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Topic: Annus horribilis (Read 5472 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #120 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Quote from: kruddler – on


I've covered this already.

Curnow
McKay
Cripps
Weitering.
There 4 players, a dual brownlow medallist and 3 Coleman medallist between them.

Where is the comparisons on st kildas list?

Looking at big money signings of the past throw in Gov saad, Martin, cerra as well.

What have they got....Wilkie?  We got Haynes an equivalent.

Our top end talent embarrasses theirs.

why are you still comparing to st kilda.  I even said last time im not interested in where they're spending.  This topic isnt solely about that.


You've fixated on him walking.  How are we in such direction straights by contrast is the point im making.  Why wouldn't we stretch for tdk.  Or jsos, and still hell bent on trading Charlie?

If we do are we paying him next year?

Just because we can pay for a player, doesn't mean we should.
I wasn't comfortable paying 1mil for tdk, I'm certainly not paying 1.8mil for him!
If a player is not 100% committed to the club, why should we give him more money in the hope to change his mind?

Jack already said it's not about the money.
Charlie doesn't seem OK care about the money, more the lifestyle.
Tdk is getting stupid money.

The name of the game is getting the best list to win you a flag, not the most expensive players you can.


Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #121 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Quote from: kruddler – on


I never said it was sustainable. I just said it's possible and pointed out the how and the why.

If my players know the answer and outs of.my clubs TPP structure the  I've failed as a list manager.
Mushrooms, the lot of them. Keep them in the dark.

Fanciful contracts? That's real world negotiations. It's been publicised by our club and plenty of others, as well as the media.
Your interpretations of the rules completely ignore the intricacies of contract negotiations.

Forget about the nomenclature of war chests and paying in advance. Over the life of each individual contract a player will receive the amount agreed upon. When and where you do this in that contract can be done on a contract by contract basis. Your refusal to acknowledge this is stopping you from seeing how simple it is to do in real life.

Sos literally did the same thing with us. Year on year we had a war chest to lure talent. Sheil, coniglio papley and it never came. Do you think we just let that money go? Or do you think we tweaked our contracts, front loading new ones, to make sure we could do it again the next year?

Sometimes you’re right, often you’re wrong, and you’re very wrong this time.

Go back and read the CBA.

One of list management’s challenges is maintaining sufficient flexibility in player payments to pay for recruits and retain players you want to keep. Front- and back-loading contracts is a part of that process, as is carrying forward a TPP underspend.  Then there’s delisting and trading players, as well as moving players to and from the rookie list.  That’s how clubs deal with contingencies like trades and free agent opportunities and fails.

I've read the cba. You've quoted the cba. I'm telling you that you are misinterpreting the cba.

Overspend and underspend is what you get in that financial year.
This is known, largely, well in advance of that year. That's how you manage your salary cap.
So....if you are predicting to be underspending in one year, you don't want until you get to that year, or tk the end of that year and THEN work the shortfall into next year. No.
What you do is make up the shortfall IN ADVANCE so that you never actually underspend. So the riles you are fixated kn never come into effect. You front load contracts so you never underspend. That way you don't have to worry about overspending. You've planned in advance to have more free the next year....which you can do again and again and continue to save future cap space by front loading contracts every year until you need/want to spend those savings....like the saints are now.

There is no rule stopping this from happening.
Go back and read the cba and tell me what rule prevents this?

There is a TPP 'bill' every year. We are simply paying some of that bill before it is due, while we have some.extra cash.

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #122 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
There is a TPP 'bill' every year. We are simply paying some of that bill before it is due, while we have some.extra cash.
You do realise it can't possibly work like that, if the system worked like your simplification then for creative accounts payments would be on the never never.

The complication missing is the payment average, I suspect it's still in place, that is over a fixed interval your averages have to work out. I think it use to be either 3 or 5 years. I know clubs wanted it gone, they claimed it was too hard to manage, but without it payments have no temporal limit which is not feasible.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #123 –
Quote from: LP – on
Quote from: kruddler – on
There is a TPP 'bill' every year. We are simply paying some of that bill before it is due, while we have some.extra cash.
You do realise it can't possibly work like that, if the system worked like your simplification then for creative accounts payments would be on the never never.

The complication missing is the payment average, I suspect it's still in place, that is over a fixed interval your averages have to work out. I think it use to be either 3 or 5 years. I know clubs wanted it gone, they claimed it was too hard to manage, but without it payments have no temporal limit which is not feasible.

Its not the best example, but all i mean is that you would pay the salary cap every year.
Some of it, when you initially budgeted would''ve been scheduled for later on, but you are paying it early (legally, by adjusting contracts to do so)

Honestly, i can't understand why people are struggling with this concept.

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #124 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Honestly, i can't understand why people are struggling with this concept.
I think they understand @kruddler , the problem seems to be your example is missing the rolling average, I'm assuming here it still is a thing.

When the rolling average is included a club can't bank as much, or for as long, as fans think. It is too easy to quickly end up outside the TPP limits and be subjected to an investigation and fine.

I get why clubs do not want the rolling average, but I also get why the AFL does want it in place to stop the system being gamed. It's a tough gig managing this stuff, if you underspend the club board and executive will hang the list and footy managers for leaving stones unturned, and if you overspend the AFL is going to go whack! For List and Footy Managers you have to be Nostradamus to get it perfect, it's not simple at all.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #125 –
The fundamental question that sits at the top of any position on these issues IMO is whether stability and unity breed success or whether success breeds stability and unity. Some years back I would've probably thought the latter, but with the passing of time I think the former is closer to the truth.

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #126 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
The fundamental question that sits at the top of any position on these issues IMO is whether stability and unity breed success or whether success breeds stability and unity. Some years back I would've probably thought the latter, but with the passing of time I think the former is closer to the truth.
I agree, and now I think we have proven that impatience is the enemy of of achieving stability and unity.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #127 –
Quote from: LP – on
Quote from: kruddler – on
Honestly, i can't understand why people are struggling with this concept.
I think they understand @kruddler , the problem seems to be your example is missing the rolling average, I'm assuming here it still is a thing.

When the rolling average is included a club can't bank as much as fans think, or for as long as fans think, it is too easy to quickly end up outside the TPP limits and be subjected to an investigation and fine.

I get why clubs do not want the rolling average, but I also get why the AFL does want it in place to stop the system being gamed.

If you are talking about the rolling average, then you are not getting it.

All you need to worry about it is this.
If your list is not worthy of paying the max cap.....and half of the afl lists wouldn't be....then front load all your contracts so that you ARE paying 100% of the cap in each year.
All that does is shows that the same players at the club the next year, is costing you less than they did this year.
Do that a few years in a row and eventually you have a fair gap under the TPP even though all your players are paid what they are worth. THAT is when you spend big on recruiting players on ridiculous money.

Do your 'rolling average' on that and you are paying the salary cap each and every year. Simply by front loading all your contracts when the talent doesn't warrant paying the full cap, you end up with more cap space later......on top of that, the cap goes up each year as well.

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #128 –
Contract terms are not the same, but the AFL did simplify this by making the termination date the same, without that it would be gamed and impossible to police.

Clubs have to fill the voids to maintain both the total and average in the correct range, it's not as simple as it seems.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #129 –
Quote from: LP – on
Contract terms are not the same, but the AFL did simplify this by making the termination date the same, without that it would be gamed and impossible to police.

Clubs have to fill the voids to maintain both the total and average in the correct range, it's not as simple as it seems.

Termination date has always been the same. Oct 31. Why did Mick Matlhouse go on his 'book tour' and not start work until Nov 1? Because thats when his 12months no compete clause ended, oct 31. Nothing has changed here....and even if it did, it has nothing to do with TPP and front loading contracts.

Please show me a reference, any reference to 'average in the correct range'.
What you and DJC keep talking about was underspend in a couple of years and overspend in the following year.
That is NOT what i am saying.
Yes, that is a way to build a war chest.
What i've shown is a better way to build a war chest and that war chest can far exceed what you guys are talking about.

Find me where front loading contracts is forbidden in the AFL rules.
Until then, anythnig else you are saying is speculation and/or misinterpreting either me or the AFL rules, or both.
 

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #130 –
What's the relationship between the payment date and a contracts TPP allocation?

Do you think at the midpoint of a contract you can vary payments, shift funds from one year to another?

If so, why then would any club get fined, they could just move the surplus to a previous or future year?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"