do things that were superhuman. Sticks was our best forward and leader. I can't split Hunter and Simpson in the category of pound for pound crazy courage. Walls was probably the most stylish, elegant and natural footballer I have seen (albeit I saw the end of his) Buzz was the most freakishly talented who could make the impossible possible. SOS was the best FB I have ever seen play the game, played on the best FF's to played the game and for the most part had their measure. Juddy was the most explosive and damaging footballer I have seen. Crippa is the beast of all beasts when it comes to tough, contested footy. Fitzy was the best ruckman I have seen. How the hell anyone could rank the above in any sort of order its above my pay grade. Apologies to Braddles, Fev, Ratts, Dean, Sexton, Madden, etc etc. PS If I had to put my life on someone's boot to kick for goal, Fev hands down.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Lods on August 01, 2026, 02:07:43 pm
You're right about the set positions of the old timers GIC. It happened that some moved around, but it wasn't as common as today. Kouta was probably the prototype of the modern footballer. He could change all over the ground during the course of a game. But over the course of a career Jesaulenko was also pretty versatile...champion centre half forward, centre, 100 goal full forward- and probably gave another hundred away to teammates...and finally a half-back flanker. It could be argued that in that position he set a trend for the attacking half back. :D
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: crashlander on August 01, 2026, 02:58:34 pm
I date myself when I say I saw Alex Jesaulenko kick his 10th goal in 1970, the first time I'd been to a game as a 9 year old. That did leave an impression.
Having seen the game for so long, I do find it hard to compare guys in different eras. The game has evolved, and the players have had to as well. Our game makes physical challenges unlike any other, the need for speed, to be able to run out a long game, the strength to be able to handle a full contact sport without protection, the skills hit targets 40-50 m away and more.
I loved Jezza: he could, and did, play anywhere and do it well. He was 3rd in the Brownlow as a half forward flanker, a full forward and a half back flanker. He was a premiership coach in a back pocket. He played in the middle at times. Very few players played more than 1 position when Jezza started, but Jezza could do them all.
Kouta was a man before his time, who could also play almost anywhere. He played some of the most dynamic games I've ever seen and had to reinvent himself a number of time through injury and whatnots. I remember seeing his first as a gangly 15 or 16 year old playing for our Academy team out at Waverley. He didn't have the game sense then, and it took him a while to find it, but you could tell he had something. I remember seeing Michael Voss, probably the opposition play I respected the most, just look helpless one day at Carlton when Kouta took Brisbane apart. He did his best and Kouta barely noticed it as he jumped all over him.
In time, there will probably be more players like Patrick Cripps, but he was the template against which all future last mids will be compared. He managed to get numbers of clearances and contested possessions that had rarely been seen before to ordinary ruckmen. What he could have done to the rucks we had in the '60's to 90's boggles the imagination.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 01, 2026, 05:47:46 pm
@ Crash and Lods: I still maintain that we have been blessed many of the games all time greats. More than any other team (Haw, Coll and Rich supporters will never admit that of course).
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: bobby on August 01, 2026, 11:18:09 pm
I finally saw Andrew Mackay’s name mentioned. For mine he showed up every week, never gave inch, was fair at the same time and left nothing the ground when he walked off. 4xAll Australian too. If anyone had a better an attitude and work ethic I”d like to know who they are. It made him a great in a different way.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: crashlander on August 02, 2026, 01:09:37 am
@ Crash and Lods: I still maintain that we have been blessed many of the games all time greats. More than any other team (Haw, Coll and Rich supporters will never admit that of course).
Maybe not for all time: I didn't see the really old days. But in my lifetime we have been blessed with some remarkable players. Not just because we won premierships either, but we were so even that even though we might have the most Brownlow votes as a team, we never had a medalist. In some ways Cripps has been luckier, as an individual player; he has won the Brownlow twice (the only Blue ever to do so). Others have won one with us, and one elsewhere. But it is because we haven't had the same depth of talent in recent times that Cripps stands out. Few Carlton players in the past have had to carry the club like Cripps has. In some ways that also shows just how good he is: we've been through the worst period in the clubs history, and he has been a beacon of hope.
Back in 1973 Richmond realized they couldn't beat us playing football. Instead, they tried to take our players out. We had maybe 13 fit players at the end of that one. I will never forgive them for that. Those Richmond players were a stain on the game. But it illustrates is: the only way they could win is to cheat.
Title: Re: How does Crippa rank among the panoply of Carlton greats?
Post by: Thryleon on August 02, 2026, 08:56:45 am
Going through the annals of carlton folklore shows something. Players like Ratten played high level football every week and this made our guns walk taller and elevated the status of lesser players too.
Not that Ratten wasn't a brilliant player, but he was super consistent and reliable.
We have seldom had players in that mould but have had many that were capable of brilliance.