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Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2327 –
Quote from: LP – on
How many cases of blood clots have Ireland had?

Not sure you would have to ask the experts who have suspended the vaccine over there.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2328 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Not sure you would have to ask the experts who have suspended the vaccine over there.
The officials said it was precautionary based on the Norway reports, they might not have any like Denmark which apparently suspended the vaccine first based on Norway's reports despite not having any cases of it's own!

It doesn't make sense, other countries have issued millions and millions of doses, if there was even a 1.0%, 0.1% or even 0.01% chance of this being correct there would be hundreds or thousands of cases, you can't defeat the math.

I think the absence of those cases isn't a sign of a super conspiracy, it's a sign of political, media or social media meddling.

I would have thought that Israel would be right onto this, they are at about 130% vaccination rate, that is all the population has received one jab and about 1/3rd of it a second. Although not all are AstraZeneca, and they started with Pfizer as it was available first. Israel published some interesting data a few weeks back, based on insurance claim data they were able to show no increase in claims as a result of the vaccine rollout, and a reduction in COVID-19 claims. But the media ignored that, it must be a conspiracy to keep it quiet.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2329 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
South Africa have actually scrapped the Astrazeneca in favour of the Johnson/Johnson single dose, it failed vs their own Sth African strain. Its the cheap, easy to store vaccine and thats why its popular with ScottyM......

I’m not sure that I would like to see public health decisions based on what’s happening in South Africa.  The study that found poor efficacy of the Astrazeneca vaccine looked at 1,000 31 year old men and it hasn’t been published or peer reviewed.

Of considerable concern is the SA Auditor-General’s report that found the SA COVID-19 related procurement is marred by opacity, corruption and mismanagement on a wide scale.

Meanwhile, “A careful review of all available safety data of more than 17 million people vaccinated in the European Union and UK with COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca has shown no evidence of an increased risk of pulmonary embolism, deep vein thrombosis or thrombocytopenia, in any defined age group, gender, batch or in any particular country.”

Ireland has temporarily suspended use of AstraZeneca’s vaccine “out of an abundance of caution”.  There’s nothing wrong with an abundance of caution except when it flies in the face of the evidence and has the potential to place folk at greater risk.  Fortunately, apart from the need to get our economy back to near normal, we don’t have the same urgency and can afford to be cautious.  However, our Therapeutic Goods Administration has received no reports of blood clots following use of the AstraZeneca vaccine in Australia. The TGA states that “extensive international experience does not indicate an increased risk of blood clots associated with the vaccine. Blood clots can occur naturally and are not uncommon.”
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2330 –
Guys you are peddling one assertion ahead of another.

The assertion that we are being told the truth about this vaccine and its side effects is likely the biggest fallousy we are being told about.

The worst still is that in lieu of other evidence countries with more severe covid issues than our own are pulling the same vaccine we are rolling out and for better or worse we currently don't have a virus to fight.

common sense states we shouldn't be using this vaccine irrespective of the assertion that its safe or are problem because even if it does the job they state it will, there is still every chance there are future unforseen consequences that can't be quantified right now and evidence is showing its borderline effective and the wrong mutation will render it useless anyway.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2331 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
common sense states we shouldn't be using this vaccine irrespective of the assertion that its safe or are problem because even if it does the job they state it will, there is still every chance there are future unforseen consequences that can't be quantified right now and evidence is showing its borderline effective and the wrong mutation will render it useless anyway.
Compared to all other vaccines not just COVID-19 vaccines, the COVID-19 vaccines are very safe. Safer than MMR, safer than Tetanus and safer than HPV. The rate of vaccination is extraordinary, and it's hard to ignore the stats. Until another like J&J  or Novavax reach vaccination counts in the tens of million authorities won't be able to make an equivalent comment, and we do not know about Pfizer because they aren't publishing the numbers which cannot be zero or that really stinks of something rotten.

I know the Global Health Initiative in partnership with Google is trying hard to open up all this data, if it does we will all get to read the standardised statistics.

All this has risen out of four diverse cases of clotting, not even the same clotting, it's ironic to think the dodginess only goes one way as @DJC rightly points out. Skip the opportunity to get ahead of the next wave, which is coming whether you like it or not, and you won't be worrying about the effects of the vaccine! I would have thought someone who works in a future potentially over-run hospital would be sensitive to that, the fact our hospitals aren't / haven't been over-run yet is the reason why we have such a good outcome!

Once Merck and GSK got involved, two companies that originally refused to take part because there was "nothing in it" from them, the waters have now been muddied. Is that coincidence? All of a sudden there is big dollars and it's worth the effort. Is this because they thought mRNA vaccines might not work, and they placed the wrong bet? Now they want to deal themselves back in!

There must have been quite a lot of ar5e kicking going on at Merck and GSK, they've let Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca get a $Trillion head start!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2332 –
This reminds me of the video of Trump fans in different states chanting "Count the votes" or "Stop the votes" depending on if he was winning or not.

LP you keep talking about politics, authorities put people who died from all sorts of conditions down as covid despite knowing that's not what killed them and now they want to make excuses for people who have medical issues after receiving the vaccine.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2333 –
Quote from: LP – on
Compared to all other vaccines not just COVID-19 vaccines, the COVID-19 vaccines are very safe. Safer than MMR, safer than Tetanus and safer than HPV. The rate of vaccination is extraordinary, and it's hard to ignore the stats. Until another like J&J  or Novavax reach vaccination counts in the tens of million authorities won't be able to make an equivalent comment, and we do not know about Pfizer because they aren't publishing the numbers which cannot be zero or that really stinks of something rotten.

I know the Global Health Initiative in partnership with Google is trying hard to open up all this data, if it does we will all get to read the standardised statistics.

All this has risen out of four diverse cases of clotting, not even the same clotting, it's ironic to think the dodginess only goes one way as @DJC rightly points out. Skip the opportunity to get ahead of the next wave, which is coming whether you like it or not, and you won't be worrying about the effects of the vaccine! I would have thought someone who works in a future potentially over-run hospital would be sensitive to that, the fact our hospitals aren't / haven't been over-run yet is the reason why we have such a good outcome!

Once Merck and GSK got involved, two companies that originally refused to take part because there was "nothing in it" from them, the waters have now been muddied. Is that coincidence? All of a sudden there is big dollars and it's worth the effort. Is this because they thought mRNA vaccines might not work, and they placed the wrong bet? Now they want to deal themselves back in!

There must have been quite a lot of ar5e kicking going on at Merck and GSK, they've let Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca get a $Trillion head start!

That is shill 101 stuff LP. I hope to God you haven't got a Bill Gates poster on your bedroom wall.

Neither you, nor ANYONE for that matter, can empirically support a proposition that these vaccines are "very safe".

No one knows - there hasn't been time.

There are plenty of very eminent scientists who staunchly disagree with you and your 'friends'. That is a fact.

You do realise they are only able to be used due to EUAs which, I understand, can be withdrawn at any stage?

And that they remain in phase 3 testing?
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2334 –
As i spoke about with @Thryleon before this stuff started.

I am very pro-vaccination, but i will not be at the head of the line for this vaccine. I'll wait until the data comes in on how effective ti really is, and what the side effects are.

Better to wait for update 2.0 then be the first sucker to try a new product IMO.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2335 –
Quote from: flyboy77 – on
No one knows - there hasn't been time.
All the vaccines are remaining in Phase 3, it is more a statement about the dud mentality of the law makers who never envisaged trials on such a large scale.

The shear number of vaccinations is very strong empirical data, that more than makes up for the shorter test regime. Usually Phase 3 is a perhaps 100,000 to 300,000 people over months or years. 320M over 3 months has that well and truly covered. It's the EUAs that permit that acceleration, because nobody writing the rules ever expected such huge trial data. I won't be surprised to find it never goes back to the bad old ways, based on laws from half a century ago!

Longitudinal studies can be compressed in time by increased participant numbers.

I realise Joe Average doesn't get the 320M over 3 months is the same as 80M over a year or 20M over four years, nor do they get Monte Carlo simulations or other analysis techniques.

Unfortunately for the sceptics, and fortunately for the rest of the world, the truth of the situation is exposed by the huge numbers already safely and effectively vaccinated, and it is very very real not just an allegation!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2336 –
@LP ....
Numbers are one thing, but not all people are the same.

So just like nothing but a sample of 31yo males cannot be used accurately to predict how it will work amongst other members of the population, neither can numbers that exclude whole continents.

We are a smart monkey who has mastered many things.
100 years ago we could say the same, at the time, but how many things did we know back then that are just plain wrong nowadays. We hadn't even discovered blood types then.

What is it today that we don't know?
What is it that 100 years from now that we are doing that will seem like pure nonsense?

I'm all for science, but even science knows we don't know a hell of a lot.

So as good as all this appears to be....we simply do not really know.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2337 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Guys you are peddling one assertion ahead of another.

The assertion that we are being told the truth about this vaccine and its side effects is likely the biggest fallousy we are being told about.

The worst still is that in lieu of other evidence countries with more severe covid issues than our own are pulling the same vaccine we are rolling out and for better or worse we currently don't have a virus to fight.

common sense states we shouldn't be using this vaccine irrespective of the assertion that its safe or are problem because even if it does the job they state it will, there is still every chance there are future unforseen consequences that can't be quantified right now and evidence is showing its borderline effective and the wrong mutation will render it useless anyway.
That is not technically correct. A coronavirus will always be a coronavirus, the vaccines issued now as already tested will always be effective to some degree.

Unfortunately, the media generalise the concept of immunity and misrepresent what the percentage effectiveness means. All the current vaccines are 100% effective at staving off the severe effects of COVID-19. As yet there are no numbers for any regarding preventing transmission, and it is interesting to see people boosting Pfizer ahead of AstraZeneca given the Pfizer trials data remains unreleased while the AstraZeneca data is public release.

if I were suspicious of anything, it would be the 98% effectiveness claimed by Pfizer, yet it's lauded by the media not questioned, despite there being insufficient data or time to know about the Pfizer vaccines it's ability to break transmission.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2338 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
I'm all for science, but even science knows we don't know a hell of a lot.

So as good as all this appears to be....we simply do not really know.
Yet numpties want to accept the 1000 x 31 year old trial as proof something is NBG with one vaccine, but rail against the evidence from a good portion of 320M vaccinations! That is the definition of cherry-picking.

The experts know far more than the people willing to post spurious commentary here, commentary that feeds fear and inhibits uptake of something that might save someone's life, commentary that has a real world effect.

Words kill, stupid words even more so, .................... see Donald Trump or QAnon!

Unfortunately or fortunately, while the naysayers are free to cloud the commentary I'm free to clarify it.

Humans are awful at understanding risk @kruddler, common sense is useless. For example give 320M people a raw carrot and many will choke with some dying, yet raw carrot is a healthy lunch for kids everywhere! ;) The USA has about 320M people, just by chance similar to the numbers vaccinated, in the USA about 12,000 kids choke on fresh fruit or veg requiring hospitalisation each year, some die. The number one choking fruit or veg is carrots, should we ban carrots and withdraw them from food stores and supermarkets. Should carrot farmers be charged with murder? In years gone by excess carrots, which store and transport very well, were shipped by wealthy countries to Africa to improve health and reduce some related dietary deficiencies that caused diseases, ........... those heartless bastards, how many kids choked!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2339 –
Numpties? Joe average?

Who do you think you are?
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!