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Topic: Ajla Tomljanović vs America (Read 21049 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #45 –
Steffi Graf for mine.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #46 –
Quote from: DJC – on
I'm not sure that I understand "woke" but what has it got to do with Serena's GOAT status?  Court may have won one more grand slam but that was in a different era; the best tennis players couldn't compete in grand slam tournaments for around half of Court's career.

I reckon Martina Navratilova is the GOAT with Williams and Court tied in second place.
comparing eras is tricky business and the score on the board is important.  Vs her peers at the time court both travelled the world and dominated them all.

Its folly to suggest that the Aussie opens were weaker ergo she isn't the GOAT.

One example is she has played for 7 years longer than court did as an example. 
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #47 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
comparing eras is tricky business and the score on the board is important.
Agreed, for example the rackets now are twice the size and lighter, more powerful, the tennis balls are all standardized, footwear again better and lighter, clothing massively improved, even the surfaces are massively improved for all types including grass which is now genetically modified and laser levelled for a carpet like surface.

For the bulk of Court's career, if a player blew up at a chair umpire like the modern players do it wasn't just the loss of point, they would have lost a set or match, be banned from the next few tournaments, losing their income.

Perhaps the biggest issue, players now earn a comfortable living from just being on the tour, they don't have to win everything to survive, in fact if they qualify they barely have to win a game and they'll still be financially compensated!

I'm with you on the wokism, to me it is self evident in the public commentary, and those attitudes do have an impact, influencing opinion and changing careers. Now a sponsor might decide on an offer based on a players "image being a fit" with actual ability only a minor consideration. Many many minutes of pretty much everything and anything but tennis gets discussed, fashion, appearance, language, conduct, relationships, family, etc., etc.. Ironically, the same people that bang on like that tell us they are better educated than those of the past, not as judgemental and more tolerant! :o
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #48 –
I'm still wondering why a vote for Serena and not Court must be based on wokism.
 

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #49 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I'm still wondering why a vote for Serena and not Court must be based on wokism.

More of a vote against Court.  Her social views are not compatible with her being the GOAT, ergo, its very sign of the times to erase anything that doesn't fit.

My argument is that had she not had these views, no one would be interested in erasing her sporting achievements.  There have even been calls to take her name off the staidum at Melbourne Park.  Is it fair?  Thats a different discussion not linked to her sporting achievement.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #50 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
More of a vote against Court.  Her social views are not compatible with her being the GOAT, ergo, its very sign of the times to erase anything that doesn't fit.

My argument is that had she not had these views, no one would be interested in erasing her sporting achievements.  There have even been calls to take her name off the stadium at Melbourne Park.  Is it fair?  That's a different discussion not linked to her sporting achievement.

I appreciate you answering my query, but I think there's a conflation of different issues here, and it's getting hard to disentangle one from the other.

Her sporting achievements, in terms of the raw numbers, are a matter of historical fact. This isn't Nineteen Eighty-Four. There is no attempt to erase history, because there can't be. How you interpret and contextualize her achievements relative to other players, is the issue.

I also don't believe that removing her name from Margaret Court Arena is an attempt to diminish her sporting achievements, and I don't think that's possible. You could possibly argue that it is a back door punishment for her opinions, but once again, that's a separate issue and not linked to sport. This is a political and social issue, and her feats in tennis will remain unchanged. I don't believe anyone will think she is a lesser tennis player if her name is removed, or because of her beliefs. They may think of her as a lesser human, or an uninformed human, or a stubborn human with outdated ideas etc., but once again, that's not related to sport IMO.

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #51 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I'm still wondering why a vote for Serena and not Court must be based on wokism.

Me too! If that's not too woke.

It's a funny term; worn as a badge of pride by some and used derogatively by others  ::)
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #52 –
Stick Will Setterfield ingto a time machine and send him back to 1969 and he'd probably win the Brownlow and we'd have an extra flag  ;D

Times change, things progress.
Williams vs Court would be a total mismatch.

That shouldn't diminish the achievements of the past...and records are made to be broken.

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #53 –
Back in 1970, Court came out with this interesting take on apartheid: “ South Africans have this thing better organised than any other country, particularly America …I love South Africa.” Remember, the English Test team’s 1968 tour of South Africa had been cancelled because the English called up Basil D’Oliviera. The ICC banned the South Africans in 1970. The South Africans had been banned from the Olympics in 1964.

If she’d said that sports and politics shouldn’t be mixed, that would be one thing. But to laud the apartheid system is unforgivable. By necessary implication, she implied Australia would be better organised if we had apartheid (ignoring, for the moment, that we probably were not that far from it back then). You’d think she might have been more diplomatic given Evonne Goolagong was on her way to world number 1 in 1971. Court was lucky that Goolagong idolised her and Court never had to answer for her comment. But where was the public apology for that racist comment?

The same dynamic occurred with her homophobic attacks when she knew Sam Stosur and Casey Dellacqua we’re lesbians. She had previously attacked Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova. How could she feign surprise that she wouldn’t be welcome in the tennis community with that sort of history? It wasn’t as though she didn’t realise she was offending anyone. She said of her attacks that, “My statement was akin to pulling the pin on a hand grenade and throwing it into a crowded room.” And she parlayed those attacks into calls for donations to her church.

Court is a contemptible piece of crap. Her 24 Grand Slam titles will not be erased, but that doesn’t mean she is the best player of all time. Serena, Steffi and others were better than her and they’re also much better people.

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #54 –
Quote from: Mav – on
Back in 1970, Court came out with this interesting take on apartheid: “ South Africans have this thing better organised than any other country, particularly America …I love South Africa.” Remember, the English Test team’s 1968 tour of South Africa had been cancelled because the English called up Basil D’Oliviera. The ICC banned the South Africans in 1970. The South Africans had been banned from the Olympics in 1964.

If she’d said that sports and politics shouldn’t be mixed, that would be one thing. But to laud the apartheid system is unforgivable. By necessary implication, she implied Australia would be better organised if we had apartheid (ignoring, for the moment, that we probably were not that far from it back then). You’d think she might have been more diplomatic given Evonne Goolagong was on her way to world number 1 in 1971. Court was lucky that Goolagong idolised her and Court never had to answer for her comment. But where was the public apology for that racist comment?

The same dynamic occurred with her homophobic attacks when she knew Sam Stosur and Casey Dellacqua we’re lesbians. She had previously attacked Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova. How could she feign surprise that she wouldn’t be welcome in the tennis community with that sort of history? It wasn’t as though she didn’t realise she was offending anyone. She said of her attacks that, “My statement was akin to pulling the pin on a hand grenade and throwing it into a crowded room.” And she parlayed those attacks into calls for donations to her church.

Court is a contemptible piece of crap. Her 24 Grand Slam titles will not be erased, but that doesn’t mean she is the best player of all time. Serena, Steffi and others were better than her and they’re also much better people.

See Paul?

Its not solely about seeing someone new as greater.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #55 –
No, it’s about recognising pieces of crap when you see them. But a piece of crap can still be the best in his or her field. Henry Ford is a contender for the most influential car manufacturer ever despite being a racist arsehole and fascist sympathiser. Wernher Von Braun has a good case to be regarded as the greatest rocket scientist ever despite being a likely war criminal as he was well aware the Nazis were using slave labour to advance his work (look up Operation Paperclip, part of which was an effort to whitewash the history of Nazi scientists and engineers so the US could continue to harness their skills).

Put another way, a person may be both the best and the worst at the same time. But it just so happens Margaret Court isn’t the best female tennis player of all time.

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #56 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
See Paul?

Its not solely about seeing someone new as greater.

I think Mav is making the same point as I am, albeit with more strident language. I've got no doubt that he would readily admit that Court is the GOAT if he thought that, because he is separating one part of her life from another. I understand from your perspective you see cause and effect (i.e Mav hates Court's opinions, therefore he is determined to knock her off the No1 spot), but I don't think that's quite right.

 As I mentioned elsewhere, if you google Williams v Court or something similar, most of the scribes and experts (in fact all the ones I found without exception) give the nod to Serena. Obviously you can say that they are all woke, and they have to be because of their public standing, but IMO at some point you may have to accept that some folks believe Serena is No1 because that's just what they believe, and not because they have it in for Court.

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #57 –
Quote from: Mav – on
Serena, Steffi and others were better than her and they’re also much better people.
In fairness, we have no knowledge of their private views because they keep them private, would a Nazi be innocent just because he stayed shtum?

Would Mother Teresa be beatified if she never made heard religion public?

It makes me think of Joker, who mostly got in trouble opening his mouth, at which time some lambast him while others forgive, but really any general commentary on either side of this debate is lumping together a diverse range of issues.

If we want to move the debate forward, it seems that allowing people to speak freely to have a wider transparency of beliefs seems critical, otherwise things can only turn subversive by definition. It doesn't matter if we think they are right or wrong.

If a loved one suffered a heart attack and Hitler offered to assist with CPR should he be denied the opportunity?

The lumped debate is nearly always wrong in just about any context.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #58 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I think Mav is making the same point as I am, albeit with more strident language. I've got no doubt that he would readily admit that Court is the GOAT if he thought that, because he is separating one part of her life from another. I understand from your perspective you see cause and effect (i.e Mav hates Court's opinions, therefore he is determined to knock her off the No1 spot), but I don't think that's quite right.

 As I mentioned elsewhere, if you google Williams v Court or something similar, most of the scribes and experts (in fact all the ones I found without exception) give the nod to Serena. Obviously you can say that they are all woke, and they have to be because of their public standing, but IMO at some point you may have to accept that some folks believe Serena is No1 because that's just what they believe, and not because they have it in for Court.

In my experience this is how people operate.  To be the GOAT its not solely about trophies its also about disposition, and for reference, I will point to the Roger Federer vs Novak Djokovic debate.  Nadal has become the currently undisputed GOAT but you don't need to guess whom would be the alternative sans Novak.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #59 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
In my experience this is how people operate.  To be the GOAT its not solely about trophies its also about disposition, and for reference, I will point to the Roger Federer vs Novak Djokovic debate.  Nadal has become the currently undisputed GOAT but you don't need to guess whom would be the alternative sans Novak.
Across eras I'm not even sure Federer is the best, Bjorn Borg was pretty good, I can't see how it is possible at all to rate each opponent of any great player to establish a baseline, so the GOAT claim is naturally subjective.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"