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Topic: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) (Read 802066 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #3420 –
Waiting for a blemish-free politician that ticks all the boxes is like waiting by the side of a river for a fish to magically fly into your mouth. Nevertheless, there are limits and there are thresholds beyond which no politician should pass, and IMO both of these men have long passed those thresholds. In any sane, just world, these guys would be lucky to be janitors in the White House, let alone President.

Neither are deserving of even 1 vote, but they don't play by the same rules. Biden is a standard political apparatchik in a corporate sponsored duopoly. Trump more closely resembles a cartoonish, buffoonish character from a majority country, more cult leader than a Western politician in the true sense of the concept. 

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #3422 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Waiting for a blemish-free politician that ticks all the boxes is like waiting by the side of a river for a fish to magically fly into your mouth. Nevertheless, there are limits and there are thresholds beyond which no politician should pass, and IMO both of these men have long passed those thresholds. In any sane, just world, these guys would be lucky to be janitors in the White House, let alone President.

Neither are deserving of even 1 vote, but they don't play by the same rules. Biden is a standard political apparatchik in a corporate sponsored duopoly. Trump more closely resembles a cartoonish, buffoonish character from a majority country, more cult leader than a Western politician in the true sense of the concept.

You’re too charitable Paul; neither of them are fit, mentally, physically and morally, to run a chook raffle.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #3423 –
Quote from: DJC – on
You’re too charitable Paul; neither of them are fit, mentally, physically and morally, to run a chook raffle.

Run a chook raffle? Now you're being too charitable, David  ;)  ;D ...I wouldn't trust either of them to participate effectively in an egg and spoon race! Or to even understand the rules!
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #3424 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
Run a chook raffle? Now you're being too charitable, David  ;)  ;D ...I wouldn't trust either of them to participate effectively in an egg and spoon race! Or to even understand the rules!
well Trump wouldn't play by the rules and Biden might need someone to show him which way to run his race...

Ultimately politicians under 35 and over 55 are unfit to lead the nation. 
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #3425 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
well Trump wouldn't play by the rules and Biden might need someone to show him which way to run his race...

Ultimately politicians under 35 and over 55 are unfit to lead the nation.

I’m not sure that you can set age limits on leadership;  Alexander the Great was 20 when he succeeded Phillip and Winston Churchill was in his late 60s when he guided the Allies to victory in the Second World War.

It’s more about ability or capacity than age.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #3426 –
Quote from: DJC – on
I’m not sure that you can set age limits on leadership;  Alexander the Great was 20 when he succeeded Phillip and Winston Churchill was in his late 60s when he guided the Allies to victory in the Second World War.

It’s more about ability or capacity than age.
I disagree.

Those would be outliers not the rule. 

Under 35 doesn't know enough about life and over 55 are too disconnected from the plight of the younger types.  It's just too disconnected.  It doesn't have to be hard and fast but you go outside those ages my rule would apply more often than your exceptions.  I'm 41.  The kids I work with have remarkably different challenges to mine when I was their age, but I can relate better to them than most people aged 20 years older than me.   Most people of that era are too caught up in outdated modes of thinking that aren't so relevant either. 

Before anyone calls this ageist, have a think about how we lived 30 years ago.  Supermarkets closed at midday Sunday, we only had free to air TV.  The internet was dial up if you had it at all.  Windows 95 wasn't out, kernahan was our captain.

30 years is a long time.  Have a look at what property prices have done in that time. 

The world is a very different place and whilst some people are connected to it, most aren't.  There's a huge divide.  You want to be happier about it, trim it down to 30 and make it 60, but beyond that is way too out of touch. 
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #3428 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
I disagree.

Those would be outliers not the rule. 

Under 35 doesn't know enough about life and over 55 are too disconnected from the plight of the younger types.  It's just too disconnected.  It doesn't have to be hard and fast but you go outside those ages my rule would apply more often than your exceptions.  I'm 41.  The kids I work with have remarkably different challenges to mine when I was their age, but I can relate better to them than most people aged 20 years older than me.   Most people of that era are too caught up in outdated modes of thinking that aren't so relevant either. 

Before anyone calls this ageist, have a think about how we lived 30 years ago.  Supermarkets closed at midday Sunday, we only had free to air TV.  The internet was dial up if you had it at all.  Windows 95 wasn't out, kernahan was our captain.

30 years is a long time.  Have a look at what property prices have done in that time. 

The world is a very different place and whilst some people are connected to it, most aren't.  There's a huge divide.  You want to be happier about it, trim it down to 30 and make it 60, but beyond that is way too out of touch.

No, they’re not outliers.  Golda Meir was 71 when she became Israel’s PM, Indira Gandhi was 63 when she began her second stint as India’s PM, Margaret Thatcher was 54 when she became UK’s PM, Charles de Gaulle was 68 when elected as France’s President, Fidel Castro was 33 when he became Cuba’s PM, Xi Jinping is 73, William Pitt the younger was UK PM at 24, Queen Elizabeth was 96, Pope Francis is 87, Gabriel Attal was France’s PM at 35, Kim Jong Un became North Korea’s supreme leader at 29, and there are so many more leaders, good and bad, outside your age range.

Age is largely irrelevant to leadership.  Intelligence, principles, decisiveness, morality, knowledge, ruthlessness, compassion, etc are far more important.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #3429 –
It’s an interesting debate. My own personal experience tends to make me lean a bit to Thry’s side that there is a “best before.” date in all of us.

I retired at 60. I found the last five years probably the hardest. I still enjoyed what I did but the energy just wasn’t there, and I found things a lot more challenging. Strangely that was a period where others looked to me for advice and direction. I regard my best years as between the ages 30 and 50.
The young have the energy and enthusiasm, the old have the age and experience, and it’s no doubt somewhere in the middle where they hit their peak. The young tend to live in the moment. Their focus is what is happening at any given time. At the end of my career, I could look at the day ahead and knew exactly what parts of that day would present challenges and how I would deal with those. The thing is that 10 years after retiring I know I couldn’t do that same job.

Looking at the list of elder statesfolk DJC posted, the questions would have to be -
Were they in their prime when held those positions?
Were they still the best person for that job?
Would a 50-year-old Biden be a better President than the 80+ version.

The answer to the first question would undoubtedly be ‘no’
The answer to the second is ‘debatable’.
The answer to the third would be odds-on.

Aging is something we can’t beat. Biden is not as sharp as he was 4 years ago. In four year’s time he will be less sharp…and Harris would probably be President.

Is Biden of better character than Trump? Undoubtedly! His interests seem to be of what’s best for his country and the world whereas Trump is always about what’s best for Trump. In a bit of a contradiction, by hanging on Biden is probably committing a bit of a selfish act.  He’s also a politician of many years experience and you don’t last that long in politics without a bit of mongrel and ruthlessness…and while no Trump, there would be a few skeletons in his closet.

So where are we at now.
At the Press Conference he made a few gaffs. The Trump for Harris was a big blooper, much the same as calling Zelensky- Putin earlier in the day. But his performance at the presser, while not great, and very hesitant at times, was better than his debate performance and not the clear sign of the lost cause some Democrats calling for him to step down would have been able to seize upon to justify their positions. He was able to demonstrate he was still across a number of important issues.
Just as an aside…notice when Biden loses his train of thought he says ‘Anyway’ and changes the subject.

All that leaves the party in a bit of limbo.
Time is running out. If a change is to be made it has to be made shortly. If Biden does run he is staring at defeat. He would also go to an election with a party divided. A party where many of his colleagues think he shouldn’t be running. That gives the other side a ton of ammunition. A divided party is a recipe for defeat.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #3430 –
The US Constitution stipulates a minimum age for presidential candidates. A maximum age requirement is long overdue, although the reasons for its omission from the requirements should surprise no one.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #3431 –
Quote from: DJC – on
No, they’re not outliers.  Golda Meir was 71 when she became Israel’s PM, Indira Gandhi was 63 when she began her second stint as India’s PM, Margaret Thatcher was 54 when she became UK’s PM, Charles de Gaulle was 68 when elected as France’s President, Fidel Castro was 33 when he became Cuba’s PM, Xi Jinping is 73, William Pitt the younger was UK PM at 24, Queen Elizabeth was 96, Pope Francis is 87, Gabriel Attal was France’s PM at 35, Kim Jong Un became North Korea’s supreme leader at 29, and there are so many more leaders, good and bad, outside your age range.

Age is largely irrelevant to leadership.  Intelligence, principles, decisiveness, morality, knowledge, ruthlessness, compassion, etc are far more important.

Agree, 100%, David.

Though anecdotal, my maternal grandfather (engineer) upon retiring went back to uni (aged 71) and got a degree and continued working, all faculties in tact, until his late 80s. My paternal grandfather was working (architectural landscaping design) right up to his sudden falling off the twig at age 77 due to a fatal heart attack. My own father was working, running his business, all faculties in tact, until a bad fall in the shower and contracting sepsis and passing 8 days later at the age of 86.

How many actors/writers/scientists/managing directors/political leaders/doctors etc., are/were still effective and productive into their 70s and 80s? Folks who are most effected by age are those who have worked physically hard for decades, but when their bodies can no longer handle the rigors of hard physical work their experience becomes valuable in management.

Most people do not succumb to dementia illnesses before their late 70s/early 80s with diabetes, genetic predisposition and heart disease the greatest risk factors. Unfortunately, in the case of Biden, his lifelong management of a cognitive ailment combined with an obvious development of dementia has made his tenure impossible and now, an embarrassment.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #3432 –
Biden is speaking in Michigan and going quite well.
He's giving it to Donald Trump in a big way.
It's his best strategy.
Make the contrast.
"I may be old...but the other guy." ::)

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #3433 –
Measured year on year Biden's mental and physical decline have become so obvious that they cannot now be hidden from the public.

If he refuses to step down and is fortunate enough to win the upcoming election, I'm sure that some time next year the further decline caused by dementia will force him to resign.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #3434 –
I think the meat of my post has been glossed over by the ages.  The politicians DJC listed actually support my point.  Most of them lived through the similar hardships (or more challenging) that gave them unique experience.   Ignoring the antiquities, autocrats and royals (non genuine examples of people groomed specifically for those roles by other leaders of people) you have a generation of leaders mentioned who lived through world wars, great depression and faced legitimate relative hardships to the common person.  Roof over heads, food on the table, health care, education for kids and work.  We are facing a bunch of silver spoon career politicians who grew up in an era where the great dream of society was much more freely and easier forged.  The kids today are looking down the barrel of repeated adversity, climate issues created by an exploding global population, better educated, with tougher propositions and with better incomes but finding it tougher to get to a place of prosperity than any generation that has come before it in such an affluent position.


How can those leaders relate to these people?  Albanese grew up in commission housing.  Yep, do that today and you face a lifetime of poverty if you can escape that cycle at all.  Will they own a house in future? Afford health care?  No.  The guy I was speaking to yesterday at work lives with his partner and child, was relieved to be able to leave the lease at the house he is renting for almost $500 a week in Caroline Springs because the vendor and real estate agent have finally arrived at the idea its unfit for habitation. He works in technology and has a good well paying job,  his Mrs works and their attempt to save a dollar by moving out ended up being spent in commuting but now he's back to searching for a place to live in with resources income wise that albanese would have dreamt of yet somehow can't make the ends meet properly to afford housing.  Ignore the 70 year old returning to university for a moment.  The anecdotal people in their 70's I know of are all on heart and blood pressure medication and spending more time trying to work out how to navigate the technologies at hand and saying how bad at it they all are that is what drives every day life for the majority of young people.  That's not to say they aren't useful because that seems to be the inference.  They can be advisors ministers and what not but in the main role? They come across as unrelatable.  Even if they have the traits to lead, it's a sermon of out of touch leadership.  Albanese is 20 years older than me. His time growing up was remarkably different to mine.  Let alone those 10 years my junior like my work colleague who is trapped in a rent cycle with a dual income household and wondering where they can move to in order to soften that blow.

The decisions being made directly impact the kids struggling today but it comes from boomers who have the luxury of retiring going to uni and flexing into another space because they paid their house off 30 years ago and don't understand what having a mortgage until your retire looks like and then wondering what retirement might look like if you retire at all. 

That's ok. Those leaders will get their almost half a million a year pension. 

The revolution is coming folks.  Guys like my colleague are not the minority they're the majority.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson