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Re: Carlton vs Brisbane Practice Match

Reply #180 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Given the power structures, lines of reporting, club direction, decision making etc., you cannot view a coach's record in isolation, nor as a sole indicator of ability.

Who said i was?

I was comparing him to every other coach during similar circumstances at our club.
I was comparing him to Teague who took over after him.

They are apples and apples.

If you want to take that a step further and compare against coaches who have coached 80 games or more, then he has the 2nd worst record....or worst in 100 years.
Now, we've had some issues during this time, sure. 25 years since our last flag.
But.....Swans, Dogs went 60-70 years, Cats 50+ years, Dees are 60 years now, Dockers haven't won one in their 25 years....saints have only won 1 in 125 years of footy.
Fitzroy have been booted from the competition. Bears too.

So there are plenty of 'crap teams/clubs etc' going around.....but none have performed worse than with our mate.

So compare him to whoever you want past, present and future. He was found lacking. Simple.

I'm not saying its 100% his fault.....but you are saying its 0% his fault....and i cannot buy that....and nobody else seems to either.

Whatever % it is in reality is purely speculative.....but it is not zero....or 1%....it is somewhat significant.

Re: Carlton vs Brisbane Practice Match

Reply #181 –
After 11 games, both he and Dinkum Dave have the same record. And our pre season wasn't great, so once the 2019 post bye euphoria wears off, there's not much in it.

Winning flags is the ultimate, but most clubs think of regular finals, and I guess going deep into finals, as a measure of success. What happened 50 years ago is not really relevant. Thinking of more recent times, he is the latest in a long line of entrenched failure. You may feel a certain smug satisfaction from believing he failed more than our other recent coaches, but I see no value in ranking failure. A spoon is a spoon, and a sacking is a sacking. If you want to count 1 win here, and 1 loss there,  knock yourself out.

Re: Carlton vs Brisbane Practice Match

Reply #182 –
Quote from: Professer E – on
We didn't ruin Malthouse,  he was a shot duck before we hired him.   Burned out,  finished,  whatever,  he was cooked and never committed to the task.   Seriously,  instead of assessing the list etc  he went on a book promotional tour.   Wasted years.

In 2011, 12 months before we hired him. Malthouse took his team to the minor premiership, a GF appearance, and a % of 167.7. That % is the best of any team since 2000, still not bested to this day.

He became a shot duck after he came to us, when he realised that he was working for a bunch of provincial lunkheads who would not be out of place on The Beverly Hillbillies.

In the interest of honesty and transparency, I implore the Carlton Football Club to install a device on the senior coach's door that calls out the word "sucker" every time it opens and closes.

Re: Carlton vs Brisbane Practice Match

Reply #183 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
In 2011, 12 months before we hired him. Malthouse took his team to the minor premiership, a GF appearance, and a % of 167.7. That % is the best of any team since 2000, still not bested to this day.

He became a shot duck after he came to us, when he realised that he was working for a bunch of provincial lunkheads who would not be out of place on The Beverly Hillbillies.

In the interest of honesty and transparency, I implore the Carlton Football Club to install a device on the senior coach's door that calls out the word "sucker" every time it opens and closes.


I think the duck was shot by Eddie with his Buckley transition plan.  Losing his job, at what I’m sure Malthouse considered to be the height of his powers, knocked the stuffing out him.  His demeanour, and coaching, became more about self-preservation and self-interest and he seemed determined to prove that his tried and true approach would hold up when everyone else had moved on.

The situation was compounded by an ill-prepared, poorly-managed club giving him free rein, then making a shambles of trying to rein him in.

Bolton had the advantage of a united club but a dismal list.  Teague has a much stronger list, albeit with some issues, but I don’t think he has a united club behind him.  He certainly is under more pressure to succeed than Bolton did and that has the potential to send us spiralling out of control    :-\
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Carlton vs Brisbane Practice Match

Reply #184 –
Quote from: Professer E – on
We didn't ruin Malthouse,  he was a shot duck before we hired him.  

He was only fixated on 2 things:
Revenge against Eddie
Jock McHale’s coaching record.

Nothing else mattered!! (Oh, the paycheck helped!!)

Re: Carlton vs Brisbane Practice Match

Reply #185 –
Quote from: DJC – on
I think the duck was shot by Eddie with his Buckley transition plan.  Losing his job, at what I’m sure Malthouse considered to be the height of his powers, knocked the stuffing out him.  His demeanour, and coaching, became more about self-preservation and self-interest and he seemed determined to prove that his tried and true approach would hold up when everyone else had moved on.

The situation was compounded by an ill-prepared, poorly-managed club giving him free rein, then making a shambles of trying to rein him in.

Bolton had the advantage of a united club but a dismal list.  Teague has a much stronger list, albeit with some issues, but I don’t think he has a united club behind him.  He certainly is under more pressure to succeed than Bolton did and that has the potential to send us spiralling out of control    :-\

I agree in parts, disagree in others. The succession plan was in the works for 2 or 3 years, certainly through 2010 and 2011, and his record in those 2 seasons speaks for itself. So I think his tried and true methods were working quite well, and I don't think he was shot. I think the 2011 GF he was pretty overwrought and didn't have his best game, but that's probably understandable. What finished him off IMO was not Eddie, but us.

There's no doubt in my mind that Mick is a cunning old coot. You don't survive and thrive in the bear pits of various footy clubs for 30 years unless you are a tough, resilient political operator, with a sound (albeit layperson's) understanding of human behavior, interpersonal relationships, group dynamics etc. I'm not his greatest fan, but that was a bitter end to a very distinguished coaching career, needlessly bitter in my view.

Re: Carlton vs Brisbane Practice Match

Reply #186 –
Malthouse brought his "play the boundary" Collingwood rubbish to a Carlton list totally incapable in terms of skills in carrying out the plan.  It was inflexible, lazy and straight out dumb strategy. 

Re: Carlton vs Brisbane Practice Match

Reply #187 –
Quote from: capcom – on
Malthouse brought his "play the boundary" Collingwood rubbish to a Carlton list totally incapable in terms of skills in carrying out the plan.  It was inflexible, lazy and straight out dumb strategy. 

It's a turnovers game these days, and scoring from turnovers is valued very highly. All teams go around the boundary coming out of D50, precisely to minimise the opposition scoring.

Re: Carlton vs Brisbane Practice Match

Reply #188 –
I bashed Pagan more than anyone here but just like Malthouse he was a bonafide supercoach before arriving at Princes Park.

It's pretty clear it's us not them.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Carlton vs Brisbane Practice Match

Reply #189 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
After 11 games, both he and Dinkum Dave have the same record. And our pre season wasn't great, so once the 2019 post bye euphoria wears off, there's not much in it.

Winning flags is the ultimate, but most clubs think of regular finals, and I guess going deep into finals, as a measure of success. What happened 50 years ago is not really relevant. Thinking of more recent times, he is the latest in a long line of entrenched failure. You may feel a certain smug satisfaction from believing he failed more than our other recent coaches, but I see no value in ranking failure. A spoon is a spoon, and a sacking is a sacking. If you want to count 1 win here, and 1 loss there,  knock yourself out.

Unfortunately we can only regard the failure of a growing string of coaches as a collective failure of the club over a prolonged period of time. I don't believe any of us on here would know fully what has being going on behind the scenes and how it may have affected the coach and so I don't think that there is a  lot to be gained from finger pointing at individuals. I think though that there may still be a significant degree of turmoil in play at the club and I'm not really optimistic about the coming season. Just hope I'm wrong.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Carlton vs Brisbane Practice Match

Reply #190 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
I bashed Pagan more than anyone here but just like Malthouse he was a bonafide supercoach before arriving at Princes Park.

It's pretty clear it's us not them.

Yes, in the absence of any genuine facts or knowledge, the circumstantial evidence is, in my view, pretty overwhelming.

Re: Carlton vs Brisbane Practice Match

Reply #191 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
Unfortunately we can only regard the failure of a growing string of coaches as a collective failure of the club over a prolonged period of time. I don't believe any of us on here would know fully what has being going on behind the scenes and how it may have affected the coach and so I don't think that there is a  lot to be gained from finger pointing at individuals. I think though that there may still be a significant degree of turmoil in play at the club and I'm not really optimistic about the coming season. Just hope I'm wrong.

Yes, we only see the tip of the iceberg, and even then not very clearly. Still, this is an online version of mates at a pub, dinner party conversations, shooting the breeze at a bbq etc., so idle speculation and theorising is pretty much all we have.

Re: Carlton vs Brisbane Practice Match

Reply #192 –
Quote from: capcom – on
Malthouse brought his "play the boundary" Collingwood rubbish to a Carlton list totally incapable in terms of skills in carrying out the plan.  It was inflexible, lazy and straight out dumb strategy. 


Agree, trying to get a ball butcher list to play cute football was a big mistake, we needed a simple low risk, minimal handle the ball plan. Ok turnovers might cost you going down the middle but we had no hope trying to guide the ball the long way with more possessions needed.
 

Re: Carlton vs Brisbane Practice Match

Reply #193 –
Alan Jeans was asked long ago the secret to his success as a coach. He replied, "Cattle". L Matthews said the same thing.

IMHO our troubles started in the mid 90s and weren't properly addressed until very recent years. Salary cap cheating/penalties didn't help.

Pagan was handed a poison chalice, had a very ordinary list and was clearly the wrong bloke for that diabolical situation. Ratts had a half decent list 2009-2011, resting on the shoulders of C. Judd. BB was handed a list rebuild/kids/GWS rejects/some trade shockers/duds, and did an amazing job -- along with the marketing dept -- to hold the place together for 2 years with very little in the way of 'cattle'. But he couldn't transition from the coaching style appropriate to the initial rebuild. Too deeply mired in a defensive game plan that focussed on avoiding a hiding. But he miraculously kept spirits high... until late in year 3 and then year 4 when the wins had to start coming.

And I'm sure that DT is fully aware that his success is also tied to 'cattle.' DT has inherited some strong foundations and loads of potential. But I'm not as bullish as some re the quality of our list as a potential finalist. Failing to get at one or two of Mitchell, Smith, Rockliff, Saad, Scully, Coniglio, Shiel (all blokes we were linked to - made a play for) was a deeply concerning result. DT has a better list than BB did and more stability which affords him the ability to be more attacking. But, ultimately, it'll come down to the cattle... again.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Carlton vs Brisbane Practice Match

Reply #194 –
Malthouse may have been a good coach, but he was cooked and only took the job with us to give the finger to Eddie.   Started off by disenfranchising the players.  For a supposed supercoach that's straight out stupid.   I'm not saying the list was good,  but if you lose them before you start they are never going to perform
DrE is no more... you ok with that harmonica man?