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Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #15 –
I don't know where i stand on Marchbank.

He is very talented and underrated....and i think a few have forgotten how good he can be.

However, he is often injured and cannot be relied upon to play each week.

We have pushed for a stable back 6, and his (perhaps) forced inclusion could jeopardize that.

Alternatively....
Does Williamson deserve to lose his spot from 2020?
Does Newman deserve to get his spot back from 2019?
Does Stocker deserve a chance in 2021?
Does SPS get pushed out of the back 6 despite Teague saying he will be playing there?

4 players who could/should misplace Marchbank from that lineup......and probably could add a few more if forced too....

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #16 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
I don't know where i stand on Marchbank.

He is very talented and underrated....and i think a few have forgotten how good he can be.

However, he is often injured and cannot be relied upon to play each week.

We have pushed for a stable back 6, and his (perhaps) forced inclusion could jeopardize that.

Alternatively....
Does Williamson deserve to lose his spot from 2020?No
Does Newman deserve to get his spot back from 2019?Yes
Does Stocker deserve a chance in 2021?Yes
Does SPS get pushed out of the back 6 despite Teague saying he will be playing there?Yes

4 players who could/should misplace Marchbank from that lineup......and probably could add a few more if forced too....
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #17 –
@^^^^
How many players have you got in your back 6?
Willo, Newman....
Weiteiring, Jones....
Docherty...saad....plowman...
Stocker....Marchbank....?

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #18 –
Quote from: townsendcalling – on
Always interesting to see who the scribes believe are our best 22, with all things being equal.

Rebecca Williams (Herald Sun) has put her thoughts on paper.......

BEST 22 FOR NEXT SEASON:

FB: Lachie Plowman, Liam Jones, Caleb Marchbank

HB: Sam Docherty, Jacob Weitering, Adam Saad

C: Marc Murphy, Ed Curnow, Sam Walsh

HF: Jack Martin, Charlie Curnow, Jack Newnes

FF: Zac Fisher, Harry McKay, Eddie Betts

FOLL: Tom De Koning, Patrick Cripps, Zac Williams

IC: Sam Petrevski-Seton, Mitch McGovern, Will Setterfield, Levi Casboult

Interesting the omissions......Silvagni, Dow, O’Brien, Kennedy, Stocker, Kemp, Newman, Pittonet, Cunningham, Williamson, Gibbons, Cotrell.  Also, no room for Lachie Fogarty, Corey Durdin, Luke Parks, Jack Carroll along with Ramsay, Honey and Philp.

Whether you agree with the selected 22 or not, the depth is looking pretty good.

 

I reckon our depth, and our overall season will come down to the players she has left out.  If we can get some really good form from half of Dow, O’Brien, Stocker, Kemp, Cunningham, Williamson, Fogarty  (and i dont think this is an unrealistic expectation - they all have a chance to be really good AFL players), then we could really have something this year.

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #19 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
@^^^^
How many players have you got in your back 6?
Willo, Newman....
Weiteiring, Jones....
Docherty...saad....plowman...
Stocker....Marchbank....?


Most teams have a back 15.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #20 –
MacGovern is only on the list because Charlie has knee problems.  Might be in round 1 but struggles to be in the best 30.
DrE is no more... you ok with that harmonica man?

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #21 –
Agreed Prof.....Charlie fit means him and McKay as key forwards and Levi as ruck/forward option. Unless McGovern is burning down the house in the VFL he doesn't deserve to be gifted a spot.

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #22 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
@^^^^
How many players have you got in your back 6?
Willo, Newman....
Weiteiring, Jones....
Docherty...saad....plowman...
Stocker....Marchbank....?


Even with reduced rotations, you would have at least  one defender on the interchange and several others able to fill in as required.  At least 10 and as many as 15 of the 22 able to play as dedicated defenders.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #23 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Even with reduced rotations, you would have at least  one defender on the interchange and several others able to fill in as required.  At least 10 and as many as 15 of the 22 able to play as dedicated defenders.

I get that at least 1 bench player is a defender.
I get that there is a team defense

However, suggesting any team, even clarko's teams, have 15 'defenders' is just stupidity.
You have midfielders.....who run both ways....but are not defenders.
You have forwards.....who chase....but are not defenders.
You have rucks.....who are just rucks.

If you instill a 'defend first, attack second' mindset into your players....by picking 15 defenders.....then you are instilling a reactionary mindset into your team, and you have already lost the battle.

Our back 6 (or 7) are not the problem. We have back 6 capable players that are not going to be getting games because we simply cannot play them all.
Our team lacks in other areas.
- Midfielders who can hit a target by foot.
- Forwards who can lead correctly and impact the scoreboard consistently.
These positions are NOT made up of 'defenders' no matter which way you slice it.

So no, we will not play every player G2C mentioned in the same team because that is not how you pick a team, no matter how many 'defenders' you think a team requires.

Saad, Docherty, Plowman, Newman, SPS, Willo, Marchbank, Stocker....can not and will not all play in the same team. Some may play on a wing, or midfield on occassions.......maybe 1 will for the whole year....but there will be weeks where at least 1 of them, and up to 3 of them (depending on injuries) will be playing 2's.

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #24 –
Quote from: townsendcalling – on
Always interesting to see who the scribes believe are our best 22, with all things being equal.

Rebecca Williams (Herald Sun) has put her thoughts on paper.......

BEST 22 FOR NEXT SEASON:

FB: Lachie Plowman, Liam Jones, Caleb Marchbank

HB: Sam Docherty, Jacob Weitering, Adam Saad

C: Marc Murphy, Ed Curnow, Sam Walsh

HF: Jack Martin, Charlie Curnow, Jack Newnes

FF: Zac Fisher, Harry McKay, Eddie Betts

FOLL: Tom De Koning, Patrick Cripps, Zac Williams

IC: Sam Petrevski-Seton, Mitch McGovern, Will Setterfield, Levi Casboult

Interesting the omissions......Silvagni, Dow, O’Brien, Kennedy, Stocker, Kemp, Newman, Pittonet, Cunningham, Williamson, Gibbons, Cotrell.  Also, no room for Lachie Fogarty, Corey Durdin, Luke Parks, Jack Carroll along with Ramsay, Honey and Philp.

Whether you agree with the selected 22 or not, the depth is looking pretty good.


Surely Williamson can force his way in ahead of one of those? Plowman hopefully. I'd have Newman ahead of him also.
 

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #25 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
I get that at least 1 bench player is a defender.
I get that there is a team defense

However, suggesting any team, even clarko's teams, have 15 'defenders' is just stupidity.
You have midfielders.....who run both ways....but are not defenders.
You have forwards.....who chase....but are not defenders.
You have rucks.....who are just rucks.

If you instill a 'defend first, attack second' mindset into your players....by picking 15 defenders.....then you are instilling a reactionary mindset into your team, and you have already lost the battle.

Our back 6 (or 7) are not the problem. We have back 6 capable players that are not going to be getting games because we simply cannot play them all.
Our team lacks in other areas.
- Midfielders who can hit a target by foot.
- Forwards who can lead correctly and impact the scoreboard consistently.
These positions are NOT made up of 'defenders' no matter which way you slice it.

So no, we will not play every player G2C mentioned in the same team because that is not how you pick a team, no matter how many 'defenders' you think a team requires.

Saad, Docherty, Plowman, Newman, SPS, Willo, Marchbank, Stocker....can not and will not all play in the same team. Some may play on a wing, or midfield on occassions.......maybe 1 will for the whole year....but there will be weeks where at least 1 of them, and up to 3 of them (depending on injuries) will be playing 2's.

I'm not suggesting that we have 15 players rotating through our defence.  What I am suggesting is that we have 10-15 players who can play dedicated defensive roles.

For example, against Brisbane last season, our back six was eight players; Polson, Jones, Weitering, Petrevski-Seton, McGovern, Simpson, Williamson and Plowman (Williamson played most of the game on the wing but did have time in defence).  Lets swap Polson and Simpson for Docherty and Saad, move McGovern forward and bring Newman or Marchbank in to take his place.  We still have eight defenders, one of whom will spend a fair bit of time on the wing.  If necessary, we can swing Casboult, McGovern, Williams or Newnes, or Silvagni, Kemp and Stocker if they are in the 22, into defence.  All have played there or are earmarked as defenders.  That's at least 12 of our 22 who could reasonably be expected to play in defence and you could throw in C Curnow, McKay and De Koning if necessary. 

Will we play 8 blokes in the backline?  Definitely!  Will we play 10 blokes in the backline?  Possibly, depending on the circumstances, injuries, etc. Will we play 14 or 15?  Highly unlikely, but we could if we had to.

And then there's the extra number behind the ball to enable Docherty to play as a loose man.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #26 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
@^^^^
How many players have you got in your back 6?
Willo, Newman....
Weiteiring, Jones....
Docherty...saad....plowman...
Stocker....Marchbank....?

For craps and giggles:

BEST 22 FOR NEXT SEASON:

FB: Lachie Plowman, Liam Jones, Caleb Marchbank WIllo

HB: Sam Docherty, Jacob Weitering, Adam Saad

C: Marc MurphyStocker, Ed Curnow, Sam Walsh

HF: Jack Martin, Charlie Curnow, Jack Newnes Marc Murphy,

FF: Zac Fisher, Harry McKay, Eddie Betts

FOLL: Tom De Koning, Patrick Cripps, Zac Williams

IC: Sam Petrevski-Seton,  Mitch McGovern, Will Setterfield, Levi Casboult
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #27 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
For craps and giggles:

BEST 22 FOR NEXT SEASON:

FB: Lachie Plowman, Liam Jones, Caleb Marchbank WIllo

HB: Sam Docherty, Jacob Weitering, Adam Saad

C: Marc MurphyStocker, Ed Curnow, Sam Walsh

HF: Jack Martin, Charlie Curnow, Jack Newnes Marc Murphy,

FF: Zac Fisher, Harry McKay, Eddie Betts

FOLL: Tom De Koning, Patrick Cripps, Zac Williams

IC: Sam Petrevski-Seton,  Mitch McGovern, Will Setterfield, Levi Casboult
Newman?

Gibbons?

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #28 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Newman?

Gibbons?
Gibbons I am not a big fan of but I guess Betts will struggle to get on the park this year then Gibbons takes his spot. If Durdin comes on quick as people predict, both the afore mentioned lose their spot. As for Newman, I think he'll struggle to get a spot, he wants to coach anyway so if his playing career ends early, he has a path he wants to follow mapped out. Its a brutal business, given where we MUST get to, we will make some rutheless/brutal calls.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #29 –
I haven't put forward a best 22 because I'm not sure we have one.
That might sound like a cop out, but I do have my reasons.
[1] The ruck:
Until de Koning develops into the ruckman we all hope he will be, he is going to unsuited to some of his opponents. The man to help fill the breach is Pittonet, as he showed last year. I think we will have to play both of them quite often, even though the team structure works better with 1 ruck.
That already puts restrictions on our best 22.

[2] Our best forward line is yet to be determined. One of the big factors in that is the fitness or otherwise of Charlie Curnow and Eddie Betts. In form versions of Curnow and Betts makes our forward line a very exciting beast. But we cannot depend on them holding up week in, week out. Hopefully Murphy will spend more time forward, which also helps our structure. But we will be playing a lot of guys through the forward line and the midfield, as we have lots of options. There is also the apparent thought that Fisher should play more forward.
Tall forwards are also a question: we could fill the entire forward half with tall forwards who may well deserve games. H must play: he is the key forward of the future. Casboult probably should, unless we have injuries in defence. He is one of the best marks in the business and his kicking has improved a lot. Charlie Curnow, Jack Silvagni, a potential resting ruckman ...
You see the problem. Remember, Cripps will also spend time forward as our midfield becomes less dependent on him.

[3] The defence:
The 2 tall defenders pick themselves, but backup for them is looking decidedly thin. hence the idea of having Casboult play in defence if needed.
The question also arises if we come up against teams with 3 key marking forwards. Do we rob Peter to pay Paul?
Mid sized defenders were have. Smaller, quicker defenders are on the rise. But who to play? We have more guys than we have spots to fill. Form and injury will determine who gets on, and form rarely stays constant. Plowman is one of the first picked. Then there is Docherty. Then Saad and Williamson and Stocker and ... Very hard to pick who will be our best fit. Personally, I think we should pick our defence on a horses for courses basis, than just playing the same guys each week. The attacks we come across will offer different challenges and we must take them into account if we are to match up best.

[4] Midfield:
Cripps is the Bull. Hopefully he will be back at his best this year. Walsh is moving into the square more regularly and is top notch. Williams is the x-factor. Jack Martin will be spending more time in the midfield. Then we have our up and comers. Hopefully at least one of them can step up in 2021. All of a sudden, we don't look so thin there. Ed Curnow is an excellent stopper and will be in the midfield. Cottrell? He could be the next stopper on our list, as he certainly had the athletic qualities to do the job.
The actual structure of our 'best' midfield will depend on who steps up. Fogarty? Dow? Carroll? Newnes? Setterfield? Gibbons? O'Brien? Kennedy? Kemp?

I find it fascinating that we have so much choice. I really hope that some of the kids step up and put pressure on the guys who played in 2020. We also have a number of guys coming back from serious injury. Our 'best' team will depend on who can stay fit, who is in form, what structure we need and how well we can match up with our opponents. I will be happy enough to work out who was our best combo at the end of 2021 when I have the statistics to back it up. Until then ... :)
Live Long and Prosper!