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Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #30 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Looking ok but those Hawks three were something else to pick up in one year...Buddy is a freak, Roughead the ultimate team man and cool head plus Lewis
a brutal tough nut who could also play at the top level.
Ours our talented but those Hawks had a real self confident attitude to go with the talent and the ideal coach in Clarko to harness it all.

I was told by a Carlton Recruiting scout that our recruiting dept considered Lewis  a fat slow kid wiht no upside who would never make it and he was just a flat track U18 bully..we could have those three Hawk picks and fecked up the three of them IMO...

That's what they said about Cripps, Diesel, Sam Mitchell......

I'm starting to think that if any kid is described as fat and slow, we should nab them as soon as possible. It seems to be footy code for "elite midfielder."

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #31 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
That's what they said about Cripps, Diesel, Sam Mitchell......

I'm starting to think that if any kid is described as fat and slow, we should nab them as soon as possible. It seems to be footy code for "elite midfielder."

Mitchell was another who they just picked up for nothing from Box Hill after being overlooked, our recruiters had this athletic upside theme to their recruiting and were
happy to ignore real footballers who didnt look likely to be the next Usain Bolt anytime soon....
Its about balance when you recruit, for every athlete you need a footballer with a footballers brain to compliment them.....unless you recruit a Buddy who has the lot.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #32 –
I remember Lewis' U/18 year.
I hoped we would draft him....he had footy poisoning he got so much of the ball

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #33 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Mitchell was another who they just picked up for nothing from Box Hill after being overlooked, our recruiters had this athletic upside theme to their recruiting and were
happy to ignore real footballers who didnt look likely to be the next Usain Bolt anytime soon....
Its about balance when you recruit, for every athlete you need a footballer with a footballers brain to compliment them.....unless you recruit a Buddy who has the lot.

Yes, agree EB. They were probably looking for the new Kouta.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #34 –
Yep,  and too busy trying be outsmart the pack with Hail Mary picks... Raso,  Tiller,  Edwards, Temay.

But our rookie punts were good,  something we haven't been able to emulate.

I look at those picks and think, where was the upside even if those kids were capable?  None of them were going to be the next Kouta for example.
DrE is no more... you ok with that harmonica man?

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #35 –
Quote from: Professer E – on
Yep,  and too busy trying be outsmart the pack with Hail Mary picks... Raso,  Tiller,  Edwards, Temay.

But our rookie punts were good,  something we haven't been able to emulate.

I look at those picks and think, where was the upside even if those kids were capable?  None of them were going to be the next Kouta for example.

Prof...was it Hotcox who said Edwards was going to be the next big thing?

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #37 –
Everyone wanted Swallow, we got Raso.
DrE is no more... you ok with that harmonica man?

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #39 –
Sorry,  can you remind me,  were there actually any winners in his multitude of "sure fire" certainties?
DrE is no more... you ok with that harmonica man?

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #40 –
Quote from: Professer E – on
Sorry,  can you remind me,  were there actually any winners in his multitude of "sure fire" certainties?

Nope.

Best one was Chris Judd was broken when we recruited him. Wouldn't plays at all in his first season. Which was reduced to wouldn't play at all until round 10. Obviously went on to play every game, including intra-club matches in the pre-season. Only missed about 4 games over the next 4 years and won a brownlow.

But broken and won't play.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #41 –
Put it this way,  if you went out chasing chicks with Hotcox you'd have had better chances staying home with a six pack and a pizza.
DrE is no more... you ok with that harmonica man?

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #42 –
Quote from: Professer E – on
Put it this way,  if you went out chasing chicks with Hotcox you'd have had better chances staying home with a six pack and a pizza.

He was remarkably consistent in that way.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #43 –
I've said it before, and i'll say it again.  The last few years have been all about development, at the expense of winning.  Games were pumped into the kids, even last year, when I thought it was time to play the best team for a win, not the best team for the future.  Think Dow, LOB, etc... getting games when we had mature & experienced spuds in the VFL that would have served the team better, and might have landed us an extra win or two.  That accelerated development has come at a cost.  The expectations for wins previously have clearly been lower, with the emphasis on development.  Now the boys hardly even know what it means to win.

I see the last 3 seasons as almost purely list building and development.  Now we have a list that does not have a MASSIVE talent gap under 25.  Now we have a list of very talented players under 25. 

The list from 2015 below tells you EXACTLY why we are where we are now.  Judd does his knee and retires.  Otherwise we have a handful of good players (mostly older), and the rest very, very ordinary.  How the hell SOS turned that list into our current list in 3/4 years is a miracle.  Again, it came at a cost.  The only players with currency traded out for picks.  Experience out the door, kids in the door, and gifted games. 

We all agree that now is the time to win, and I believe the team is now being picked to win (regardless of what some may say).  I see the start of this year as the BEGINNING of our climb.  We have just reached base camp.  Team continuity, and experience playing together as a stable squad is what we can now build on. 

Whether BB is the right coach or not, I am certain the club must stay the course, and not panic.  This has been the most brutal ground up rebuild of an AFL club I have ever seen, and it has come at a cost.  The rewards are just around the corner.  Stay calm, do not panic yet.  We will start winning, and if BB is the right man, we will start winning this year.  I will be happy with 5 wins this season.  Every previous season we have finished abysmally, even worse than the start of the season if that is possible...  If BB can get 4 or 5 more wins in the remainder of the season it tells me all I need to know.  If he can't, then he's on thin ice.  Winning isn't everything.  Yet.  But it will be soon.

Senior List[9]
No.   State   Player   Age   AFL Debut   Recruited from   Career (to end 2014)   2015 Player Statistics
Gms   Gls   Gms   Gls   B   D   K   HB   M   T   HO
1   Victoria (Australia)   Andrew Walker   28   2004   Bendigo (U18)   179   118   12   12   6   163   106   57   48   22   1
2   South Australia           Troy Menzel   20   2013   Central District   26   34   14   13   7   130   87   43   46   24   –
3   Victoria (Australia)   Marc Murphy (c)   27   2006   Oakleigh (U18)   185   143   19   7   6   510   291   219   79   65   1
4   South Australia           Bryce Gibbs (vc)   25   2007   Glenelg   177   98   10   4   5   209   112   97   21   54   7
5   Victoria (Australia)   Chris Judd   31   2002   Sandringham (U18), West Coast   271   224   8   4   2   148   76   72   20   21   –
6   Victoria (Australia)   Kade Simpson   30   2003   Eastern (U18)   222   121   20   3   1   460   285   175   118   42   1
7   Victoria (Australia)   Dylan Buckley   21   2013   Northern (U18)   8   2   18   5   5   258   152   106   65   38   –
8   Victoria (Australia)   Matthew Kreuzer   25   2008   Northern (U18)   106   56   13   9   5   166   91   75   40   55   276
9   Western Australia   Patrick Cripps   19   2014   East Fremantle   3   –   20   6   13   471   158   313   64   98   39
10   Victoria (Australia)   Matthew Watson   22   2011   Calder (U18)   19   6   4   4   2   32   23   9   18   8   1
11   Victoria (Australia)   Robert Warnock   27   2007   Sandringham (U18), Fremantle   86   17   2   –   –   18   8   10   1   3   56
12   Western Australia   Blaine Boekhorst   21   2015   Swan Districts   –   –   11   5   9   138   76   62   24   26   –
13   Western Australia   Chris Yarran   24   2009   Swan Districts   105   87   14   3   2   223   182   41   68   33   –
14   Tasmania                   Liam Jones   23   2010   North Hobart, Western Bulldogs   66   68   9   7   9   65   46   19   31   18   –
15   Victoria (Australia)   Sam Docherty   21   2013   Gippsland (U18), Brisbane Lions   29   8   19   2   2   401   260   141   116   40   1
16   Victoria (Australia)   Dillon Viojo-Rainbow   18   –   Western (U18)   –   –   –   –   –   –   –   –   –   –   –
17   New South Wales   Sam Rowe (lg)   27   2013   Murray (U18), Sydney, Norwood   31   11   20   2   –   211   125   86   79   43   28
18   Victoria (Australia)   Kristian Jaksch   20   2013   Oakleigh (U18), GWS   7   2   6   1   2   62   39   23   26   8   –
19   South Australia           Cameron Giles   19   –   Woodville-West Torrens   –   –   –   –   –   –   –   –   –   –   –
20   Victoria (Australia)   Nick Holman   19   2014   Murray (U18)   1   –   8   –   –   75   31   44   15   31   –
22   Australian Capital Territory   Jason Tutt   23   2011   Ainslie, Western Bulldogs   26   22   13   4   5   218   128   90   55   35   –
23   Victoria (Australia)   Lachlan Henderson (lg)   26   2007   Geelong (U18), Brisbane   101   88   16   16   10   189   134   55   96   24   2
24   New South Wales   Mark Whiley   22   2012   Murray (U18), GWS   12   2   8   1   2   95   46   49   17   33   19
25   Western Australia   Clem Smith   18   2015   Perth   –   –   7   –   –   55   24   31   11   9   –
26   Victoria (Australia)   Jayden Foster   19   –   Calder (U18)   –   –   –   –   –   –   –   –   –   –   –
27   Western Australia   Dennis Armfield   28   2008   Swan Districts   113   44   12   13   10   145   88   57   25   36   –
28   Queensland          Tom Bell   23   2012   Morningside   29   19   22   17   14   465   295   170   97   87   16
31   Victoria (Australia)   Matthew Dick   20   2015   Calder (U18), Sydney   –   –   6   –   2   70   40   30   20   12   –
32   Victoria (Australia)   Nicholas Graham   20   2013   Gippsland (U18)   10   2   6   3   1   104   51   53   15   29   –
33   Victoria (Australia)   Andrejs Everitt   25   2007   Dandenong (U18), Western Bulldogs, Sydney   96   45   22   31   20   334   225   109   132   30   16
35   Victoria (Australia)   Ed Curnow   25   2011   Geelong (U18), Adelaide, Box Hill   66   11   22   –   3   478   216   262   75   98   –
39   Victoria (Australia)   Dale Thomas   27   2006   Gippsland (U18), Collingwood   177   133   5   2   2   70   42   28   20   6   –
40   Victoria (Australia)   Michael Jamison (vc)   28   2007   North Ballarat (U18, VFL)   131   2   14   –   –   132   74   58   56   15   3
41   Victoria (Australia)   Levi Casboult   24   2012   Dandenong (U18)   36   29   16   24   12   150   100   50   83   15   86
42   Republic of Ireland   Zach Tuohy   25   2011   Laois GAA   76   25   22   9   3   414   239   175   107   24   –
43   Western Australia   Simon White   26   2010   Subiaco   45   9   14   1   1   156   93   63   42   26   7
44   Victoria (Australia)   Andrew Carrazzo   31   2004   Oakleigh (U18), Geelong   178   47   16   1   3   365   128   237   40   63   –
46   Western Australia   David Ellard

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #44 –
Great post Tragic.

I decided to actually track how SOS used very limited currency on that 2015 list into what we have today.

Still on the list:
  • Marc Murphy
    Kade Simpson
    Matthew Kreuzer
    Patrick Cripps
    Liam Jones
    Sam Docherty
    Ed Curnow
    Dale Thomas
    Levi Casboult

All these players are still contributing to the current team when fit.

Retired/Delisted/Gone for nothing:
  • Andrew Walker
    Chris Judd
    Matthew Watson
    Robert Warnock
    Blaine Boekhorst
    Dillon Viojo-Rainbow
    Sam Rowe
    Kristian Jaksch
    Cameron Giles
    Nick Holman
    Jason Tutt
    Mark Whiley
    Clem Smith
    Jayden Foster
    Dennis Armfield
    Dylan Buckley
    Matthew Dick
    Nicholas Graham
    Andrejs Everitt
    Michael Jamison
    Simon White
    Andrew Carrazzo
    David Ellard

Lost some good players to retirement, and cleared a LOT of rubbish.
Probably the only one here that is still contributing at another team is Nick Holman.

Trades:
  • Troy Menzel, Lachlan Henderson > Phillips, Plowman, McKay
    Tom Bell > C.Curnow
    Chris Yarran > Cunningham
    Zach Tuohy > Polson, Marchbank, Pickett, Macreadie, Williamson, Kerr
    Bryce Gibbs > O'Brien, Schumacher, De Koning, McGovern

This is where it gets interesting.
I think SOS has done EXTREMELY well in converting just a few players with currency into some quality and depth coming back. The players we got where either from trading the picks we received, or using those picks in the draft.

I can't see anyone making a reasonable argument that SOS could have done any better in going from that 2015 list to now.