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Topic: The rise.... and RISE of Marc Pittonet (Read 94687 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #570 –
Oh Dear! ::)

I think I've worked out what's wrong, somebody hit the wrong key on the keyboard, instead of HtA it should have been GtA, ( Guess to Advantage ), I suppose G & H are right besides each other!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #571 –
Quote from: LP – on
Oh Dear! ::)

I think I've worked out what's wrong, somebody hit the wrong key on the keyboard, instead of HtA it should have been GtA, ( Guess to Advantage ), I suppose G & H are right besides each other!

You complain about how HTA is subjective stat and sight an example as to why.
I show that your example is NOT valid and use Champion Datas own information as to why.
You, rather than admit you are wrong, come back with something like the above in an attempt to somehow mask the fact that your issues are your understanding, rather than the reality of it.

If you want to debate facts, do it.
If you want to talk nonsense, take it to bigfooty where you'll fit right in.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #572 –
If you can't perceive that the time and space for the recipient of the tap is dependant on their own actions and the actions of their opponents and not the ruckmen, and by consequence the HtA Ruck is dependant on those same receivers actions, I can't help you and I doubt anybody can!

As a measure of the ruck HtA is a joke stat, almost offensive to ruckmen.

If HtA has any utility at all it is as a measure of how well the Midfield work together as a unit when they are winning tactically, it is still totally dependant on opposition tactics because tagging and scragging removes all the time and space by definition, no matter what the ruckmen does and all that happens regardless of where, when or how they well they tap!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #573 –
Quote from: LP – on
If you can't perceive that the time and space for the recipient of the tap is dependant on their own actions and the actions of their opponents and not the ruckmen, and by consequence the HtA Ruck is dependant on those same receivers actions, I can't help you and I doubt anybody can!

As a measure of the ruck HtA is a joke stat, almost offensive to ruckmen.

If HtA has any utility at all it is as a measure of how well the Midfield work together as a unit when they are winning tactically, it is still totally dependant on opposition tactics because tagging and scragging removes all the time and space by definition, no matter what the ruckmen does and all that happens regardless of where, when or how they well they tap!

Blah blah blah. You've said all this....repeatedly.

Now lets say you are correct. (Although  you are very much overcomplicating things, and oversimplyfying things all at once)
But....if the HTA stat is 100% dependant, or even 50% dependent on the midfield and the opposition tactics. Then how do you explain the difference in stats from our rucks relative to each other?
That is....
Why does Pittonet always get more than TDK, by a long way (except for games he gets injured) whether he rucks solo, or in tandem regardless of who is is rucking with, and how much rucking he does.
TDK gets the same RC-HTA% whether they ruck solo or in tandem. So there is no difference in which midfield they are coming up against, or rucking too. The only variable is the actual rucks ability.
Same with Jack vs Young. Jack had 6 HTA, Young had 1. Young was in 61 RCs, Jack was in 36.
Same teammates, same opposition. Only variable is the rucks ability.

You can complain about the broader HTA stat and how it relates vs other rucks and other mids....and while you drastically overstate its importance (large enough sample size shows this) there is a tiny nugget of truth to it. However, when comparing apples with apples, be that our own team/players relative to eachother, that nugget of truth is not appplicable.
Once you do that, you see that the relative difference between apples and apples, you can see by extension that apples compared to oranges actually holds true as well.

In summary.
If you are correct. The only reason the stats continue to stack up the way they do is IF our midfield tries harder when Pittonet is in the ruck vs any other ruck. Which of course is ludicrous, but if its true....then it doesn't even matter about the HTA stat, Pittonet improves the side just being there, which ultimately yields the same result statwise or otherwise.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #574 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Blah blah blah. You've said all this....repeatedly.

Now lets say you are correct. (Although  you are very much overcomplicating things, and oversimplyfying things all at once)
But....if the HTA stat is 100% dependant, or even 50% dependent on the midfield and the opposition tactics. Then how do you explain the difference in stats from our rucks relative to each other?
That is....
Why does Pittonet always get more than TDK, by a long way (except for games he gets injured) whether he rucks solo, or in tandem regardless of who is is rucking with, and how much rucking he does.
TDK gets the same RC-HTA% whether they ruck solo or in tandem. So there is no difference in which midfield they are coming up against, or rucking too. The only variable is the actual rucks ability.
Same with Jack vs Young. Jack had 6 HTA, Young had 1. Young was in 61 RCs, Jack was in 36.
Same teammates, same opposition. Only variable is the rucks ability.

You can complain about the broader HTA stat and how it relates vs other rucks and other mids....and while you drastically overstate its importance (large enough sample size shows this) there is a tiny nugget of truth to it. However, when comparing apples with apples, be that our own team/players relative to eachother, that nugget of truth is not appplicable.
Once you do that, you see that the relative difference between apples and apples, you can see by extension that apples compared to oranges actually holds true as well.

In summary.
If you are correct. The only reason the stats continue to stack up the way they do is IF our midfield tries harder when Pittonet is in the ruck vs any other ruck. Which of course is ludicrous, but if its true....then it doesn't even matter about the HTA stat, Pittonet improves the side just being there, which ultimately yields the same result statwise or otherwise.
Would it possibly be more how the midfield sets up for different Ruckman.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #575 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Would it possibly be more how the midfield sets up for different Rickman.

Do you think they are setting up incorrectly ?
Let’s go BIG !

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #576 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Would it possibly be more how the midfield sets up for different Rickman.

It might be, but even if thats the case. Does it matter?

If our midfield either...
a) Set up differently
b) Try harder
c) Get better hitouts
...From one ruckman vs the other on a consistent basis, which one of those 3 it is, is pretty irrelevant in the scheme of things

Personally i think its pretty clear. My eyes told me Pittonet was a very good tap ruckmen long before i looked at the stats.
LP disagrees about the stats and how accurate they are (which is easier than admitting he is wrong).

Ultimately, its a black box scenario.
Pittonet is the input into this 'black box of mystery in which some magic happens and its up for debate as to why' and on the other side of this black box is the output that we get.
If we change TDK to be the input, the output changes too.
Same with Jack and same with Young.
Now, we don't really need to know what is happening inside that black box because all we really care about is the output.
The output of Pittonet in the ruck >> TDK > Jack >> Young.

Whichever way you slice it, whichever line of thinking you want to use to explain what happens in that black box it doesn't matter. Output are measurable.

That being said, its 95% clear that the HTA stat is the reason for it. That stat is not perfect, but its very much consistent for each ruck when accounting for variables over a long period of time.


Since bringing this up i've heard....
1. Its because TDK/Jack have a 2nd string midfield they are rucking too.
2. You need to take into account how many times they hit it directly to the opposition.
3. Its because its our midfield not the ruck

I've clearly disproven all of them based on stats and changeable conditions (be that rucking solo vs tandem and opposition etc) Its always consistent.

Yet....there is always a reason why its NOT the way i say it is.
Perhaps you need to look at whats staring you in the face. Perhaps it IS the way i say it is.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #577 –
Quote from: northernblue – on
Do you think they are setting up incorrectly ?
That degrades the debate into one of stoppages only, the real issue is all the other stuff around the ground, the scoring involvements, being part of the chain of play, controlling momentum, 1%ers, being a threat in F50, being an obstacle in D50, etc., etc..

That's the real reason one ruck with a supporting traffic cone doesn't work for us, and for that matter it doesn't work for anybody, the price paid when the traffic cone is in place is just too high! We see it too often in the momentum of play, you might get away with it occasionally, when the opposition have a weakness, but much of the time the teams winning the flags are the teams that have the strong combinations.

Before the naysayers come in a quote Nthmond to the debate, that happened under different rules, 3rd man up, holding the ball, it's over for that option and so it should be, under the current rules even Nthmond see the need to assist Nankervis and the folly of rucking Lynch! Nthmond damage Lynch's game impact by rucking him, so they bring in newbies to 2nd ruck. By comparison at least we don't do that, we take blokes who were otherwise in poor form and struggling and offering them the futility of rucking against a Nankervis as a lifeline, it's like do this you lose your head!


The dragon slayer is a romantic myth not reality!

The argument to ruck Pitto solo with a crap support option isn't setting a trend, it's clinging to a redundancy!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #578 –
Quote from: LP – on
That degrades the debate into one of stoppages only, the real issue is all the other stuff around the ground, the scoring involvements, being part of the chain of play, controlling momentum, 1%ers, being a threat in F50, being an obstacle in D50, etc., etc..

That's the real reason one ruck with a supporting traffic cone doesn't work for us, and for that matter it doesn't work for anybody, the price paid when the traffic cone is in place is just too high! We see it too often in the momentum of play, you might get away with it occasionally, when the opposition have a weakness, but much of the time the teams winning the flags are the teams that have the strong combinations.

Before the naysayers come in a quote Nthmond to the debate, that happened under different rules, 3rd man up, holding the ball, it's over for that option and so it should be, under the current rules even Nthmond see the need to assist Nankervis and the folly of rucking Lynch!

The argument to ruck Pitto solo with a crap support option isn't setting a trend, it's clinging to a redundancy!

The problem with trying to compare non-rucking duties of a ruckmen is you are not comparing apples with apples anymore.
How long does a ruck spend forward, back or in the ruck.
How much TOG does each ruck have overall on top of that.

The ruck stat is a pure stat because you can count exactly how many times they were in a ruck contest.

Anything else is guesswork.

But...playing that game. The TDK boosters point out his around the ground work is far superior.
10 possessions vs 11 possessions. The latter has 8% TOG more by comparison.....and is TDK.

But more specifically...
Score involvements? Both are deemed below average at 3.7 a game.
Score launches Pittonet is elite at 3.1 (maybe because of his high HTA ratio ;)) TDK is 'below average' with 1.6
1%ers? Pit 2.8, TDK 3.1 both are 'average'.

So where is this benefit?

Only thing TDK is deemed 'elite' (top 10% of rucks)
is Marks on a lead. In which he takes 0.6 a game....in part because he has played as key forward at times.
He is also 'above average' in tackles inside 50, at 0.6.

But, lets see how we go around the ground with Jack as the 2nd ruck.
He averages 1.2 marks on lead (double TDK)
He is 0.5 tackles inside 50 (down 0.1)

Jack also averages more marks, kicks, disposal efficiency is higher, tackles

Despite attending 1/4 of the ruck contests TDK does, jack only averages slightly less in clearance stats
Stoppages 1.2 vs 1.6
Centre 0.3 vs 1.0
TOTAL 1.5 vs 2.6......again, with only 1/4 of the opportunities by comparison. Normalise that out and he is double effective.

So lets bring this debate full circle to the point where Jack performs much better in the ruck than people give him credit for, and outperforms TDK around the ground.

Meaning....TDK is outperformed as a ruck and outperformed as a backup ruck/forward....and is a luxury we can do without.
Especially since his being there is limited our run, chase, tackling and pressuring (all backed up by stats) as well as the areas highlighted already.

So if TDK cannot perform to Pittonets standard in the ruck
and
Cannot perform to Jacks standard around the ground.....and arguably does not outperform Jack in the ruck either.

Then why are we playing him? Because we HOPE he gets better??


Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #579 –
Champion data did their All Australian team. Grundy is the ruckman.

Charlie is Full Forward and Saad made the bench.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #580 –
Quote from: northernblue – on
Do you think they are setting up incorrectly ?

Not incorrectly, but I imagine the 'focus' of the mid-fielders would be different if Pittonet was rucking as opposed to Jack.
With Pittonet there would be the expectation of a win or break even on the actual tap.
With Jack the expectation would be of a loss or break even on the tap,  but more likely a loss.

So if Pittonet is rucking they would be looking to where the tap would be directed.
The eyes of the midfield would be on Pittonet.

With Jack rucking it would be to where the oppostition ruckman would direct it,
where the opposition mid-fielders were, and how to combat that first possession.

That's probably one area where rucking Jack is actually a plus because he can quickly transition into an extra-midfielder in a defensive or attacking role.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #581 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
The problem with trying to compare non-rucking duties of a ruckmen is you are not comparing apples with apples anymore.
How long does a ruck spend forward, back or in the ruck.
How much TOG does each ruck have overall on top of that.
That's exactly the point, rucks that tap alone are next to useless in the ever changing landscape of a game, because the drawback is what they are not involved in.

The game has gone beyond the abilities of a pure solo stoppage ruck, even The Aints with Ross Lyon's negative emphasis now concede that which is why they are hunting for a 2nd ruck.

Of course there will always be games that are exceptions, but nobody should be stupid enough to put all their eggs in one basket 24x7!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #582 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
So if TDK cannot perform to Pittonets standard in the ruck
and
Cannot perform to Jacks standard around the ground.....and arguably does not outperform Jack in the ruck either.

Then why are we playing him? Because we HOPE he gets better??
You keep making he same mistake, it's your narrow definition of performing in the ruck that is your folly, when you make those mistakes it exposes your perceptions which appear to contradict what you write. In philosophy they would assert you lack referentially integrity.

As for TDK's best games, they already match SoJ, but TDK is not yet consistent, given a similar number of games TDK is already on a trajectory that puts him way beyond the capabilities of SoJ, there is no comparison long term.

We've just signed Pitto for four years, he's the foundation, TDK or another ultra mobile ruck like him is the complimentary machinery that sits on it, SoJ or Young are not!

There is another very simple question that can be posed to determine if we have a null hypothesis, head to head in a combative scenario, if we become like the Romans and set the three of them a fight to the death, survival of the fittest, last man of earth, overhead, in mobility, pace, agility, potential and ruck work, do Young and SoJ have TDK covered?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #583 –
What has TDK done to deserve a massive contract?. It's all based on hype, promise and him being prettier to watch because he is the athletic prototype tall player.
His stats are no better than a hacker like Bailey Williams from WC...
I prefer Nick Bryan from Essendon who I think is a bargain for any club wanting  a 2nd ruckman.
We would have to be crazy to be paying TDK big dollars on what he has delivered and no way would I be paying on promise alone.
Pittonet gives you competitive bang for buck and as Nankervis has shown that's good enough to be a premiership ruckman.
Clubs who pay massive money for rucks are crazy...it's an over rated position and the money should be spent on the mids who do the real hard work at the coalface.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #584 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Pittonet gives you competitive bang for buck and as Nankervis has shown that's good enough to be a premiership ruckman.
Nthmond and Nankervis is not a valid comparison, it that happened under very different game day rules, implementations and circumstances.

Actually, CheatsFC is quite a good example of where we should be heading, given they tend to ruck Phillips or another (Their version of Pitto) with Draper as the relief ruck. That's the CheatsFC version of Gawn / Jackson, not that Phillips is in the Gawn league, but Phillips is not far off being a Pitto.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"