Carlton Supporters Club

I dont think we need players that are the best in the comp in a said position. We need players that know and understand what they are doing. For us, we have some of the best players in the competition which makes our position untenable.

Quote from: pinot – on July 07, 2025, 12:02:08 pm

I dont think we need players that are the best in the comp in a said position. We need players that know and understand what they are doing. For us, we have some of the best players in the competition which makes our position untenable.

Which brings us back to the original argument....
Are these players still some of the best?
Are they playing like some of the best at the moment?
If not, will they be some of the best again.

The old saying that a "Champion team will always beat a team of Champions" probably applies to us in spades when you consider how well some opposition clubs 'team' together.
We're not in the same ballpark in terms of connection.

Quote from: Lods – on July 07, 2025, 01:33:03 pm

Which brings us back to the original argument....
Are these players still some of the best?
Are they playing like some of the best at the moment?
If not, will they be some of the best again.

The old saying that a "Champion team will always beat a team of Champions" probably applies to us in spades when you consider how well some opposition clubs 'team' together.
We're not in the same ballpark in terms of connection.

Voss was employed to build a Champion team not a list of Champions, not that we have many true Champions apart from Cripps imho anyway and some of our supposed better players are way overhyped.
Looking at our opponents and reigning Premiers, Id suggest Fagan isnt a great tactical genius much like Voss but the one thing he has done well is weld that talented list into a champion team who play for each other. They are well known for being tight off the field and you never hear any bad stuff about relationships going sour with coach/players and they have overcome the player retention issues that many interstate clubs face as well as being a destination club.
A lot of that has also been put down to Greg Swann running the club well but has now left and taken on a job at the AFL so it will be interesting to see if they can maintain that bond and smooth off field running.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on July 07, 2025, 02:16:28 pm

Voss was employed to build a Champion team not a list of Champions, not that we have many true Champions apart from Cripps imho anyway and some of our supposed better players are way overhyped.
Looking at our opponents and reigning Premiers, Id suggest Fagan isnt a great tactical genius much like Voss but the one thing he has done well is weld that talented list into a champion team who play for each other. They are well known for being tight off the field and you never hear any bad stuff about relationships going sour with coach/players and they have overcome the player retention issues that many interstate clubs face as well as being a destination club.
A lot of that has also been put down to Greg Swann running the club well but has now left and taken on a job at the AFL so it will be interesting to see if they can maintain that bond and smooth off field running.

Well aside from whatsapp photos and what not over in Vegas anyway... 

Quote from: Thryleon – on July 07, 2025, 02:51:35 pm

Well aside from whatsapp photos and what not over in Vegas anyway... 

My thoughts too Thry

Didn't a brissie player knock over disabled bloke at a taxi rank and snatch his cab?

Quote from: pinot – on July 07, 2025, 12:02:08 pm

I dont think we need players that are the best in the comp in a said position. We need players that know and understand what they are doing. For us, we have some of the best players in the competition which makes our position untenable.

Which brings us back to the original argument....
Are these players still some of the best?
Are they playing like some of the best at the moment?
If not, will they be some of the best again.

The old saying that a "Champion team will always beat a team of Champions" probably applies to us in spades when you consider how well some opposition clubs 'team' together.
We're not in the same ballpark in terms of connection.

Quote from: Lods – on July 07, 2025, 01:33:03 pm

Which brings us back to the original argument....
Are these players still some of the best?
Are they playing like some of the best at the moment?
If not, will they be some of the best again.

The old saying that a "Champion team will always beat a team of Champions" probably applies to us in spades when you consider how well some opposition clubs 'team' together.
We're not in the same ballpark in terms of connection.

Class is permanent until you cant run and jump.
Half the 1995 Premiership team were in their 30s with long injury histories.

Quote from: pinot – on July 06, 2025, 09:31:46 pm

List isnt the problem - it's drilling a squad.

Chris Scott has drilled Geelong - no matter who is in or out they are drilled as a squad.
Chris Fagan has drilled Brisbane
Craig McRae has drilled Collingwood
Sam Mitchell has drilled Hawthorn
Adam Kingsley has drilled GWS
Hardwick has drilled GCS,

What do these coaches have in common?

They were not re employed after getting sacked.

Lyon, Brad Scott, Clarkson is banana territory

Longmuir is just an awful coach like Buckley.

This isn't IMO a good argument. By this logic, the only viable candidates for senior coach are first timers or coaches that left previous clubs of their own accord.

Dogmatic beliefs rely on skewed perspectives and cherry picking data. Our greatest ever coach was sacked 4 times, including being reappointed at Carlton for a second stint, by a fair number of the same board, President, Vice President etc that sacked him in the first place.

Quote from: PaulP – on July 07, 2025, 10:04:26 am

This isn't IMO a good argument. By this logic, the only viable candidates for senior coach are first timers or coaches that left previous clubs of their own accord.

Dogmatic beliefs rely on skewed perspectives and cherry picking data. Our greatest ever coach was sacked 4 times, including being reappointed at Carlton for a second stint, by a fair number of the same board, President, Vice President etc that sacked him in the first place.

Sacked coaches can be very successful but lost their job as the Board don't think he can get through to the players anymore after being there for a long time. Those sacked coaches aren't failures and often go on the do very well elsewhere. History is littered with those. Parkin, Hafey, Matthews, even Wallsy. Walls lost the players badly at Carlton in 1989 after a GF, Flag and a PF, that happens, but went on to turn Brisbane around to the point they have hardly looked back, outside of an ordinary few yeears before Fagan. When Parko came back his voice was fresh again and again had results.

On the other hand there have been coaches that simply struggled in the senior job and the time they got another job they failed again. Peter Knights was an example of that. Those hsouldn;t go to 2nd clubs if the club is smart. I'll give Vossy his due, he was alot better with us then with Brisbane, but gradually a couple of his shortcomings rise to the surface. Tactically he has always struggled and sides take advantage of that lack of tactical nous. Also, Vossy could never rebuild a side. He seems to always want it to happen "now". Can tell by his error with list management at Brisbane, which ended up crashing then, and selection integrity at Carlton. There is a suspicion he kept playing big names when they weren't right, something Russell seemed to allued to, rather than, what he sees a as a risk, playing the younger bloke. We have more debutants playing this year but seemingly out of necessity. Whether players have bucked up, we will never know.

Unfortunately, it seems now he has lost the players something horrid.

One has to legitimately wonder if there exists a Guinness World Records entry for lost players. The number of Carlton coaches that seem to "lose the players" is staggering, not only for the frequency with which it it occurs, but the brief time period between occurrences. Every few years, we hear about losing the players. Pagan, Malthouse, Teague, Bolton, now Voss. They don't seem to get lost at other clubs.

Pagan, Malthouse and Bolton definitely lost the players but I don't recall hearing about Teague (or Ratten) 'losing the players'; they seemed to suffer from impatience at Board level when the injury bug hit and bigger name coaches were available.

IMO Teague and Ratten were better skill-development coaches who deserved to be given more support.  So far, the lack of skill development suggests that Voss lacks similar capabilities.

I remain highly skeptical that the typical discourse(s) conducted by supporters bears much resemblance at all to the discourse conducted by football people within the four walls. If one measures this "losing the players" by on field performance, then I guess our fluctuations under Voss are like a case of lost and found ? First half 23, lost. Second half 23, found. First half 24, found, etc.

Sorry but I don't buy it. I should make it clear that my ire is not directed at you.