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Topic: General Discussions (Read 363036 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: General Discussions

Reply #1260 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
Correct profiling wouldn't be prejudiced, remembering that prejudice is to judge another unfairly based on... etc. Profiling more relies pure objectivity and consistencies with previous similar crimes. Once judgement and assessment becoming influenced by prejudice I believe it is no longer profiling... just some bigoted pr1ck attempting to force a fit to satisfy his/her twisted beliefs.
Correct as in done correctly? Or Correct as in gets the bad guy based off the profile?

Its a path i don't really want to go down, because arguing devils advocate will get you labelled a racist in this instance.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1261 –
Quote from: Mav – on
Maybe you heard storm warnings even though you didn’t dwell on them on a conscious level?

Oh you talk about sub-conscious and its acceptable.
I say it and its wrong?!  :P

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1262 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Oh you talk about sub-conscious and its acceptable.
I say it and its wrong?!  :P
I’ve always included sub-conscious observations as being part of intuition:
Quote from: Mav – on
To me intuition is the opposite of evidence-free assumptions. It is very useful when the decision-maker is flooded with observations or information, perhaps some of it contradictory, and trying to analyse each piece of information and weigh it formally will lead to decision paralysis. The decision-maker synthesises all of the information in a rational way although he or she might not be able to explain how to an observer. For example, someone might feel that they’ve entered a dangerous environment because they have observed certain things that they might not register on a conscious level or be able to articulate. That’s the classic, “I have a bad feeling about this” moment.
If you think I’ve criticised you for making the same point, direct me to the relevant post and I’ll comment further.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1263 –
Quote from: Mav – on
If you think I’ve criticised you for making the same point, direct me to the relevant post and I’ll comment further.
Quote
....the majority of people. Sometimes sub-consciously. Thus getting a feel for a situation without exactly knowing why - hence gut instinct and/or intuition.

You replied - "as i described", implying you reject my take on it.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1264 –
The actual words were “As I described above” and I was referring to the quote in my last post. I was saying I agreed with you, that we were on the same page.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1265 –
Quote from: Mav – on
The actual words were “As I described above” and I was referring to the quote in my last post. I was saying I agreed with you, that we were on the same page.
Which seems to contradict your previous statements then.  :-\

I feel like we are in an endless loop.  :-X

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1266 –
Quote from: Mav – on
Thryleon, perhaps I assumed that you regarded intuition as applying past experience after gathering enough information to understand how similar the new situation is. If you regard intuition as applying past experience without doing so, then we’re definitely on different sides of the argument. As the old saying goes, if you only have a hammer, then everything looks like a nail.

Thing is im not in the argument.  I was actually thinking about troubleshooting IT issues when thinking about intuition.

Thing is I'm a bit of a subject matter expert with that so my gut and instincrs are honed on years of repeating a similar process to get to a result and having to think of a process of elimination as you go.

The instinct works well when judging a humans nature but you need to actually get to know the human to do so.

Anyway im enjoying living in the philosophical side of this and stand by my original comment about the cheese.

Irrespective of what it's called its still crap cheese!
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1267 –
Kruddler, I don’t agree. I’m talking about sub-conscious observations not sub-conscious biases. In other words, observations that make a person feel that something isn’t right without being something he or she can put his or her finger on immediately. Maybe an alert cop will pick out someone impersonating a cop because of a gun worn on the wrong side or a uniform being a slightly wrong colour. That’s the sort of thing that can lead to a gut feeling that demands further investigation. But it is based on observation or evidence rather than a mindset that all of a particular subset of a population are suspect.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1268 –
Quote from: Mav – on
Maybe you heard storm warnings even though you didn’t dwell on them on a conscious level? Or maybe you had some nagging concerns which had nothing to do with the weather but they saved you from it by pure luck?  If not, maybe you are clairvoyant! In which case, send me some numbers for the next Powerball draw!

It was way before Tracy that the swap draft took place after my 'intuition', so weather didn't come into it (besides, I love stormy weather). There could have been some unconscious doubts at play... don't know, consciously I loved Darwin and was wrapped at going there to live.
If I was clairvoyant... I can assure you Mrs Baggers and I would be swimming in Tattslotto winnings!

How about this one:
And this could be easy for those on here to relate to. Us v Rottingwood last year. We are down at 3/4 time and looking ordinary, no evidence/reason for any optimism. For reasons completely unknown to me I announced on this forum that we would win and that H would kick 4 in the last qtr, and nothing in H's performance to that time would indicate he'd kick 1 goal let alone 4... precisely 4.

K... this happens to moi more times than I'd like to admit. I don't like it one bit, even scares the cr@p out of me at times.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1269 –
Makes me think of the Front Bar. Radar would be saying “gamble responsibly” while Mick would be saying, “No, it can’t lose: bet your house on it!” If You’d listened to Mick, you’d be a rich man  :P

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1270 –
Reality is the lovers of Coon cheese are in the minority with this situation and the wider community expect to see the word Coon removed from the Vocabulary in Aus and any jobs lost won't be taken into account.
In fact the surname will probably disappear over time as well in Australia imho.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1271 –
Quote from: Mav – on
Kruddler, I don’t agree. I’m talking about sub-conscious observations not sub-conscious biases. In other words, observations that make a person feel that something isn’t right without being something he or she can put his or her finger on immediately. Maybe an alert cop will pick out someone impersonating a cop because of a gun worn on the wrong side or a uniform being a slightly wrong colour. That’s the sort of thing that can lead to a gut feeling that demands further investigation. But it is based on observation or evidence rather than a mindset that all of a particular subset of a population are suspect.
My head hurts trying to understand your agreeing / not agreeing.
Lets wind it back a bit.

This was the quote that lead to this tangent.
Quote
Intuition or gut instinct is great if it is based on evidence. But intuition or gut instinct which isn’t based on evidence is just prejudice or bias.
You agree that intuition can be sub-consciously based on evidence? re cop knowing without knowing why.

You state that intuition based on a mindset is prejudice and bias.

My question is this.
If its all sub-conscious. How can you determine how and from where the 'feeling' came from....was it observational evidence or a pre-conceived mindset?? How can anyone say with any kind of certainty what a persons sub-conscious motivations behind their intuition were?
A second party would have to use their intuition to guess at where the first persons intuition came from.....but could be biased in their opinions. Soon you've got layering akin to Inception going on.

Which leads back to my original question...
Quote
What if an intuition or gut instinct is in line with evidence. Is it still prejudice and/or bias?
The trick here appears to be in the bias of the person answering the question.


Re: General Discussions

Reply #1272 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
K... this happens to moi more times than I'd like to admit. I don't like it one bit, even scares the cr@p out of me at times.

Should we start calling you Neo? You've broken out of the matrix and can see it all for how it is?

This kinda thing reminds me a story told by Mick Molloy about one of his many Red Dust trips up north into local aboriginal communities.
He told a story about how he was in a pub, yep, who'd thunk it, up North somewhere and over the course of a couple days all these aboriginals started flocking into town en masse. Multiple tribes who basically had no communication with eachother, no technological access to weather data or anything. All 'randomly' started coming to town. Imagine, all of australias capital cities coming to Melbourne at the same time, for seemingly no reason.

Through a few beers and catching up with the locals over a period of days, they all said there was huge storms coming. Traditional reports showed nothing out of the ordinary, rain definitely, but not end of the world stuff like they were suggesting. Now, i cannot recall the exact details and timeframe on this, but they were right. Not sure if there was a cyclone or just mass flooding, but it caught everyone (read - white people) by surprise as nobody predicted it. However, the aboriginals just kinda knew.
That was intuition on mass.

Post script to that story, Mick Molloy asked when he could next come up for a visit and asked one of the elders if he could come back in 6 months time, around October or whatever it was. The elder went and had a chat to other elders and came back to him and said better make it (lets say) December, as there would be more massive storms throughout October that year (much more than what would be considered normal). Mick agreed. Sure enough, in October, more massive storms and flooding.

They can also predict the type of storms coming based on how the rain feels when it hits their skin. This is not about being able to tell the difference between a light shower and a big downpour while you are in it, but rather whats to come in terms of duration and ferocity.

Ask them how they know, they can't tell you.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1273 –
I love reading the twists and turns in these discussions  :)

My late brother was a police officer for 20 years before going over to the dark side and becoming a barrister.  This was during a time of entrenched prejudice and bigotry as well as imported ethnic conflicts, the turmoil of post-war immigration, the sexual revolution, student protest movements, the Cold War and anti-war and anti-capital punishment demonstrations. 

Throughout his career as a police officer and as a barrister, my brother always maintained that material evidence was the key to obtaining a conviction, or avoiding one.  Gut feelings, intuition, prejudices, opinions and speculation almost invariably led police astray and obscured or missed evidence. 
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1274 –
The fact that you might not be able to put your finger on what activates your gut immediately doesn’t mean it will forever remain that way. The subconscious mind may merely be ahead of the conscious mind. Once you realise what put you on edge, you’d be pretty well placed to figure out whether your gut was being smart or just biased.

But that is just one type of intuition or gut feel. Another type of intuition is where there is a lot of information and it isn’t worthwhile to tease out every piece and consciously weight each as if a mathematical equation were involved. You just have to allow it all to swirl around like a soup as you decide whether to take the deal or go out with someone or, if you’re a judge, what penalty to impose. And you’re right that it becomes difficult to say in any particular case whether an inappropriate bias came into play. Perhaps the person who makes the decision might think he or she made an unbiased decision. But there have been analyses of particular Judges’ decisions over time that have revealed biases in favour of, for instance, private school alumni.

Of course, that makes it difficult to prove what has motivated people in particular instances. But trends will become apparent over time. And questions asked by employers and the like that seek information that might lead to discrimination should be banned, no matter how much the interviewer might claim they’d never use that information unlawfully, e.g marital status, sexual orientation, ethnicity or religion.

There have been many stories of applications being submitted with equivalent qualifications but one with an Anglo name and the other with a name that suggested the candidate was black. Surprise, surprise, the Anglo name would be called in for interview while the Black name would be screened out by HR’s gut instinct.