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Topic: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide (Read 50922 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #105 –
Quote from: flyboy77 – on
Neither Gibbs, Murphy or Kreuzer has ever really been a stand out #1 draft pick....

Good, but very seldom great i.e. match winners.

I reckon in each case - if we had our time again - different choices would be made....

Hopefully Weitering comes good!

Just seems to me that the good teams just recruit mature ruckmen who are ready to go.



2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #106 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Just seems to me that the good teams just recruit mature ruckmen who are ready to go.

But how do clubs get to that point & who do they use in the meantime ? 

Hawks (before premierships) were making do with the likes of Simon Taylor, & Brett Renouf (once successful they brought in David Hale....& did very well out of him)
Cats had a long term ruck (King) who they'd had for years before they became a force (which is similar to us with Kruezer). 
Collingwood bought in Jolly from Swans when they were looking like they were a chance, before 2010 they were using Wood & Leigh Brown !
Swans, luckily had Mumford as well.....they've done well with rucks over the years, they have.....ironically, so have Melbourne somehow ????
Life is pain....... anyone who says differently is selling something.

Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #107 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Just seems to me that the good teams just recruit mature ruckmen who are ready to go.

Who are the AFLs current top ruckmen, and how were they drafted?

I would think more than half the current 2018 top rated 1st rucks were Rnd 1 or 2 draft picks by the club they play for, also a good percentage of them still play for the club they were drafted for.

Of those who have moved, a couple are the case were they left because they were not better than the existing first ruck option.

Subjectively, it seems the hit rate for success on picking a ruck early in the draft is no better or worse than any other player, but I appreciate the time-frame for a return on that pick can be significant given that rucks typically peak in their late 20s. The issue of No.1 versus other early picks is more about what individual clubs need at the time, not who is necessarily the very best player, and even so it's still a coin toss if any individual pick will be a success!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #108 –
Quote from: BluePhantom – on
Who was the last consistent performing match winning number 1 pick from any club?
Most of the really good players come later in the draft.

The number one pick is a dangerous thing to have....it basically means you have to pick on the safe side......you just can't afford to gamble on someone else who might have a bigger upside....but is not a guaranteed 200 game player.......and this is the very reason that it is a false economy for the bottom placed sides.

You're absolutely right BluePhantom, there haven't been many elite gun players picked at #1 have there.
Life is pain....... anyone who says differently is selling something.

Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #109 –
Quote from: BluePhantom – on
Who was the last consistent performing match winning number 1 pick from any club?
Most of the really good players come later in the draft.

Hodge and Riewoldt probably, and maybe Patton, most of the rest have been very good players but not match winners.
If you stack them all up over the last 25 years Murphy, Gibbs and Kreuzer more than hold their own.
The only thing in this world worth more than a hill of beans is the Carlton Football Club.

Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #110 –
I agree. And I would think if Kreuzer had stayed fit, we'd be having a whole different discussion about picking a ruck at number one, and there'd be a whole lot less hype about the overrated bloke from WC.

Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #111 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
I posted stats, you post gobbledy gook.

You want it to be, but the only non-subjective measure we have is when they played in the same games with or against each other. Everything else you write is opinion!

It's the accepted way to measure sporting talent, the very same way many sports establish the best of the best, by examining their results either side by side or head to head.

If I looked at Jacobs versus all teams, Carlton is middle of the field.

Sam Jacobs Against Opposition Teams

Hardly dominant!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"
 

Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #112 –
Quote from: deags – on
I agree. And I would think if Kreuzer had stayed fit, we'd be having a whole different discussion about picking a ruck at number one, and there'd be a whole lot less hype about the overrated bloke from WC.

Kreuzer has only just reached the peak age for a ruckmen, and he was probably looking like one of our better players this season prior to his injury, that even includes Charlie's half game extravagances or Cripps high contested possession games.

As much rhetoric as fans like to post, I suspect the team would kill for a fit and in form Kreuzer out on the park with the rest of them! It clear to see how much weight he carries regarding the teams fortunes.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #113 –
He is like the armoured division that everyone lines up behind.
Him and Cripps on ball if both fit and firing will be devastating.

Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #114 –
Quote from: deags – on
He is like the armoured division that everyone lines up behind.
Him and Cripps on ball if both fit and firing will be devastating.

There is some irony in people labeling his pick a waste, historically in addition to rucking many suggested they wanted Kreuzer to be the winning KPF, the Cripps like midfielder(Even before Cripps joined Carlton it was SpecialK that was proposed as a Judd chop-out type), some have asked for him to play KPD when we were light on for gorilla type defenders, and we've seen him rove inside the F50 like we one day hope/want to see from McKay!

Not too bad for an alleged wasted pick, what more can he do?

Without naming names, I get the feeling that if some of the forum posters were put in charge of a council road crew, the first thing they would do is sack the person digging for failing to do everything! :o
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #115 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Pretty confident. ;)

But for those playing at home....

Sauce vs Kreuzer has occured 4 times previously.

Here is a quick breakdown.

R8, 2012 
Kreuzer (17HOs, 7 poss, 1 goal)
Jacobs (38, 6, 0)
*Hampson (29, 5, 0)

Sauce clearly better in the ruck than Kreuzer, so much so that Hampson was better than Kreuzer as well.

R10, 2015
Kreuzer (11, 11, 2)
Jacobs (39, 18, 1)
*Wood (17, 9, 0)

Sauce better than both Kreuzer and Wood combined. Despite kicking 2 goals to 1, our 2 players efforts were matched by their 1.

R16, 2016
Kreuzer (15,8,0)
Jacobs (36, 13, 3)
*Phillips (19,9, 0)

Sauce not only matched our 2 players efforts, but surpassed them with 3 goals. Jacobs 2 brownlow votes

R15, 2017
Kreuzer (42, 14, 0)
Jacobs (31, 10, 1)
*Casboult (8, 12, 2)
**Jenkins (9, 13, 3)

Even with Kreuzer in career best form, Jacobs was able to hit the scoreboard more, together with the respective backups.

So basically Jacobs has been able to outdo the work of 2 of our ruckmen himself in most instances.

I'll leave the argument to you guys but what I did notice that Kreuzer played his best game of those 4 when he was essentially the lone ruck. Kreuzer has very often been $hithouse when he has to share ruck duties but as lone luck with relief from Casboult he is a far better player. Goes from $hit to star.

That last game must've had a few stoppages, 50 hitouts to 40.

Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #116 –
Quote from: LP – on
You want it to be, but the only non-subjective measure we have is when they played in the same games with or against each other. Everything else you write is opinion!

It's the accepted way to measure sporting talent, the very same way many sports establish the best of the best, by examining their results either side by side or head to head.

If I looked at Jacobs versus all teams, Carlton is middle of the field.

Sam Jacobs Against Opposition Teams

Hardly dominant!

You seem to be forgetting the stats i wrote were exactly that!
If you don't trust the stats, see who has more brownlow votes in head to head. Sauce 2-0.

I don't care who is the better ruckman against other teams. Its not about that! Its about head to head and their matchup this week. Nothing else matters. We can have the same discussion every week with Kreuzer vs ***** and it will be different.

You keep trying totwist the argument into something it is not as deflection.

Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #117 –
Quote from: laj – on
I'll leave the argument to you guys but what I did notice that Kreuzer played his best game of those 4 when he was essentially the lone ruck. Kreuzer has very often been $hithouse when he has to share ruck duties but as lone luck with relief from Casboult he is a far better player. Goes from $hit to star.

That last game must've had a few stoppages, 50 hitouts to 40.

Lone ruck??
You've been telling everyone for years that casboult is so important to us because he is a 2nd ruckman and cant be judged as just a key forward.  :-[

Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #118 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
You keep trying to twist the argument into something it is not as deflection.

Nope.

Neither of your arguments stack up, either head to head or side by side Jacobs has not outperformed Kreuzer. And Jacobs has been nothing special on average when he played against us either!

Both have had good games, but hardly anything to claim dominance!

Given how good Jacobs seems to go against some of the other clubs, we can probably undeniably rate our result as a win whether you think Kreuzer was good or bad!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: 2018 Rd 7: Pre Game Paranoia: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #119 –
Quote from: LP – on
Nope.

Neither of your arguments stack up, either head to head or side by side Jacobs has not outperformed Kreuzer. And Jacobs has been nothing special on average when he played against us either!

Both have had good games, but hardly anything to claim dominance!

Given how good Jacobs seems to go against some of the other clubs, we can probably undeniably rate our result as a win whether you think Kreuzer was good or bad!

Brownlow votes head to head. Jacobs 2 - Kreuzer 0.