CV and mad panic behaviour

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Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #3180 – June 14, 2021, 02:01:36 pm

Quote from: kruddler – on June 14, 2021, 01:18:04 pm

You jumped into the debate, touted some philosophical nonsense and then agreed with what i was saying citing you didn't even know what was being debated.

That's partially correct, but it's not nonsense, I used a comment in your post to introduce and clarify a related subject, I didn't need to know what you and the others were debating.

The misuse of the term logic is no different to the common misuse of the term theory.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #3181 – June 14, 2021, 02:03:20 pm

Here’s a way to open up the way for businesses, letting the free market regulate things rather than government. All businesses that open for business must have Public Liability (Covid Cover); failure to have it or trading in such a way that the cover is invalidated constitutes a criminal offence and persons involved in managing companies committing those offences are personally liable for any damages awarded by a court.

That would allow business people to roll the dice but they’d have to foot the bill if they crap out. Leave it to the Insurance companies to dictate standards various types of businesses should respect. And with genomic testing and contact tracing, it shouldn’t be too hard for personal injury law firms to hold reckless operators responsible via class actions.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #3182 – June 14, 2021, 02:09:58 pm

Quote from: Mav – on June 14, 2021, 02:03:20 pm

That would allow business people to roll the dice but they’d have to foot the bill if they crap out.

I suppose you could argue most of the dissenters wouldn't bother, if they became liable they wouldn't have any funds or assets to cover the damages of any claim, they'd use legal aid to fight the case ( the public pays ), if they were fined they wouldn't pay so the sheriff / courts would pursue them ( so the public pays again ), if they go to jail the public pays for that as well.

So it would probably become a tax on the compliant leaving them at the mercy of the non-compliant.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #3183 – June 14, 2021, 02:10:16 pm

Minor changes to established mores, laws etc. are not to be compared to absolutes. No Australian politician to my knowledge has ever advocated wholesale removal of cars from the streets and they never will, although there are benefits to doing so, and they would be obvious. What you do see is a nip and tuck approach, such as small sections of the CBD where cars are not permitted (many cities have had this for ages), reduced speed around school zones etc.

Histrionics don't help anyone. You can quibble about whether the speed limit should be 40, 38, 21 kmh, but you can't quibble about the fact that they make cities safer.

I'm sure citizens of many cities around the world are enjoying the cleaner air that comes from being forced to work form home, another unintended benefit of covid control measures.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #3184 – June 14, 2021, 02:29:24 pm

I think much of this tangential debate is about the psychology of humans, those who think that things must be returned to 'normal', versus those who think things can and must change forever.

Pretty much all of the big issues, equality, racism, climate change, etc., etc.. all fall in the same broad category, most of the dissent is really fighting change.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #3185 – June 14, 2021, 02:38:11 pm

Quote from: PaulP – on June 14, 2021, 02:10:16 pm

Minor changes to established mores, laws etc. are not to be compared to absolutes. No Australian politician to my knowledge has ever advocated wholesale removal of cars from the streets and they never will, although there are benefits to doing so, and they would be obvious. What you do see is a nip and tuck approach, such as small sections of the CBD where cars are not permitted (many cities have had this for ages), reduced speed around school zones etc.

Histrionics don't help anyone. You can quibble about whether the speed limit should be 40, 38, 21 kmh, but you can't quibble about the fact that they make cities safer.

I'm sure citizens of many cities around the world are enjoying the cleaner air that comes from being forced to work form home, another unintended benefit of covid control measures.

lol....way to miss the point.

Let me explain because i must be making my point too subtley.

Lockdown = good because less people die from covid ......is 1 point of view.
Lockdown = bad because more people die from suicide, are financially ruined etc etc from the results of lockdowns.

IMO, looking at lockdown = good because less people die from covid is very much oversimplifying things.
Look at the ripple effect that has on the people, the businesses, the city and the country that has occurred from these lockdowns. Even compare that with other states and their lockdowns.
It is not SIMPLY about how many people are NOT dying from COVID because of lockdowns.

Now, the analogy was this. If it is SIMPLY about deaths directly from Covid and nothing else matters, then, again, that is an oversimplified view.
Looking at that view in another scenario...
Speed limits are dropped to save lives. It works, no arguments. If we drop it by more....it will save more lives. If we ban cars altogether, it will reduce lives lost from car accidents to zero. So, if its just about death toll, ban cars. However, there is a reason we don't.....its just not practical.
Someone, somewhere said that 40 zones are a comfortable compromise between saving lives and being practical. If you asked someone else, they probably would've come up with a different 'magic number' other than 40, lets say 50. A third person more cautious person may have yet another number, say 30. Its all based on a persons point of view on what they are trying to achieve and how practical (or not) that arbitrary number is.
Some people, say the '50' guy, may take into account the financial aspect of slowing cars down too much as not being practical.
The '30' guy points to saving more lives.....but doesn't take into account that people would need to be on the roads for longer (they can't go as fast) which means more cars on the road at once, and more traffic as a result. Also be away from home and family for longer.
Unintended consequences directly related to the 'choice' of speed and what they were trying to achieve (lower deaths from cars) but not realising that it meant more time away from home which could lead to more stress etc etc.

So back to lockdowns....someone somewhere made a judgement on when and for how long we should go into lockdowns. Clearly that view is different to those of the other states. Victoria has been in more lockdowns that everyone else combined i believe...and by a fair margin IIRC.
So.....is it not possible that the people who are deciding on lockdowns have gone overly cautious and are putting people under more stress than is really required for the sake of minimal improvement in deaths from covid....and at the same time causing more deaths from unintended consequences of these lockdowns?

In short, focussing on deaths from covid at the expense of everything else is overly simplistic and flat out wrong IMO.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #3186 – June 14, 2021, 03:35:23 pm

For every person that dies of COVID-19, there are many others that will suffer from the growing list of related long term effects, at great cost to the community.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #3187 – June 14, 2021, 04:03:49 pm

Quote from: kruddler – on June 14, 2021, 02:38:11 pm

In short, focussing on deaths from covid at the expense of everything else is overly simplistic and flat out wrong IMO.

It's pretty b00dy stupid to call for fewer cars on the road and then rely on public transport that runs on electricity which requires the burning of coal and you demolish power stations.

Addle brained decisions versus obvious consequences.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #3188 – June 14, 2021, 08:51:56 pm

Victoria has had way more deaths than other States. More deaths/infections means tougher measures to arrest exponential spread.

Love the way some are reinventing the wheel and expecting a standing ovation. The Herald Sun and SkyNews made it their mission to take down Daniel Andrews. Remember the Dictator Dan sledges? And of course the Liberal leader tried to take the ball and run with it. Lockdowns are imprisoning the innocent! Think of the kids and mental health! Masks are an infringement of civil liberties! The measures imposed are excessive and we can manage with much less interference from Govt! The cure can’t be worse than the disease!

They were all flummoxed by how little their joint campaign achieved. They were astonished by how popular “Dictator Dan” remained. The Herald Sun dialled back the rhetoric.

The reason the attack failed was that the overwhelming majority realise Covid is a lethal pandemic and it requires a vigorous response. That hasn’t changed.

We’re told other States have a more relaxed or sensible attitude towards controlling Covid. And yet our northern neighbours reacted with alarm when a handful of Victorians crossed their borders. And we know West Australia has been to the High Court to retain its border lockdown.

I’m thinking politicians are the last people on Earth who will impose more repressive restrictions on the public than are necessary. I’d imagine Labor MPs are sick and tired of being approached by hotel lobbyists and gym owners. I’m sure the Government has heard from mental health professionals and business people. The idea that some keyboard warriors have seen something that has been missed in setting policy is laughable. And I’d imagine they actually have more data to guide decision-making than the bald assertions made in this thread.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #3189 – June 14, 2021, 10:04:54 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/dec/21/daniel-andrews-apologises-for-botched-hotel-quarantine-program-in-victoria

No its not Dans fault, he fecked up quarantine, didnt know who authorized the private security, and cut funding to the infectious disease tracing area.
Head of the enquiry, retired Judge Jennifer Coate found Andrews and the former health minister, Jenny Mikakos, had played no part in the decision to use private security???, and while the police minister, Lisa Neville, was aware of the proposal, the report found she was not responsible. The jobs minister, Martin Pakula, “appears not to have been told” until after private security was engaged.
So millions got paid to that muppet security firm and no one knew anything about it?...thats re-assuring...

He decided he needed a sacrificial lamb to appease the restless natives so he threw Jenny Mikakos under the CoVid bus to save his reputation......of course they both were doing their Sgt Schultz impersonation(I know nothing) but she had to take one for the team as far as Dan was concerned and save the leader.
The outbreaks of Covid-19 in two quarantine hotels – the Rydges on Swanston (now known as the Park Hotel) and the Stamford Plaza – accounted for more than 20,000 cases of Covid-19 and more than 800 deaths.
How lucky Dan is to have such a lame and impotent opposition led by a faceless leader....he might do a Bradbury and we might have to suffer another three years of his mismanagement....

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #3190 – June 14, 2021, 10:20:39 pm

We're pretty stupid in Victoria sometimes @ElwoodBlues1 ...

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #3191 – June 14, 2021, 11:46:26 pm

What? There were 20,000 cases in quarantine hotels? Wait a minute ... there must have been a few cases of infected people leaving those hotels and then it ripped through the community. You’d almost say it was highly infectious and lockdowns were required to stop the spread. But maybe that was too harsh and we should have considered suicidality and the loss of businesses. Like, how bad could it have ended up?

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #3192 – June 15, 2021, 12:47:32 am

You’d have thought those who are concerned about the impact of lockdowns would concentrate on the reports that deaths from heart attacks and diabetes have increased in the wake of Covid. Among the possible causes are failing to seek or continue medical treatment for such serious conditions, lack of exercise while staying home, adopting unhealthy habits, change of lifestyle including loss of work, and stress. These aren’t exclusive to lockdowns of course as they also apply to those who have tried to minimise their risk of exposure when that wasn’t mandated and to those who have been anxious about Covid generally. It’ll be interesting to see where the studies take us.

The data from overseas is perhaps less relevant than Australian data. In particular, the US is probably a poor comparison. The health system over there is heavily reliant on health insurance. The uninsured often defer seeking medical treatment for fear of being bankrupted after doing so (and the uninsured have a lower life expectancy as a result). Unfortunately, many Americans have relied upon insurance coverage provided by their employers. Presumably, a lot of Americans lost their health insurance along with their jobs when the pandemic hit.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #3193 – June 15, 2021, 07:25:14 am

Quote from: Mav – on June 15, 2021, 12:47:32 am

You’d have thought those who are concerned about the impact of lockdowns would concentrate on the reports that deaths from heart attacks and diabetes have increased in the wake of Covid. Among the possible causes are failing to seek or continue medical treatment for such serious conditions, lack of exercise while staying home, adopting unhealthy habits, change of lifestyle including loss of work, and stress. These aren’t exclusive to lockdowns of course as they also apply to those who have tried to minimise their risk of exposure when that wasn’t mandated and to those who have been anxious about Covid generally. It’ll be interesting to see where the studies take us.

The data from overseas is perhaps less relevant than Australian data. In particular, the US is probably a poor comparison. The health system over there is heavily reliant on health insurance. The uninsured often defer seeking medical treatment for fear of being bankrupted after doing so (and the uninsured have a lower life expectancy as a result). Unfortunately, many Americans have relied upon insurance coverage provided by their employers. Presumably, a lot of Americans lost their health insurance along with their jobs when the pandemic hit.

Could argue those deaths are exacerbated by lockdowns and the health services putting a lot of their surgeries on hold, people being stressed about how they are going to make ends meet. Home schooling kids. Kids are definitely impacted in ways that won't show for years.

Meanwhile, your arguments are too simplistic.

1.5 years later this doesn't look like a pandemic to me but a massive over reaction.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #3194 – June 15, 2021, 08:12:10 am

Quote from: Thryleon – on June 15, 2021, 07:25:14 am

Could argue those deaths are exacerbated by lockdowns and the health services putting a lot of their surgeries on hold, people being stressed about how they are going to make ends meet. Home schooling kids. Kids are definitely impacted in ways that won't show for years.

Meanwhile, your arguments are too simplistic.

1.5 years later this doesn't look like a pandemic to me but a massive over reaction.

Over reaction? Not really, I think we have seen it slaughter other countries so control is important. Have we taken it to the extreme? Possibly here in Victoria but there is no way they were going to allow a repeat of the first Quarantine outbreak to occur so I can understand the caution. Perhaps they need to devise a mechanism to control specific out breaks (ie localised lockdowns or the like) although we can see with this latest one how quickly it spreads from one suburb to another and another etc.