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Topic: Where are our goals going to come from? (Read 28169 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Where are our goals going to come from?

Reply #30 –
I think the main reason we don't get enough goals from our midfield is that they have to play higher up the ground than most of the other top teams - and the reason for this is we don't have enough run out of the backline.

We just don't have the run and carry to make springboard attacks from the back half, so almost all of our scoring comes from midfielders delivering to forwards.

If we can get Boyd, WIlliams, Saad, Cincotta to set up plays from defensive 50 with run and bounce, the ball may well end up in the hands of Walsh/Cripps/Kennedy etc on the run from 40-50 metres out, instead of them kicking it from 70 metres out to contested situations.

The other top sides do this so well (think of Crisp/Quaynor/Coleman/Whitfield etc), and it's part of our game that I think we need to add.
This is now the longest premiership drought in the history of the Carlton Football Club - more evidence of climate change?

Re: Where are our goals going to come from?

Reply #31 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
I dont think we have too many worries.

The challenge for us isn't about ability anymore, it's about consistency and continuity.  If we can get a decent run with injuries this season, we'll give the flag a red hot shake.
Agreed, fans see a short term issue due to injury or form and what backups of backups of backups, but it is not realistic with the TPP and list caps to have quality AFL backups for every position. If you have too many in the backup ready to go category your list will crash after 4 or 5 years because they all peak and wane together, or you have to find ways to bring in ready made types like the Handbaggers, but even they are now struggling.

Just like you have a distribution of types, you have to have a distribution of ages as well.

I get the fan frustration, but to sustain long term success you have to accept some risk such that chance will play a role in your fate.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Where are our goals going to come from?

Reply #32 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Yes, that’s true Thry.

A greater contribution from our mids and rucks would make life easier for our forwards though.

I've got an idea how to get more out of our rucks.....play Jack as one! ;)

Re: Where are our goals going to come from?

Reply #33 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
I've got an idea how to get more out of our rucks.....play Jack as one! ;)

Play Jack as a ruckman and his form as a tall forward drops off dramatically … and that has repercussions for Harry and Charlie.

Pitto generally stays behind the ball when we’re attacking and that must be his instructions.  It would be nice if he clunked a mark inside 50 from time to time.

I really don’t think we need to change our goal kicking options all that much - if you’re scoring plenty of goals from centre clearances you can’t expect to score many from rebounds - but some additional contributors wouldn’t go astray.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: Where are our goals going to come from?

Reply #34 –
Points scored in 2023(average)

First 13 games: 72.3
Last 13 games: 91.7
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Where are our goals going to come from?

Reply #35 –
Removed the huge  Eagles games from both averages and its

65.7
87.7
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Where are our goals going to come from?

Reply #36 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Play Jack as a ruckman and his form as a tall forward drops off dramatically … and that has repercussions for Harry and Charlie.

Pitto generally stays behind the ball when we’re attacking and that must be his instructions.  It would be nice if he clunked a mark inside 50 from time to time.

I really don’t think we need to change our goal kicking options all that much - if you’re scoring plenty of goals from centre clearances you can’t expect to score many from rebounds - but some additional contributors wouldn’t go astray.

The day Jack kicked 4 and was BOG and got 3 brownlow votes, he was yep, playing as a backup ruck.

People perceptions override the reality.

Jack
Games as ruck/backup ruck - 6
Goals while playing backup ruck -7
1.16 goals/game as a ruck/forward

Games with 2 rucks in the team (or 1 ruck and Young as backup) - 10*
Goals with 2 rucks in the team (or 1 ruck and Young as backup) - 8*
*Game vs Adelaide - SOJ was KPF, pitto got injured early in 1st quarter, Young/SOS played backup
0.8 goals/game as a pure forward

If we take out games against West Coast and North as they were just terrible and inflated averages.

1.2 goals/game as a ruck/forward
0.5 goals/game as a pure forward

So you may want to rethink your statement. ;)

Re: Where are our goals going to come from?

Reply #37 –
Do we really need yet another thread morphing into a Jack-the-ruck discussion ?

Re: Where are our goals going to come from?

Reply #39 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
If the shoe fits, and people are posting mistruths, then yes.
Then we best make sure people know that best game from SoJ was against Port at Marvel, with Port was in the middle of it's ruck crisis and had to ruck an underdone / premature return from injury Lycett (Dixon had gone out) with only Finlayson as a backup.

TDK playing on the fastest surface in the AFL was jumping all over Lycett early, Lycett aggravated his injury in a heavy contest early and then spent the rest of the game trying to belt the cover off our blokes but he couldn't catch them.

McKay also got injured early, but because Port had also brought Jonas back in prematurely and Lycett was broken they were short of talls at both ends of the ground.

A good game from SoJ, but hardly a test!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Where are our goals going to come from?

Reply #40 –
Quote from: LP – on
Then we best make sure people know that best game from SoJ was against Port at Marvel, with Port was in the middle of it's ruck crisis and had to ruck an underdone / premature return from injury Lycett (Dixon had gone out) with only Finlayson as a backup.

TDK playing on the fastest surface in the AFL was jumping all over Lycett early, Lycett aggravated his injury in a heavy contest early and then spent the rest of the game trying to belt the cover off our blokes but he couldn't catch them.

McKay also got injured early, but because Port had also brought Jonas back in prematurely and Lycett was broken they were short of talls at both ends of the ground.

A good game from SoJ, but hardly a test!

...and remind people that Port had won, what 13 in a row up to that point as well?

Perhaps you would prefer it if i brought up the game against Freo where Jack, Harry and Young had to go up against the man-mountain Darcy from Freo  who got 58 hitouts, (and athletic freak Jackson) yet we won by 50+ point as jack had 19 touches. Which was the most by any ruck for us all year, only matched once by TDK against easybeats WCE.

Take away the bias mate.
Lets play your game for $h!ts and giggles
Take away his best game for the year, and the figures still show he averages more goals/game as a backup ruck than a forward.

Whichever way you want to slice it, he is NOT worse off performance wise playing in the ruck. In reality, its actually the opposite.
Which surprise, surprise, is what i've been saying all year.

I don't want to reignite the debate again, just pointing out what DJC was factually wrong.

Re: Where are our goals going to come from?

Reply #41 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
The day Jack kicked 4 and was BOG and got 3 brownlow votes, he was yep, playing as a backup ruck.

People perceptions override the reality.

Jack
Games as ruck/backup ruck - 6
Goals while playing backup ruck -7
1.16 goals/game as a ruck/forward

Games with 2 rucks in the team (or 1 ruck and Young as backup) - 10*
Goals with 2 rucks in the team (or 1 ruck and Young as backup) - 8*
*Game vs Adelaide - SOJ was KPF, pitto got injured early in 1st quarter, Young/SOS played backup
0.8 goals/game as a pure forward

If we take out games against West Coast and North as they were just terrible and inflated averages.

1.2 goals/game as a ruck/forward
0.5 goals/game as a pure forward

So you may want to rethink your statement. ;)


Jack had three good games when he played as a back-up ruckman and five playing as a tall forward with no or occasional ruck duties.

When Jack plays as the third tall forward, he relieves Harry and Charlie, demands a decent tall defender, regularly finds space and can take contested marks.  De Koning has a slightly different skill set but plays a similar role as third tall forward.  When Jack is used as a back up ruckman, his forward craft suffers and Charlie and Harry have to work a lot harder.

Jack played as second ruck in seven games (Pitto was subbed off early in Rd 2).  He kicked five goals in those seven games and we won three and drew one.  In the nine games Jack wasn't second ruck, he kicked nine goals and we won five (including the game where he was subbed off).  We lined up without Jack in the ruck in 17 games and won 12 of them.  Pitto and the King rucked together in 12 games for nine wins.

Our forward line functions better (a) when Pitto and De Koning share the ruck duties and (b) when Silvagni and/or De Koning play as the third tall.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: Where are our goals going to come from?

Reply #42 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Jack had three good games when he played as a back-up ruckman and five playing as a tall forward with no or occasional ruck duties.

When Jack plays as the third tall forward, he relieves Harry and Charlie, demands a decent tall defender, regularly finds space and can take contested marks.  De Koning has a slightly different skill set but plays a similar role as third tall forward.  When Jack is used as a back up ruckman, his forward craft suffers and Charlie and Harry have to work a lot harder.

Jack played as second ruck in seven games (Pitto was subbed off early in Rd 2).  He kicked five goals in those seven games and we won three and drew one.  In the nine games Jack wasn't second ruck, he kicked nine goals and we won five (including the game where he was subbed off).  We lined up without Jack in the ruck in 17 games and won 12 of them.  Pitto and the King rucked together in 12 games for nine wins.

Our forward line functions better (a) when Pitto and De Koning share the ruck duties and (b) when Silvagni and/or De Koning play as the third tall.

Thats all fascinating, but it has nothing to do with the original statement.

Jack is NOT hurt by playing as a backup ruck. He excels at it.

If you wanna talk about how well others go, then thats talking about team balance....and thats a whole other kettle of fish, which i've already argued to death.

Re: Where are our goals going to come from?

Reply #43 –
If the club listens to SoJ fanboys it's going to love SoJ into oblivion, the obsession with him rucking seems to make them appear oblivious to his plight.

No matter how heavy the begging, our club in the absence of injuries is never going with him ahead of Pitto or TDK, and we already have McKay, Cripps, Charlie, McGovern taking inside 50m stoppages, with Cripps particularly impressive inside 50m in finals even while injured.

Add to that next year we'll probably still have several of Mirkov, Young, Lemmey or O'Keefe to pick from, with TDK another pre-season under his belt and obviously on the rise despite the bitterness of his naysayers.

Even so if SoJ actually gets a future opportunity to ruck and manages to prove the bulk of us wrong then we'll be happy for him.

In the meantime I suggest his boosters stop talking down his team-mates and actually back the squad even when SoJ isn't in it! ;)

SoJ as a 1st choice AFL ruck option!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL2DH-nKBeA
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"