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Topic: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments  (Read 71187 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments

Reply #330 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
How are you and others being tolerant of Shawny's views? This thread was created to mock him.
I understand this thread was created to enable @shawny to post his political views here without cross posting on pretty much every thread. No different to the RedTrump thread, or the EV thread, they are nothing more than a filing cabinet? But even so, that doesn't give license to anyone to post fake news or false claims without opportunity for others to redress.

So how are we being intolerant?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments

Reply #331 –
Shawny raised a perfectly legitimate about the kwality (sic) of the current Vic Labor government.  This has actually prompted some interesting commentary and discussion, however, it is a turn off when personal accusations fly.

It is interesting I don't really see a hammering of the Vic government - there should be a greater scrutiny, but everything seems to get shut down pretty quickly, or just run out of steam.  It is there, but not as loud as it could be considering there is an election this year.

The major thing that I would disagree with Shawny about is that the current government wasn't legitimately elected as Jacinta wasn't the leader at election time.  We all have a dilemma at times about whether to vote for a good local member, or a party that you may be more aligned with.  Yes, the 'known' leader at the time may attract/deflect votes, but everyone knows that outside of the leaders' electorate we're not voting directly for them.

It is going to be hard for a lot of people this election - it is hard to argue that the current gov is good, but the LNP or PHON?  Yes, we typically throw out a government rather than vote the opposition in - could be anyone's game.

Saw an interesting article that it could be hard for VEC to determine who the 2 party's are - Labor & LNP or PHON, which could then delay the results.

Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments

Reply #332 –
Quote from: LP – on
Quote from: madbluboy – on
How are you and others being tolerant of Shawny's views? This thread was created to mock him.
I understand this thread was created to enable @shawny to post his political views here without cross posting on pretty much every thread. No different to the RedTrump thread, of the EV thread, they are nothing more than a filing cabinet? But even so, that doesn't give license to anyone to post fake news or false claims without opportunity for others to redress.

So how are we being intolerant?
Its a football forum where fake news, rumours and innuendo reside comfortably and multiply in number because its all part of the landscape of public forums. It seems we can all agree and disagree on football matters and none of it is taken too seriously and posters move on but Politics seems to be a sensitive topic that is extra divisive.
FWIW I enjoy Shawny postings and see nothing fake about what he draws attention too and Political Parties do get elected in many cases imo based on the personalities/leadership/selling of rather than the policies.
eg How many people could tell you what One Nations major Policies were? but I bet they could tell you who is their leader and what was his/her previous employment...
Jacinta Allan was democratically elected to Parliament as the member for Bendigo East but became Premier as she was chosen unopposed as Leader of the Labor Party after Andrews stepped down. She wasnt elected as Premier Elect initially which I think is the point Shawny was trying to make.

Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments

Reply #333 –
Quote from: northernblue – on
And as for tolerance, you, me and everyone else, maybe not Lods… but the rest of us have all been intolerant boofheads at least once… some are BoG in that space.

Nah...Me too!

I was listening to Parliament last week and Albanese was asked a question by a Greens member regarding the Israeli PM's visit and the Police response to the protests. It generated a heated exchange between two other members. "Rip her apart" was the term used.

Now you might not like Albanese or agree with much of what he stands for in terms of policy.
But what he said has relevance to what we've seen here over the off-season.
We've had a number of heated debates over everything from 'list mangement' to this, and other political threads.

What Albanese said was..."We need to turn the temperature down"....and I've been guilty of that as well.

He also used a football analogy that applies to politics...stating that folks see political situations much like supporting a football team.
We become a little one eyed and wear our Blue, Red, Green, and now more often Orange glasses.

We've had a tough year in 2025.
People have been angry about a range of issues and lack of success on field has fuelled that.
That's flowed over into many of our non-football threads.
People's intelligence and beliefs are being questioned basically because we see the club or the world a little (quite) differently.

I visit quite  few other Carlton and other clubs sites and facebook pages.
I have a fair bit of time in retirement.
I still reckon we stack up pretty well in terms of tolerance and debate.
(You should read the social/ political threads on other football sites that run them).

Difference of opinion and debate is the core business of sites like ours.
Without that difference, the site would be a pretty, boring empty place.
It's also tied to a large extent to 'down' times, whether that be in football terms or social and political times.
Losing is good for site business, as are troubled social times.
When we're truly successful again as a football club we won't have a lot to talk about after the euphoria dies down.

Posts are a bit like a football.
Make that the objective, and argue against things you don't believe in with all your effort.
But let's try and keep the personal stuff (of which I've also been guilty at times) out of the debates.
It's an old footy saying.
Play the post (ball), not the poster (man, woman ;)

Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments

Reply #334 –
So turn the heat down we can do what vicpol did and buy some machete bins?  :P

Shawny and I have gone head to head on a few football related matters, but none of it is personal.  Political tends to be a bit more personal, because frankly, government action (or inaction) impacts everyone a little differently depending on what walk of life you and your loved ones are in.

Personally, a major government failing, is spending a lot of money, and effort to give the appearance of doing something, without actually achieving anything.  Lots of it motivated by optics, and less about outcomes.  The machete bins are a fan favourite of mine, because they represent my previous argument better than I can make it.  A lot of money pilfered away reactively to a couple of incidents, and an exercise in tokenism at best. 

Not to enforce change, not to enforce any sort of law enforcement.  Whats the difference between a machete, an axe and a meat cleaver?  Hell, it could be a golf club or a cricket bat too.  Degrees of injury for each item, and also deadliness, but ultimatley the person wielding it is the issue (yes that applies to guns, but guns are a little more regulated than any other item ive mentioned here).

This is government agnostic too and event agnostic.  There were degrees of stupidity regarding all things government, but lately things have gotten a bit ridiculous.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments

Reply #335 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Quote from: LP – on

I understand this thread was created to enable @shawny to post his political views here without cross posting on pretty much every thread. No different to the RedTrump thread, of the EV thread, they are nothing more than a filing cabinet? But even so, that doesn't give license to anyone to post fake news or false claims without opportunity for others to redress.

So how are we being intolerant?
Its a football forum where fake news, rumours and innuendo reside comfortably and multiply in number because its all part of the landscape of public forums. It seems we can all agree and disagree on football matters and none of it is taken too seriously and posters move on but Politics seems to be a sensitive topic that is extra divisive.
FWIW I enjoy Shawny postings and see nothing fake about what he draws attention too and Political Parties do get elected in many cases imo based on the personalities/leadership/selling of rather than the policies.
eg How many people could tell you what One Nations major Policies were? but I bet they could tell you who is their leader and what was his/her previous employment...
Jacinta Allan was democratically elected to Parliament as the member for Bendigo East but became Premier as she was chosen unopposed as Leader of the Labor Party after Andrews stepped down. She wasnt elected as Premier Elect initially which I think is the point Shawny was trying to make.

EB....... halleluiah

Thank you very much for articulating that so nicely.

The Allan position was a very minor point in a much deeper discussion that as usual got hijacked to avoid the question at hand. Only DJC had the balls to reply to the original post on the $15B dollars of our states tax paying money being washed away. However i did receive replies about how I'm into conspiracy theories, social media fantasies, fake news and finally that i could become the next Dezi Freeman. LP latest reply or should i say word salad of dribble that only he knows WTF hes talking about is a perfect example of how to divert, sidetrack and say anything to avoid the topic raised.

How many pages are we up to for the 'Red Trump' who runs a country on the other side of the world?  :-X Sorry DJC i know you get quite annoyed at any reference of the man but the irony is too much to ignore.

Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments

Reply #336 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
So turn the heat down we can do what vicpol did and buy some machete bins?  :P

Shawny and I have gone head to head on a few football related matters, but none of it is personal.  Political tends to be a bit more personal, because frankly, government action (or inaction) impacts everyone a little differently depending on what walk of life you and your loved ones are in.

Personally, a major government failing, is spending a lot of money, and effort to give the appearance of doing something, without actually achieving anything.  Lots of it motivated by optics, and less about outcomes.  The machete bins are a fan favourite of mine, because they represent my previous argument better than I can make it.  A lot of money pilfered away reactively to a couple of incidents, and an exercise in tokenism at best. 

Not to enforce change, not to enforce any sort of law enforcement.  Whats the difference between a machete, an axe and a meat cleaver?  Hell, it could be a golf club or a cricket bat too.  Degrees of injury for each item, and also deadliness, but ultimatley the person wielding it is the issue (yes that applies to guns, but guns are a little more regulated than any other item ive mentioned here).

This is government agnostic too and event agnostic.  There were degrees of stupidity regarding all things government, but lately things have gotten a bit ridiculous.

Agree Thryleon.  Once you get personal it's the final sign you have lost the discussion.

On the machete bins there are some on here that will still argue they were a smart move.  :-[    

Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments

Reply #337 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Jacinta Allan was democratically elected to Parliament as the member for Bendigo East but became Premier as she was chosen unopposed as Leader of the Labor Party after Andrews stepped down. She wasnt elected as Premier Elect initially which I think is the point Shawny was trying to make.

Once again, all State or Commonwealth leader are elected/appointed by their parties.  That's the Westminster democratic process in accordance with all Australian constitutions and conventions.  Jess Wilson was elected Leader of the Opposition by the Parliamentary Liberal Party, not the Victorian electorate.  That doesn't mean that she's not the democratically elected Leader of the Opposition.

Of course, the Greens take their leadership one step further and all party members get to vote for the leader.

There's plenty to criticise about Jacinta Allan without falsely claiming that she's not the democratically elected premier.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments

Reply #338 –
Quote from: shawny – on
How many pages are we up to for the 'Red Trump' who runs a country on the other side of the world?  :-X Sorry DJC i know you get quite annoyed at any reference of the man but the irony is too much to ignore.

Off topic posts are the bane of a moderator's existence Shawny, but I'll let that one slide   :)


"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments

Reply #339 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Quote from: shawny – on
How many pages are we up to for the 'Red Trump' who runs a country on the other side of the world?  :-X Sorry DJC i know you get quite annoyed at any reference of the man but the irony is too much to ignore.

Off topic posts are the bane of a moderator's existence Shawny, but I'll let that one slide   :)

Isn't that an off topic post!

.....and this one.  :P

Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments

Reply #340 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: DJC – on


Off topic posts are the bane of a moderator's existence Shawny, but I'll let that one slide   :)

Isn't that an off topic post!

.....and this one.  :P

This one is too!

As you know Kruddler, the odd off topic post or two are fine, and can often help make a point or enliven a discussion.  It becomes a problem when the off topic posts take over the thread  :)
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments

Reply #341 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Jacinta Allan was democratically elected to Parliament as the member for Bendigo East but became Premier as she was chosen unopposed as Leader of the Labor Party after Andrews stepped down. She wasnt elected as Premier Elect initially which I think is the point Shawny was trying to make.

Once again, all State or Commonwealth leader are elected/appointed by their parties.  That's the Westminster democratic process in accordance with all Australian constitutions and conventions.  Jess Wilson was elected Leader of the Opposition by the Parliamentary Liberal Party, not the Victorian electorate.  That doesn't mean that she's not the democratically elected Leader of the Opposition.

Of course, the Greens take their leadership one step further and all party members get to vote for the leader.

There's plenty to criticise about Jacinta Allan without falsely claiming that she's not the democratically elected premier.
Thats part of what I said, yep its all Democratic but thats not what Shawny was arguing imho, Allan didnt enter the election as Premier and as I suggested a lot of voters often vote for the personalities/leaders rather than knowing too much about the policies.
 For all Andrews failings as Premier of which there were many, varied and sordid he was an excellent political tactician and salesman and while Labor still would have bolted in to win the election, Labor voters got something different than what they voted for with Allan steering the ship after Andrews did his job and made sure they were re-elected.

Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments

Reply #342 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Thats part of what I said, yep its all Democratic but thats not what Shawny was arguing imho, Allan didnt enter the election as Premier and as I suggested a lot of voters often vote for the personalities/leaders rather than knowing too much about the policies.
 For all Andrews failings as Premier of which there were many, varied and sordid he was an excellent political tactician and salesman and while Labor still would have bolted in to win the election, Labor voters got something different than what they voted for with Allan steering the ship after Andrews did his job and made sure they were re-elected.

Five out of the last ten Victorian Premiers became Premier without leading their party to an election. It's a common, routine practice that was even more common before Henry Bolte took a stranglehold on the job.  It's fairly regular at Commonwealth level too with at least a dozen PMs taking on the office of PM without leading their party to an election. The most recent are Fraser, Keating, Gillard, Rudd, Turnbull and Morrison.

Shawny can take heart from the fact the previous four Victorian Premiers who became Premier without leading their party to an election lost the next election.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball
 

Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments

Reply #343 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Thats part of what I said, yep its all Democratic but thats not what Shawny was arguing imho, Allan didnt enter the election as Premier and as I suggested a lot of voters often vote for the personalities/leaders rather than knowing too much about the policies.
If Andrews had lost his seat, we'd have a Premier nobody voted for because nobody votes for the Premier, regardless of which party forms power.

An interpretation of the wider meaning of a debate is fine, but it doesn't mean those getting involved can't be free to highlight factual errors. Taking offense isn't a defence for being called out for posting stuff that is blatantly incorrect, and the poster is not a victim of bullying or under a personal attack, such claims are just diversionary, an attempt to avoid debate.

If people do not debate stuff, it usually means they have no opinion, or no basis for an informed opinion, not that the point being ignored is right or wrong, non-debate is a neutral stance. It's completely counterfactual for some to claim that a point ignored is proof of validity.

Further, on the issue of the state politics, it's fine to talk about the mistakes, mismanagement and morality, but stick to the facts which are more than enough to debate without slathering it in a veneer of bullsh1t! As Paul Keating would say, there is no need to paint the turd, it's clearly already an obvious turd!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments

Reply #344 –
Quote from: shawny – on
How many pages are we up to for the 'Red Trump' who runs a country on the other side of the world?

For me, living in Victoria, I see the consequences of what our government (s) do everyday and have an understanding of the effect that it has on people - and I agree that it's bad and I'm looking hopefully for a viable alternative. 

In the US, I see the dismantling of government, disregard of the constitution, blatant corruption (including from the Pre$ident) democracy falling by the wayside, not treating people decently and no respect for society.  The cover ups on the Epstein files are an absolute disgrace - it is surely beyond politics that people (loose use of the word) need to be accountable for their actions, not matter who they are.  Lack of justice for migrants. The lack of compassion and kindness that is increasing (this is not unique to the US).  I struggle to see how the US is going recover from the destruction from 2020 (we won the election), the insurrection, pardons and denials of the seriousness of what happened on Jan6.  (Democrats are no angels with pardons!).  The US has a butterfly effect in many countries.

The global political situation is pretty stark.

I see hope in countries starting to work together without the US - we'll see how it all goes!