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Topic: Post Game Prognostications!: AFL 2021 Rd 7: Carlton vs Drug Cheat (Read 22369 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Post Game Prognostications!: AFL 2021 Rd 7: Carlton vs Drug Cheat

Reply #135 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Their penalties were way bigger than ours.
 In what way?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Post Game Prognostications!: AFL 2021 Rd 7: Carlton vs Drug Cheat

Reply #136 –
Quote from: LP – on
In what way?

MBB is right.

Straight from wikipedia :

Essendon was fined $2 million (staggered over three years). This was the largest fine imposed on a club in the history of Australian sport.
Essendon forfeit its place in 2013 AFL finals series and be deemed to have finish in 9th. The club was on track to qualify for the finals in seventh place.
Essendon was prohibited from exercising draft picks in two drafts. In 2013, its first and second round draft picks were prohibited; in 2014, Essendon was prohibited from exercising the first and second round draft picks it would have received based on its finishing position, but was granted the last draft pick in the first round.
Senior coach James Hird was suspended from involvement in any football club for twelve months, effective 25 August 2013.
Football operations manager Danny Corcoran was suspended from involvement in any football club for four months, with a further two-month suspended sentence, effective 1 October 2013.
A fined $30,000 was imposed in relation to Mark Thompson. Ultimately, Thompson personally paid $5,000 of the fine, with Essendon covering the balance.

On top of all that, player suspensions, long drawn out legal processes, court cases, uncertainty and all the rest. You can't possibly say we were hit harder than they were.

Re: Post Game Prognostications!: AFL 2021 Rd 7: Carlton vs Drug Cheat

Reply #137 –
And Carlton ? Also from wikipedia :

The club was fined a total of $930,000 (including $57,576 which had been suspended from previous breaches). The club was also stripped of several early draft picks in the 2002 and 2003 AFL Drafts, specifically:

Draft picks No. 1, 2, 31 and 34 from the 2002 National Draft
All draft picks in the 2003 Preseason Draft
Its first and second round draft picks in the 2003 National Draft[2]
Carlton later earned a priority draft pick for the 2003 Draft, which it was permitted to keep, even though that selection took place prior to the first round of the draft. This was used to recruit Andrew Walker.

Although the club was penalised, no individuals within the club were ever formally identified or penalised by the AFL's investigation. The Carlton Football Club stated at the time that the only people at the club who had knowledge of the breaches were president John Elliott, and directors Wes Lofts, Kevin Hall and Barry Stone. The players were never found guilty of any wrongdoing.

Re: Post Game Prognostications!: AFL 2021 Rd 7: Carlton vs Drug Cheat

Reply #138 –
I think there are some omissions in those facts.

I thought despite having their default draft picks removed CheatsFC was allowed to trade back into the draft but Carlton wasn't? Do I have this wrong?

The dollar amount is a bit rubbery as well, if I recall after much begging the AFL reneged and suspended or backdoor financed CheatsFC payments by giving them access to emergency funding. What value is a fine if the fine is in effect paid by the authorities?

What was the difference in TPP between 2003 and 2013?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Post Game Prognostications!: AFL 2021 Rd 7: Carlton vs Drug Cheat

Reply #139 –
Quote from: LP – on
I think there are some omissions in those facts.

I thought despite having their default draft picks removed CheatsFC was allowed to trade back into the draft but Carlton wasn't? Do I have this wrong?

The dollar amount is a bit rubbery as well, if I recall after much begging the AFL reneged and suspended or backdoor financed CheatsFC payments by giving them access to emergency funding. What value is a fine if the fine is in effect paid by the authorities?

What was the difference in TPP between 2003 and 2013?

I don't know about trading back into the draft, but Essendon were helped by their insurer and wealthy benefactors, that much is clear, but I'm not sure you can say the AFL let them off lightly. The AFL can't impose restrictions on where the money comes from - you can't stop supporters or the club from fundraising. We also have wealthy supporters, who could have wiped out our debt and other financial issues in a jiffy.

Leaving aside money for a minute, the toll on their players, coaches etc., was way worse than what we endured. Jokes about us and brown paper bags are still in wide circulation, and we almost wear them as a badge of honour, which gives a bit of insight into how "serious" the offences were regarded. Apart from sites like this one, I don't hear too many injection jokes.

I know there are folks on here who will go to the grave believing the AFL, the umpires, the world in general hates us, and wants us dead and buried forever, but the overwhelming majority of our wounds are self inflicted.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/essendon/essendon-will-post-a-700000-profit-in-2014-despite-ongoing-costs-of-supplements-saga/news-story/3471b84bb0e8c3bb5754cc321e936c59

Re: Post Game Prognostications!: AFL 2021 Rd 7: Carlton vs Drug Cheat

Reply #140 –
Essendon drafted Zac Merrett in the second round of the 2013 draft.

They drafted Langford and Laverde in the first round of the 2014 draft.

They should have got a harsher penalty than we did, but the AFL went soft on them after sounding tough.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Post Game Prognostications!: AFL 2021 Rd 7: Carlton vs Drug Cheat

Reply #141 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I know there are folks on here who will go to the grave believing the AFL, the umpires, the world in general hates us, and wants us dead and buried forever, but the overwhelming majority of our wounds are self inflicted.
@PaulP‍ I think you tend to be naturally empathic, so you respond accordingly.

Personally, I tend to be cynical about the stated effect of the saga, it's too easy to say "I'm doing it tough" in the absence of any real evidence!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Post Game Prognostications!: AFL 2021 Rd 7: Carlton vs Drug Cheat

Reply #142 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Essendon drafted Zac Merrett in the second round of the 2013 draft.
.................................

Yes, they traded Stewart Crameri to the Doggies for pick 26.

Re: Post Game Prognostications!: AFL 2021 Rd 7: Carlton vs Drug Cheat

Reply #143 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Essendon drafted Zac Merrett in the second round of the 2013 draft.

They drafted Langford and Laverde in the first round of the 2014 draft.

They should have got a harsher penalty than we did, but the AFL went soft on them after sounding tough.
So the CheatsFC penalty was drafting three of the list that Ling now says are better than ours! ;)

Everything at CheatsFC going back to the start of the Sheedy era is smoke and mirrors, fans should realise that, because I'd assert in that history is the ultimate source of the crook CheatsFC culture, and guess who's back! :o
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Post Game Prognostications!: AFL 2021 Rd 7: Carlton vs Drug Cheat

Reply #144 –
Quote from: LP – on
@PaulP‍ I think you tend to be naturally empathic, so you respond accordingly.

Personally, I tend to be cynical about the stated effect of the saga, it's too easy to say "I'm doing it tough" in the absence of any real evidence!

That may well be true, but I'm not sure what evidence you need. In addition to everything else I've stated, those boys still don't know what they were injected with, and could potentially be ticking time bombs. If a football context, if that doesn't deserve empathy, I'm not sure what does. I also sense a red herring fallacy in there somewhere, but anyway.................

Re: Post Game Prognostications!: AFL 2021 Rd 7: Carlton vs Drug Cheat

Reply #145 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
That may well be true, but I'm not sure what evidence you need. In addition to everything else I've stated, those boys still don't know what they were injected with, and could potentially be ticking time bombs. If a football context, if that doesn't deserve empathy, I'm not sure what does. I also sense a red herring fallacy in there somewhere, but anyway.................
You can assert that there is a red herring in there, but you have to accept that what CheatsFC and it's apologists have publicly presented is true just to get to the start of it!

I don't start off assuming anything they say is true, because we know it was managed by corporate communications professionals right from the very start. The first people/person CheatsFC called was not a doctor or scientist, but a PR consultant! That is a significant tell!

Let's not forget the frantic "Mother Hunting", because they were deeply concerned about the poor women's mindset, they are so community minded it puts us to shame!

@PaulP I'd assert that fundamentally you want to see the good in people, and I'd also assert CheatsFC Psychopaths know that as well! That is not accusing you of being naivé, just having a default position that some bastards may conveniently manipulate.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"
 

Re: Post Game Prognostications!: AFL 2021 Rd 7: Carlton vs Drug Cheat

Reply #146 –
Quote from: DJC – on
...........................

They drafted Langford and Laverde in the first round of the 2014 draft.
......................................

Yes, traded Paddy Ryder to Port for pick 17 and drafted Langford.

Then picked up Laverde (the green) with pick 20, which was allowed under the original sanctions.

Giving up Ryder and Crameri is not exactly cheating the draft penalties. They're both good players. They had to give up something to get those draft picks.

Re: Post Game Prognostications!: AFL 2021 Rd 7: Carlton vs Drug Cheat

Reply #147 –
Quote from: LP – on
...........................................................
I'd assert that fundamentally you want to see the good in people, and I'd also assert CheatsFC Psychopaths know that as well! That is not accusing you of being naivé, just having a default position that some bastards may conveniently manipulate.

Cynicism can be manipulated just as easily as empathy.

Re: Post Game Prognostications!: AFL 2021 Rd 7: Carlton vs Drug Cheat

Reply #148 –
I keep hearing that we were 'harder at it', 'more aggressive' , 'played with more grit', 'all in supporting each other when the push and shove started' after Saturday's game, which I totally agree with.

Is it a coincidence  that it was the first week that John Worsfold was in around the place onsite?  Could it be an area that he identified from a distance and he had the opportunity to address the group and or individuals prior to last week's game?? They say Choco Williams has brought a harder edge to Melbourne just by being around and giving some good, old fashioned pumping up and needling to players.

Just a thought.

Re: Post Game Prognostications!: AFL 2021 Rd 7: Carlton vs Drug Cheat

Reply #149 –
Quote from: townsendcalling – on
I keep hearing that we were 'harder at it', 'more aggressive' , 'played with more grit', 'all in supporting each other when the push and shove started' after Saturday's game, which I totally agree with.

Is it a coincidence  that it was the first week that John Worsfold was in around the place onsite?  Could it be an area that he identified from a distance and he had the opportunity to address the group and or individuals prior to last week's game?? They say Choco Williams has brought a harder edge to Melbourne just by being around and giving some good, old fashioned pumping up and needling to players.

Just a thought.

Some AFL supporters believe Essendon played a soft, outside brand of football under Worsfold.