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Re: General Discussions

Reply #225 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Partly personal opinion about materials and architecture, and partly about cutting down 1000 trees that are hundreds of years old. 
Fair enough. I must say, having a been to France a number of of times, when you go through the small towns and rural areas, they are very good with their green space management and forests. But I take your point.
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Re: General Discussions

Reply #226 –
Didn't the Queen do the same thing after the 1992 Windsor Castle fire and her annus horribilis?  No-one objected to that and IMHO, same applies to Notre Dame.
 

Re: General Discussions

Reply #227 –
Notre Dame is an icon of western culture and should be restored to its former glory imo. Having visited it about 10 years ago, I was devastated when the fire occurred. It's a great shame that many ancient and proud oaks will have to be sacrificed but sometimes we need to do painful things. Over time those trees can be replaced.

Vivre la France!
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #228 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Partly personal opinion about materials and architecture, and partly about cutting down 1000 trees that are hundreds of years old.
 
I'm afraid @PaulP‍ religion has no morals, if some religious holiday said eat wild turtles, they'd eat them to the very last and anyone resisting would be racist, ......................... hang on! :o
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #229 –
There is such a thing as sustainable logging.  So long as each oak cut down is replaced with a new one (say 2 for good measure)  then what's the issue?
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: General Discussions

Reply #230 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
There is such a thing as sustainable logging.  So long as each oak cut down is replaced with a new one (say 2 for good measure)  then what's the issue?

I don't disagree with you, but playing devils advocate.

Thats like knocking down an old house in the inner suburbs and replacing them with 2 townhouses.

Its not quite the same. ;)

Re: General Discussions

Reply #231 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
There is such a thing as sustainable logging.  So long as each oak cut down is replaced with a new one (say 2 for good measure)  then what's the issue?
 Why not source plantation oak, it already exists but it's foreign but it's British plantations, are the French prejudice against British Oak?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #232 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
I don't disagree with you, but playing devils advocate.

Thats like knocking down an old house in the inner suburbs and replacing them with 2 townhouses.

Its not quite the same. ;)

Gee, I hope they don't call in A.V. Jennings to knock down Notre Dame and put up a couple of prefabbed hot gospelling halls!!  :o
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #233 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
I don't disagree with you, but playing devils advocate.

Thats like knocking down an old house in the inner suburbs and replacing them with 2 townhouses.

Its not quite the same. ;)

Not quite, the oak tree only has a life of 100 to 300 years if they cut closer to the 250 year mark then effectively this is sustainable logging in practice.

Beats the last reason they cut them down which was for the grandeur of the French fleet.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: General Discussions

Reply #234 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Not quite, the oak tree only has a life of 100 to 300 years if they cut closer to the 250 year mark then effectively this is sustainable logging in practice.

Beats the last reason they cut them down which was for the grandeur of the French fleet.
They can harvest them from somewhere they aren't native, from somewhere they were deliberately imported to preserve a supply of timber for ship building.

They're not native to Melbourne, and they are cutting down 100 year old trees left right and centre to kill off a foreign beetle. FFS, to Melbourne Greenies Oaks are a pest species, they wanted them cut down last year to preserve a concrete carbon reducing bike path from root damage!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #235 –
Quote from: LP – on
Why not source plantation oak, it already exists but it's foreign but it's British plantations, are the French prejudice against British Oak?

Tudor monarchs had most of the oak forests of southern England felled to build their warships. Notre Dame would be a somewhat nobler cause.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #236 –
If those up in arms read the last two paragraphs of this article I think they might change their tune.

We have people who own over 600 acres of French forests lining up to donate and are happy to be associated.

Considering we are talking about 1000 trees of a very specific size, I think they'll happily have this covered.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: General Discussions

Reply #237 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
Tudor monarchs had most of the oak forests of southern England felled to build their warships. Notre Dame would be a somewhat nobler cause.
Britain felled a fair chunk of Australia's forests as well back in the day, Vic Ash was prized for ship building and Britain needed timber! A lot of other local timbers were just turned into charcoal and shipped back.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #238 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Partly personal opinion about materials and architecture, and partly about cutting down 1000 trees that are hundreds of years old. 

They are plantation trees that were intended to be harvested Paul.  I don’t really see a problem, provided their loss is offset by more plantings.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #239 –
The information that is publicly available is not thorough, so it's hard to be definitive. But the best I can determine is as follows :

1. The trees are coming from old growth forests. The number of such forests is significantly less now than when the Cathedral was built, and together with obvious knowledge about climate change and the benefits of such forests, the French should be looking elsewhere.
2. Everything that needs to be achieved can be achieved by using materials that don't come from old growth forests. All the structural integrity, all the beauty, all the fireproofing, all the intricacy can be achieved by other means.
3. There's a lot more that goes on in forests other than trees. They are full blown ecosystems in every sense of the word.
4. There is no logic in the sustainable logging argument. We could also argue that the world is overcrowded, so therefore we should knock off all those over 80, because they'll be dead soon anyway. Sustainable sapien management.
5. This is simply a vote buying exercise by Emmanuel Macarone - he doesn't want to be seen as the cheapskate who shortchanged a national treasure.
6. There is a line of thinking from William Morris, through John Ruskin, Carlo Scarpa and others, that openly frowns upon slavish imitation / reconstruction of heritage items. From the manifesto of the SPAB (Society for the Preservation of Ancient Buildings), written in 1877 by Morris, Philip Webb and others, right through to own own Burra Charter, the very conditions of the time give materials and the working and usage of those materials a unique flavour that cannot be convincingly replicated later. Those of us who remember the faux convict bricks from the 80's will know exactly what I mean - they look empty and humbug because that's exactly what they are. We build for our time, with our knowledge, our materials, our skills and our circumstances.

At least that's how I see it.