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Re: Soccer fans' behaviour

Reply #45 –
Quote from: Lods – on


Does anyone seriously believe we'd ever have a system where violent offenders are subjected to violence in order to curb their violent  behaviour....1014 maybe not 2014.

Ever seen A Clockwork Orange?  ;D

Re: Soccer fans' behaviour

Reply #46 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Ban them.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the English Premier League seem to have a lot less problems than they did 20 -30 years ago with this trouble. They've taken a hard line at club level. Deprived trouble makers of the opportunity to attend matches.

Does anyone seriously believe we'd ever have a system where violent offenders are subjected to violence in order to curb their violent  behaviour....1014 maybe not 2014.

Ban them and charge them with criminal charges that apply. The same you would if they did behave like this anywhere else but increase the penalties and fines. Over time the numbers will drop. I'm sure CCV TV can catch out dozens of guilty parties at each venue each and every time. Violence encourages violence and a beating won't stop them but anger them more. Some time behind bars, and a few thousand dollars in penalties, along with criminal records, and/or behaviour bonds will make things different. Especially if they offend again and spend more time behind bars. At least they will be off the streets out of harms way. I agree something at club level to set an example. Teaching the children and lower league levels that this behaviour will be punished severely. I don't know what the penalties are at the moment, but they are not enough. Their opportunity to act is now.
This digital world is too much for us insects to understand.

Re: Soccer fans' behaviour

Reply #47 –

Re: Soccer fans' behaviour

Reply #49 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: Gozza – on
Quote from: Lods – on


Does anyone seriously believe we'd ever have a system where violent offenders are subjected to violence in order to curb their violent  behaviour....1014 maybe not 2014.

Ever seen A Clockwork Orange?  ;D

Interesting movie
Great piece of fiction ;)

So Lodsie, I know you've worked in prisons and what not for a long time. Have you never at least felt the urge or the thought cross your mind to kick them up their defiant arses?

Re: Soccer fans' behaviour

Reply #50 –
Quote from: Gozza – on
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: Gozza – on
Quote from: Lods – on


Does anyone seriously believe we'd ever have a system where violent offenders are subjected to violence in order to curb their violent  behaviour....1014 maybe not 2014.

Ever seen A Clockwork Orange?  ;D

Interesting movie
Great piece of fiction ;)

So Lodsie, I know you've worked in prisons and what not for a long time. Have you never at least felt the urge or the thought cross your mind to kick them up their defiant arses?

Never Gozz
Because once you lose control in that situation..... You've lost big time....and that can be career ending, or even worse, leave you open to charges yourself.
Defiant behaviour is often designed for exactly that purpose..... to get under your skin.
So you separate the behaviour from the individual...and never take things personally.
You see for many of these guys (and girls) the expectation is that if they're abusive and defiant you'll react physically...that's what happens at home.
They can't cope with someone who stays calm and doesn't react.
It unbalances them....and it's effective because in  most cases you have control.
If not.... it buys time until your support staff arrive.

(I will add that support in the custodial settings I've worked in has always been pretty good...duress alarms and radios are worn and assistance is always pretty prompt.)

Re: Soccer fans' behaviour

Reply #51 –
Quote from: MilkIt – on
Quote from: Thryleon – on
As a South Melbourne FC die hard im numb to anything that happens in the HAL(ia) league.  HAL standing for Hyundai A League the bit in brackets is an in joke for Greeks.

As far as I can tell any negative press the media can give soccer they can and I feel that this might be due code rivalry and vested interest by media that dont want to see soccer take off.

My advice to them is dont be concerned with airing the codes dirty laundry and focus on figures and the A league will go belly up in die course.  Imagine the AFL not having one profitable club and having to bail out 27 million dollar losses annually?  Thats whats happening in the A league.  Grass roots soccer is footing the bill with junior registrations tipping the four digit figures in some academies.  All points to disaster for soccer moving forward.

I don't see why the media would have a vested interest in the failure of "the world game" in our country and you can't say these riots were singled out because the media has an agenda. The media will always report the negatives before the positives because that's what sells, and from what I can tell there a very few positives to report on the A-League anyway.

Over the past ten years, and even before that, any negative press got more and prolonged airtime than anything to do with results, goalscorers, goals scored, matches played across the country or anything else.

Do you recall the Dandenong Thunder VPL final?  We got a 5 minute news report about a flare, with no mention of the result of the match.

Back to the newspapers and you will find that the chief sports writers are all affiliated with other codes, and since I can remember, unless a major tournament is happening, articles on soccer are dead set buried.  The AFL draft gets better news coverage than Australian Soccer as a code does.  Dont tell me that they evenly present the news in newspapers.  Its dead set bulldust.

The media have no idea how to report on the code because they are a majority of ex sportsman from other codes, who dont  appreciate the game.  Its cringeworthy to hear Tim Watson and Andrew Maher talk about soccer on SEN as they have relatively no idea about the game.  Its the same when you hear Basil Zempilas commentating on anything (including AFL and Tennis) as he seems to have little to no idea.

The people who are being focussed on as "moronic fans" are dead set oxygen thieves yet all we do is give them their 5 minutes of fame by showing the reports and photos over and over again of these blokes on the news.

Lets not forget what C7 sport did to the NSL.  Purchased the media rights for the NSL when the game was desperate for money, and then showed the matches only after Midnight on school nights.  No footage of the NSL was seen for the better part of 5 years thanks to this movement, and the news reports only focussed on violence.  The stupid side of that, was that being a regular attendee of NSL matches, I was as surprised as most of you would have been to discover that lots of these events even occurred yet there they were on the News for the world to see.

There are 135 a-league fixtures every season not including finals, there are 11 games highlighted over the course of 3 years on the newspapers today. The vast majority of fans do nothing wrong. Even in the games highlighted above. The 99% suffer because of the stupid acts of a minority and it's a shame because the general public (in part thanks to the media) label all soccer fans as hooligans.  This couldn't be further from the truth.  I have chanted and jumped up and down with the best of them, never have I lit a firework, never have I been close to a flare, and never have I feared for my safety aside from when police on horse back were near us due to the nature of a beast that might be out of control (the smell from their faeces on the other hand was truly disgusting which gives you an idea of the timeframe they were standing there).

In the past, the ethnic's were the blame of all this, and even in today's commentary its the ethnic groups being highlighted again, but thats just an easy target.  Blame the ethnics, push them out of the game, and problem solved.  Trouble is, the issues still occur, by different set of fans.  Why?  Because this element is not even being managed correctly.  Never has been managed correctly and never will be managed correctly because despite all the footage that they currently have in stadiums, the fans are never banned from matches, or at least searched prior to entering the gates.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Soccer fans' behaviour

Reply #52 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: Gozza – on
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: Gozza – on
Quote from: Lods – on


Does anyone seriously believe we'd ever have a system where violent offenders are subjected to violence in order to curb their violent  behaviour....1014 maybe not 2014.

Ever seen A Clockwork Orange?  ;D

Interesting movie
Great piece of fiction ;)

So Lodsie, I know you've worked in prisons and what not for a long time. Have you never at least felt the urge or the thought cross your mind to kick them up their defiant arses?

Never Gozz
Because once you lose control in that situation..... You've lost big time....and that can be career ending, or even worse, leave you open to charges yourself.
Defiant behaviour is often designed for exactly that purpose..... to get under your skin.
So you separate the behaviour from the individual...and never take things personally.
You see for many of these guys (and girls) the expectation is that if they're abusive and defiant you'll react physically...that's what happens at home.
They can't cope with someone who stays calm and doesn't react.
It unbalances them....and it's effective because in  most cases you have control.
If not.... it buys time until your support staff arrive.

(I will add that support in the custodial settings I've worked in has always been pretty good...duress alarms and radios are worn and assistance is always pretty prompt.)

Spot on... Capt. LODS.

As mentioned previously I worked for a short period about 25 years ago in a female 'correctional facility'. The girls were under the age of 18. It was especially challenging at times because so many of the girls were in there after being sexually violated by males, about my age (at that time). What you write is exactly the best approach ...especially being the only male 'youth worker' at the place. Gaining trust was the major goal.

And GozzMan, I never ever felt like kicking any of them in the @rse. When you learn the 'human' story of most folks in 'correctional facilities' compassion, education, strong therapy and understanding become the dominant factors. People I know who deal with refugees report a very similar situation... when you know the real 'human' story, so much changes. Probably explains why governments, especially conservative governments, seek to demonise refugees... if we knew the 'human' story...
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Soccer fans' behaviour

Reply #53 –
Well I can tell you right here right now that if one of those soccer farkwits came up to me looking for trouble, I'd be all for breaking the sh1thead in half. "Sue me, I'm not worth sh1t"  ;D

I think we're talking about two different things...youre both talking about prison, and while i asked the question and agree with what's been said im broadly referring to the soccer hooligans. Not sure youd have the chance to counsel the situation if one of them came violently to knock your head off.
 

Re: Soccer fans' behaviour

Reply #54 –
Problem is Gozz.... it might not just be a case of suing you.
Hit someone in the wrong place or have them hit their head while they fall and you're off to gaol.

I'm not sure whether the King hit/ Cowardly hit debate is getting the same attention in your part of the world but a series of attacks in NSW, where young fellows have been seriously injured or killed in recent times have the general populace (and the politicians) baying for blood.
It's not a time to get involved in a street brawl.

Re: Soccer fans' behaviour

Reply #55 –
...and to highlight that...as we speak (write)......

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2014/01/06/11/28/league-player-pleads-guilty-to-assault
Quote
Mr Grogan labelled Packer's behaviour "cowardly and deplorable" and said the result could have been much worse.

"The person fell to the ground and luckily it would appear did not suffer those injuries seen in media reports as of late," Mr Grogan said.

"There was potential for that, Mr Packer.

"You added fuel to the fire by attacking a man lying motionless on the ground, punching him and then standing up and stomping on his head."

Mr Grogan said that the public was sick and tired of the behaviour Packer showed that night.

Re: Soccer fans' behaviour

Reply #56 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Problem is Gozz.... it might not just be a case of suing you.
Hit someone in the wrong place or have them hit their head while they fall and you're off to gaol.

I'm not sure whether the King hit/ Cowardly hit debate is getting the same attention in your part of the world but a series of attacks in NSW, where young fellows have been seriously injured or killed in recent times have the general populace (and the politicians) baying for blood.
It's not a time to get involved in a street brawl.

I understand that, and it's all fair enough. Sometimes smashing someone in self defence is the way to go if it means you don't get belted up yourself.

Re: Soccer fans' behaviour

Reply #57 –
I'm not sure whether alcohol was involved in these fans behaviour, but I think thats where the (broader) problem lies, in regards to violence (in particular between young men)

There was a recent program done in Newcastle which may go some way in addressing the problem, I'll leave it for you to decide. I refer you here: http://www.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/agdbasev7wr/bocsar/documents/pdf/cjb137.pdf 
Some important points include:
-There were corresponding increases in the proportion of assaults recorded earlier in the night but, with the exception of CAD data, these did not wholly offset the reduction occurring between 3am and 6am. This is an important point to note because one argument against restrictions in hotel trading hours is that assaults will simply be temporally displaced toward earlier times in the evening. The current study provides strong evidence against such a conclusion.

-There was no significant increase or decrease in recorded assaults in Hamilton or in the premises that were not subject to the intervention, which suggests that there was no evidence of any displacement
to the other late-night entertainment
areas in Newcastle.


The cost of alcohol and violence is becoming a cost that society can no longer bear, on an economic basis alone, let alone the real life impacts on families, friends, communities.

We live in one of the most amazing countries in the world. People don't need alcohol in Australia to have a good time. Be thankful for it.

Re: Soccer fans' behaviour

Reply #58 –
Your correct Tex. You don't need alcohol in Australia to have a good time. At the same time aggressive and angry sporting supporters don't need alcohol to be violent. People with natural hate for others and an aggressive nature show their true colours sober or intoxicated. In fact they can be at their most dangerous when they are sober. Its a very hard issue to address In Australia quite a few years ago there was a different issue. Most of the soccer clubs had a dominant race amongst the players. The team colours at times too.

It was races against races and the supporters followed the race more than the club. Similar to a Croatian tennis player playing a Serbian player. There would be trouble before a game involving these two races of supporters against each other. South Melbourne Hellas as an example was a Greek soccer club. If they were to play against a former Yugoslav Macedonian side there could be potential trouble. I am wondering if this is still the case here with the soccer clubs still. I'm not claiming to have any answers or to be preaching any points here, but soccer has always had a racial tension to teams playing each other.

The addition to alcohol just fuelled the issue more than it needed to be. Its similar to gangs here in Australia and world wide. Sometimes its just groups that hate each other for no particular reason, and other times its races that hate each other based on something that may have happened in wars years ago. Sometimes hundreds of years ago, if not more. Sometimes its based on a races religious beliefs. I'm not being racist or singling out races here either. I followed Footscray Just years ago. My cousin played for Preston Macedonia. I always got on really well with the Hellas fans at any matches I have watched, because I am part Serbian which makes me Orthodox belief, which is what the majority of Greek fans religious belief is. Melbourne Croatia fans would be ones I would avoid because of past racial tension in the original homeland, and the fact that it is Catholic vs Orthodox.

Sometimes its just stupidity, and revenge on a scuffle in a past match. Sometimes its just stupidity on the day with hot heads who can't control their anger over a loss or a draw. I hope its not the above I have posted. Years ago there were cases where this was an issue. I hope it still doesn't exist, but many factors could be something that the leagues should look into. I hope I haven't offended any here with the above, or made this look like its something it probably isn't. Whatever it is it needs to be addressed. It hade potential to be so much worse years ago when the teams were different. By name, title, and supporters racial backgrounds. Just my view, and something to think about. That's why I hardly follow the sport here in Australia now. Been close to a few too many close calls at matches in the past. ;)
This digital world is too much for us insects to understand.

Re: Soccer fans' behaviour

Reply #59 –
Quote from: Mantis – on
Your correct Tex. You don't need alcohol in Australia to have a good time.

I have a different philosophy and a very simple rule to live by: if you can't handle your grog, stay away from it. Simple.  :)
 
Too many d1ckbrains getting on the piss who can't handle it.