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Re: AFL Rd 20 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #30 –
Quote from: shawny – on
150% agree with this EB.  He is capable of a lot more then he is delivering.  He is not full on attacking the ball in flight like we know he can - is more content to end up in a push and shove wrestle way too often for a guy who can run like he can. Also watched him at least 3 times last week back out of a marking contest trying to get the Joe the goose in the goal square.

If he had our captains heart the bloke would be better then Buddy but seems content to just plod along at times.

Need a massive finals series from him and hate to say it but to this point Hogan deserves the AA ahead of Charlie IMO.

I don't disagree with what you right here, but i feel Curnow needs someone playing devils advocate.

I think the way we use Curnow is terrible.
There was an article about kicking efficiency and best kicks inside 50 and worst kicks etc.
We had 2 in the top 10 of the bad category, Kennedy was #1 and Walsh was something like #7.
When we kick it to charlie, we kick it on top of his head.
He, like Buddy, is a freak athlete but Marking is not his strongest suit.

We are much better kicking it to him on the lead. Or even dribbling it along the ground to him. His athleticism makes him somewhat unbeatable in those situations and his skill 'on the turn' blows most defenders away.

A lot of the goals Charlie gets are either....
1. Free kicks from desperate defenders trying to wrestle/scrag him
2. Over the back types where he gets back onto the ball from a pack.

Charlie copped a lot of s*it about his finals series and i think in part it was because he didn't get the same (soft?) frees he is used to during H+A. You need to earn your goals in finals.

So yes, Charlie could chase and tackle more. He could be more involved when the ball is not in his hands. He might be struggling with injury now as well.
However, we could do more to help him as well. Perhaps treat him better and we'll get better results from him.

Re: AFL Rd 20 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #31 –
Tough crowd around here. Charlie regularly gets the opposition's best defender, regularly tagged and scragged, is arguably playing injured, arguably out of form, can kick goals outside 50, can kick them off the deck, is a good mark on the lead and in a pack, tries to mix up how he kicks goals (e.g out the back), gets up the ground to mark on the wing, takes game saving marks in defense, and is currently leading the Coleman, after winning the last 2.

How much is one guy supposed to contribute ?

Re: AFL Rd 20 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #32 –
We get close to nothing from about 6 players every week.  Sure they play the odd cameo, but Collingwood won a flag last year not just because their stars fired and kept dragging them across the line, but due to getting am even contribution across the board, which is why the chastising of Charlie drives me spare.

Blokes won the coleman 2 years running.  So long as he goes up a level come September he's delivered again in season 2024 despite not being at the top of his powers. 
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: AFL Rd 20 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #33 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
I don't disagree with what you right here, but i feel Curnow needs someone playing devils advocate.

I think the way we use Curnow is terrible.
There was an article about kicking efficiency and best kicks inside 50 and worst kicks etc.
We had 2 in the top 10 of the bad category, Kennedy was #1 and Walsh was something like #7.
When we kick it to charlie, we kick it on top of his head.
He, like Buddy, is a freak athlete but Marking is not his strongest suit.

We are much better kicking it to him on the lead. Or even dribbling it along the ground to him. His athleticism makes him somewhat unbeatable in those situations and his skill 'on the turn' blows most defenders away.

A lot of the goals Charlie gets are either....
1. Free kicks from desperate defenders trying to wrestle/scrag him
2. Over the back types where he gets back onto the ball from a pack.

Charlie copped a lot of s*it about his finals series and i think in part it was because he didn't get the same (soft?) frees he is used to during H+A. You need to earn your goals in finals.

So yes, Charlie could chase and tackle more. He could be more involved when the ball is not in his hands. He might be struggling with injury now as well.
However, we could do more to help him as well. Perhaps treat him better and we'll get better results from him.

Yep
Let's put aside the fact that he may be playing injured for a moment.
I was watching a video of all his 2022 goals last night.

When the ball is delivered high to him he is usually being double teamed or scragged.
There are often too many in the contest, so yep...his goals sometimes come from going back and getting the ball that comes to the back of the pack.
In those situations marking is not a strength, it's his positioning.

But at the other end of the ground...
How many times has he gone back into defence this year and taken good strong marks at crucial times?
Down there his marking has proved a strength.

On the lead he's virtually unstoppable and that includes the chaos balls bouncing into the forward line.
So it is probably correct that we do him no favours with delivery high to a pack mark situation.

Those quick 'turn and go' goals, or kicks to another forward are also impressive.
That shows a degree of athleticism that's not always there in other aspects of his game.
I don't think it's because he's not capable...it may because he is playing injured.

One area where he seems to be lacking is actively contesting a ball once the initial contest is over and the ball is in dispute on the ground.
The have been times when the second efforts aren't great.
I actually don't see him bending over to get to those contested balls...which is one reason I suspect he may be carrying a lower back injury.

Charlie is a unique talent.
He's an excellent goal kicker...but he's also a 'long range' goalkicker.
He's close to the top of our talent list.
He'd be in the first three-four players picked each week.
But do we use him to best effect.




 

Re: AFL Rd 20 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #34 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Tough crowd around here. Charlie regularly gets the opposition's best defender, regularly tagged and scragged, is arguably playing injured, arguably out of form, can kick goals outside 50, can kick them off the deck, is a good mark on the lead and in a pack, tries to mix up how he kicks goals (e.g out the back), gets up the ground to mark on the wing, takes game saving marks in defense, and is currently leading the Coleman, after winning the last 2.

How much is one guy supposed to contribute ?

Spot on Paul!

Charlie would have to be the player opposition teams put the most effort into negating.  He cops the best defender, and several assistants, every week and doesn’t always get the best delivery or chop outs from teammates.  Despite that, he’s leading the Coleman with 50 goals and his efforts in defence at crucial times have been match saving.

On top of that, he is very humble person who goes out of his way to interact with supporters and lend his support to many worthy causes.

If folk feel the need to have a crack at Charlie, they’re probably better off following another team 🙄

It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: AFL Rd 20 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #35 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Spot on Paul!

Charlie would have to be the player opposition teams put the most effort into negating.  He cops the best defender, and several assistants, every week and doesn’t always get the best delivery or chop outs from teammates.  Despite that, he’s leading the Coleman with 50 goals and his efforts in defence at crucial times have been match saving.

On top of that, he is very humble person who goes out of his way to interact with supporters and lend his support to many worthy causes.

If folk feel the need to have a crack at Charlie, they’re probably better off following another team 🙄



Absobloodylutely.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: AFL Rd 20 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #36 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Tough crowd around here. Charlie regularly gets the opposition's best defender, regularly tagged and scragged, is arguably playing injured, arguably out of form, can kick goals outside 50, can kick them off the deck, is a good mark on the lead and in a pack, tries to mix up how he kicks goals (e.g out the back), gets up the ground to mark on the wing, takes game saving marks in defense, and is currently leading the Coleman, after winning the last 2.

How much is one guy supposed to contribute ?

Yep! Let me repeat that... YEP!
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: AFL Rd 20 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #37 –
In my coaching experience, I have dealt with three types of athlete.

There's the naturally talented athlete.
There the 'workhorse' athlete whose success comes solely from hard work and dedication
Then there's the athlete who combines both aspects...natural talent and hard work...They're usually your champions.

One of the most frustrating things is an athlete chock full of talent who is not prepared to work on weakness in his make-up or attitude. We've had a few of those over the journey.

My favourites are the 'workhorse'.
It's why I have a lot of time for those footballers who lack a bit of talent but will give you 100%.
We've had a few of those over the journey too.

Then there are the champions...and a good example of that is Patrick Cripps. Naturally gifted but also bent on working on improving aspects of their game that are a weakness (Goalkicking is a good example with Paddy which is much better than it was.) Harry is well on the way, turning around his goalkicking. I suspect Charlie is also of a similar bent.

Said all that to say this...
If there is a deficiency we want to point out it doesn't mean we don't rate that player highly.
It's either some aspect that a good footballer will work on, or it could point to a limitation such as an injury which would explain it.

The thing is these guys are the best of the best.
They may be the difference between a flag or not in the long run.
Anything we think they could do better is fair game for discussion.
And not in anyway a slight or disrespect.

Re: AFL Rd 20 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #38 –
Clearly been injured. Has picked it up the last 2 weeks.

In the first 11 rounds he ranked number 1 in the comp at creating goals when he is targetted inside 50. Since rd 12 he ranks 47th.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: AFL Rd 20 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #39 –
Quote from: shawny – on
150% agree with this EB.  He is capable of a lot more then he is delivering.  He is not full on attacking the ball in flight like we know he can - is more content to end up in a push and shove wrestle way too often for a guy who can run like he can. Also watched him at least 3 times last week back out of a marking contest trying to get the Joe the goose in the goal square.

If he had our captains heart the bloke would be better then Buddy but seems content to just plod along at times.

Need a massive finals series from him and hate to say it but to this point Hogan deserves the AA ahead of Charlie IMO.
Shawny...Agree on Hogan, Charlie has way more natural talent but Hogan is working harder than I have ever seen him and I like the Charlie who also works hard for his teammates too but he has become more spasmodic in this regard and I have the feeling is more interested in his own goal tally rather than being part of a forward collective.
He should kick a truckload on duds like Zerk-Thatcher or Esava Ratagolea this week if he can get out of cruise mode....

Re: AFL Rd 20 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #40 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Shawny...Agree on Hogan, Charlie has way more natural talent but Hogan is working harder than I have ever seen him and I like the Charlie who also works hard for his teammates too but he has become more spasmodic in this regard and I have the feeling is more interested in his own goal tally rather than being part of a forward collective.
He should kick a truckload on duds like Zerk-Thatcher or Esava Ratagolea this week if he can get out of cruise mode....
Agreed. Once he has been beaten or not gained possession his efforts seem to quickly fall away. However he did seem a bit better v Nth but not really where I would like to see him.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: AFL Rd 20 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #41 –
Comparing Charlie and Hogan's stats for the season tells an interesting story.  They've both played 18 games so totals are appropriate.

Scores - Charlie: 53.38  Hogan: 49.17
Score involvements - Charlie: 137  Hogan: 117
Goal assists - Charlie: 14  Hogan: 10
Disposals - Charlie: 224 Hogan: 210
Marks - Charlie: 109  Hogan: 109
Marks inside 50 - Charlie: 49  Hogan: 71
Inside 50s - Charlie: 48  Hogan: 17
Rebound 50s - Charlie: 8  Hogan: 1
Intercepts - Charlie: 21  Hogan: 10
Tackles - Charlie: 16  Hogan: 26
Frees for - Charlie: 23  Hogan: 22
Frees against - Charlie: 10  Hogan: 5
1%ers - Charlie: 33  Hogan: 28
Metres gained - Charlie: 5202  Hogan: 3645

Hogan is an old fashioned, stay at home full forward whose job is to kick goals, and he does that very well with good service from his teammates and a "me first" approach.  Charlie is a more mobile key forward/utility who gets up the ground, gets involved in different play phases, takes on the game and is very much a team first player.





It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: AFL Rd 20 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #42 –
Leaving aside Carlton and GWS, you could ask 16 other clubs whether they would choose Charlie the slacker or Jesse the hardest working man in show business, and I bet all 16 would choose Charlie. I doubt very much those clubs would be quibbling about untested and unfounded comments on social media.

All communities develop over time a certain level of internal coherence, mainly through self referencing and self validation, but the "truths" held by those communities don't necessarily correspond to facts regarding the subject matter at hand. This is a reality that cannot be avoided. None of us have any clue wrt Charlie's training loads, injury status, game plan / game day instructions, taking a long term view on his role / game time etc. Personally, I doubt Voss, Weitering, Walsh and co would tolerate half ar$ed efforts, and if they do, then we are not a professional outfit : semi professional at best, corrupt at worst.

Re: AFL Rd 20 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #43 –
Not sure what stats for the whole year have to do with discussion on a recent form slump.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: AFL Rd 20 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #44 –
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/C/Charlie_Curnow.html#20240

Whatever other information may be available, the numbers from AFL Tables suggest that his two poor games were Tigers and Giants. A post earlier from MBB asserts that a drop between Rds 1-11 and R12 onward is most likely due to injury,and if so, then his performances since R12 are all the more remarkable IMO, even allowing for the 2 poor games.