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Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1485
Trump's biggest vulnerability is his relationship with the Russians and his stated desire to improve relations with them. This undermines the narrative that they are a very dangerous enemy of the US and the main justification for a $1Trillion annual defence budget. This in turn goes directly against some very very powerful and influential interests in the US. Unless he recants this position he won't last.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1486
Say again? So, if Russia becomes an ally, the US will disarm? That suggests the US has no concerns about China, North Korea, Iran, Syria, ISIS, Al Qaeda etc. etc. Or is there a class of weapon which can only be used against the Russians?

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1487
Say again? So, if Russia becomes an ally, the US will disarm? That suggests the US has no concerns about China, North Korea, Iran, Syria, ISIS, Al Qaeda etc. etc. Or is there a class of weapon which can only be used against the Russians?

Did not say that. You said that.
Reality always wins in the end.

 

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1488
You said:
... his stated desire to improve relations with them. This undermines the narrative that they are a very dangerous enemy of the US and the main justification for a $1Trillion annual defence budget.
You suggested therefore that improved relations would lead to reduction in the annual defence budget.  I disagree.

In particular, improved relations with Russia wouldn't reduce the need for the US to be able to confront the Russians if the relationship worsened.  And it certainly wouldn't justify reducing the ability of the US to meet challenges from hostile or adversarial forces elsewhere in the world.

I assume you are referring to the military/industrial complex when you talk about "very, very powerful and influential interests in the US".  As the defence budget wouldn't fall, why would they be worried?  After all, Trump campaigned on increasing the defence budget and insisted that the Congress had to implement such an increase in recent budget negotiations. 

No doubt there are military and diplomatic personnel who are concerned about the Russians.  Maybe those concerns have little to do with money and more to do with hardheaded concerns about the Russians.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1489
You said:You suggested therefore that improved relations would lead to reduction in the annual defence budget. I disagree.

In particular, improved relations with Russia wouldn't reduce the need for the US to be able to confront the Russians if the relationship worsened.  And it certainly wouldn't justify reducing the ability of the US to meet challenges from hostile or adversarial forces elsewhere in the world.

No I didn't. I stated that the current budget is based, in part, on Russia being perceived as a very dangerous enemy. That perception is very strongly held by powerful interests within the US.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1490
Quite an assertion but where's the evidence? Whether the Russians are classed as dangerous or potentially dangerous given their military might does not affect the annual defence budget.  The US has to be equipped to meet a blitzkreig land war in Europe in either case.  More importantly, there are numerous other current or potential enemies against whom the US needs to be armed. And more important still is the fact that Trump is actively committed to increasing the annual defence budget which belies the suggestion that the funding issue is the source of resistance.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1491
Quite an assertion but where's the evidence? Whether the Russians are classed as dangerous or potentially dangerous given their military might does not affect the annual defence budget.  The US has to be equipped to meet a blitzkreig land war in Europe in either case.  More importantly, there are numerous other current or potential enemies against whom the US needs to be armed. And more important still is the fact that Trump is actively committed to increasing the annual defence budget which makes the suggestion that the funding issue is the source of resistance.

By the same token, where's the evidence for your assertions? You make plenty. So you don't think that Russia's perceived by the US as a dangerous enemy? And you assert that even if it is, this doesn't affect the US defence budget? You are not aware of all of the US bases which surround Russia based upon that perception?
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1492
I think you missed the point of what DJC was pointing out. Have another look at his list... pretty damning stuff and all with on-going ramifications.

I'm not sure Baggers.


I dont like Trump, and frankly I think he is what the shadow government that truly runs America wants, because people are so focussed on Trump that they are not really paying attention to things that they should and are hysterical about what isnt a real issue.


But, Ill play regarding the list.  Here is my rebuttals:

1. Bombing the Syrian Air Force. - Bombing the "Syrian Air Force" (note it was an airstrip on one day which failed to shut it down for less than 24 hours) was deemed to be a justified show of strength in response to Assad's supposed chemical attack, which kind of doesn't make sense for it to be on a list of undesirable traits doesnt it????

2. Praising the North Korean dictator. - Praising the North Korean dictator is also a bit of stretch considering the following article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/30/donald-trump-praises-north-korean-leader-smart-cookie/

Its paraphrasing at best particularly when tensions are running high, and Diplomacy is required. 

Quote

Last week he told Reuters: “His father dies, took over a regime. So say what you want, but that is not easy, especially at that age.”

Mr Trump was careful to add that he was not praising the North Korean dictator, whose brutal regime executes dissidents (and is believed to be responsible for murdering Mr Kim’s estranged half-brother in Malaysia this year), simply pointing out that taking power in such circumstances was a tough thing to do.

The words have prompted intense speculation that Mr Trump is trying to find some common ground with his adversary and open a diplomatic channel by suggesting that Mr Kim is not irrational but was simply thrown into a very difficult situation at a tender age.


3. Sharing secret information with the Russians. - This is not that big a deal.  I'm sure its happened before, and it will happen again perhaps a little more deliberately, but to quote the guardian "The intelligence Trump shared involved an Islamic State plot to use bombs hidden in laptop computers to bring down planes".  Had no one told the media, would this be a problem?? As per usual, the media are the issue.  Don't tell and no one will find out we have sources with this information.


4. Weakening environmental protection.  Policy change to undo something that Obama brought in.  Sounds bad and good for coal and businesses.  Might be bad.  Might make no difference. Might be a different plan.  I doubt it, its business so this would be an economic change to benefit business.

5. Weakening heritage protection.  I cant find anything specific on this, but it might roll into 4.

6. Demeaning women.  Not going to argue too heavily about this.  I find this an emotive over reaction to a few different things to do with potentially his abortion bill which was to do with pulling funding for organisations actively pushing abortion overseas.  reportedly many presidents have done similar, but that doesn't mean any rights were removed. The conversation about kissing women and touching their bits was a bit crude and vulgar, but hardly demeaning.  It is something I would expect of teenagers or early 20's males, but Ive heard women in their 40's and 50's say some things that would make your head spin, which simply makes him human as much as we all would like to see him as an oompa loompa.

7. Making the world a more dangerous place.  - The USA has done a grand job of this for the last 50 years.  I dont see why its something reserved for Trump as president for less than a year.

8. Promoting racism and discrimination.  Perhaps.   He talks about the wall.  The one that exists in some parts but he hasn't built yet??  Anyone appealing to nationalism is going to sound dicriminatory and racist, but bigotry is an emotive tool and he may have simply used it to get elected.  discrimination and racism exists unilaterally and I don't believe that it should be reserved for a criticism of Trump but seems to come from the mysoginistic white male thing.  In fact, this ties into my distraction above.

9. Jeopardising the economy.  See point 7 although I find it interesting that the stock market actually surged on the back of him being announced President.  given his point 5 is geared towards good for jobs and the economy its hard to argue this one and that one.


10. Bastardising the English language.  Guilty as charged.  In fact, he seems a real bastard.  Beyond that, he hasnt done much that any other president hasn't done before him but has done it in such a way that offsides everyone.  That makes him guilty of being poor at PR and a poor choice of leader, but that was what he was when he was elected, and I find it difficult to really argue against someone warts and all, when they were voted in on that merit.



I dont like the man.  I feel that these gripes are more of a shopping list of things to hate him about, without really making any difference to anything he does as president.

Im still waiting for a real gripe to come to the surface.  At the moment he is crude and uninspiring.  Hardly an impeachable offense, but he seems to want to try and make that happen.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1493
When the media start misquoting or verballing Trump, and they do so regularly to try and boost their ratings, they play directly into his hands!

I wouldn't be surprised to find they have their own people out in regional media deliberately misquoting him.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1494
Unless Russia becomes a true ally which cooperates militarily with the US, the US has no choice but to guard against a sudden military conflict. 

Why is Australia spending billions on the JSF?  We can't stand against China anyway unless the US defends us. Whether we have a few JSFs won't matter much overall We have good relations with the Chinese anyway as we do with our immediate neighbours.  Yet we clearly are arming ourselves to maintain air superiority over the Indonesians, for example.  IOW, we are arming ourselves not against any existing threat but against the possibility of the relationship worsening in the future.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1495
Unless Russia becomes a true ally which cooperates militarily with the US, the US has no choice but to guard against a sudden military conflict. 

Why is Australia spending billions on the JSF?  We can't stand against China anyway unless the US defends us. Whether we have a few JSFs won't matter much overall We have good relations with the Chinese anyway as we do with our immediate neighbours.  Yet we clearly are arming ourselves to maintain air superiority over the Indonesians, for example.  IOW, we are arming ourselves not against any existing threat but against the possibility of the relationship worsening in the future.

But isn't trying to normalise relations with them a step towards this?
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1496
When the media start misquoting or verballing Trump, and they do so regularly to try and boost their ratings, they play directly into his hands!

I wouldn't be surprised to find they have their own people out in regional media deliberately misquoting him.
Yep, how dare they cut and paste his tweets or replay what he says during interviews.  Trump should be the only one who can say what his words mean and he should also be allowed to change their meaning as time goes on.  Who says "White" can't mean "Black"?

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1497
But isn't trying to normalise relations with them a step towards this?
If we were living in Disneyland, that would be possible.  And when the Soviet Union collapsed, that was the hope.  Remember when there was the talk of an end to history?  But it's very clear that Russia under Putin wants to be a geopolitical power rather than a US ally like Britain and Germany.  The US has no alternative but to work on a worst-case scenario.  Russia has the military strength to successfully invade Western Europe or annex bits of it as Hitler did prior to going one step too far by invading Poland.  In fact, it's already annexed part of Ukraine albeit that it was part of the old Eastern bloc.

Improving relations with Russia may well be beneficial, depending on whether Putin acts in good faith (and that is debatable).  But until there is a true alliance, the US would need to maintain its military preparedness to counter Russian aggression.  Pray to God, but keep your gunpowder dry.

It's funny to read Tom Clancy novels from the 90s now.  He was a right-winger and NRA gun-nut.  He had an alternative universe going in which Jack Ryan, a former CIA man, became President while a former KGB guy reached the top of the Kremlin.  They had a big bromance and that relationship allowed the US and Russia to have each other's back.  In one book, they had to take on a coordinated attack from Iran, India and China.  The Russians helped the US drop a bomb on an Ayatollah-type Iranian leader to bring that conflict to an end.  In another, it was Pearl Harbour all over again with Japan taking over US territories in the Pacific and arming itself with nuclear missiles.  The US helped to thwart a Japanese attempt to annex part of Russia in that conflict.  Those were the days ...

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1498
If we were living in Disneyland, that would be possible.  And when the Soviet Union collapsed, that was the hope.  Remember when there was the talk of an end to history?  But it's very clear that Russia under Putin wants to be a geopolitical power rather than a US ally like Britain and Germany.  The US has no alternative but to work on a worst-case scenario.  Russia has the military strength to successfully invade Western Europe or annex bits of it as Hitler did prior to going one step too far by invading Poland.  In fact, it's already annexed part of Ukraine albeit that it was part of the old Eastern bloc.

Improving relations with Russia may well be beneficial, depending on whether Putin acts in good faith (and that is debatable).  But until there is a true alliance, the US would need to maintain its military preparedness to counter Russian aggression.  Pray to God, but keep your gunpowder dry.

Talking about Disneyland, it's bl00dy rude of Russia to move its country right up to those US bases in such  a provocative act of confrontation. Are you familiar with US activities in the ME over the past 20 years or so? Do you actually know what happened in Ukraine? We are never going to get anywhere with this discussion - you won't convince me and vice versa, certainly not via this medium - it's becoming a pissing competition.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1499

3. Sharing secret information with the Russians. - This is not that big a deal.  I'm sure its happened before, and it will happen again perhaps a little more deliberately, but to quote the guardian "The intelligence Trump shared involved an Islamic State plot to use bombs hidden in laptop computers to bring down planes".  Had no one told the media, would this be a problem?? As per usual, the media are the issue.  Don't tell and no one will find out we have sources with this information.


Actually if the reports are accurate (always an if) the NSA and I think CIA were apparently scrambling the moment he opened his mouth. This was considered a 'code word' bit of intel, meaning by the US standards it was the 4 (and highest) level of intel, in that it limits those authorised to a certain level and narrows the authority even further.

If reports are also to be believed Trump has broken an unwritten rule between intelligence agencies and governments that says you don't pass on sensitive intel without the authorisation of the government passing you that Intel (in this case believed to be Israel).

If everything has happened as reported or generally as reported, then this was potentially a huge stuff up and Russia will be laughing all the way.

Goals for 2017
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