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Topic: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) (Read 429062 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1335 –
US policy, driven by the neocons, is to establish complete global hegemony. Its actions mainly support that goal. Join the dots.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1336 –
Quote from: flyboy77 on
https://www.rt.com/usa/384520-postol-report-sarin-syria/

The Western nations have blindly followed the US's imperialistic agenda since the end of WW2 - they aren't going to change their stance now....

It's not conspiracy to suggest that one nation should not bomb another sovereign nation without hard, cold, irrefutable facts....

That's what the Yanks do day in, day out, killing countless innocents and no one, other than the Ruskies, ever calls them on it.

So MIO's assertion is correct, you really do think it didn't happen! :o

Rrrrriiiight!  :-\

The US have all that high tech weaponry, if they don't care about UN conventions and behavior, why bother spending all that freaking money when they could just use their,

The Force Awakens!

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1337 –
I never said nothing happened, I'm just far from convinced the US line is anywhere near the truth.

Try this if you want another take....

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/46845.htm
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1338 –
Fly I hardly now how to respond.
The yanks are dropping bombs day in and day out on sovereign states, without hard irrefutable facts ???

Do you mind if I ask which states you are explicitly meaning?

I wrote a huge essay just then (and subsequently deleted, this is just the very short version  :o ) on why Russia is hardly the beacon of truth and how Europe has in fact a deep mistrust of Russia.

I don't see it as Europe and other allies turning a blind eye, in fact I think they are extremely grateful that America flexes it's muscle in these situations as they see it as having the potential to have direct ramifications within Europe.

Why Russia is stating it will go to war in this situation, is it really as it says.. because America is infringing on the sovereignty of a foreign state and it believes in the divine rights of the state?
Um, Crimea is  :o
Um Eastern Ukraine  :o
If we want to go back further, Poland  :o,  East Germany  :o, Czechoslavakia  :o, Bulgaria  :o, Romania  :o
& Hungary  :o

How did the incursions in Ukraine start?
What do you honestly believe would be the impact if Ukraine applied for an successfully joined NATO?

Why has Russia stated it will veto any call to force Assad to allow in an internationally independent investigative team?

Why is it that a country that is so  scrutinized by the free press the world over, you actually trust less than a country where

  • Anti-Kremlin reporters have been killed or threatened for years
  • They have deliberately withheld information or misled their citizens for decades
  • Opposition politicians almost all end up in jail and a disproportionate amount are threatened (or worse).
  • Doesn't tell their own doctors how to cure civilians they poisoned so as to keep the poison a state secret

Russia as a country lies, they consider it a weakness to be 'held to the truth'. Throughout the entire period from Stalin (and to be honest even Lenin) forward truth was a story you told the public to achieve a goal.

Why then is there version of events (which they will not help put pressure on Syria to allow independents to corroborate) the most likely truth?

It isn't.
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1339 –
Btw finding a conspiracy theorist is not hard, for any conflict. It doesn't mean that because they have an idea how it happened that their version is correct, a very large (VERY VERY VERY large) percentage of these conspiracies are bunkum

Oh and where I say that Russia lies, I understand that all countries do, in fact in the interest of national security that must on occasion keep things out of the public and I don't have any issue.

What I mean by Russia lies, I mean they don't have a moral compass preventing them from just making up fabrications for what they consider best suits the situation and to keep information from people. It was the case all the way through communism and it still is.

Remember this is still a country where the freedom to spontaneously gather and protest is illegal. To protest something, you must get official approval.
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1340 –
Quote from: mateinone on
Btw finding a conspiracy theorist is not hard, for any conflict. It doesn't mean that because they have an idea how it happened that their version is correct, a very large (VERY VERY VERY large) percentage of these conspiracies are bunkum

I'm not even talking conspiracy - i'm simply saying the US 'story' doesn't add up - and the known facts support this view....

I suppose you believe the official 9/11 story too?!  :o :o
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1341 –
Quote from: flyboy77 on
I suppose you believe the official 9/11 story too?!  :o :o

I mean this with all due respect.

I certainly don't believe that the US had anything to do with attacking themselves and I certainly do think it was run by Al Qaeda.

I was going to specifically point out 9/11 conspiracy theorists and those denying landing on the moon as two prime events where you give someone  a pen (or a computer) and an audience and they can come up with something they believe is believable.

I can't even begin to go deeper into a retort if you honestly believe the US Government was complicit in 9/11

...

Also what known facts?
I think that is an amazing stretch to suggest that and one where most western governments without specific agenda for Syria disagree (Russia, Turkey, US, Syria & Iran are all examples of countries that have agendas).
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1342 –
And to add to the irony of this..

If we lived in Russia (or China) right now, the same people that are claiming the US is making up the attack in Syria, would be potentially flagged as possible dissidents to keep an eye on for having the same anti-establishment thoughts (obviously a simple post on a forum is unlikely to attract anything, but if this same agenda was pushed continually, then absolutely).

Because in the west you are free to question everything without accountability or the the same level of threat of suppression (obviously here you can still be sued etc) then these discussions easily grow legs.

Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1343 –
To say that 'Russia' can't be trusted is something of a misnomer. The people of Russia, or USA, or here, or Madagascar for that matter are all pretty similar in many respects - most of us want peace, food, shelter, work, education and good health care.

When we talk of 'trust' in regard to certain nations we're in fact talking about their represented leaders and the bottom line is that both Putin and Trump are pathological liars. Too many politicians toe the party line and will manipulate 'facts' to suit their agenda/ideology or the corporation who is sponsoring them!!! We are all, and have been for a few decades now, when confronted with an election, voting for the lesser of two evils. Sad but true. There are some nations that do have respectable leadership that is committed to the wellbeing of its citizens and environmental realities. We hope that this kind of courageous/ethical leadership will continue to grow.

(Then you have the corporate/money influence... but that's another story that can only foster cynicism regarding leadership).

As for 'conspiracy theories', yes, some are laughable, some weird but when you have enough wild conclusion the truth can be hidden in some situations by assertions of 'another silly conspiracy theory.' There is a level of public conditioning to automatically interpret the words 'conspiracy theory' as BS.

Did the US land on the moon? Pretty sure they did, be pretty hard to keep that a secret! Though I do remember the highly intelligent Prof Magnus Clarke saying he believed it was rubbish and presented loads of scientific evidence to support his assertion that the moon landing was staged. Personally, I couldn't give a cr@p.

Though I do believe that anyone who thinks 9/11 is exactly what the US govt reports say is playing with themselves. More than three thousand architects have formed an organisation demanding an honest investigation into how those buildings 'really' collapsed... especially the third one. I'm pretty sure there is something very fishy about it all but I don't know what it is and don't want to jump to unsubstantiated conclusions until an honest and proper investigation is conducted.

There are only 3 things I personally don't trust: corporations, religion and my ex wife.

Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1344 –
I am specifically avoiding 9/11 conspiracies, other than to say what I said earlier.

I actually meant the Russia as a political entity can't be trusted, as opposed to individual Russians.
Though there is certainly a general difference in the outlooks of say someone from Russia than someone from Sydney and this is generally caused through decades of the environment they have lived in I would (very strongly) suggest rather than any individual genetic trait.

Russia as a political organisation is considered considerably less trustworthy by the west than say the US, that is absolutely the case.
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1345 –
Quote from: mateinone on
I am specifically avoiding 9/11 conspiracies, other than to say what I said earlier.

I actually meant the Russia as a political entity can't be trusted, as opposed to individual Russians.
Though there is certainly a general difference in the outlooks of say someone from Russia than someone from Sydney and this is generally caused through decades of the environment they have lived in I would (very strongly) suggest rather than any individual genetic trait.

Russia as a political organisation is considered considerably less trustworthy by the west than say the US, that is absolutely the case.

Well they would say that wouldn't they since pretty much all western nations of any consequence are vassals of the US.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1346 –
Quote from: cookie2 on
Well they would say that wouldn't they since pretty much all western nations of any consequence are vassals of the US.

Is that as opposed to being democratic, open and politically accountable?

Personally, I don't think countries like the UK, France, Germany or India would appreciate your insinuations. You have basically labeled them puppets, Australia doesn't even fit in that category and we are more closely aligned than most! :o

Trump can ignore or dispute the media and public opinions but he cannot shut down free speech, unlike Putin, Kim Jong-un or Li Keqiang! ;)
The Force Awakens!

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1347 –
Quote from: LP on
Is that as opposed to being democratic, open and politically accountable?

Personally, I don't think countries like the UK, France, Germany or India would appreciate your insinuations. You have basically labeled them puppets, Australia doesn't even fit in that category and we are more closely aligned than most! :o

Trump can ignore or dispute the media and public opinions but he cannot shut down free speech, unlike Putin, Kim Jong-un or Li Keqiang! ;)

I thought I made a pretty straightforward statement - no insinuation about it?
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1348 –
Quote from: cookie2 on
I thought I made a pretty straightforward statement - no insinuation about it?

The irony of your statement is all their hiding in your avatar!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1349 –
Quote from: mateinone on
I am specifically avoiding 9/11 conspiracies, other than to say what I said earlier.

I actually meant the Russia as a political entity can't be trusted, as opposed to individual Russians.
Though there is certainly a general difference in the outlooks of say someone from Russia than someone from Sydney and this is generally caused through decades of the environment they have lived in I would (very strongly) suggest rather than any individual genetic trait.

Russia as a political organisation is considered considerably less trustworthy by the west than say the US, that is absolutely the case.

What you are not saying, but implying, is that the US Government and its minions, are more trustworthy than the Russians - again, an entirely baseless proposition...
Finals, then 4 in a row!