Rd 21: Pre Game Speculations: Carlton vs Brisbane

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Rd 21: Pre Game Speculations: Carlton vs Brisbane

August 08, 2016, 08:20:46 am

The game is in Brisbane and does not appear to be on free to air TV again. The game is at the 'Gabba at 1345.

Brisbane were woeful. So bad it makes me wonder how they beat Essendon a few weeks back.
On the other hand, we were close to our worst at St Kilda. We seem to have stored up our worst performances for the 'Aints this year.
That does not bode well for a skillful and entertaining game.
Maybe I am lucky if it isn't on TV.....

Re: Rd 21: Pre Game Speculations: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #1 – August 08, 2016, 04:39:27 pm

Don't know what our problem was on Sun but I'm very hopeful of a bounce back this week and will definitely be tipping us.

Re: Rd 21: Pre Game Speculations: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #2 – August 08, 2016, 06:24:47 pm

Quote from: cookie2 – on August 08, 2016, 04:39:27 pm

Don't know what our problem was on Sun but I'm very hopeful of a bounce back this week and will definitely be tipping us.

We failed miserably on Sunday, but I can see Bolton doing something about that. We have usually responded well to poor performances the next week.
That said, we have also played Brisbane a number of times lately when we were expected to win big. It hasn't happened. Last year we got pounded by an ordinary Brisbane side, though we were at a pretty low ebb at the time. That we responded well afterwards when the cupboard was bare (talent wise due to injury) is a positive we must cling to as best we can. It is the only flotsam in the neighbourhood.

One thing that also gives me hope is the way we responded to St Kilda this time. Granted that a lot of our players were down or made mistakes by the bucket load, but we responded VERY WELL to some of the issues from last time.
[1] Rucks: our rucks won more taps outs in general and more taps to advantage. We did MUCH better in the centre square, where we got more clearances and better clearances. We didn't do as well around the ground, and Hickey did take some marks and kick a goal, but we were not embarrassed, like we were last time.
[2] Midfield Structures: this was also very much better than last time. We stopped Jack Steven cold: I don't think he has a single centre clearance. Cripps did well in the centre, as did Gibbs. Nor were their clearances as ineffective as last time: they were the only times we actually gave our forwards a chance. That the ball came straight back over their heads with no pressure is another issue.
[3] Tactically we matched up better. That things did not work out well was due to our relative lack of intensity and our lack of skill.
This week that should not be as much of a problem as Brisbane have shown less intensity and less skill than us. Hopefully having Murphy back will help our midfield as well. he has been sorely missed.

Re: Rd 21: Pre Game Speculations: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #3 – August 08, 2016, 06:27:09 pm

Quote from: crashlander – on August 08, 2016, 08:20:46 am

The game is in Brisbane and does not appear to be on free to air TV again. The game is at the 'Gabba at 1345.

Brisbane were woeful. So bad it makes me wonder how they beat Essendon a few weeks back.
On the other hand, we were close to our worst at St Kilda. We seem to have stored up our worst performances for the 'Aints this year.
That does not bode well for a skillful and entertaining game.
Maybe I am lucky if it isn't on TV.....

If it's at 1.45pm Saturday then it's on TV.

Re: Rd 21: Pre Game Speculations: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #4 – August 08, 2016, 06:30:16 pm

Quote from: crashlander – on August 08, 2016, 06:24:47 pm

We failed miserably on Sunday, but I can see Bolton doing something about that. We have usually responded well to poor performances the next week.
That said, we have also played Brisbane a number of times lately when we were expected to win big. It hasn't happened. Last year we got pounded by an ordinary Brisbane side, though we were at a pretty low ebb at the time. That we responded well afterwards when the cupboard was bare (talent wise due to injury) is a positive we must cling to as best we can. It is the only flotsam in the neighbourhood.

One thing that also gives me hope is the way we responded to St Kilda this time. Granted that a lot of our players were down or made mistakes by the bucket load, but we responded VERY WELL to some of the issues from last time.
[1] Rucks: our rucks won more taps outs in general and more taps to advantage. We did MUCH better in the centre square, where we got more clearances and better clearances. We didn't do as well around the ground, and Hickey did take some marks and kick a goal, but we were not embarrassed, like we were last time.
[2] Midfield Structures: this was also very much better than last time. We stopped Jack Steven cold: I don't think he has a single centre clearance. Cripps did well in the centre, as did Gibbs. Nor were their clearances as ineffective as last time: they were the only times we actually gave our forwards a chance. That the ball came straight back over their heads with no pressure is another issue.
[3] Tactically we matched up better. That things did not work out well was due to our relative lack of intensity and our lack of skill.
This week that should not be as much of a problem as Brisbane have shown less intensity and less skill than us. Hopefully having Murphy back will help our midfield as well. he has been sorely missed.

First thing Bolts can do is drop a ruck and add a key forward. If he hasn't worked out that's out best structure then i'll be scratching my head.

Re: Rd 21: Pre Game Speculations: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #5 – August 08, 2016, 06:35:10 pm

Quote from: laj – on August 08, 2016, 06:27:09 pm

If it's at 1.45pm Saturday then it's on TV.

God I hope so! I am so tired of us being exiled to pay TV.

Re: Rd 21: Pre Game Speculations: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #6 – August 08, 2016, 06:37:02 pm

Quote from: laj – on August 08, 2016, 06:30:16 pm

First thing Bolts can do is drop a ruck and add a key forward. If he hasn't worked out that's out best structure then i'll be scratching my head.

Alas we probably need both ruckmen: it was one spot where Brisbane did well against us last time and is still one of their real strengths. However, they do not have to be on the field at the same time. Having some forward options wouldn't hurt us at all. Even more of they can play.

Re: Rd 21: Pre Game Speculations: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #7 – August 08, 2016, 07:01:22 pm

Quote from: crashlander – on August 08, 2016, 06:37:02 pm

Alas we probably need both ruckmen: it was one spot where Brisbane did well against us last time and is still one of their real strengths. However, they do not have to be on the field at the same time. Having some forward options wouldn't hurt us at all. Even more of they can play.

We don''t need both ruckman. Never do. Play like crap when we play both. Fails us time and again when we play both. Results show that. They are both useless when off the ball. We know Kreuzer is a way better player when he's on his own and Casboult improves alot when he gets a run on the ball. That way we can play another key forward. I'd rather loss a few taps outs, which I actually couldn't care about in the slightest, if necessary to improve other aspects of our game out of sight. Still win clearances even if down in the tapout count, as had happened a trillion times. Go back to the structure that won us games. Carlton played BY FAR their best footy this year with just one ruckman.

Two ruckmen and one key forward is 0-12. 6-2 when we have two key forwards and improved alot further again with just one ruck. Still want to go that way? As crap as we were last year that was one of the few things that did work, and we were very good in the clearances. And Casbooult was the 2nd ruck for 14 of the 16 games he played and averaged 1.5 goals a game on top of that.

Might sound a broken record on this one but why can't people see that.

Re: Rd 21: Pre Game Speculations: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #8 – August 08, 2016, 07:28:19 pm

Agree two ruckmen takes a rotation away from the midfield where we can rest Cripps and Gibbs in the forward line.

Re: Rd 21: Pre Game Speculations: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #9 – August 08, 2016, 07:29:52 pm

Quote from: laj – on August 08, 2016, 06:27:09 pm

If it's at 1.45pm Saturday then it's on TV.

On ch 7 at 3pm

Re: Rd 21: Pre Game Speculations: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #10 – August 08, 2016, 08:06:41 pm

Quote from: laj – on August 08, 2016, 07:01:22 pm

We don''t need both ruckman. Never do. Play like crap when we play both. Fails us time and again when we play both. Results show that. They are both useless when off the ball. We know Kreuzer is a way better player when he's on his own and Casboult improves alot when he gets a run on the ball. That way we can play another key forward. I'd rather loss a few taps outs, which I actually couldn't care about in the slightest, if necessary to improve other aspects of our game out of sight. Still win clearances even if down in the tapout count, as had happened a trillion times. Go back to the structure that won us games. Carlton played BY FAR their best footy this year with just one ruckman.

Two ruckmen and one key forward is 0-12. 6-2 when we have two key forwards and improved alot further again with just one ruck. Still want to go that way? As crap as we were last year that was one of the few things that did work, and we were very good in the clearances. And Casbooult was the 2nd ruck for 14 of the 16 games he played and averaged 1.5 goals a game on top of that.

Might sound a broken record on this one but why can't people see that.

I am familiar with the argument, but playing 1 ruckman is a win big or lose big option. When our ruck plays well, we do well. But when he doesn't, it is a point source error. Our coaching staff take a conservative tone with that. They want options, especially if there are injuries.

Then there is our ruckmen. Phillips is a work in progress whose tap work is pretty good. He can take a mark and kick straight, but he doesn't read the game well yet.
We keep playing him because we see potential in him. He will have to muscle up somewhat, as he doesn't do well against guys like Mumford who depend on strength.
Kreuzer is important to the team, but even though he is 200 cm he is now one of the smaller ruckmen and he does NOT have the body make that work as much as we wish. I don't know if he is going to develop the body either, but he does NOT have the leap to handle a NicNat.
Then, he has lost his ability to take marks. If he gets one in the game, that is about it. That hurts us a lot.
But when he is on, he is a huge motivating factor and he can really lift to the occasion. His ability to get clearances and be a part of the play is very useful.

Neither is a great forward, but both could be better if we had more idea HOW to go forward.
Kreuzer can lead quite well, but he can't lead into the mess that is our forwards line very often. When going for pack marks he gets bodied out or he drops the mark. For a guy with his mobility, he appears to lose it when playing forward. If (and it is a Huge IF) we could make space like St Kilda did at the weekend, then Kreuzer could be a serious danger. But as a serial pack marker, he has no idea.
Phillips is similar in that respect. He has a turn of pace and a decent lead, and he can kick a goal from decent distances, but he does not make space well. He needs space to move into. Like Kreuzer, if we could open things out a bit, he could be much more dangerous. However, he is not hugely strong and gets out-bodied. He can take a HUGE screamer, but he needs a run at the ball. He rarely gets it. He doesn't judge the ball as well as some either, which is a surprise considering he judges the ball at the centre bounce very well.
Either of them could be more effective if we had small forwards who could crumb. We just don't get crumbing goals.

Then there are the alternatives; Jones, Jaksch and so on. I am not sure why Jones does not get more of a try. We played reasonably well when he was playing. Unlike last year he is working hard enough to warrant a game, breaking packs and not getting out-marked all that often. He even can kick a snap goal. I wonder why he is on the outer. He got games last year he did not deserve and now cannot get in when he deserves to.
I would also try Jaksch more. He has issues, but he has done enough to get a go.

Any of the above could be more effective if we moved the ball better, especially if we stopped bombing the ball to packs and started lowering the eyes. We move the ball well enough until it comes time to kick it into the forward line. Then we have no idea, turn the ball over, get the kick smothered, etc. Having someone LEAD and provide a decent target would be almost miraculous.
When Casboult does it, he often takes the grab. He looks unbeatable then. But then he takes so long that there are no options when he kicks it. Or we are so slow that he cannot run onto the ball when it goes over the back. That was painfully clear against Adelaide: time and again the ball would go over the back (well, missing the target but we worry about that), where our forwards would fumble the ball and get caught, the bounce would go over our heads, or the forwards would be too slow and get run down. Then, of course, there is missing the target so badly the defenders get it and can run it back with no pressure.

Re: Rd 21: Pre Game Speculations: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #11 – August 09, 2016, 12:24:13 pm

Quote from: crashlander – on August 08, 2016, 06:37:02 pm

Alas we probably need both ruckmen: it was one spot where Brisbane did well against us last time and is still one of their real strengths. However, they do not have to be on the field at the same time. Having some forward options wouldn't hurt us at all. Even more of they can play.

Exactly! And Bolton gets that better than some supporters apparently.

BTW, Phillips, who is allegedly the better mark of our two, took no marks against the Saints while Kreuzer took 3. They should be nullifying the opposition ruck(s) at a minimum and that means clunking more and spoiling more.

Re: Rd 21: Pre Game Speculations: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #12 – August 09, 2016, 12:24:26 pm

I know that their VFL form warranted it, but the season has gone and we are playing a young side in Brisbane so bring in Cunningham, McKay and Glass-McCasker, give them a taste of what pace AFL goes at, they can't go worse than Graham, Thomas and Walker last week.

Re: Rd 21: Pre Game Speculations: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #13 – August 09, 2016, 12:55:15 pm

I would really prefer to snag a couple of wins to round out the year. It would be good for team morale and would end the year on a positive note. Play our strongest possible squad IMO and hopefully they will have recovered from last Sun's trough.

Re: Rd 21: Pre Game Speculations: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #14 – August 09, 2016, 01:05:24 pm

Quote from: DJC – on August 09, 2016, 12:24:13 pm

Exactly! And Bolton gets that better than some supporters apparently.

BTW, Phillips, who is allegedly the better mark of our two, took no marks against the Saints while Kreuzer took 3. They should be nullifying the opposition ruck(s) at a minimum and that means clunking more and spoiling more.

Just on that, you are right, Kreuzer took 2 more than his average marks last game. Phillips took less than his average and did nothing around the ground. That was a big loss for us.

When our rucks play like that I can understand why Iaj wants only one ruckman in the side. It is a source of frustration for everyone.

One person who did the job you mention, DJC, was Robert Warnock, before his injuries basically immobilized him. He new he was not fast, but he did stay with his man and usually spoilt, as he was also not the strongest mark. He was actually good at making his opposition ruckman not get many marks, especially around 2010 - 2011.
What hurt him was that he didn't take marks going the other way. As a result he was always on the defensive and thinking defensively. His opponents knew that he would not try to get the ball himself. That wasn't so bad as his motor was much better than was generally expected. But later on, in the last year or 2 of his career, he lost that. The results were not good.
About the only mark I can remember him taking in the forward line was against Geelong. He was knocked out in the process and missed the kick as a result. Hence we lost a game we should have won.

We could use our rucks better and use them as a more mobile target, especially Kreuzer, who is better below his knees than most of his opponents. Unfortunately our rucks go to the pack and don't get the ball.