Re: 2018 Rd 20: Post Game Calm & Civilized Discussion: Carlton vs GWS Reply #90 – August 05, 2018, 10:43:12 pm I think we can appreciate that in many ways this is a learning experience.But we didn't get beaten by GWS today....we got beaten by half of GWS....and in the last quarter about a third of GWS.Yes, we had significant outs as well but full strength v full strength it would have been a similar result.The thing is...when they announced this rebuild back in 2015 did anyone expect us to be sitting last with 2 wins at this stage of 2018.Sure we expected there would be some backward movement...but to this extent?Injuries...a problemNot being able to attract experienced quality players...a problem.Some not developing as quickly as we'd like...also a problemBut problems that should have been foreseen and factored in.The unexpected will always bite you in the bum.The time for radical changes is not now...but this season is done and dusted and we need to look at the future in pretty harsh, realistic terms.2019 needs to be a no excuse year...you go hard or go elsewhere.Lesson time is over.It's time for big school.There is much work to be done and we need to shake this idea that everything will work out fine if we just let the plan roll along. Quote Selected
Re: 2018 Rd 20: Post Game Calm & Civilized Discussion: Carlton vs GWS Reply #91 – August 05, 2018, 10:46:40 pm Quote from: deags – on August 05, 2018, 10:40:38 pmAs long as we don't kill MORE players, mentally and physically, than what we already have.These guys need confidence as much as they need anything else. Letting them get drilled by 16 players, by 18 goals is not good for them in any sense.The losses, if they are handled correctly, can hold them in good stead. GWS used to get flogged regularly in their early days. If they're not handled correctly, then yes, they can cause damage. Quote Selected
Re: 2018 Rd 20: Post Game Calm & Civilized Discussion: Carlton vs GWS Reply #92 – August 05, 2018, 10:51:57 pm And IMO, you and others are focussing on the 1 or 2 player surplus way too much. Having a couple of extra players doesn't suddenly improve our skills, it doesn't mean we now hit targets, it doesn't mean we suddenly have players with 100-150 games under their belts, it doesn't mean we suddenly have battle hardened bodies etc. GWS and other teams can easily cover two extra players for now. Quote Selected
Re: 2018 Rd 20: Post Game Calm & Civilized Discussion: Carlton vs GWS Reply #93 – August 05, 2018, 10:55:11 pm I cant see anything good coming from that last quarter.Guys were getting rubbed down on the sidelines while 16 of their teammates were flogging the opposition.That will be highlighted this week.It's something the players will have to deal with.I think we need to be careful with GWS comparisons too.Their development situation bears no resemblance to ours. Their draft concessions allowed them to draft the cream of young talent and trade for experienced mature players.Whatever time it took for them to develop, multiply that by two or three for us if we follow a similar pathGWS were given dollars to buy and trade with...we only have cents. Quote Selected
Re: 2018 Rd 20: Post Game Calm & Civilized Discussion: Carlton vs GWS Reply #94 – August 05, 2018, 11:11:03 pm Quote from: blue4life – on August 05, 2018, 10:36:46 pmWhat else can we do other than look around for cheap players? We go to the draft and then try and trade in the best we can get but players like Dangerfield, Franklin and Treloar don't want to come to Carlton so we're left with the dregs. It won't change until we start winning.I tend to agree B4L. We'd generally only attract players for a limited range of reasons. Such as field or team position, personnel, location, $ etc. I'd guess most players in the trade window not seeking what we're offering are after on field success and will not consider us. See last trade season. As a result SOS has very limited options. Thus we shop from the recycle bin. As SOS has said, some work out others don't. Some were specifically recruited to protect our young kids in the VFL. We all know what happened to that plan starting with Docherty's acl Quote Selected
Re: 2018 Rd 20: Post Game Calm & Civilized Discussion: Carlton vs GWS Reply #95 – August 05, 2018, 11:28:13 pm Quote from: PaulP – on August 05, 2018, 10:42:02 pmI get that. But I think there is a sweet spot between the Treloars of this world and the Mullets, and I'm just wondering if we can become better at identifying them ?The sweet spot spot at the moment is Kennedy and Lang, Mullet was dirt cheap and recruited as insurance only. The sweet spot will get sweeter as we start winning more games which will happen as this crop of youth matures. I remember Richmond screaming when Geelong poached Ottens, the wheel turns. Quote Selected
Re: 2018 Rd 20: Post Game Calm & Civilized Discussion: Carlton vs GWS Reply #96 – August 06, 2018, 05:46:06 am Quote from: blue4life – on August 05, 2018, 11:28:13 pmThe sweet spot spot at the moment is Kennedy and Lang, Mullet was dirt cheap and recruited as insurance only. The sweet spot will get sweeter as we start winning more games which will happen as this crop of youth matures. I remember Richmond screaming when Geelong poached Ottens, the wheel turns.What we must do in the interim is bid players values up.If they won’t come to us that’s one thing but giving other clubs cap relief is madness unless we get a great deal.We need to jump on board with North and make these other clubs pay Quote Selected
Re: 2018 Rd 20: Post Game Calm & Civilized Discussion: Carlton vs GWS Reply #97 – August 06, 2018, 07:28:47 am Quote from: blue4life – on August 05, 2018, 11:28:13 pmThe sweet spot spot at the moment is Kennedy and Lang, Mullet was dirt cheap and recruited as insurance only. The sweet spot will get sweeter as we start winning more games which will happen as this crop of youth matures. I remember Richmond screaming when Geelong poached Ottens, the wheel turns.Yes, I guess you're right. Quote Selected
Re: 2018 Rd 20: Post Game Calm & Civilized Discussion: Carlton vs GWS Reply #98 – August 06, 2018, 10:42:19 am Quote from: JonHenry – on August 06, 2018, 05:46:06 amWhat we must do in the interim is bid players values up.If they won’t come to us that’s one thing but giving other clubs cap relief is madness unless we get a great deal.We need to jump on board with North and make these other clubs payNorth have a history of picking up good players cheap, Bell, Sinclair and Pike come to mind, they also generally make astute trades with Hay being one exception.Shcwass for Grant was a beauty. They've always been low on resources so they've developed a culture accordingly, Carlton came from the other end of the spectrum and it's something we have struggled with. Quote Selected
Re: 2018 Rd 20: Post Game Calm & Civilized Discussion: Carlton vs GWS Reply #99 – August 06, 2018, 10:52:08 am Quote from: PaulP – on August 05, 2018, 05:16:09 pmDead set jet.Whitfield is 24, with 100 games. His first couple of years, people were questioning why he was taken no 1.Sound familiar???2 or 3 seasons and hoepfully Dow, OBrien, SPS, Cunningham and a few others are thought of the same Quote Selected
Re: 2018 Rd 20: Post Game Calm & Civilized Discussion: Carlton vs GWS Reply #100 – August 06, 2018, 10:55:41 am Quote from: Milhanna13 – on August 06, 2018, 10:52:08 amWhitfield is 24, with 100 games. His first couple of years, people were questioning why he was taken no 1.Sound familiar???2 or 3 seasons and hoepfully Dow, OBrien, SPS, Cunningham and a few others are thought of the sameYes, I was probably one of those who couldn't see what the fuss was about. I certainly hope plenty of our boys end up the same or similar. Quote Selected
Re: 2018 Rd 20: Post Game Calm & Civilized Discussion: Carlton vs GWS Reply #101 – August 06, 2018, 10:59:33 am Quote from: Baggers – on August 05, 2018, 05:02:50 pmAs has been the past 3. Do you really trust our blokes to get it right? Most of the cr@p traded in over the past 3 years has been a big fail. But wonderful favours to other clubs.Yes, list shallowness and injuries contribute but the spiritless effort from the start (there have been many this year, actually) suggests bigger problems in other areas.Maybe im in the minority, but i do trust SOS when he says, we werent trying to recruit any big name players the past 3 years - it has all been about getting kids through the door.This offseason will be the huge test. We can test the theory that we are no longer a destination club. I am hoping this is media bullsht, and we still are CARLTON, and will get a few big fishI reckon, internally, the club knew this season would be disasterous, onfield - but you cant really tell the public, can you - not great membership campaign Quote Selected
Re: 2018 Rd 20: Post Game Calm & Civilized Discussion: Carlton vs GWS Reply #102 – August 06, 2018, 11:12:46 am Quote from: PaulP – on August 05, 2018, 10:10:46 pmYes agree. I think it should give pause for thought when he gets criticised for match day tactics. If you want to get your kids to perform to a particular level, you don't set easier tests - you get them to practice and practice at the required level until they learn. It's as ugly as sin to watch, but here's hoping it will hold them in good stead. I think this is also part of the reason why he refuses to use more than 1 tagger. He could end up being a failure, but there is method in his approach.Yep this is also why I thought all season he is not wildly swinging the game plan around.We are pretty ordinary at what he wants us to do being the issue, and they aren't going to learn how to do it by not doing it. Quote Selected
Re: 2018 Rd 20: Post Game Calm & Civilized Discussion: Carlton vs GWS Reply #103 – August 06, 2018, 11:45:24 am Quote from: Milhanna13 – on August 06, 2018, 10:52:08 amWhitfield is 24, with 100 games. His first couple of years, people were questioning why he was taken no 1.I don't recall it that way, Whitfield was a gun from day one, the main question was how Tom Scully could possibly be on bigger money than Whitfield!For a historical perspective, take a look at the Inside Football AFL Player Ratings archive.Whitfield's first season;Quote2013 Season1 Syd No.1 draft pick didn’t set the world on fire but showed enough. 42 Port Looked every bit the No.1 draft pick and impressed all night. 73 StK Only two of his 12 touches were kicks but he showed a couple of glimpses. 34 Melb Clean, composed and classy with ball in hand. His best outing yet at this level. 75 GCS Again showed glimpses of exciting talent. 56 (Soreness) 7 Adel Not the worst but was fighting against the tide. 58 Haw Most of disposals were handballs. Subbed off in third term. 39 WCE For such a young player his poise and decision-making is already first class. 510 Carl Good in patches and used the ball well. 611 Geel Sub. All class when he came on to grab seven disposals. 212 Port Good battle with Broadbent for much of the day. Ball use and smarts stood out. 614 NM Class player. When he got it a teammate was on the end of it. 715 WB Such a good user of the ball, he also took nine marks. 716 Syd Had 12 possessions in first term, but slowed down after that. Plenty to work with. 617 Ess A little subdued this week, but his disposal is outstanding for one so young. 418 (Rested) 19 Melb Classy performer with two goals, 26 possessions. Showed why he was pick No.1. 820 Frem Only one kick in first half and five for the game. Struggled all afternoon. 221 Bris First lined-up on Mayes but still had a solid match. Gifted a goal by Cameron. 622 (Back) 23 GCS Provided plenty of options running wide and was solid. 5btw., If we want Whitfield he is gettable, he wants home more than Gaff or Lynch. Quote Selected Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 11:47:38 am by LP
Re: 2018 Rd 20: Post Game Calm & Civilized Discussion: Carlton vs GWS Reply #104 – August 06, 2018, 11:52:47 am Quote from: Milhanna13 – on August 06, 2018, 10:59:33 amMaybe im in the minority, but i do trust SOS when he says, we werent trying to recruit any big name players the past 3 years - it has all been about getting kids through the door.This offseason will be the huge test. We can test the theory that we are no longer a destination club. I am hoping this is media bullsht, and we still are CARLTON, and will get a few big fishI reckon, internally, the club knew this season would be disasterous, onfield - but you cant really tell the public, can you - not great membership campaignThink we had a go at a few big fish like Kelly, Sheil and then last season tried to get mid sized fish Rockliff,Smith, Saad etc and tried for Caddy the previous years when we traded Touhy..so I think SOS might be bending the truth that we didnt try...the money got big and the real big fish said no..When you are bottom you are not going to be a destination club unless you are paying big overs and recruiting does get hard.......the job is much harder for SOS than his GWS days and having a inexperienced coach doesn't help either..Sheedy I hate with a passion but he was a good salesman and players like Ward, Davis, Heath Shaw, Mumford were nice gets to help build a team, if we had those types we wouldnt be bottom.Agree you cant sell misery because that wont sell memberships but I think the Carlton supporters are fairly switched on to where we are at and its crossroads in 2019....its what the media sell to the public as a reasonable goal for 2019.....I dont see what the club sell as being as being taken seriously anymore....green shoots, synergies, defined by pressure wont be acceptable in 2019. Quote Selected