Carlton Supporters Club

Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: crashlander on September 02, 2020, 10:11:12 PM

Title: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: crashlander on September 02, 2020, 10:11:12 PM
I'll complete the title after the game.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 03, 2020, 09:24:36 PM
Eddie and Simmo must retire or be retired immediately.
So many players next to useless. Gov my lord how putrid.
Game was being handed to us on a platter and we failed. Too angry to say anything more.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 03, 2020, 09:27:06 PM
Eddie and Simmo must retire or be retired immediately.
Game was being handed to us on a platter and we failed. Too angry to say anything more.

Yes. Don't mind if you're not good enough so be it but when you are good enough, lead twice at 3/4 time to make the finals in consecutive weeks and $hit the bed twice, nothing makes me more annoyed. We have literally pissed finals down the drain! Just bed$hitters!
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Micky0 on September 03, 2020, 09:27:38 PM
4 day turn around showed to a non-gelled team.

Disappointing to the extreme but they looked buggered.

Don’t believe they can’t handle the heat, just don’t have the stamina.

And FFS HAVE SOME GOAL KICKING PRACTICE!!!!! Sick of watching them miss every set shot!
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 03, 2020, 09:30:41 PM
4 day turn around showed to a non-gelled team.

Disappointing to the extreme but they looked buggered.

Don’t believe they can’t handle the heat, just don’t have the stamina.

And FFS HAVE SOME GOAL KICKING PRACTICE!!!!! Sick of watching them miss every set shot!

Last 5 2nd halves......8.32 !!!
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: kruddler on September 03, 2020, 09:30:48 PM
Said it in the in-game thread, but it needs to be repeated.

1.9 after quarter time, does NOT win you games.

Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Thryleon on September 03, 2020, 09:31:10 PM
You can't win games of football kicking 1 goal 9 in 3 quarters.

Simple.  Kick it longer and you can lock it in.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Mantis on September 03, 2020, 09:32:33 PM
No goals in the second half last game and only one goal this game says we stink.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Baggers on September 03, 2020, 09:33:18 PM
Yes. Don't mind if you're not good enough so be it but when you are good enough, lead twice at 3/4 time to make the finals in consecutive weeks and $hit the bed twice, nothing makes me more annoyed. We have literally pissed finals down the drain! Just bed$hitters!

And there you have it. Just too soft between the lugholes. Too much left to too few.

I know it's hindsight BUT I couldn't understand, with his form so form, that Meat got the nod ahead of TDK. Many other factors to discuss re this p1ss weak capitulation - AGAIN - CHOKERS!
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: LoveNavy on September 03, 2020, 09:34:18 PM
Absolutely cheated ourselves out of a very winnable game. Short break and looked fatigued. But seriously can't anyone kick goals consistently. It is after all, the sole goal (🙃) of the game.

I don't want to single anyone out, but what's with Dow?
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 03, 2020, 09:34:40 PM
This has seriously been a waste. The season was set up for us at 3/4 time the last two weeks and we screwed it!

I'm happy we've improved a mile since the middle of last year and were talking finals this late in the year but at the same time it has really been a waste. Chance was there and was pissed down the drain.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Baggers on September 03, 2020, 09:34:42 PM
I'd love to know our goalless quarter count for the year.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 03, 2020, 09:36:33 PM
And there you have it. Just too soft between the lugholes. Too much left to too few.

I know it's hindsight BUT I couldn't understand, with his form so form, that Meat got the nod ahead of TDK. Many other factors to discuss re this p1ss weak capitulation - AGAIN - CHOKERS!

Choking has been the difference between missing out and making it this year. We're highly competitive with anyone but choking has cost us quite a few games this year.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 03, 2020, 09:38:19 PM
I'd love to know our goalless quarter count for the year.

Not sure it's that high just alot the last few weeks. It's not as if we don't have the opportunities. As I said, our last 5 2nd halves have resulted in 8.32. 40 scoring shots for 8 goals!!!
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 03, 2020, 09:39:10 PM
GWS got saved by Riccardi and Haynes....we are average but if they think they are going anywhere they can forget it....
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: hitman on September 03, 2020, 09:39:38 PM
Glad they rushed McGovern back. He is like a half eaten doughnut. You take a bite but then wish you hadn't.

And again with the passing over the heads of the leading fwd. And when our main fwd got it in McKay, he kicks 1.4. For a left footer he really doesn't look natural. Leans on the kick, drops the ball on an angle every single time yet what is done to correct it. And how do they run out of puff when don't we have the best fitness guru n the business? Sick of it
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 03, 2020, 09:39:47 PM
Absolutely cheated ourselves out of a very winnable game. Short break and looked fatigued. But seriously can't anyone kick goals consistently. It is after all, the sole goal (🙃) of the game.

I don't want to single anyone out, but what's with Dow?
Two weeks in a row no less. Even a half decent team would have ended GWS's season at 3/4 time.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: madbluboy on September 03, 2020, 09:40:12 PM
What was the deal with the ground? Covered in sand, players slipping everywhere.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 03, 2020, 09:40:40 PM
GWS got saved by Riccardi and Haynes....we are average but if they think they are going anywhere they can forget it....
And Greene
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 03, 2020, 09:42:03 PM
Eddie and Simmo must retire or be retired immediately.
And Casboult also sadly.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Micky0 on September 03, 2020, 09:42:07 PM
Just don’t have those few that take it on when the going gets tough and get the team going! Cripps looked half dead all game. 

McGovern will want to improve his flying for the ball, from day dot he has gone too early. He cheats himself out of the contest.

Martin has stopped, as has Eddie.

Jones And Willo had some brain farts. Levi has been missing.

For those that complain about Murphy, who challenges him at every contest he gets to or is on the end of? No one. So Altho he might do things that frustrate, the fact is there is no one better than him and he is left to do the bulk of that work, still.  Personally think he’s very important to us, but we want him to not be in that position .

So disappointed to have lost the season now again and over it. Would like to know why we cannot kick screwing goals after half time - fitness?
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: madbluboy on September 03, 2020, 09:42:11 PM
McGovern in helps McKay who should have really put the game away.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: sydneybluesfan on September 03, 2020, 09:43:24 PM
1 goal from 38 inside 50 entries after half time. Just like last week we get plenty of chances but our forward play is appalling. So many non contributors. SPS was rested so had a 13 day break and was invisible.

How McGovern goes straight in is beyond me.

Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: rocky on September 03, 2020, 09:46:19 PM
All that's left now is a loss to Adelaide to drop the cherry on top.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Professer E on September 03, 2020, 09:46:44 PM
MacGovern is a fraud.   Takes money pretending to play football.  Awful recruiting decision.

Betts is finished.   Casboult is so down he'd drop a pie.   Useless.

So ducking angry right now.


Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 03, 2020, 09:47:58 PM
And Greene
Yep forgot about him GTC, was a driver after half time and at least played to his reputation...
Coniglio was terrible, Whitfield didnt like the attention and Cameron just sooked all night and couldnt be bothered.
Harry..what could have been? just keeps missing.
Wouldnt mind Haynes from GWS....
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 03, 2020, 09:48:44 PM
Now that the season is officially over, send Cripps home to be with his girl, she needs him we dont. Start the surgeries, delistings and keep playing the Dows, Polsons, SPSs, McGoverns, Obriens et al. trade/delist them at seasons end. Tell Simmo, Eddie, Levi there Farewell games are next week.
Biggest problem they face over the preseason is how to get them to kick it through the big sticks more often than not.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: kruddler on September 03, 2020, 09:48:51 PM
Geezus Krud out of all the carp that was dished up tonight by so many players that was the moment?? No worries carry on.
Were you watching the coverage?

This was from Channel 7, not me.

This was their choice, their words.

Don't shoot the messenger.

...and for the record, its not that i don't like Willo (for the record i liked Bower!) its that he has too many brain explosions.

I named 3 in the 1 game without even trying.
All 3 were highlighted by the coverage.
If you didn't see them, so be it. But you cannot deny it.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: 31Tommys_barber on September 03, 2020, 09:50:11 PM
Can’t hold off the opposition all night with only 4 players in defence! Did SPS play? Polson a trier but not up to it.
Our older players looked tired, so am I, owies,honey, O’Brien maybe one or two others now as the charade is over. Let’s improve draft position for trades
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 03, 2020, 09:50:42 PM
Yep forgot about him GTC, was a driver after half time and at least played to his reputation...
Coniglio was terrible, Whitfield didnt like the attention and Cameron just sooked all night and couldnt be bothered.
Harry..what could have been? just keeps missing.

Two weeks in a row H could have had big bags. Such a very long way to go to compete for a spot in the 8.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: shawny on September 03, 2020, 09:52:05 PM
Cream rose to the top and when they clicked into top gear in the last, as usual we have no one to change momentum and no one to make a stand when we need it most.  We are weak as all f*** when we need to be strong and opposition teams know it. To think we have had 5 full years to develop this list and still have no one of any presence when we need it most. Not one! And the midfield group is that undermanned it’s amazing we are even competitive.

HTF are we supposed to beat any decent team when our MC pick all three of Dow, Cottrell and Polson to play at the one time. I mean seriously how dumb are we to not realise that. None of those 3 are even close to AFL standard players and impossible to cover all 3. All that while we have actual players that can play in Kennedy, Cunningham and TDK in the 2nds. Go figure.

Simmo And Eddie are cooked and if either gets another contract we are a joke. I love both of these guys but their finished.

Unless we make some major ballsy trading calls this off season and imo most of our list (except Weitering Walsh and TDK) should not be off the trade table - no more next fking year - has to happen this trade period.  Just have to get some serious talent in otherwise this list will never be a serious contender.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: IvanAwfulbigone on September 03, 2020, 09:52:18 PM
10 players with less than 10 possessions.
These players remind me of some guys I work with. They turn up most days, accept a pay check every week, but they don’t actually DO anything.
Sam Walsh the exception tonight.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: LoveNavy on September 03, 2020, 09:52:31 PM
I feel confused 😕
It's like we get the game on our terms, leading most of the night. Then we somehow execute a U-turn undoing all the good work. Bugger me. How is that even possible?
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 03, 2020, 09:53:07 PM
SPS looked injured, should not have played.....
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 03, 2020, 09:54:30 PM
Two weeks in a row H could have had big bags. Such a very long way to go to compete for a spot in the 8.

He could've iced the game in the 3rd qtr. We should've been alot more than 15pts ahead at 3/4 time.

Oh well, we'll likely get to 8-9 then dwell on what might've been.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 03, 2020, 09:55:13 PM
Off to the backed, cracked and sacked thread.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 03, 2020, 09:55:45 PM
I feel confused 😕
It's like we get the game on our terms, leading most of the night. Then we somehow execute a U-turn undoing all the good work. Bugger me. How is that even possible?

Last two weeks have been super high stakes and unfortunately we $hit the bed both times after turning in front.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 03, 2020, 09:56:53 PM
Off to the backed, cracked and sacked thread.

Start with the Club's Shrink...lol.

At least we are at the thread in round 15 not round 3...lol.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: LP on September 03, 2020, 10:02:33 PM
McGovern in helps McKay who should have really put the game away.
Agreed.

I think our big problem is not McKay, McGovern or Casboult, our problem is rubbish kicking. Even when guys like McGovern and McKay have front position on the lead we kick it on their head, over and over and over again. Then fans slight the forwards because they can't take contested marks reliably. Nothing I saw tonight changes my opinion.

After a while we get gun shy, and start puling stupid short kicks and other toe stubbing rubbish, or kicking it long to Betts on the lead against two Giants! This is the bad old Carlton coming out, and something needs to change in this regard.
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 03, 2020, 10:04:02 PM
Eddie looks gone, played on the kid Aish and couldnt get near it all night....
Title: Re: Post Game .......: AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: crashlander on September 03, 2020, 10:18:33 PM
Said it in the in-game thread, but it needs to be repeated.

1.9 after quarter time, does NOT win you games.


And we were one of the best teams to watch not long ago. Since we've been on free-to-air TV again we've forgotten what got us there. We are not good enough yet. and it really irritates me. We had chances even late in the game. What's happened to Jack martin's left foot? Has it fallen off? And yet he was so good early.
I am tired of seeing the sort of rubbish we delivered.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: capcom on September 03, 2020, 10:21:12 PM
If there's a reason we recruited let alone play McGovern, I'd love to know it.

The manner in which we play half way reflects the standards we accept. Can't blame the umpires, blame the setup. 
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: shawny on September 03, 2020, 10:21:34 PM
Pittonet is honest but all those that were saying after 2 games we should retire  Kruezer as we have a replacement are kidding themself.

Kruezer on half a leg contributes more Pittonet around the ground his kicking for goal is horrendous.

TDK looks to have big future but losing Phillips for Pittonet as well as choosing Eddie over butler are more trades that make you scratch your head.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: crashlander on September 03, 2020, 10:26:09 PM
Agreed.

I think our big problem is not McKay, McGovern or Casboult, our problem is a rubbish kicking. Even when guys like McGovern and McKay have front position on the lead we kick it on their head, over and over and over again. Then fans slight the forwards because they can't take contested marks reliably. Nothing I saw tonight changes my opinion.

After a while we get gun shy, and start puling stupid short kicks and other toe stubbing rubbish, or kicking it long to Betts on the lead against two Giants! This is the bad old Carlton coming out, and something needs to change in this regard.
Our kicking tonight was diabolical. I couldn't watch it. Time and again, we had open targets to think too slowly or to kick/handball too poorly.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 03, 2020, 10:31:47 PM
I feel confused 😕
It's like we get the game on our terms, leading most of the night. Then we somehow execute a U-turn undoing all the good work. Bugger me. How is that even possible?
We Are Carlton
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: shawny on September 03, 2020, 10:32:18 PM
Our kicking tonight was diabolical. I couldn't watch it. Time and again, we had open targets to think too slowly or to kick/handball too poorly.

Why does our poor kicking surprise you? Surely you are used to it by now. Been the same for as long as I can remember.

Reckon we are lucky to have 20% of our list that you would say are decent users by foot.
The rest are hit and miss at best.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 03, 2020, 10:34:04 PM
Start with the Club's Shrink...lol.

At least we are at the thread in round 15 not round 3...lol.
You know I was thinking that very thing, I normally put the line through the names in rnd 5 or 6, I lasted until 15!
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: crashlander on September 03, 2020, 10:34:36 PM
I know we all vent in this threat, and often with excellent reasons, but sometimes you wonder about the thought processes at our club. This year's financial debacle will cost us places on our list and probably reduce our salary cap.

This year's changes to the game have made small scores the norm. Very few teams get on top and stay there for a whole game. There have been more goalless quarters this season than there have been in a century.

So, it would seem that our players and coaches are not aware of this. We can't train them hard with another game coming so soon, but we must make changes. There is no 2nds game this week for guys to impress the selectors. Our one true star needs a rest. He is delivering nothing.

So, what can we do about it? Probably not much now. It is too late. But I hope we learn something from these games. And since we cannot run our players into the dirt, then let them all practice goal kicking until Tuesday.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 03, 2020, 10:36:41 PM
Eddie looks gone, played on the kid Aish and couldnt get near it all night....
Constantly slipped over, in his day when presented with the opportunities he got tonight, would have have pulled out the tricks, danced around the defenders and bag 4 or 5. Father time has caught up to him.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Macca37 on September 03, 2020, 10:37:43 PM
What do we do with Harry?  Since coming to Carlton his kicking style has not changed nor has his accuracy.  Being a left footer, if he can't kick straight now he's not going to change.

Prior to tonight's game his goal kicking accuracy was 37.9%.

It just came to mind that he may become our modern version of Anthony Rocca - great hands but a heartbreaker when kicking for goal.  
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 03, 2020, 10:38:41 PM
Our kicking tonight was diabolical. I couldn't watch it. Time and again, we had open targets to think too slowly or to kick/handball too poorly.
To a man, they will cringe when they review the tape of that game.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 03, 2020, 10:40:03 PM
Why does our poor kicking surprise you? Surely you are used to it by now. Been the same for as long as I can remember.

Reckon we are lucky to have 20% of our list that you would say are decent users by foot.
The rest are hit and miss at best.
Again, a couple of things have not changed in years:
- Goal Kicking
- Field Kicking
- Softness mentally when the heat is on.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Micky0 on September 03, 2020, 10:44:10 PM
And since we cannot run our players into the dirt, then let them all practice goal kicking until Tuesday.
Great idea
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Micky0 on September 03, 2020, 10:45:16 PM
Again, a couple of things have not changed in years:
- Goal Kicking
- Field Kicking
- Softness when the heat is on.
Disagree they are soft. They go hard but then fall away and I think that’s fitness, Sam
Walsh stands out because the kid does not stop, has elite endurance and thank god we have him!
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: kruddler on September 03, 2020, 10:45:23 PM
So, what can we do about it? Probably not much now. It is too late. But I hope we learn something from these games. And since we cannot run our players into the dirt, then let them all practice goal kicking until Tuesday.

I don't think we can even do that.

After the game a GWS player was interviewed and they brought up GWS' poor accuracy. He said that they can't even practice goal kicking because there are no goal posts where they are training! WTF?!

I'm not sure if we are training at the same place as GWS, but thats pretty poor.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: shawny on September 03, 2020, 10:45:38 PM
Again, a couple of things have not changed in years:
- Goal Kicking
- Field Kicking
- Softness when the heat is on.
Add in technique kicking into forward 50. Still have no system.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 03, 2020, 10:46:16 PM
Disagree they are soft. They go hard but then fall away and I think that’s fitness, Sam
Walsh stands out because the kid does not stop, has elite endurance and thank god we have him!
I meant soft mentally, not at the contest. Edited.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: crashlander on September 03, 2020, 10:56:09 PM
Sorry, the last post wandered a bit: too much to say and I didn't say any of it well. I'll do better this time,

[1] The drop in effectiveness of Marc Pittonet:
One of the major reasons we have been less effective in recent times is that Pittonet is not performing as he was earlier in the year. Other coaches appear more aware of him and his strengths and weaknesses. Lately we've seen too much of his weaknesses.
His ruckwork, his strength, has not been as good lately. His confidence is down. As a result he is doing very little around the ground. he really needs to work on his weaknesses.

[2] Casboult's drop in form:
In many ways Casboult's drop in form has radically altered our forward structure. He is down on confidence and that is a huge part of his game. Maybe he needs to be dropped. Or maybe he needs a few weeks in defence, like he had last year. It would give either Jones or Weitering a rest and he would have someone leading him to the ball.

[3] Two ruck problem:
Young Tom de Koning is looking luck our ruck future. But he is still young and get pushed around too easily. if we are going to play him in the seniors, then we need to move out one of the talls. Our forward line cannot afford as many talls.
So far, when we have played two rucks, it hasn't worked as well as we could hope. Can we afford to continue that? In some ways, we must. We need to get games into de Koning. But not with our present forward structure.

[4] Willo:
I have been writing for some time that we could try Willo in other roles. At the moment, he has run out of gas. he is making mistakes because he is tired.
I'm not surprised. He probably didn't expect to play as much as he has with the injuries he's had. He needs to build his fitness up. That way he probably won't make as many errors. But he is done for 2020. I'd seriously like to see if he can play other roles, because we need flexibility.

[5] Cripps:
I'd rest him this coming game for starters. He has worked himself into the ground and he doesn't have the reserves that he normally has.
I'd also spend the summer working on his weaknesses. really working on them. I want to see Cripps bright eyed, bushy tailed and super fit when 2021 starts.

[6] Harry McKay:
Harry promises much, much continually fails to deliver. He isn't holding his marks. When he leads, he leads to the wing. And when he gets the ball he is kicking at less than 50%. We really need to get him turned around during the summer. If he grabs those marks and makes the most of his opportunities, we won't be kicking a handful of goals per game. But the last few weeks his kicking for goal has been around 20%. Not good enough, and it brings the team down with him.

There, that makes a little more sense.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Spanner on September 03, 2020, 11:07:07 PM
Looking at SOS's drafting over the past 5 years and it's looking pretty fu(k!ng average.

I don't think I've seen a worse skilled side play the game. Dow is a bust, can't run, can't kick and can't get the ball. How was he rated at pick 3?

McKay recruited as a full forward at pick 10. How the fu(k can't a supposed specialist full forward not know how to kick? He's not the only one with this issue, but you would hope the guy recruited as the full forward for the club wouldn't be so flakey. Is anyone confident when he's kicking for goal? Me neither...

So many other high draft picks can't even get a game and yet we still have people lauding SOS's time at the club.

We're playing so many older hacks because it's quite obvious the younger high draft picks are not coming on as expected.

This craps me no end when you look at what Brisbane has managed to achieve yet we're still shyte all over the ground. How the fu(k can that be? Brisbane lost so many high draft picks to the go home factor, but still managed to assemble a competitive side.

We've been rebuilding for what seems like an eternity, and getting nowhere as a result. Carlton, where high draft picks go to die. Something is seriously wrong with this club.

It's time to say goodbye to Murphy, Simpson, Kreuzer and any other player from this unsuccessful era and focus on the younger guys in the hope they change the losing mentality if this fu(king club.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Lods on September 03, 2020, 11:40:49 PM
Two weeks ago the 'Blues were back.'
Results are all over the shop and being influenced by so many different factors.

The season is wrong for so many reasons.

The shortened game times.
Short breaks between games.
Players away from home, family  and routine.
Hub life and the distractions.
The lack of a proper second tier competition to allow players to develop or even maintain match fitness when not in the senior side.
Virtually no time for training between games.

The sooner it's over the better.
I'd send Cripps home.
He's broken physically...and has other issues that must be playing on his mind..
In a normal season such a move would be unthinkable but I don't think many would begrudge him the break.

Anyone in the hub that hasn't had a game needs to be given a taste.
Now the chances of finals are no longer a consideration let them loose and tell them to take the game on.



Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Inboltswetrust on September 03, 2020, 11:49:43 PM
MacGovern is a fraud.   Takes money pretending to play football.  Awful recruiting decision.

Betts is finished.   Casboult is so down he'd drop a pie.   Useless.

So ducking angry right now.




Wonder if they'll purge my post again (as usual) for been honest and realistic.  Anyway, here we go.  The issue with Carlton is a simple one.  We have a 'training wheels' coach who is struggling.  There is no plan 'b'.  Shut down the run and gun, and we go to water.  That is a system issue.  Secondly Silvangni... he butchered about 5 top ten picks in the painful rebuild.  Dow, Seton, Mackay?, Obrien, Cunners, Stocker, etc.etc. the list goes on.  That is why he was sacked.  But too late for us.  So that is a personnel issue.  Thirdly, we keep holding on to the players that create the 'losing culture'.  They are the senior players such as Murphy, Simpson, Kernow etc.etc. that have known nothing more than losing throughout their illustrious careers.  They need to go.  That is a cultural issue.  Finally, the board.  We will not accept that we are not moving in the right direction.  We simply aren't.  The club will be in the doldrums for another 10 years.  It is a Terry Wallace 'rebuild of a rebuild.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Mantis on September 03, 2020, 11:51:01 PM
I’m with Lods.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 04, 2020, 12:32:22 AM
Two weeks ago the 'Blues were back.'
Results are all over the shop and being influenced by so many different factors.

The season is wrong for so many reasons.

The shortened game times.
Short breaks between games.
Players away from home, family  and routine.
Hub life and the distractions.
The lack of a proper second tier competition to allow players to develop or even maintain match fitness when not in the senior side.
Virtually no time for training between games.

The sooner it's over the better.
I'd send Cripps home.
He's broken physically...and has other issues that must be playing on his mind..
In a normal season such a move would be unthinkable but I don't think many would begrudge him the break.

Anyone in the hub that hasn't had a game needs to be given a taste.
Now the chances of finals are no longer a consideration let them loose and tell them to take the game on.




I think Teague said in his presser "mathematically we are a chance", he's is either delusional, bumped his head or both  so expect more rubbish selections masked as "picking a side to win".
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 04, 2020, 12:43:37 AM
Some of the stuff was hard to watch. The bit of play were Willo and Jones stuffed it up deep in defence by waiting for the other to go only for the GWS fwd to pick it up and kick the goal was embarrassing. Another was two on one in our favour and Hill (I think) out marks them and kicks the goal. Hard to watch that. On a couple of occasions, our players stood waiting for the ball instead of attacking it only to have it intercepted and taken away. I guess our ladder position reflects where we are at, we didnt deserve to make the 8.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Mantis on September 04, 2020, 02:18:16 AM
Hard to imagine another win.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Professer E on September 04, 2020, 03:53:55 AM
So angry.... So confused... So uncertain where this list is going.

For starters, I've never seen so many blokes simply drop off the cliff,  it's like any sense of form and spirit has evaporated.  They're physically on the field,  but hardly contributing when there.

I'd be making wholesale changes,  we need to who we need to preserve with - we know what a lot of this crew can and can't do,  the old blokes are cooked and too many others are fried.  Others are taking the piss attitude-wise  and need to be rooted out.

Cripps is the classic example.   We all know he's a quality player,  but right now he's a liability,  playing like he's broken.   Why?   WTF is the club doing about it? Why persist with him in this state?    I could name 20 others.... Its bewildering the way they've dropped away, totally unfathomable.

Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: LP on September 04, 2020, 07:11:06 AM
Eddie looks gone, played on the kid Aish and couldnt get near it all night....
They know all his tricks, it makes it tough for Betts and he hasn't got someone like Tex clearing his path to goal, McKay is yet to learn about the reward of sacrifice and wants to be the man 100% of the time, but that doesn't mean Betts isn't playing a useful role in the team!

Two weeks in a row we've missed easy goals due to rubbish skill errors, ignoring BTs commentary bullcrap about how hard it is to kick across your boot on the run which only muddies the thought process with fantasy.

I hope that the club has set Betts to spend some time with guys like McKay and Martin to iron out those little glitches and it will add 10 goals a season to both players!

But there is worse. Last night two or three times I watched GWS run down or close out our ball carriers by running right past Carlton team-mates unhindered, it's will be clear as day on the replay. On one occasion it was Casboult spectating, on two others it was Williamson. Both players made zero effort to hinder the approaching GWS player and both times it either cost us a easy goal or awarded GWS an easy goal. No opponent should ever get a clear run past one of our players towards a team-mate, ever! It basically cost us the game!
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 04, 2020, 07:17:03 AM
So angry.... So confused... So uncertain where this list is going.

For starters, I've never seen so many blokes simply drop off the cliff,  it's like any sense of form and spirit has evaporated.  They're physically on the field,  but hardly contributing when there.

I'd be making wholesale changes,  we need to who we need to preserve with - we know what a lot of this crew can and can't do,  the old blokes are cooked and too many others are fried.  Others are taking the piss attitude-wise  and need to be rooted out.

Cripps is the classic example.   We all know he's a quality player,  but right now he's a liability,  playing like he's broken.   Why?   WTF is the club doing about it? Why persist with him in this state?    I could name 20 others.... Its bewildering the way they've dropped away, totally unfathomable.


True, I guess we got sucked in again by the hype. What last night and last week taught us is when the whips are cracking in a finals type game and the pressure mounts, we aren't good enough. Two weeks in a row, too many non contributors, we cant have that. Two weeks in a row, virtually no score in the second half. Blame it on the shorter qtrs, hub, blame it in players being tired, homesick, injured, whatever. I dont buy it, its the same for everyone. Two weeks in a row, brain fades, skill errors (or lack off) and too many passengers cost us games. GWS only needed 1 fair dinkum qtr to put us away. As I said earlier, I reckon our group (coaches included) will find that one hard very to watch.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: BluePhantom on September 04, 2020, 07:25:58 AM
I can't work out who is wearing some numbers?
Like no. 11? Who the fu$k is that out there. Did someone win a raffle to get a game with Carlton? $hame on you for embarra$$ing that great no.
Also no. 5? Now you see him now you don't.
And no. 2? WTF?

Need a BONAFIDE full fwd. Harry (i can mark but kicks like crap) McKay is not the one. I hear Tex from Adel is looking for a kick?  :)) 
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Professer E on September 04, 2020, 07:56:57 AM
BP....those numbers in the backs of the players (2, 5 & 11) are paid for by members.

Members who are over paying the wages of players who play like they don't give a f.....
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: madbluboy on September 04, 2020, 08:16:55 AM
I was happy with the effort, much better than last week.


Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: flyboy77 on September 04, 2020, 08:20:55 AM
Quote
HTF are we supposed to beat any decent team when our MC pick all three of Dow, Cottrell and Polson to play at the one time.

This.

Thought Polson went ok, haven't watched the whole game yet...

Seriously, we pick an out of form Levi over TDK = dumb.

Dow - where's his head at?

SPS - play him where he belongs. Why do we persist with such 'tactics'?

Cripps - should not have played. Barely on one leg.

That's where the game was lost - about 8 dumb selections or non selections.

Cuners, TDK, O'Brien (or even bloody Lang) and Kennedy for (say) Levi, Cripps, Cottrell and Dow - we win.

Why didn't Teague throw Martin or Betts or even Guv into the guts in the last - he looked liked a stoned deer in the coaching box. This is becoming a problem.

He appears to have it's an "our way" or nothing mentality.

Needs some serious help in the coaching department - Hodge and/or Solomon yes please.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Hubba on September 04, 2020, 08:38:59 AM
Some of the stuff was hard to watch. The bit of play were Willo and Jones stuffed it up deep in defence by waiting for the other to go only for the GWS fwd to pick it up and kick the goal was embarrassing. Another was two on one in our favour and Hill (I think) out marks them and kicks the goal. Hard to watch that. On a couple of occasions, our players stood waiting for the ball instead of attacking it only to have it intercepted and taken away. I guess our ladder position reflects where we are at, we didnt deserve to make the 8.

This is a great point....

I mean how many times in the last few weeks have we been punished for waiting for the ball.
Or not having the awareness or talk around a contest.
When the first instinct isn't the hunger to get the ball is a big issue.

Dow's career is on the line and did anyone see him chase with any desperation?

Simmo and Eddie couldnt keep their feet a big sign age has caught up with them.

Walsh and Weitering have covered up some pretty big cracks this season.

Last three games will be very interesting with must win games against the Swans and Crows.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Micky0 on September 04, 2020, 08:43:46 AM
Things I was saying during the game last night were repeated by mainly Hodge a minute later; which means even I can see what we were doing wrong.

I think that just shows that we’ve run out of puff and don’t have the personnel to be a top team. The bad stuff was glaringly obvious so I have no doubt Teague knows exactly what needs improving.

We have just run out of steam and really considering cripps has not had a good season, we’ve probably done better than expected.

Was Kennedy injured? How come he wasn’t picked?

Having slept on it, I feel a lot more optimistic for next year. Let’s hope we get our players fit!

Still sucks that our season is over now, especially those of us in Vic who are enduring lockdown and it was at least giving us some joy.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Hubba on September 04, 2020, 08:49:48 AM
One positive that I want to mention was Ed's bravery backing back into that contested Mark.

Talk about leading by example. 
Should finish top 3 in our B&F
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 04, 2020, 08:52:13 AM
Things I was saying during the game last night were repeated by mainly Hodge a minute later; which means even I can see what we were doing wrong.

I think that just shows that we’ve run out of puff and don’t have the personnel to be a top team. The bad stuff was glaringly obvious so I have no doubt Teague knows exactly what needs improving.

We have just run out of steam and really considering cripps has not had a good season, we’ve probably done better than expected.

Was Kennedy injured? How come he wasn’t picked?

Having slept on it, I feel a lot more optimistic for next year. Let’s hope we get our players fit!

Still sucks that our season is over now, especially those of us in Vic who are enduring lockdown and it was at least giving us some joy.
Next year, we say that every year, "they will lift next year". I think we have peaked with this group, I cant take the next step. Probably finish the same position next year, the problems (inaccuracy and by default goalless qtrs, brain fades) still exist. I cant see how they will be fixed other than by bringing new personnel...again.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Micky0 on September 04, 2020, 08:56:57 AM
Disagree. We have definitely improved from last year. Cripps has played sore all season, it’s been fast turnaround games etc.

I would like to see a huge jump by Samo next year. Martin is a gun. Harry’s marking was superb last night. When we pull it together, we look fantastic. Some of our plays this year, I couldn’t believe it was a Carlton team.

Need much much more out of Gov too - will be interesting to see where he ends
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 04, 2020, 08:59:55 AM
Disagree. We have definitely improved from last year. Cripps has played sore all season, it’s been fast turnaround games etc.

I would like to see a huge jump by Samo next year. Martin is a gun. Harry’s marking was superb last night. When we pull it together, we look fantastic. Some of our plays this year, I couldn’t believe it was a Carlton team.

Need much much more out of Gov too - will be interesting to see where he ends
I didnt say we havent improved, I am talking about taking the next step. Also selections were very bad. If you are expecting more from Samo and Gov, you are going to be disappointed.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Micky0 on September 04, 2020, 09:05:49 AM
Last night they said GWS had kicked more in their last quarter than they had in the rest of their games, a number of time - I think that’s what I heard?

They have also been finalists for years and are a well drilled Cohesive team. Eg of Jones and Willo not knowing what the other was doing, will only improve.

Got to look at the positives, was so pissed at our capitulation last game and this one but playing experienced outfits so what can you expect.

Had we given ourselves just out of top 8 at beginning of year, I would’ve been happy with that.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Micky0 on September 04, 2020, 09:21:56 AM
Can’t say we didn’t have opportunities

After quarter time, 42 F50 entries for one goal 😤 take those opportunities and they wouldn’t have come back!
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Shakin77 on September 04, 2020, 09:23:10 AM
What a strange game.

So frustrating because again we did so much right but couldn't get the job done and a finals spots goes begging.  

Strange game.   GWS dominated the general play early, but kept us in it and somehow with 7 inside 50's we manage 4 goals.   We dominate the play for the next two quarters and extend our lead by 2 points.   We had many chances to put some scoreboard pressure on but left the door open.   Again for a 2nd week our pressure was good while it lasted.   I think next time we need to put a Carlton jumper on Nick Haynes to save time.   We picked him out so often.   Thought it was more our ball movement than his intercept marking, but he is elite in that area.   We still lack composure moving the ball inside 50 and I agree with the desire to add a mid that can play inside and out.   Zac Williams style.    Again we won the contested ball and our clearance work was good.

Some tough calls need to be made by the MC in the coming games/weeks.   With finals gone it's time to rest a few and give a few younger guys games.

Walsh and Weiters were both awesome. 

Betts fumbled and dropped chest marks.   It's important we keep him around the club, but it would be mad to offer him another year.   Our inability to bring the ball to ground deep inside 50 didn't help him or Fisher.

Setters was slow to start but finished with 9 contested possessions.   Building nicely.

Levi has gone from chocolates to boiled lollies.   The only part that has saved him is that he is more than a capable 2nd ruck.

Pitto was solid against Mummy.    He has had 3 gettable set shots this year and really needs to start nailing them.   Needs to have more impact and hurt the oppostion on the scoreboard.   But wrapped with his output this season.

I thought the backline was fantastic as a general rule.   Jones is amazing with ball in flight.   Scary with ball in hand and cost us at least one goal and should have been two.   I really liked Willo's game.   Thought he was great and still developing.   Only played 29 games.   Just a baby.

I didn't think Polson did a lot wrong.   Yeah he didn't have a big influence on the games but a lot of the criticisms are unfounded.   Like last week.  

Dow struggled.   IMO I would still give him games.   He was stronger around the contests than I previously remember, but struggled to spread and have a impact in general play.     The concern with Cripps, Setters, Dow and Kennedy we are a very one paced midfield.

SPS was a non event last night.   But again needs game time.

Big H.   9 marks and 3 contested.    Hit the scoreboard for Christ sake.

McGovern was disappointing.   Got his hands to it inside 50 but couldn't hold onto them.  Thought he worked pretty hard.

Cottrell looks a natural replacement for E.Curnow.   Needs to tidy up a few things.

All in all a lot of positives, however a lot of work to be done.





Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Micky0 on September 04, 2020, 09:34:08 AM
What’s with Govs continuous too early leaping for the ball?
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: rocky on September 04, 2020, 09:42:31 AM
My takeouts from the game for what it's worth.
Betts - Why they haven't rested this bloke defies all logic. Regardless of his output last night one of the few who puts pressure on in F50 100% of the time. Feel sorry for him. They are flogging a dead horse.
Casboult - Has not played a good game since the club got fined for his family's COVID indiscretion. Seems like it doesn't take much for his head to go AWOL.
Cottrell - Very quiet. Maybe getting dropped for no reason affected him. God knows head cases seem to be common amongst this group.
Cripps - Match committee obviously thought we were a better chance of winning with him in the team. They were wrong .... AGAIN
Curnow - Same old same old. Put this blokes commitment into all the other useless C&%$s bodies and we would not lose a game.
Docherty - Actually think he got better as the game went on. Amongst our best.
Dow - They just need to play him now for the rest of the year just to see if he can get some touch or confidence. Not giving up on him yet.
Fisher - Quiet but he has some real skill and always looks dangerous when the ball is in his hands.
Jones - Played reasonably well but every time, and I mean every time he goes near the ball I s#!t myself. 
Martin - Thought he was good. We are a better team with him in the side.
McGovern - Bloody hell, what a disaster this pick-up has been, Shows nothing. Gets a rare mark inside 50 and can't even make the distance.
McKay - Serious deficiencies in his kicking. Could be SO much better. Why can't we fix it? Even the goal he kicked in the first from 15m out directly in front JUST scrapped in FFS.
Murphy - No impact and maybe he gets a rest. Another who could have kicked a crucial goal at a crucial time and just stuffed it. Hard to understand his hesitation.
Newnes - Another quiet one. Still he competes and kicks the odd goal. Persist.
Petrevski-Seton - Pathetic. Soft, lazy and disinterested.
Pittonet - Did better than I thought he would to tell you the truth, but he just doesn't do enough around the ground and his kicking at goal is worse than Harry's.
Polson - Not nearly as bad as people make out and last night he was actually better than last week IMO. Like Dow, needs to be played for the rest of the year and if no MAJOR improvement delisted. 
Sam Walsh - Another solid effort by the kid. showing up a lot of our more experienced players. If he doesn't win the B&F should get the most consistent (if we have one?)
Setterfield - You'd think being in reasonable form and playing against your old club you would turn it up a notch but he didn't and just had no influence.
Simpson - Needs to be rested with Eddie, but probably won't. No point in playing him any longer unless it's for a farewell game.
Weitering - Our best I thought. Should have the B&F wrapped up.
Williamson - No point in trying to defend this bloke. Get's bagged a lot but 1. One of the few GOOD LONG kicks in our team and 2. Is being played off half-back. Let’s play him on a wing and utilise his attributes
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 04, 2020, 09:46:12 AM
Last night they said GWS had kicked more in their last quarter than they had in the rest of their games, a number of time - I think that’s what I heard?

They have also been finalists for years and are a well drilled Cohesive team. Eg of Jones and Willo not knowing what the other was doing, will only improve.

Got to look at the positives, was so pissed at our capitulation last game and this one but playing experienced outfits so what can you expect.

Had we given ourselves just out of top 8 at beginning of year, I would’ve been happy with that.
And thats exactly what we have been conditioned to expect. Fark that, I wanted to make the 8. If you want to talk hypotheticals and told  me at the start of the year we were going to just miss the 8, I would have said,hypothethetically, dont bother with the season then. I dont get that way of thinking. Again, not saying we havent improved, just saying the same issues/deficiencies exist.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Lods on September 04, 2020, 09:50:53 AM
When Ross Lyon starts criticising your drop off in scoring you've got a problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkfDku2-wLE
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Micky0 on September 04, 2020, 10:38:58 AM
And thats exactly what we have been conditioned to expect. Fark that, I wanted to make the 8. If you want to talk hypotheticals and told  me at the start of the year we were going to just miss the 8, I would have said,hypothethetically, dont bother with the season then. I dont get that way of thinking. Again, not saying we havent improved, just saying the same issues/deficiencies exist.
I get what you’re saying and would’ve agreed last night - I’m sick to death of sitting on or near the bottom. Just trying to see some positive in what has been an all round crap year.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Thryleon on September 04, 2020, 10:45:20 AM
So, in the cold heart of the next day, I can review a turning point of sorts.

Pittonet scores instead of hitting the post, and we blow the lead out to the largest of the match.

Does that do enough to break the GWS resolve and win us the game?

Maybe.  we had plenty of opportunities up to that too.

Yesterday was yet another game that was riddled with positives and negatives all in one.

We have absolutely decreased our reliance on Cripps, which is probably the most positive thing to come out of this season.  I noticed Setterfield getting in De Boers grill yesterday.  Cripps really needed this as much as the team did.

Plenty of positives there to see.

Dont retire anyone too quickly.  Sometimes players affect our team in ways we dont understand.  Even McGovern who has been poor, has shown that we do better with him in than out as a unit.

Plowman too.  Pittonet in his first full season has battled admirably.  Will be interesting if he can start dominating games.  Liam Jones was a bit of a chook raffle early on when he moved down back.  Has developed into an admirable defender.  Just goes to show, let them settle, build their confidence.  We havent done much of that over the last few years.

Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 04, 2020, 10:58:44 AM
I get what you’re saying and would’ve agreed last night - I’m sick to death of sitting on or near the bottom. Just trying to see some positive in what has been an all round crap year.
I hear ya brother.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: LordLucifer on September 04, 2020, 11:00:15 AM
We need to face the facts, we are frauds !!

Yes, that's right, frauds !!

We are not on the cusp of success, we are another 2-3 years away, we still need to "restructure" our playing list.

Last night's game confirmed a lot of things for me, the first being that our coaching panel definitely needs a revamp. Teague is new and still learning the caper but he needs some strong support around him.

The second is that we have a number of players in the the team who just aren't up to AFL standard and won't ever be.

Weitering & Walsh were superb and really cared. Williamson & Curnow tried hard and got belted around the body for it too.  Outside of those chaps, the rest can GAGF !!!!

It is imperative that we find a replacement for Jones at CHB, he cost us two goals last night with his indecision and in a low-scoring match, that was the difference. Sure he punched hard from behind and took a hanger but that's not the only things we need from him. It's been a good experiment but we are not going to transform into a genuine contender with him constantly making so many costly errors.   

McGovern .......... free to  a good home, i'm over his lack of effort and skills.

McKay ......... if you can't kick for crap then you shouldn't be playing in the big league. It's one thing to take some strong marks but as a key forward, we expect you to kick at least 50% of your set shots. His kicking style is all wrong, he has a bent leg which means he doesn't get full distance or accuracy.

Docherty has become a liability too. He isn't the calm and assured player we normally expect, I'm not sure we can persist with him playing like this for too much longer.

Murphy got plenty of it but some of his disposal was woeful.

Cripps is a non-event, we'd be better of dropping him and letting some of the others have a go. I've nearly convinced myself that we should trade him to one of the WA clubs for two players & two first rounders.

Simpson has to retire, time is up.

Newnes, apart from that great chase & tackle, there wasn't a lot else.

Polson is just not up to it, let's stop with the charade.

Cottrell is Mitch Robbo-lite, his attack on the contest is terrific but his disposal is errant.

Pittonet cannot kick over a jam-tim !! He did beat Mummy in the ruck but he doesn't take marks around the ground nor kick goals, he is just filling a spot until we unearth someone better.

Betts ......... just retire !! I've had enough of the party tricks (eg. swinging the ball around his waist like a basketballer when he ran out of bounds), your job is to (a) stand up, not slip over & (b) kick some goals and you are failing on both accounts.

Dow is a bust, nice goal in the first but spent the rest of the game jogging around in a meaningless fashion. Trade him if he wants to go.

Casboult .......... what has happened to him ?? He's out of contract and did nothing to earn another one, if he gets an offer to jump ship just let him go.

Fisher tried valiantly but didn't have much impact.   

Petrevski-Seton .............. I didn't even know he was playing until the third quarter, he's on the trade table.

Martin had that great chase & tackle but went downhill from there, I noticed he leans back on his kicks which makes his long shiots at goal drift to the left.

Setterfield was "so-so" mainly trying to handball his way out of trouble, I'm losing confidence in him by the week.

Do you think I'm angry ............ damn right I am.

I'm not advocating that we enter into another rebuild but we desperately need to address at least 8 of the players running around last night, we will never ever progress if we keep them on the playing list.

 
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 04, 2020, 11:02:59 AM
So, in the cold heart of the next day, I can review a turning point of sorts.

Pittonet scores instead of hitting the post, and we blow the lead out to the largest of the match.

Does that do enough to break the GWS resolve and win us the game?

Maybe.  we had plenty of opportunities up to that too.

Yesterday was yet another game that was riddled with positives and negatives all in one.

We have absolutely decreased our reliance on Cripps, which is probably the most positive thing to come out of this season.  I noticed Setterfield getting in De Boers grill yesterday.  Cripps really needed this as much as the team did.

Plenty of positives there to see.

Dont retire anyone too quickly.  Sometimes players affect our team in ways we dont understand.  Even McGovern who has been poor, has shown that we do better with him in than out as a unit.

Plowman too.  Pittonet in his first full season has battled admirably.  Will be interesting if he can start dominating games.  Liam Jones was a bit of a chook raffle early on when he moved down back.  Has developed into an admirable defender.  Just goes to show, let them settle, build their confidence.  We havent done much of that over the last few years.


Fair post Thry, I still reckon Eddie and Simmo in particular have run their race. They looked really old, I am not for a minute solely blaming them for the loss. I was surprised and nervous when Simmo went and stood Greene at the opening bounce. I cant recall if Simmo followed him up the ground but deep fwd, I thought that was a horrible match up early.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 04, 2020, 11:22:16 AM
After all that, the season is glass half full despite the frustrations the year has brought. We've only played one bad game but a number of frustrating ones. We have been highly competitive against any side, but lacked the composure to go out and finish sides off when on top. Last qtrs in big games under pressure have killed us. 4 sides in the 8, 2 in the top 4 we had control of of to let it slip. So we are good enough, no composed enough. Alot of gains this year, about where we should be, but it could've been so much better. 6-8 really should be 8-6. When you've had a losing mentality for years suddenly being in a position to win games and play finals was something we couldn't cope with. Part of the process I suppose. We couldn't kick that extra goal to really put the heat on the opposition and continually left the door ajar for them by not having the composure to both use the ball and to kick straight when needed. Last 7 second halves has resulted in us scoring 13.42! Not going to win alot kicking at goal like that. Had to have been 2-3 more wins if that was 42.13, or even 25.20. It's been nice to be playing for finals 3 games out, such a lovely change, but brings a much higher level of frustration too when it goes wrong. Win last night and we likely make with our draw. Swans did the right things by us, we got out to 15pts up at 3/4 time but sadly $hit the bed again. So rather than be out of the 8 on percentage we are now 2 games out. Overall the the progress has been good but there is still so much to get right to keep taking steps.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 04, 2020, 11:22:42 AM
Delete.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 04, 2020, 11:32:05 AM
After all that, the season is glass half full despite the frustrations the year has brought. We've only played one bad game but a number of frustrating ones. We have been highly competitive against any side, but lacked the composure to go out and finish sides off when on top. Last qtrs in big games under pressure have killed us. 4 sides in the 8, 2 in the top 4 we had control of of to let it slip. So we are good enough, no composed enough. Alot of gains this year, about where we should be, but it could've been so much better. 6-8 really should be 8-6. When you've had a losing mentality for years suddenly being in a position to win games and play finals was something we couldn't cope with. Part of the process I suppose. We couldn't kick that extra goal to really put the heat on the opposition and continually left the door ajar for them by not having the composure to both use the ball and to kick straight when needed. Last 7 second halves has resulted in us scoring 13.42! Not going to win alot kicking at goal like that. Had to have been 2-3 more wins if that was 42.13, or even 25.20. It's been nice to be playing for finals 3 games out, such a lovely change, but brings a much higher level of frustration too when it goes wrong. Win last night and we likely make with our draw. Swans did the right things by us, we got out to 15pts up at 3/4 time but sadly $hit the bed again. So rather than be out of the 8 on percentage we are now 2 games out. Overall the the progress has been good but there is still so much to get right to keep taking steps.
Good post Jim, agree with it. But where or how does the improvement in composure come about? Is it one of those things you have or you havent? With another preseason and some serious work on his kicking, I can see H taking a game apart. He did everything right the last two weeks except kick a bag. So I can see how H can improve that aspect. Non contributors can be turfed, I get that. But the decision making which in turn relates to composure? Thats the bit I cant see ATM, and I am looking straight at the leaders and more experienced players here. Time will indeed tell.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 04, 2020, 12:02:02 PM
Good post Jim, agree with it. But where or how does the improvement in composure come about? Is it one of those things you have or you havent? With another preseason and some serious work on his kicking, I can see H taking a game apart. He did everything right the last two weeks except kick a bag. So I can see how H can improve that aspect. Non contributors can be turfed, I get that. But the decision making which in turn relates to composure? Thats the bit I cant see ATM, and I am looking straight at the leaders and more experienced players here. Time will indeed tell.

It's something you learn. Alot of sides, athletes etc, branded as chokers have learned to cope and gone on to win flags, gold medal, major tournaments etc. Once you have that composure alot of those other aspect can fall into place. It's something Richmond went through for quite a while. Often it's a part of development and comes with confidence. Once we get start to get that and a winning mentality that falls into place. Some players then with puff their chest out, feel more confident and feel like leaders.

We've been a typical sides that have been losers for years suddenly, in one year, have had to cope with the sudden expectation of trying to play finals. Mentally we weren't ready at all. Physical improvement was well ahead of the mental improvement.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: capcom on September 04, 2020, 12:02:22 PM
As a forum group, we're clearly annoyed

Justifiably so.  Just so many dud picks, it astounds me.  It is what it is, but it's also what it shouldn't be.  Exasperating
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: WASurfer on September 04, 2020, 12:18:29 PM
Only caught the second half but seriously, if we can't recruit blokes who can kick properly then it doesn't matter which 22 are out there or which 45 you have in the squad! I'd struggle to find anyone who'd you'd say is "elite" with ball in hand. The kicking into the forward line after 1/2 time was about as poor as it gets. And when McKay does get it, he's a 1 in 4 chance of kicking it....if he's our key forward, those odds will kill us.

Weitering was superb again and can hold his head pretty high all year. Walsh too.....but the rest drop away pretty quick.

Hate to say it but Cripps looks cooked for the year and should probably be "managed" for the rest of the season. He's a liability when he's kicking it....can't sugar coat it.

Dow had 8 possessions....if there's a suitor at the end of the year then seriously have to take what we can get. Not his fault he was taken at pick 3 but he's simply not up to AFL level.

Easy to say we've improved but it could be SO much worse. Newnes after the siren shot was a miracle.....if not for Jones' head we would've lost the Essendon game and gave up a 5 goal lead to Geelong who nearly pinched it. If those games had gone the other way, we'd have 3 wins for the year and I reckon things wouldn't be quite as "level headed" as they are at the moment.

If we don't throw some serious cash and draft picks at the trade table this year and chase some Free Agents (who can kick), then we're set for a longer stint in the nether regions of the ladder. Other than Walsh and Weitering I can't think of too many other of the younger/earlier draft picks that are standing up to it....too early to comment on the 2019 draft picks.

Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 04, 2020, 01:29:05 PM
Dow is still playing U18 football, his kicking is one thing but his nous and awareness is poor and either he hasnt been coached well or he cant mentally handle the upgrade playing senior footy.
He has decent size, shape and can do the odd good piece of play like his goal vs GWS was well thought out but in general field play he becomes a novice kid like he is playing his first game.
On the wing he was cornered, ran into trouble and should have been pinged for throwing the ball but he gave up mentally in that contest, turned it over and couldnt think it through. He really needs a mentor like Chris Judd to work with if he is going to make it IMO or another club who might be able to coach him differently and make him grow up a bit quicker.
You look at Walsh and its like he is a 30 year old veteran comparing him to Dow who looks like a 1st year rookie...
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Micky0 on September 04, 2020, 01:48:40 PM
Walsh sure is something. Exactly what we needed, thank goodness we picked him.

Tbh I felt like Dow wasn't excited to be there - i watched the first quarter again and after his goal, the celebration was all pretty lacklustre. Maybe he'll be another that leaves and does better in another team.

wouldn't mind those 2 GWS players that have the blonde ponytails (memo - that fashion is well over!) - they were both so solid last night.  Himelberg I think and the one at the back that marked everything that - in fairness to us - we kicked directly to him.

Re accuracy, the better teams also cough it up, but they don't stop, they are relentless and don't go to sleep for a quarter or two.  So errors are not as costly because they work so hard in the contest until the siren.  for us, we make a mistake and it's like crickets, no one bothering to try again and again and again.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: WASurfer on September 04, 2020, 01:50:27 PM
Haynes for them is a superb player....up there with Jeremy McGovern IMH as an intercept marking defender. He reads it so well and uses it well too.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 04, 2020, 01:53:32 PM
Walsh sure is something. Exactly what we needed, thank goodness we picked him.

Tbh I felt like Dow wasn't excited to be there - i watched the first quarter again and after his goal, the celebration was all pretty lacklustre. Maybe he'll be another that leaves and does better in another team.

wouldn't mind those 2 GWS players that have the blonde ponytails (memo - that fashion is well over!) - they were both so solid last night.  Himelberg I think and the one at the back that marked everything that - in fairness to us - we kicked directly to him.

Re accuracy, the better teams also cough it up, but they don't stop, they are relentless and don't go to sleep for a quarter or two.  So errors are not as costly because they work so hard in the contest until the siren.  for us, we make a mistake and it's like crickets, no one bothering to try again and again and again.

Haynes is the one down back and will be AA, wouldnt mind him in a Blues jumper, great endurance and one of the better intercept marks in the comp. Himmelberg looks good at times but never does enough IMO but was good after half time.
Thought Haynes, Greene and new kid Riccardi won them the game, the rest of the GWS group were very low impact.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Shakin77 on September 04, 2020, 02:00:15 PM
SOS tried on a couple of occasions to get Haynes before he was this Haynes.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Shakin77 on September 04, 2020, 02:01:56 PM
Tbh I felt like Dow wasn't excited to be there - i watched the first quarter again and after his goal, the celebration was all pretty lacklustre. Maybe he'll be another that leaves and does better in another team.

I don't know what to make of this.   Is this a knock on Dow's personality?      Needs to be more extroverted?
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 04, 2020, 02:03:17 PM
Haynes is the one down back and will be AA, wouldnt mind him in a Blues jumper, great endurance and one of the better intercept marks in the comp. Himmelberg looks good at times but never does enough IMO but was good after half time.
Thought Haynes, Greene and new kid Riccardi won them the game, the rest of the GWS group were very low impact.
One at the back, one in the middle, one up front. Greene was the one for mine, pushed up the ground, got the ball and did a Pendlebury where everything slowed down around him. Cool, calm, collected and just found the right option.Haynes just marked everything most of the night. You'd reckon they would have worked out they needed to kick it slightly longer.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Shakin77 on September 04, 2020, 02:08:45 PM
Got give Dow some time.   Another that is 42 games in.  Yeah there are guys like Walsh who hit the ground running, but he is an athletic beast.

Plenty in his draft year that a yet to hit their straps.    I am not convinced he is going to be a star or even a good player but he needs time.

This from Deisel 24 days ago who doesn't tend to pull his punches.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/08/10/he-should-be-playing-blues-great-pushes-youngsters-case/

Quote
“I think it’s a maturity thing with him. He should be playing," the dual Brownlow Medallist said.

“He’s got to earn his spot … I’m not there at the moment but there’s no reason why he shouldn’t be playing and if he’s not, another pre-season will help him.

“It’s a maturity thing but he’s got power that kid, he’s quick and skilful.”

Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 04, 2020, 02:11:39 PM
One at the back, one in the middle, one up front. Greene was the one for mine, pushed up the ground, got the ball and did a Pendlebury where everything slowed down around him. Cool, calm, collected and just found the right option.Haynes just marked everything most of the night. You'd reckon they would have worked out they needed to kick it slightly longer.
Amazing player really is Greene , isnt [email protected] but takes marks, imposes himself on the game and brings others into the game. Thought Coniglio was terrible, just laughed at Mummy who spent the first ten minutes trying to clean up every navy Blue body he could, laughed again when Cripps dumped his fat ar$e in a tackle too in the middle of the ground...GWS were putrid last night and how the coach got a two year extension baffles me.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: capcom on September 04, 2020, 02:27:02 PM
Got give Dow some time.   Another that is 42 games in.  Yeah there are guys like Walsh who hit the ground running, but he is an athletic beast.

Plenty in his draft year that a yet to hit their straps.    I am not convinced he is going to be a star or even a good player but he needs time.

This from Deisel 24 days ago who doesn't tend to pull his punches.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/08/10/he-should-be-playing-blues-great-pushes-youngsters-case/

Totally over him.  Classless
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Shakin77 on September 04, 2020, 02:30:23 PM
Totally over him.  Classless

Good analysis.   
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Professer E on September 04, 2020, 02:44:52 PM
X2 .  Very quick to flog his "expertise" too all and sundry, including clubs he should know better about.  He last played 20 years ago,  long before zones, team defences etc etc.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: capcom on September 04, 2020, 02:50:00 PM
Good analysis.   

Thank you
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 04, 2020, 02:50:28 PM
Got give Dow some time.   Another that is 42 games in.  Yeah there are guys like Walsh who hit the ground running, but he is an athletic beast.

Plenty in his draft year that a yet to hit their straps.    I am not convinced he is going to be a star or even a good player but he needs time.

This from Deisel 24 days ago who doesn't tend to pull his punches.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/08/10/he-should-be-playing-blues-great-pushes-youngsters-case/


Athletic...yes...Skillful is very debatable especially in traffic...he does need games but the club is at the crossroads in terms of development of youth vs results. You cant play all your kids if you want to win games and you can only play the kids who are showing the best form IMO.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: pew2 on September 04, 2020, 02:57:12 PM
said all year our game plan is NO Good ,kicking the ball u12 style the bomb into our fwdline expecting some1 to mark it and the opposition know this and away they go with quick ball movement to there open forwards line resulting in easy goals. Our forward coach try something different like GOV is quick off the mark rest of forwards make space so his got room to lead . eg stephenson v plowman last week set up nicely .We are lucky that we won a couple of close games  or else bottom 5 team.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 04, 2020, 03:03:43 PM
As a forum group, we're clearly annoyed

Justifiably so.  Just so many dud picks, it astounds me.  It is what it is, but it's also what it shouldn't be.  Exasperating

Unfortunately thrown in the deep end from the start, same with a few of ours. They kids needed lesser roles while the more established took the tough roles. Even Weitering suffered but fortunately he got himself back. How many of us were doubting him. We shot their confidence.  Not every player is a Sam Walsh and can jump straight into it.

Bet if Dow went to Richmond he'd be a good player. Thing is it is our fault. May well have picked a decent player but used him very poorly.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 04, 2020, 03:04:41 PM
said all year our game plan is NO Good ,kicking the ball u12 style the bomb into our fwdline expecting some1 to mark it and the opposition know this and away they go with quick ball movement to there open forwards line resulting in easy goals. Our forward coach try something different like GOV is quick off the mark rest of forwards make space so his got room to lead . eg stephenson v plowman last week set up nicely .We are lucky that we won a couple of close games  or else bottom 5 team.

Or unlucky we lost some close ones, we'd be in the 8.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Tragic on September 04, 2020, 03:33:33 PM
Some perspective.  Remember 9thmond? 

It took them years of being middle of the road to becoming a powerhouse. 

The old two steps forward one step backwards, and sometimes one step forward, two steps backward.

Our list profile was absolute rubbish 5 years ago.  In my eyes it's better now.  Some of SoS's picks and trades won't (and some certainly haven't) come off.  That's standard practice.

I've mentioned a few times previously, that after doing all that trading and drafting, a time will come when some of our high hopes will not make it, and they will exit the club.  And then it's time to target very specific players (Tom Papley/ Zac Williams etc...) to replace them.

Teague has had 1 preseason with the club...

Charlie Curnow has missed the entire year and some...

We are getting more players to the 50 - 100 game bracket.  Importantly, playing together ...

We have more developing youth coming through, and it only takes 2 or 3 of them to step up...

Please, please, please land 2 or 3 good/very good ready to go players via trade/draft/free agency...
 
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 04, 2020, 03:43:51 PM
Some perspective.  Remember 9thmond? 

It took them years of being middle of the road to becoming a powerhouse. 

The old two steps forward one step backwards, and sometimes one step forward, two steps backward.

Our list profile was absolute rubbish 5 years ago.  In my eyes it's better now.  Some of SoS's picks and trades won't (and some certainly haven't) come off.  That's standard practice.

I've mentioned a few times previously, that after doing all that trading and drafting, a time will come when some of our high hopes will not make it, and they will exit the club.  And then it's time to target very specific players (Tom Papley/ Zac Williams etc...) to replace them.

Teague has had 1 preseason with the club...

Charlie Curnow has missed the entire year and some...

We are getting more players to the 50 - 100 game bracket.  Importantly, playing together ...

We have more developing youth coming through, and it only takes 2 or 3 of them to step up...

Please, please, please land 2 or 3 good/very good ready to go players via trade/draft/free agency...
 

Some good points...Richmond had the big trade period with Caddy, Nankervis and Prestia and then developed the small pressure forwards on mass game plan which took them to a premiership.
We probably need a game plan that suits our glut of tall forwards which is where our list differs from most other clubs....Tigers have a high skill level, was amazed to hear they are a very low possession team but are just super efficient..
Think they have one player only  in the top 30 possession winners in the comp.
Poor kicking and bad decision making players might be the thing that holds us back unless we make some brave calls and cull players that are poor users of the ball even though they might be seen in our best 22 for other reasons..
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: tonyo on September 04, 2020, 03:48:35 PM
This is certainly not the time to throw out the baby with the bath water.....

I can remember watching guys like Nick Vlaustin, Shane Edwards, Dylan Grimes, Kane Lambert etc when they first started playing, and thought they would be average at best - but Richmond held their nerve (including keeping Hardwick) and backed their list.   The proof of that pudding is in their trophy cabinet.

As Nick Reiwoldt has pointed out, the undefinable glue is 'chemistry', and I have seen far more of that this season.  Defense is pretty good, midfielders have by and large held their own.  We could certainly use some more running power in these two areas.

However, the glaringly obvious work-in-progress is the mid to forward connection, and finishing.  I honestly think this is where we have missed Charlie and Jack Silvagni badly this year, as they are our best lead-up forwards by a mile.  The current forwards do not make their moves fast enough, and we end up clogged and get nothing for our hard work.  The third quarter last night was the most frustrating I have watched all season.  We should have been 5-7 goals up at 3/4 time, and it's game over.

But this season is full of should-have-beens.....
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Professer E on September 04, 2020, 03:49:46 PM
Some positives I can find,  dredging through another season of crap.

1.  We've won games based on a more even spread of contributors, not just say Cripps or Judd or some other key figure getting fifty possessions.
2.  Key forwards haven't gotten hold of us like in previous years.   Weitering and Jones (albeit he is chaotic at times) have largely done the job.   But they need capable smaller defenders doing their job around them.
3.  Surely there is still vast internal improvement within the list. 
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: LP on September 04, 2020, 04:05:00 PM
I can remember watching guys like Nick Vlaustin, Shane Edwards, Dylan Grimes, Kane Lambert etc when they first started playing, and thought they would be average at best - but Richmond held their nerve (including keeping Hardwick) and backed their list.  The proof of that pudding is in their trophy cabinet.
 Geez, they cut away a lot of big name big reputation dead wood coaches though!
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: LP on September 04, 2020, 04:08:29 PM
FMD, after nearly 12 weeks of being the most exciting team to watch in the competition, just one dud game against GWS and the media are all over Carlton delivering a shizen to watch slugfest!

Back to normal! ;D

Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Thryleon on September 04, 2020, 04:10:51 PM
FMD, after nearly 12 weeks of being the most exciting team to watch in the competition, just one dud game against GWS and the media are all over Carlton delivering a shizen to watch slugfest!

Back to normal! ;D



Can say what they like, Luke Hodge was lauding our ability to make it hard for GWS to play their game last night.

It was dissapointing not to score, but they know we are coming.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Blue Moon on September 04, 2020, 04:16:01 PM
After last night's game I think we are both not far off being a good side yet still a million miles away. A lot of people have been critical of Dow but I thought his role was that of a defensive half-forward on Williams who didn't have an influence of the game. I would have liked Dow to win the ball more however. People have also been critical of Samo and Polson, (some are always critical of Polson), but I am not sure there opponents got much of the ball. I thought that Williamson and Jones combined to make three critical errors that cost us three goals, and considering we lost by nine points, these mistakes were costly.
I thought GWS came to play and the fact we stayed with them and then went ahead for most of the game was a positive, however I am not sure the team is fully committed to the game plan yet. I remember watching Sydney last year and watching how every Sydney player new exactly what to do. Basically Sydney have had two coaches in the past 19 seasons and there game plan is basically the same. We have had seven different coaches, each with there own styles. There has been no continuity in how we are suppose to play. I think Teague wants the players to drive the ball deep to the tall marking options at the top of the square, and I think the players want to do that, but under pressure they go short to players on fast leads 45 meters out.
I think while we won the inside contest quite well, when GWS won it in close they were more devastating getting it outside to their runners. And while we had in our F50 more, because we didn't deliver the ball to dangerous situations, and we didn't make the most of our opportunities, and because of our defensive errors, GWS was more effective when they went forward in the end.
We just need to get better at kicking goals.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Micky0 on September 04, 2020, 04:45:13 PM
I don't know what to make of this.   Is this a knock on Dow's personality?      Needs to be more extroverted?
Isn’t there a rumour going around he wants to be traded? I thought maybe he doesn’t want to be At the club. Yes he’s young and I was rapt for him when he got that goal early but many contests afterwards he spectated.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Baggers on September 04, 2020, 04:47:01 PM
This Jekyll & Hyde stuff is getting beyond a joke! The Midgets were much better than us in the 1st but wasteful... we go inside 50 a few times for an incredible return/efficiency. Then the game is ours for two qtrs and can't convert. Then we go soft between the lugholes for about 10 minutes, enough time to hand them the game, then for a short period late in the game we own the game but stuff up everything. One off? Nuh... it's what we do... did it last week as well. We had 2 good sides in struggling form on toast in consecutive weeks yet become an undisciplined rabble for just enough time to give our struggling opponents the game. How many games this year have we owned for an extended period, only to turn out being our own worst enemies when our opponents get desperate and applied the screws? Poos in pants. All between the ears... still. Where's the mental toughness?

The Good:
We led for most of the night.
Weitering.
Walsh.
Boldness, taking risks.
We saw plenty of tenacity (but more cold ruthlessness & mental focus/toughness needed).
1st qtr i50 efficiency.

The Bad:
Final qtr capitulation, or rather a 10 minute capitulation but, hey, that's all it takes to lose (though we did wrestle back control late to only lose system and composure).
Failure to capitalise on created opportunity ...big time.
Forwards failure to adapt to increased pressure from opponents/lack of creativity and playing to strengths... got too individualistic.
Casboult's form.

The Ugly:
Disposal efficiency - symptom of panicky [email protected] under pressure/mental fragility. When opponents apply real pressure we become a kind of 'kick and hope' group aka lose confidence aka mental weakness aka poos in pants.
Goal kicking though it does relate to above.

To say we have improved on previous years is absolutely correct BUT we consistently and persistently repeat the same mistakes that cost us wins - how many games this year have we had a qtr or two or just a 10 minute period of total capitulation, it's become habitual, predictable, almost ingrained. It'll be a cliche soon... our regular habit of surrender for a period. What worries me the most is that it seems so damned ingrained and you just wait for it to happen in every game.

Is it 'Henny Penny Sky Is Falling?' Nuh. Our weaknesses are glaring but we need people who can really address and remove these weaknesses from our game, our players, their heads!!!! Heading in the right direction? Yep, but to repeat the previous sentence we now need people who can force and secure 'the next step' - we're ready for new blood, ruthless new blood, uncompromising new blood, not 'sentimental' new blood (I can only assume when some blokes continue to perform poorly and we allow them senior selection that the MC is too sentimental)... new blood who've come from winning environments. And that starts with some changes in 1. the coaching box (can I repeat - a coupla assistants who've come from a winning culture?) and 2. the introduction of a coupla new, experienced, successful players from a strong, winning culture.

(Reposted to here... where it should have been in the first place, doh!)
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 04, 2020, 05:26:12 PM
FMD, after nearly 12 weeks of being the most exciting team to watch in the competition, just one dud game against GWS and the media are all over Carlton delivering a shizen to watch slugfest!

Back to normal! ;D


Two dud (FIlth and GWS) very important games.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: rocky on September 04, 2020, 05:40:28 PM
One final post on this thread for me. As bad as it has been for us long suffering supporters over the last 20 years (bar a couple of cameo years) I truly believe we have improved over that time. I remember back in the days when I first signed up to this blog a defeat usually had 15 to 20 pages of some serious vitriol. Nowadays it doesn't seem so bad or as savage. There are a fair amount of measured comment in amongst the angst. Then again maybe we've just been beaten into submission. On to next year.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 04, 2020, 06:11:03 PM
Reality check: I watched the game again and GWS were carp and turned up half baked expecting us to roll over after losing to Collingwood, they played about 20 mins of reasonable football and won the game and thats what sucked after we led all night.
They had three good players and we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory and what made it worse you could see it coming as a spectator. GWS were building with Greene leading the way and we just let it happen.
If you combine both our second halves from the last two weeks we have kicked one goal over the total period of a game, thats Mark Arceri stuff.
Leadership on the field has to get better, instead of slowing the game down and reducing momentum(Luke Hodge said same) we just continued to do the same stuff that was getting us nowhere.
Cripps and Docherty need to take more control and direct play better than they are doing....probably missing Daisy Thomas as a experienced winning voice on the field who could direct traffic and read the game better.

Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Shakin77 on September 04, 2020, 07:18:19 PM
Isn’t there a rumour going around he wants to be traded? I thought maybe he doesn’t want to be At the club. Yes he’s young and I was rapt for him when he got that goal early but many contests afterwards he spectated.

Be using “rumour” very loosely.   Haven’t seen this anywhere worth noting.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 04, 2020, 07:36:46 PM
This Jekyll & Hyde stuff is getting beyond a joke! The Midgets were much better than us in the 1st but wasteful... we go inside 50 a few times for an incredible return/efficiency. Then the game is ours for two qtrs and can't convert. Then we go soft between the lugholes for about 10 minutes, enough time to hand them the game, then for a short period late in the game we own the game but stuff up everything. One off? Nuh... it's what we do... did it last week as well. We had 2 good sides in struggling form on toast in consecutive weeks yet become an undisciplined rabble for just enough time to give our struggling opponents the game. How many games this year have we owned for an extended period, only to turn out being our own worst enemies when our opponents get desperate and applied the screws? Poos in pants. All between the ears... still. Where's the mental toughness?

The Good:
We led for most of the night.
Weitering.
Walsh.
Boldness, taking risks.
We saw plenty of tenacity (but more cold ruthlessness & mental focus/toughness needed).
1st qtr i50 efficiency.

The Bad:
Final qtr capitulation, or rather a 10 minute capitulation but, hey, that's all it takes to lose (though we did wrestle back control late to only lose system and composure).
Failure to capitalise on created opportunity ...big time.
Forwards failure to adapt to increased pressure from opponents/lack of creativity and playing to strengths... got too individualistic.
Casboult's form.

The Ugly:
Disposal efficiency - symptom of panicky [email protected] under pressure/mental fragility. When opponents apply real pressure we become a kind of 'kick and hope' group aka lose confidence aka mental weakness aka poos in pants.
Goal kicking though it does relate to above.

To say we have improved on previous years is absolutely correct BUT we consistently and persistently repeat the same mistakes that cost us wins - how many games this year have we had a qtr or two or just a 10 minute period of total capitulation, it's become habitual, predictable, almost ingrained. It'll be a cliche soon... our regular habit of surrender for a period. What worries me the most is that it seems so damned ingrained and you just wait for it to happen in every game.

Is it 'Henny Penny Sky Is Falling?' Nuh. Our weaknesses are glaring but we need people who can really address and remove these weaknesses from our game, our players, their heads!!!! Heading in the right direction? Yep, but to repeat the previous sentence we now need people who can force and secure 'the next step' - we're ready for new blood, ruthless new blood, uncompromising new blood, not 'sentimental' new blood (I can only assume when some blokes continue to perform poorly and we allow them senior selection that the MC is too sentimental)... new blood who've come from winning environments. And that starts with some changes in 1. the coaching box (can I repeat - a coupla assistants who've come from a winning culture?) and 2. the introduction of a coupla new, experienced, successful players from a strong, winning culture.

(Reposted to here... where it should have been in the first place, doh!)

Unfortunately, that's all part of progress of from zero to top side. We unfortunately have to go through alot of $hit during various stages of improvement. Same in any sport. Takes alot of work and doesn't happen overnight, even more so this year when you can't train with your full team, and not train much anyway with shortened breaks between games.  This year really favored the hardened, experienced team, who have they game style set in stone.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 04, 2020, 07:40:41 PM
Reality check: I watched the game again and GWS were carp and turned up half baked expecting us to roll over after losing to Collingwood, they played about 20 mins of reasonable football and won the game and thats what sucked after we led all night.
They had three good players and we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory and what made it worse you could see it coming as a spectator. GWS were building with Greene leading the way and we just let it happen.
If you combine both our second halves from the last two weeks we have kicked one goal over the total period of a game, thats Mark Arceri stuff.
Leadership on the field has to get better, instead of slowing the game down and reducing momentum(Luke Hodge said same) we just continued to do the same stuff that was getting us nowhere.
Cripps and Docherty need to take more control and direct play better than they are doing....probably missing Daisy Thomas as a experienced winning voice on the field who could direct traffic and read the game better.

Yes, we've kicked 1.9 combined in the last 2 second halves. We had the shots in the 3rd qtr but kept missing. Last 7 second halves have been similar....13.42! Opportunities but inability to kick straight. Cost us games.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Micky0 on September 04, 2020, 07:45:19 PM
Good post re Daisy, he was a leader on field for sure.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Baggers on September 04, 2020, 09:14:16 PM
Unfortunately, that's all part of progress of from zero to top side. We unfortunately have to go through alot of $hit during various stages of improvement. Same in any sport. Takes alot of work and doesn't happen overnight, even more so this year when you can't train with your full team, and not train much anyway with shortened breaks between games.  This year really favored the hardened, experienced team, who have they game style set in stone.

Agree. I'm sure we're close, but the next step requires that injection of newness... not a lot, but just enough to 'freshen' the message, hence changes in the coaching box. And most importantly, get assistants in who come from ruthless success / winning. Blokes who know the sacrifices, blokes who can recognize who will hurt to win.

Although I totally agreed with Mick McGuane's challenging article, I cannot see us retiring Tractor, Simmo, Edwardo or even Murphy all at once. Hey, pretend you don't know Simmo's age... and then watch his contribution match day - it's still there. Our most dangerous forwards over the past two weeks in big games have included Edwardo.

I'd be more inclined to trade away the 'experiments' that haven't worked. Cuningham is one, Moore is another. Cuningham would have currency but he just doesn't fit our need for consistency. Other clubs would welcome a 'burst' bloke on the outside who can break lines but then vanish for a while - that's a luxury we cannot afford. Tractor is the big one... and only the club knows if his body can handle a vigorous pre season then another season - I think not, ruck coaching - yep.

We're gong into a draft period with new cats at the helm. As we know I was not and am not a big wrap for SOS, no rose coloured glasses just because he was a champion player - hey, in a tv interview he claimed we would have taken Dow even if we had first pick. Plus we missed every big name we went after except for Martin who literally fell into our laps.

We've 3 games to go and I really hope we DO NOT play kids for the sake of it, positions must be earned. PLUS I really hope we DO NOT gift out of form experienced players. Macreadie, Philp and O'Brien have been knocking at the door.

I also like the suggestions from some here to be a little bold with experimentation, not enough to unsettle the side, though. Giving Jones a lash up forward would be worth trying along with Casboult down back as his forward work for more than a month now has been [email protected] and he seemed to relish his time down back. Just thoughts.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Inboltswetrust on September 05, 2020, 12:17:37 AM
Next year, we say that every year, "they will lift next year". I think we have peaked with this group, I cant take the next step. Probably finish the same position next year, the problems (inaccuracy and by default goalless qtrs, brain fades) still exist. I cant see how they will be fixed other than by bringing new personnel...again.

We will only improve when they finally give the board the arse.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Inboltswetrust on September 05, 2020, 12:21:02 AM
Dow is still playing U18 football, his kicking is one thing but his nous and awareness is poor and either he hasnt been coached well or he cant mentally handle the upgrade playing senior footy.
He has decent size, shape and can do the odd good piece of play like his goal vs GWS was well thought out but in general field play he becomes a novice kid like he is playing his first game.
On the wing he was cornered, ran into trouble and should have been pinged for throwing the ball but he gave up mentally in that contest, turned it over and couldnt think it through. He really needs a mentor like Chris Judd to work with if he is going to make it IMO or another club who might be able to coach him differently and make him grow up a bit quicker.
You look at Walsh and its like he is a 30 year old veteran comparing him to Dow who looks like a 1st year rookie...


I'm from Swan Hill where Dow was recruited from. I actually know his father well.  The knock on Dow was always his kicking...all through his junior footy.  This is not something that should have gone unnoticed by a shrewd recruiter.  You simply have to do your homework before you select someone with pick 3.  We didn't.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 05, 2020, 08:05:45 AM
We will only improve when they finally give the board the arse.
How does giving the board the ass improve our onfield.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 05, 2020, 08:23:58 AM
Says a bit. Things like this cost a season.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2020-carlton-david-teague-carlton-goal-kicking-carlton-gws-blues-giants-afl-round-15/news-story/dd6326cfe7a2760d6ff17b1c6fd2bc60?utm_source=afl_sportsmail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=crm&$3p=e_ab&$original_url=http://at.foxsports.com.au/link/dd6326cfe7a2760d6ff17b1c6fd2bc60?utm_source=afl_sportsmail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=crm&_branch_match_id=806814755332847399
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 05, 2020, 08:30:50 AM
Says a bit. Things like this cost a season.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2020-carlton-david-teague-carlton-goal-kicking-carlton-gws-blues-giants-afl-round-15/news-story/dd6326cfe7a2760d6ff17b1c6fd2bc60?utm_source=afl_sportsmail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=crm&$3p=e_ab&$original_url=http://at.foxsports.com.au/link/dd6326cfe7a2760d6ff17b1c6fd2bc60?utm_source=afl_sportsmail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=crm&_branch_match_id=806814755332847399
Yep, remember I said how Craig Jenning on SEN said many weeks go "Accuracy is king this year". He was absolutely spot on.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: kruddler on September 05, 2020, 09:00:14 AM
We need to face the facts, we are frauds !!

Yes, that's right, frauds !!

We are not on the cusp of success, we are another 2-3 years away, we still need to "restructure" our playing list.

You do remember the record this club has 12 months ago when Teague took over?
You do remember how LONG your sacked list was with basically the same playing group we have now?
You do realise that we were the worst this competition has seen for decades "Worse than Fitzroy" just last year?

Now, 12 months later we have basically proven we can match it with anyone on any given day, we just need to find more consistency.

You are calling us frauds for this?

We are frauds simply because you couldn't temper your expectations.
We are frauds simply because you got ahead of yourself.

Answer me this. How many other teams have improved more than we have in the last 12 months?
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Baggers on September 05, 2020, 09:03:25 AM
We will only improve when they finally give the board the arse.

IBWT, gotta say I like your stuff... but, sorry Cocko you couldn't be further from the mark on this one I reckon. Obviously the Board can't control the on-field stuff only who they appoint to be responsible for such things.

On this Board's watch our off-field situation has improved significantly. They got us back on course and had it not been for C-19 2021 would probably have seen the eradication of debt, huge debt, so they've sparkled in that dept.

When judging on-field, when off-field is pretty settled and heading in the right direction, you simply have to look at the same suspects: list management, list development, training and development, coaching and playing personnel, coaching and player support/further training and dev.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Baggers on September 05, 2020, 09:09:09 AM
Says a bit. Things like this cost a season.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2020-carlton-david-teague-carlton-goal-kicking-carlton-gws-blues-giants-afl-round-15/news-story/dd6326cfe7a2760d6ff17b1c6fd2bc60?utm_source=afl_sportsmail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=crm&$3p=e_ab&$original_url=http://at.foxsports.com.au/link/dd6326cfe7a2760d6ff17b1c6fd2bc60?utm_source=afl_sportsmail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=crm&_branch_match_id=806814755332847399

Strange thing is when I read the article and the very damning stats I felt buoyed. Why? Nothing better in life than when you've got a problem and you know exactly what it is. You can go straight to remedy, straight to solution. You get those things right and apply that to those stats and where are we?
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Shakin77 on September 05, 2020, 11:04:45 AM
You do remember the record this club has 12 months ago when Teague took over?
You do remember how LONG your sacked list was with basically the same playing group we have now?
You do realise that we were the worst this competition has seen for decades "Worse than Fitzroy" just last year?

Now, 12 months later we have basically proven we can match it with anyone on any given day, we just need to find more consistency.

You are calling us frauds for this?

We are frauds simply because you couldn't temper your expectations.
We are frauds simply because you got ahead of yourself.

Answer me this. How many other teams have improved more than we have in the last 12 months?


Good post in response to an average one
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Baggers on September 05, 2020, 11:13:53 AM
We need to face the facts, we are frauds !!

Yes, that's right, frauds !!

Oh Cloven Hooved One, I suspect you've ingested a dark soul or two to many.

I get that you're bitterly disappointed and that's because you're passionate, like so many of us BlueBaggers. And I sure have blown off steam from time to time as well and written things I wish I hadn't.

I reckon we really are on the cusp and our good has been so good that our bad looks even worse than it may very well be. Yep, our capitulations for periods in games is infuriating and symptomatic of a very real problem... but we know the problem, so that's why in the off season our player recruiting and coaching staff adjustments will be critical and crucial.

If you look at our older brigade only one has stunk the place up in the past month or two - Casboult. Mixed bag from Murph and at times is dreadfully unreliable for someone so skillful, but he's also got some things really right. Simmo and Edwardo, I reckon, have done their jobs well all things considered. Sheesh against Rottingwood Edwardo shone, and against the Midgets last Thursday Simmo was reliable, energetic and effective. As for the Tractor, sadly it would appear that him getting through a pre season then playing again next year might just be a bridge too far. We can't throw them all out.

Just wish the AFL would announce list sizes for next year... the delay is unacceptable, but maybe Gil is too busy sitting down to pheasant under glass, lobster thermidor, a Bin 95 Grange capped off with a Bear Extraordinaire flown in to his humble 5 star lockdown accommodation in QLD from the Baccarat Hotel in New York, to get around to such mundane tasks.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Blue Moon on September 05, 2020, 11:27:38 AM
Answer me this. How many other teams have improved more than we have in the last 12 months?
St.Kilda, Melbourne & Port Adelaide are the other big improvers this year. Port have gone from the middle to the top while St.Kilda & Melbourne have gone from the bottom to the middle like us. St.Kilda has bought itself into the middle while Melbourne are worse now than they were two seasons ago. I am disappointed about what has happened in the past two games and I am not certain about the future, however I still believe we might be on the cusp of something pretty big.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 05, 2020, 12:50:40 PM
Yep, remember I said how Craig Jenning on SEN said many weeks go "Accuracy is king this year". He was absolutely spot on.

Yes, in such a low scoring season you have to take every opportunity. Something we didn't do.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 05, 2020, 12:54:24 PM
St.Kilda, Melbourne & Port Adelaide are the other big improvers this year. Port have gone from the middle to the top while St.Kilda & Melbourne have gone from the bottom to the middle like us. St.Kilda has bought itself into the middle while Melbourne are worse now than they were two seasons ago. I am disappointed about what has happened in the past two games and I am not certain about the future, however I still believe we might be on the cusp of something pretty big.

Last two games, and a few others, have been encouraging that we could put ourselves in the right position even with the frustration.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 05, 2020, 01:08:02 PM
Last two games, and a few others, have been encouraging that we could put ourselves in the right position even with the frustration.
Yes Jim, despite that I dont accept this as good enough, at least we have put ourselves in a position to talk finals. Look at this way, last week v the Filth was an elimination final for us and we lost. Disappointed? You bet, but thats a far cry from a wooden spoon. 2021 the pressure will seriously come and if I had to pin point one item we need to fix pronto? Goal Kicking, right across the board. We get it in enough (we did even under Bolts), we just dont finish the job.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Macca37 on September 05, 2020, 01:59:26 PM


When we began the rebuild we expected to be top 4 as a minimum by now.  So much of that expectation was driven by the belief that Charlie and Harry would occupy centre half forward and full forward positions with small forwards feeding off them.  At first all went well. But where are we now with them?

Harry is physically fragile.  In addition he has a kicking style that ensures inaccuracy.  As I said earlier, being a left footer, if he hasn't changed it by now it's too late.

Charlie is also physically fragile.  Given his kneecap and knee injuries there must be a question mark over his long term future. Also keep in mind that we found out earlier this year that he has had structural knee problems since early teen years.

I don't see anybody on our current list physically strong and tall enough for either of those positions.  Even with a couple of new class midfielders the question remains : who is going to kick the goals?
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 05, 2020, 02:13:50 PM
Yes Jim, despite that I dont accept this as good enough, at least we have put ourselves in a position to talk finals. Look at this way, last week v the Filth was an elimination final for us and we lost. Disappointed? You bet, but thats a far cry from a wooden spoon. 2021 the pressure will seriously come and if I had to pin point one item we need to fix pronto? Goal Kicking, right across the board. We get it in enough (we did even under Bolts), we just dont finish the job.

Exactly! While happy with the progress and pleased where we have come if we accept it as good enough we won't progress further. While not surprising, given we were have come from, it made it no less frustrating. Gives us areas we need to work on.

We'll be expected to make the 8 next year so these things will need to be worked on. In such a low scoring season, where goals are a premium, 13.42 in the last 7 second halves just kill.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Shakin77 on September 05, 2020, 02:42:28 PM

When we began the rebuild we expected to be top 4 as a minimum by now.  So much of that expectation was driven by the belief that Charlie and Harry would occupy centre half forward and full forward positions with small forwards feeding off them.  At first all went well. But where are we now with them?

Harry is physically fragile.  In addition he has a kicking style that ensures inaccuracy.  As I said earlier, being a left footer, if he hasn't changed it by now it's too late.

Charlie is also physically fragile.  Given his kneecap and knee injuries there must be a question mark over his long term future. Also keep in mind that we found out earlier this year that he has had structural knee problems since early teen years.

I don't see anybody on our current list physically strong and tall enough for either of those positions.  Even with a couple of new class midfielders the question remains : who is going to kick the goals?

McKay, Curnow, TDK and McGovern will kick our goals.

It's important to look at the group as a collective and when you look at each player you can certainly find reasons why they won't make it.

Roughead and Franklin formed the Hawks key forward combo, but the original answer to who would kick their goals was Dowler, Thorp, Roughead and Franklin.

While some of them won't reach the expectations we set I think they will turn out ok.   As a collective group.

I don't understand why McKay as a left footer cant improve his kicking?   In two parts he can improve his accuracy by simply marking closer to goal with deeper inside 50's from the midfield and 2nd he always looks spent, sucking in deep breaths so improved endurance would also help with his set shot routine.  
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: flyboy77 on September 05, 2020, 02:50:41 PM

When we began the rebuild we expected to be top 4 as a minimum by now.  So much of that expectation was driven by the belief that Charlie and Harry would occupy centre half forward and full forward positions with small forwards feeding off them.  At first all went well. But where are we now with them?

Harry is physically fragile.  In addition he has a kicking style that ensures inaccuracy.  As I said earlier, being a left footer, if he hasn't changed it by now it's too late.

Charlie is also physically fragile.  Given his kneecap and knee injuries there must be a question mark over his long term future. Also keep in mind that we found out earlier this year that he has had structural knee problems since early teen years.

I don't see anybody on our current list physically strong and tall enough for either of those positions.  Even with a couple of new class midfielders the question remains : who is going to kick the goals?

Who are the big marking forwards at Collingwood?

The American aside, Mihochek? He's shorter than JSOS and the Guv.

Least of our issues.

#get the Bont!
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: crashlander on September 05, 2020, 02:52:13 PM
Just looking at the replay. Fair dinkum it was an ordinary game. Dull. Lots of players were slipping over, mostly our players. There were very few highlights of any sort. It was a grind. I don't know if either side deserved to win such a game.

The sorest thing was that it wasn't a once off. It is the way the game is headed.

I will be happy when the quarters are longer and conditions are back to 'normal'. Maybe then we'll see a few goals kicked.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 05, 2020, 03:09:28 PM
Who are the big marking forwards at Collingwood?

The American aside, Mihochek? He's shorter than JSOS and the Guv.

Least of our issues.

#get the Bont!
DeGoey is the Pies main weapon up forward..Mihocek plays as a defensive forward, Cox is a decoy who drags tall defenders to him, if he marks a few its a bonus. They roll with Thomas, Elliott, Stephenson and their mids to kick goals, its not viable though vs class teams and  IMO they may look at Ben Brown from Nth who would suit them given their highly skilled midfield who could hit him up.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 05, 2020, 03:23:42 PM
Just looking at the replay. Fair dinkum it was an ordinary game. Dull. Lots of players were slipping over, mostly our players. There were very few highlights of any sort. It was a grind. I don't know if either side deserved to win such a game.

The sorest thing was that it wasn't a once off. It is the way the game is headed.

I will be happy when the quarters are longer and conditions are back to 'normal'. Maybe then we'll see a few goals kicked.

Near all games ares the same.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: crashlander on September 05, 2020, 03:28:12 PM
Near all games ares the same.
Indeed, whether it is wet or dry is irrelevant: the game is just a slog at the moment. There was better scoring in the sixtiies when the ground were all mud!
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Shakin77 on September 05, 2020, 03:34:11 PM
We haven't played a game of football this year without at least one terrible quarter.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: capcom on September 05, 2020, 03:39:04 PM
You could say that for most teams
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Shakin77 on September 05, 2020, 03:44:40 PM
You could say that for most teams

Don't think so.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 05, 2020, 03:46:49 PM
Don't think so.
GWS played 20 mins of decent footy...
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: kruddler on September 05, 2020, 04:28:44 PM
We haven't played a game of football this year without at least one terrible quarter.
Dogs?
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Shakin77 on September 05, 2020, 04:49:12 PM
Dogs?

Yeah that's fair
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 05, 2020, 05:33:05 PM
GWS played 20 mins of decent footy...
If that
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Macca37 on September 05, 2020, 05:43:16 PM
McKay, Curnow, TDK and McGovern will kick our goals.

It's important to look at the group as a collective and when you look at each player you can certainly find reasons why they won't make it.

Roughead and Franklin formed the Hawks key forward combo, but the original answer to who would kick their goals was Dowler, Thorp, Roughead and Franklin.

While some of them won't reach the expectations we set I think they will turn out ok.   As a collective group.
I don't understand why McKay as a left footer cant improve his kicking?   In two parts he can improve his accuracy by simply marking closer to goal with deeper inside 50's from the midfield and 2nd he always looks spent, sucking in deep breaths so improved endurance would also help with his set shot routine.  

McGovern is an accurate kick, but given what he has offered so far he may not be with us long term.

As for Harry, have a look at his run up with a set shot. It's all so casual and he is swinging the ball left to right and depending where it is on the drop is the direction it goes.  Against Collingwood and again last night he had deliberate shots for goal from deep inside the right forward pocket, favouring his left foot.

He went with kicking across his body and both kicks went straight across the ground from where  he was kicking, landing in the opposite  pocket.  In recent weeks from the same position another shot went out of bounds. 

Maybe Newnes can show him how simple a run up can be.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 05, 2020, 05:45:52 PM
McGovern is an accurate kick, but given what he has offered so far he may not be with us long term.

As for Harry, have a look at his run up with a set shot. It's all so casual and he is swinging the ball left to right and depending where it is on the drop is the direction it goes.  Against Collingwood and again last night he had deliberate shots for goal from deep inside the right forward pocket, favouring his left foot.

He went with kicking across his body and both kicks went straight across the ground from where  he was kicking, landing in the opposite  pocket.  In recent weeks from the same position another shot went out of bounds. 

Maybe Newnes can show him how simple a run up can be.
Mate if it were me in charge, I would have Harry and the forwards doing nothing but goal kicking practice all week,
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: laj on September 05, 2020, 06:22:40 PM
We haven't played a game of football this year without at least one terrible quarter.

Been only about 3....Dogs, GC and Port Adelaide.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: BluePhantom on September 06, 2020, 08:54:28 AM
Mate if it were me in charge, I would have Harry and the forwards doing nothing but goal kicking practice all week,
Aren't they only allowed to have about 20 kicks before the sports scientist say they have to stop otherwise they'll injure themselves?
I remember playing baseball, pitchers were only allowed 20 throws at training and 100 in a game.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 06, 2020, 09:40:01 AM
Aren't they only allowed to have about 20 kicks before the sports scientist say they have to stop otherwise they'll injure themselves?
I remember playing baseball, pitchers were only allowed 20 throws at training and 100 in a game.
Correct and here lies the problem, they have become a hindrance instead of help.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: northernblue on September 06, 2020, 09:48:24 AM
McGovern is an accurate kick, but given what he has offered so far he may not be with us long term.

As for Harry, have a look at his run up with a set shot. It's all so casual and he is swinging the ball left to right and depending where it is on the drop is the direction it goes.  Against Collingwood and again last night he had deliberate shots for goal from deep inside the right forward pocket, favouring his left foot.

He went with kicking across his body and both kicks went straight across the ground from where  he was kicking, landing in the opposite  pocket.  In recent weeks from the same position another shot went out of bounds. 

Maybe Newnes can show him how simple a run up can be.

To me, H doesn’t look confident when kicking across his body... it’s like he’s thinking “I’ll just get this thing on it’s way...” rather than the old kick it to someone in the crowd trick.
I personally don’t care how laconic he “looks” when he kicks, as long as he can kick to afl standard.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: LP on September 06, 2020, 11:18:03 AM
To me, H doesn’t look confident when kicking across his body... it’s like he’s thinking “I’ll just get this thing on it’s way...” rather than the old kick it to someone in the crowd trick.
I personally don’t care how laconic he “looks” when he kicks, as long as he can kick to afl standard.
Fans underestimate the stress and pressure that kicking for goal in AFL presents to players, crowds or no crowds, and learning how to deal with it is part of the issue. When you watch the guys in the warm up from 45m to 50m out they kick at about 80%!

For example, in the absence of Rocca it's clear Casboult has taken a step backwards, this is all about head space and nothing to do with a physical change in such a short period of time. He's let the demons back into his head!

Plus I'm not going to underestimate the stupidity from the AFL of having a million new footballs available, if you take notice of the balls they use during the game you can see odd shapes of all sorts, it's like a lucky dip of finding a footy with the correct shape! Back in the old days the umpires would go through a bag of new footballs balls pre-game and pick the best one, now they have liquorice all sorts!
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: flyboy77 on September 06, 2020, 11:44:09 AM
To me, H doesn’t look confident when kicking across his body... it’s like he’s thinking “I’ll just get this thing on it’s way...” rather than the old kick it to someone in the crowd trick.
I personally don’t care how laconic he “looks” when he kicks, as long as he can kick to afl standard.

Fev's happy to help.

Get him and blokes like Kouta back in the fold.

Can't imagine they'd want much, if any, money?
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: spf on September 06, 2020, 11:50:12 AM
Fev's happy to help.

Get him and blokes like Kouta back in the fold.

Can't imagine they'd want much, if any, money?

While you're at it, get Fev to work with Cripps on his goal kicking. There is no system to Cripps and the rest him forward theory holds little value if he cannot kick goals.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 06, 2020, 12:04:19 PM
While you're at it, get Fev to work with Cripps on his goal kicking. There is no system to Cripps and the rest him forward theory holds little value if he cannot kick goals.
All our fwds have no system, H and Crippa in particular are "just walk in and kick it" types, no routine, no technique, no thinking through the kick. All the great fwds all had a routine they repeated over and over again. I find it ironic we can repeat errors in execution to perfection but cannot work on, improve and execute properly disposal and goal kicking. As I keep harping on about, as shambolic as our fwd line seems, we get it in plenty and have plenty of shots on goal, just too many behinds.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Baggers on September 06, 2020, 12:22:59 PM
While you're at it, get Fev to work with Cripps on his goal kicking. There is no system to Cripps and the rest him forward theory holds little value if he cannot kick goals.

In fact, all forwards. I bet he'd love to help out at minimal cost.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: capcom on September 06, 2020, 12:40:15 PM
Kouta could also teach a few how to take a bloody mark
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: spf on September 06, 2020, 01:04:30 PM
Kouta could also teach a few how to take a bloody mark

You know one of the best marks we had was Brad Fisher. I seem to remember an interview once (AFL record maybe) where he said something like he just watches the ball closely when asked about his marking. May be something in that - other players don't.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: blueboys_1 on September 06, 2020, 06:07:18 PM
You know one of the best marks we had was Brad Fisher. I seem to remember an interview once (AFL record maybe) where he said something like he just watches the ball closely when asked about his marking. May be something in that - other players don't.

Yes a great mark and always seemed to have time to lick his hands before he took the mark.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: 31Tommys_barber on September 06, 2020, 08:04:21 PM
Don’t need Fev we need who taught fev to change his grip to the different hand approach and to walk in a straight line at his target holding the ball still and in line with his drop target. Then it’s just swinging your leg straight. Can’t remember who it was but Fev will. 
 Capper was an ugly style kick but he never had to kick far and never had to extend himself just stuck to simple and kicked 100 in a season
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 06, 2020, 08:08:18 PM
Don’t need Fev we need who taught fev to change his grip to the different hand approach and to walk in a straight line at his target holding the ball still and in line with his drop target. Then it’s just swinging your leg straight. Can’t remember who it was but Fev will. 

R Lyon
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: northernblue on September 07, 2020, 08:21:52 AM
Fev's happy to help.

Get him and blokes like Kouta back in the fold.

Can't imagine they'd want much, if any, money?

Just on this, while it’s fine to have Club legends back at the club, they’ve gotta be the “right” legends...
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Baggers on September 07, 2020, 08:24:16 AM
R Lyon

Get him on Zoom, Skype... whatever the fck, asap. (I thought Fev said he taught himself!).
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: tonyo on September 07, 2020, 09:46:29 AM
Don’t need Fev we need who taught fev to change his grip to the different hand approach and to walk in a straight line at his target holding the ball still and in line with his drop target. Then it’s just swinging your leg straight. Can’t remember who it was but Fev will. 
 
Fevola was usually great kick at goal, but I will never forgive him for hitting the post from 15 metres out to hand Hawthorn a win in 2009.  Some blokes rise to the pressure, and some wilt.....
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: capcom on September 07, 2020, 10:04:42 AM
Remember Kernahan stuffing up against Essendon at the MCG?  Far worse
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: cookie2 on September 07, 2020, 10:45:57 AM
Remember Kernahan stuffing up against Essendon at the MCG?  Far worse
Only too well! Was at the game with a then mate who was a strong Bomber fan and he took me into the Essendon members after the game. I was wearing my Blues regalia!!  ::)
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Baggers on September 07, 2020, 11:49:34 AM
Only too well! Was at the game with a then mate who was a strong Bomber fan and he took me into the Essendon members after the game. I was wearing my Blues regalia!!  ::)

Brave.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: capcom on September 07, 2020, 12:20:49 PM
Brave.

A Pies mate got me in their social club at Vic Park (early 80s) and though I was respectful (when in Rome etc) I also paid out on a few of their players, quite a number said "yep, fair 'nuff"  "Shout you a beer?"

Very funny day.  Fond memories
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: LP on September 07, 2020, 12:43:20 PM
When those one off errors come from reliable players they are not really wilting under pressure, because those events are clearly the anomaly, it's just a crap kick.

We should not confuse this with our modern blokes, who are likely to miss a 20m set shot when it is only 5 minutes into the 1st Qtr of the game.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: kruddler on September 07, 2020, 05:41:26 PM
Fevola was usually great kick at goal, but I will never forgive him for hitting the post from 15 metres out to hand Hawthorn a win in 2009.  Some blokes rise to the pressure, and some wilt.....

I was at that game. We were dead set gone and came back from nowhere for that to happen.

I was also at the Dixon goal game. Same teams. Same circumstances. Different result.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 07, 2020, 07:09:11 PM
I was at that game. We were dead set gone and came back from nowhere for that to happen.

I was also at the Dixon goal game. Same teams. Same circumstances. Different result.
Same, we were directly behind Fev and were celebrating off the boot, then...
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: kruddler on September 07, 2020, 07:17:18 PM
Same, we were directly behind Fev and were celebrating off the boot, then...
Same, we must've been in the same section.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 07, 2020, 08:24:31 PM
Same, we must've been in the same section.
Bottom row of the top deck, against the hand rails, Q53?? I had reserved seats there, opening where the big bar is.
Title: Re: Post Game Commiserations AFL 2020 Rd 15: Carlton vs GWS
Post by: kruddler on September 07, 2020, 09:05:35 PM
Bottom row of the top deck, against the hand rails, Q53?? I had reserved seats there, opening where the big bar is.
I was ground level for that one. Must've been right underneath ya.