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Topic: The rise.... and RISE of Marc Pittonet (Read 53432 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #540 –
Quote from: LP – on
People at the game saw Reeves and Meek win clear hitout after hitout, palming the ball exactly to where they wanted it for almost the 1st-1/2 of the game, with Carlton Mids brushing the Dawks aside and clearing the footy. That's why the HTA stat is bogus, because it's counting is completely dependant on what happens in the moment after the ball is tapped, it's not dependant on how skilful the ruck is.

Secondly, those of us at the game would have seen Reeves limping around just after 1/2-time, with SoJ able to jump over him for a brief period before Meek returned to ruck out the game, I'd assert it was that short period when SoJ would have earned most of his HtA.

Around that time Young was doubling up in the backline, a tactic that outside of our opponents getting an injury won't fly against Darcy and Jackson next week.

If we'd gone into today's game with two competitive rucks, in combination with the dominant Mids, we might have kicked a percentage booster.

So explain to me what you are arguing against exactly?

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #541 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
So explain to me what you are arguing against exactly?
We don't want meaningless D-Grade stats and rubbery game day solutions that work against muppets sold to us as some sort of ruck revolution, we want a strong combination and tactics that counter dynamic duo's like Gawn/Grundy or Darcy/Jackson.
"Ruck, ruck, ruck, ruck ....... Ruck, ruck, ruck, ruck"

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #542 –
Quote from: LP – on
We don't want meaningless D-Grade stats and rubbery game day solutions that work against muppets sold to us as some sort of ruck revolution, we want a strong combination and tactics that counter dynamic duo's like Gawn/Grundy or Darcy/Jackson.

You're a muppet.

Raging against the machine.
Sticking it to the man.
Doing all of the things, without any actual direction.

If you read what i wrote, i said that we got dominated in the ruck and it meant little, because the Hawks rucks were trash.

I pointing out all your protesting about 'bogus stats', spin and deflection were disproved by what occured with the stats from that game. Namely, midfield has a bearing over HTA of the rucks and '2nd string mids with 2nd string ruck theory'. Young proved both are in your head.

It also proved that you don't need a dominant ruck (or 2) when your midfield is so good at getting clearances because the HTA was not in our favour, but clearances were. So the theory that you MUST have 2 genuine rucks to compete and win clearances is also debunked.

But of course, its not about HTA, its about around the ground work. To which Jack excelled today (together with his superior ruckwork, from less opportunities) shows why he is the favoured backup ruck option by the club - not just by me.

Does that mean Jack should be #1 ruck? Of course not.
Does that mean TDK shouldn't be developed to be more useful around the ground? Of course not.
But as it stands, Jack simply offers more, despite all his physical limitations by comparison to TDK.

You said it yourself, its about output.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #543 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
You said it yourself, its about output.
Our 2023 HO average is 36, against those apparently shizen / rubbish / trash Dawks rucks we got 27, -9 on our average.

While those shizen / rubbish / trash rucks that we were up against got 61 HO, +20 on their 2023 average of 41.

I don't think they had an output problem from their rucks! ;) ;D
"Ruck, ruck, ruck, ruck ....... Ruck, ruck, ruck, ruck"

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #544 –
Quote from: LP – on
Our 2023 HO average is 36, against those apparently shizen / rubbish / trash Dawks rucks we got 27, -9 on our average.

While those shizen / rubbish / trash rucks that we were up against got 61 HO, +20 on their 2023 average of 41.

I don't think they had an output problem from their rucks! ;) ;D

1. Hitouts stat means nothing if it doesn't go to your team mate.
2. They were up against no name rucks so if they weren't +20 they should be sacked.
3. How did all those extra hitouts relate to extra clearances? Oh, they didn't. - see point 1.
4. Hitouts to advantage they combined for 12. We combined for 8. That's why they were trash.
5. They also did SFA around the ground, which you tell me is much more important that bogus hitout stats.

Now, you flip flop back and forth and keep shooting yourself in the foot.

I already said we were dominated in the ruck (ie hitouts) but the fact that had no bearing on the result shows how unimportant the hitout stat(not HTA) actually is.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #545 –
All your arguments Kruddler are actually working against your boy Pittonet who does nothing after the tap. TDK can actually play football.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #546 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
All your arguments Kruddler are actually working against your boy Pittonet who does nothing after the tap. TDK can actually play football.
Not exactly.

Hitouts are useless.
Hitouts to advantage are as good as hard ball gets. You get the advantage from a 50-50 situation.

After the tap, TDK can actually play football....and gets 1 possession for 8% extra TOG.
That must be some possession he gets if its the difference between being able to play and not play.

People get sidetracked in this debate arguing semantics which i continually disprove.

The whole point is that TDK does not offer enough around the ground, due to an inability to play a position of need in OUR team (we have Harry and Charlie) and as a result, he is a luxury we cannot afford to carry in our 22 because he takes up a spot on the bench, hurts our rotations and our ability to run, chase, tackle and pressure our opponent. As a result, a part-time ruck is sufficient for the 20% of the game (max) that Pittonet needs a rest. Jack is our best performed 'non-ruck' who can play another position. It could quite easily be Young, McGovern, Cripps, Harry or Charlie....but its not.

If Pittonet was not so dominant in HTA, he is elite, then TDK would have the spot as #1 ruck.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #547 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
All your arguments Kruddler are actually working against your boy Pittonet who does nothing after the tap. TDK can actually play football.

Agree. Pit is in same mould as Warnock. Can only contribute at ruck contests then takes up space on the ground after that.

None of us couch experts can predict what TDK will become but he is a different type to Pit and has shown signs to suggest he has a reasonable chance in the right environment to develop in the Gawn/English/Marshall/ type which is why clubs are offering overs for his signature. As much as current stats dont support the money being offered having several clubs circling tells you they may just know a tad more then us. Rucks take longer to mature and lets face it our club isn't exactly known as a leader in developing young talent and opposition clubs know that and its factored it to his perceived value. 

I hope TDK signs on but think the money will be too good to knock back and we will be left with a second ruck and no back up so hope someone like a Darcy may be gettable worked into some draft picks and maybe adding in Fisher to the trade.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #548 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Hitouts to advantage are as good as hard ball gets.
Not at all, a Hard Ball get is a measure of an individual, for a HTA to become a stat it depends on the actions of multiple players.

After the Tap and the next possession comes the assessment of a HTA, so by it's very nature HTA depends on all the players around the stoppage;
 - The ruck winning the tap
 - Hitting the tap in the right direction and correct distance.
 - Any midfielder moving to the right place / direction.
 - Any midfielder being in the right place at the right moment.
 - Any midfielder being in front at the right moment.
 - Any opposition being caught behind.
 - Any opposition not guessing the right direction.
 - Any opposition not blocking our midfield.

HO are a pure ruck stat, a measure of a ruck winning a contest against a direct opponent, and as a stat it is not dependant on the actions of other players.
"Ruck, ruck, ruck, ruck ....... Ruck, ruck, ruck, ruck"

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #549 –
Quote from: shawny – on
None of us couch experts can predict what TDK will become but he is a different type to Pit and has shown signs to suggest he has a reasonable chance in the right environment to develop in the Gawn/English/Marshall/ type which is why clubs are offering overs for his signature. 
I suppose some would assert if those clubs had SoJ or Young they wouldn't be chasing TDK! ;D

That would be an absurdity!

TDK has the potential to become a Peter Moore / Blicsavs / Jackson type mobile ruck option, a ruck option that can push forward to hit the scoreboard and take up the attention of a KPD.
"Ruck, ruck, ruck, ruck ....... Ruck, ruck, ruck, ruck"
 

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #550 –
Quote from: LP – on
Not at all, a Hard Ball get is a measure of an individual, for a HTA to become a stat it depends on the actions of multiple players.

After the Tap and the next possession comes the assessment of a HTA, so by it's very nature HTA depends on all the players around the stoppage;
 - The ruck winning the tap
 - Hitting the tap in the right direction and correct distance.
 - Any midfielder moving to the right place / direction.
 - Any midfielder being in the right place at the right moment.
 - Any midfielder being in front at the right moment.
 - Any opposition being caught behind.
 - Any opposition not guessing the right direction.
 - Any opposition not blocking our midfield.

HO are a pure ruck stat, a measure of a ruck winning a contest against a direct opponent, and as a stat it is not dependant on the actions of other players.
By your 'logic' (and i use that term loosely, a hard ball get isn't a genuine stat because the opposition has a say in it as well....you might be up against Jack Watts or some other 'soft' player. Or in this instance a hitout isn't a true hitout because they were getting them against no-name rucks....

HTA is it not the same way a kick to advantage is measured etc
But nobody rates the amount of kicks a player gets higher than their kicks to advantage equivalent - disposal efficiency.

What you are saying is that you'd rather a player get 50 kicks, even if he only hits a target with 5 of them, rather than the same player get 20 kicks and finding a player with 10 of them.

If you arguing that a hitout is more important as it is dependent on the midfield helps you sleep at night, then thats on you.

Ignoring all that nonsense, and playing the game on YOUR (biased) terms, you have never legitimately had an answer to the relative nature of the stat.
That is you fail to address the previous statements about how it depends on the midfield, specifically the '2nd rate' midfield and that explains the TDK difference.
If that rang true, which spoiler alert - its nonsense, then why didn't that same gun midfield turn Young into a superstar ruck by getting him more hitouts to advantage? I'm sure you will try and trot out some other nonsense theory, but Occams razor should tell you that perhaps its nothing more than what i've been saying all along. Pittonet = good. Others = less good.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #552 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Keep Acres out of this discussion. :D
I didn't want to use examples, but i'd lie if i said he didn't jump into my head while typing.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #553 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
By your 'logic' (and i use that term loosely, a hard ball get isn't a genuine stat because the opposition has a say in it as well....you might be up against Jack Watts or some other 'soft' player.
Not at all, that's still a one on one contest like a hitout.

Quote from: kruddler – on
Or in this instance a hitout isn't a true hitout because they were getting them against no-name rucks....
I'm not going to blame Meek and Reeves for being ruck dominant in a losing Midfield, and that very circumstance highlighted by our team being down in winning ruck contests but dominant in clearances is the very issue that highlights the folly of rucks like Young and SoJ. The reason the Dawks lost the clearances isn't because of the tap, it's because of what came after.

It's bizarre some will claim a weaker ruck is somehow a consistent mechanism for a better outcome, it's just crazy thinking, it exposes just how limited some people think the ruck role really is.
"Ruck, ruck, ruck, ruck ....... Ruck, ruck, ruck, ruck"

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #554 –
I like how you selectively edited out all the parts you don't have an answer for.
That is why Young was unable to get more than 1 hitout to advantage in such a dominant midfield.
Puts a giant ruck sized hole in all your conspiracies about how the ruck actually works.