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Poll

Who is the best 5 bench players to go with the existing lineup below?

*** currently vacant
*****Backline group*****2 - Lachie Cowan
3 - Jesse Motlop
4 - Oliver Hollands
*****Midfield group*****5 - Adam Cerra
*****Forwards group*****6 - Zac Williams
*****Midfield group*****7 - Jagga Smith
8 - Lachie Fogarty
*****Midfield group*****9 - Patrick Cripps
*****Forwards group*****10 - Harry McKay
11 - Mitch McGovern
*****Forwards group*****12 - Ben Ainsworth
13 - Blake Acres
14 - Ollie Florent
15 - Billy Wilson
16 - Ben Camporeale
*****Forwards group*****17 - Brodie Kemp
*****Midfield group*****18 - Sam Walsh
*****Forwards group*****19 - Will Hayward
***20 - Elijah Hollands - currently not on our list
21 - Lucas Camporeale
*****Backline group*****22 - Harry O'Farrell
*****Backline group*****23 - Jacob Weitering
*****Backline group*****24 - Nick Newman
25 - Liam Reidy
*****Backline group*****26 - Nick Haynes
*****Midfield group*****27 - Marc Pittonet
28 - Harry Charleson
*****Midfield group*****29 - George Hewitt
30 - Jack Ison
31 - Campbell Chesser
32 - Matthew Carroll
33 - Lewis Young
34 - Rob Monahan
35 - Harry Dean
36 - Cooper Lord
37 - Jordan Boyd
***38 - Will White - currently not on our list
39 - Talor Byrne
40 - Hudson O'Keeffe
41 - Matt Duffy
*****Backline group*****42 - Adam Saad
*****Forwards group*****43 - Ashton Moir
44 - Francis Evans
45 - Flynn Young
46 - Matt Cottrell
Topic: Pick our team in parts - Part 4 - 5 on the bench (Read 1533 times) previous topic - next topic
Lods, marineblauw and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Pick our team in parts - Part 4 - 5 on the bench

Reply #15 –
Jack Silvagni was never clearly in everyone's best 23.  He was often the one that missed out, and Im one of the people who would select him more often than not.

Thing is, last year was arguably his best output for a season.  13 games, in which he was subbed early at least twice, and was influential in only about 2 of them.  He was otherwise very good, but not the difference.  He's joining a pretty defensive unit so I expect he will look good at the Saints, but I wonder how much of him looking like an elite defender, was as much to do with the players around him and how we defended as a team as it was him.   We certainly didnt get pummelled without him, and he played in our worst loss for the year before succumbing to injury (vs Port).
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Pick our team in parts - Part 4 - 5 on the bench

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on

Given TDK, Charlie and Jack were/are now classified as spuds/navy blue infidels and the players we have brought in are vastly superior you wouldnt be able to include the afore mentioned three in your best 23 for next season if they were still on the list and the new recruits were also available?

I don't think anyone is saying these players we lost were 'duds'
They were obviously best 23
All three would probably make most folks selctions.
They'd make mine.

But their 2025 form was sub par, except perhaps for Jack who showed some promise as a KPD....before he was injured ::)
So in determining whether we improve from 2025 to 2026 we don't look at their best, we look at what they gave us in 2025 and that gap, if it exists, isn't that large.

The whole list debate centres around the difference between 2025 and 2026
Whether we finish about the same, 11th, whether we drop...or progress.
Some think we'll slide based on the loss of the three amigos.
Some think we'll stay about the same.
Others see us progressing.

We don't know the future.
In a lot of respects the list won't be a determining factor....it will be a better run with injuries, how the new players gel, no issues like player mental health, no division, a totally committed group... and a big change in luck, which hasn't been our friend the last two years.

Can't see how they make your best team if you and others have said their loss would be negligible in effect and say we have a better improved team without them.
You can't have it both ways...if we are a better team without them why would you pick them in your best 23?
TDK isn't as a good a ruckman as Pittonet, HOk ,or Reidy, JSOS is slow and Injury prone and Charlie isnt productive enough with a poor attitude...that's what I have been reading. Surely they would be VFL players and backup only...

Re: Pick our team in parts - Part 4 - 5 on the bench

Reply #17 –
That's the whole point.
I'm sorry these guys are not there.
Fully fit they would be in everybody's best team.
They would enhance our side.
If we were doing this exercise and they were still on the list they get a game in most people's sides.

Why? Because the ground rules Kruddler laid down said they were "fully fit" (even O' Farrell is in the mix and he might not even play a game next year.)

I think some have forgotten the 'ground' rules for this List Management debate, and the key question.
"Higher ladder position in 2025 or 2026"
Some are having difficulty grasping why we won't slide.

That debate question spreads over a number of threads, is ongoing, and also applies here... Will we perform better in 2026 than we did in 2025 given the changes to the list?

And that debate centres around the three main players we have lost, and the players coming in through trade and draft.
Don't think Coleman Charlie 2023, think Charlie 2025.

Charlie's contribution 2023 would be near impossible to cover
Charlie 2025...not so much.
There is every chance they will blossom at their new clubs and regain their best form, but early indications for 2026 are not great with both Jack and Tom missing some significant pre-season. Jack in particular seems to have an ongoing injury issue...and I suspect for some time has had a fair bit on his plate, which may go some way to explaining his decision to move.

Tom has had the distraction of the big money move. Charlie and Jack have had ongoing injury problems, all these impacted on their form the past year.

And that's why if you ask me the question... Will we be better in 2026 than we were at 11th place in 2025?...I'm guessing, yes.
Will we finish higher than we did in 2023...I'm guessing, no....2027 for that target. ;)

Re: Pick our team in parts - Part 4 - 5 on the bench

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Lods – on
That's the whole point.
I'm sorry these guys are not there.
Fully fit they would be in everybody's best team.
They would enhance our side.
If we were doing this exercise and they were still on the list they get a game in most people's sides.

Why? Because the ground rules Kruddler laid down said they were "fully fit" (even O' Farrell is in the mix and he might not even play a game next year.)

I think some have forgotten the 'ground' rules for this List Management debate, and the key question.
"Higher ladder position in 2025 or 2026"
Some are having difficulty grasping why we won't slide.

That debate question spreads over a number of threads, is ongoing, and also applies here... Will we perform better in 2026 than we did in 2025 given the changes to the list?

And that debate centres around the three main players we have lost, and the players coming in through trade and draft.
Don't think Coleman Charlie 2023, think Charlie 2025.

Charlie's contribution 2023 would be near impossible to cover
Charlie 2025...not so much.
There is every chance they will blossom at their new clubs and regain their best form, but early indications for 2026 are not great with both Jack and Tom missing some significant pre-season. Jack in particular seems to have an ongoing injury issue...and I suspect for some time has had a fair bit on his plate, which may go some way to explaining his decision to move.

Tom has had the distraction of the big money move. Charlie and Jack have had ongoing injury problems, all these impacted on their form the past year.

And that's why if you ask me the question... Will we be better in 2026 than we were at 11th place in 2025?...I'm guessing, yes.
Will we finish higher than we did in 2023...I'm guessing, no....2027 for that target. ;)


So TDK, Charlie and Jack are in fact better players when fully fit than those we have acquired?
Im not thinking what a player did in what particular year or how fit they were last year or the year before, Im selecting on ability and the presumption those players will be fit at some stage in the future if our medical/fitness staff can get their act together.
If we are building a list based around fitness first then Sam Walsh would have to be a candidate to be traded out next season if he is injured again for a long period if thats now a large part of our list management decision making for the future?
If Harry McKay had another mental health episode and took a break would that also place him in the trade basket?...
Are you willing to trade out all our A grade talent on the basis they may never be fully fit and replace them with players with less ability..?

Re: Pick our team in parts - Part 4 - 5 on the bench

Reply #19 –
I just said similar in another thread.
All outgoing players are now no good.
All incoming players have never played a bad game or missed a game through injury.
Its hypocrisy.

Take them all at 'average' levels and go from there.
You'll come up with the same conclusion if you are honest.

Re: Pick our team in parts - Part 4 - 5 on the bench

Reply #20 –
You guys have gone completely off track. ::)

The original question was posed "Will we be better in 2026 than we were in 2025?"
You guys are saying ..No!
I'm saying....Yes ! because what these players delivered in 2025 can be more than covered by the current list.
That is the sole basis for all I'm arguing across multiple threads.
I think we're in better shape going forward than you seem to think.
But who knows how it will turn out.

It's not about the list long term.
It's not about past list management errors.
It's a comparison in years.
2025 vs 2026

If you want me to say we'll miss them, and at their best they are more talented than the player's we've brought in you're not going to get an argument.
But I'm not so sure about their future...that's a story to be written.

And just as a final point...Those players left of their own accord. We would have kept them if they wanted to stay. The reasons for some of those moves are obvious, some we'll find out about down the track.

Re: Pick our team in parts - Part 4 - 5 on the bench

Reply #21 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
I just said similar in another thread.
All outgoing players are now no good.
All incoming players have never played a bad game or missed a game through injury.
Its hypocrisy.

Take them all at 'average' levels and go from there.
You'll come up with the same conclusion if you are honest.
How can you measure a players Average output?

I.e.  Hayward?  His formline stacks up over 3 years.  Florent was sidelined by his coach, not his ability.  So not sure its fair to do that with him, and Ainsworth had a solid year. 

We are saying all these guys have to do is back up 2025 form, vs the outgoings 2025 form.  Thats 11 games without being subbed off injured for JSOS.

Charlie went bog average by key forward standards.  18 games for 32 goals.  1.8 goals a game.  Sure he kicked 27 behinds, but we wont miss those.  All we need is Kemp to chime in for 18 games and kick 30.  That will cover Charlie.  Hayward and Ainsworth might make up the rest, if Kemp falls short, and Skull is a wildcard here.  Played 5 games, kicked 3 goals.

TDK the ruckman is more of a unicorn than not.  Thing is, you yourself @kruddler  have stated that Pittonet shades him.  So if Pittonet Shades him, TDK's 2025 was a mixed bag, where he was generally good for half the season and then came back to the field.  Rucks are easier to cover, you just need a competitor.  I.e.  Is Cameron a better ruck than Grundy?  Probably not.  Cameron has played better footy than Grundy more often.  Collingwood didnt miss him.  Maybe we will have Pittonet finally have a consistent run.

JSOS.  I love the guy.  Is a competitor, hates being beaten.  Thing is, he played 13 games, and missed 2024 completely.  He was also not present for most of our best footy in 2023, and hasnt even played a final yet for us.  Are we really going to pine about that now? 

It reeks of agenda.  What happened to being measured?
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Pick our team in parts - Part 4 - 5 on the bench

Reply #22 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
I just said similar in another thread.
All outgoing players are now no good.
All incoming players have never played a bad game or missed a game through injury.
Its hypocrisy.

Take them all at 'average' levels and go from there.
You'll come up with the same conclusion if you are honest.

We're only to judge Charlie on this year but not Florent.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Pick our team in parts - Part 4 - 5 on the bench

Reply #23 –
See that's emotive nonsense that 'it's dud, out stars in'

No one ever said all players going out were duds
We lost some valuable players.
Even at their reduced output and injury most were best 23 and even Durdin and Elijah (who we still haven't lost for sure) were right up there.

No one ever said all players coming in never played a bad game.
Florent didn't have great year and he seemed to be out of favour...but he did have his best year in 2024 and has proven to be pretty durable.
All our new players have their limitations...and I suspect some strengths we haven't even considered yet.
Chesser is one that may surprise.

Tom, Jack and Charlie for various reasons all had their minds elsewhere during this year.
I have a greater appreciation for Jack's struggles given recent revelations.
When he did play he still gave 100%
Tom was made an offer he really 'couldn't refuse' to consider.
And who knows what was going on with Charlie.

What we're after and need is depth, versatility, role players and a committed group working together.
Time will tell how that plays out.

Re: Pick our team in parts - Part 4 - 5 on the bench

Reply #24 –
You said we are only judging on 2025.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Pick our team in parts - Part 4 - 5 on the bench

Reply #25 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
You said we are only judging on 2025.

I said the debate centred around whether we would improve stay the same or go backwards in 2026 compared to 2025.
And on that basis you can only judge on what was on display in 2025
Florent didn't have a great year compared to his previous year.
I don't think I've mentioned him much.
Defence wasn't really a concern...our issues stemmed more around entry to the 50 the ability to keep it there, and forward efficiency.

Anyway, we'll see how Ollie goes this year.

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/video/1941089/micd-up-ollie-florent-at-training?videoId=1941089&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1765440286001

Re: Pick our team in parts - Part 4 - 5 on the bench

Reply #26 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: madbluboy – on
You said we are only judging on 2025.

I said the debate centred around whether we would improve stay the same or go backwards in 2026 compared to 2025.
And on that basis you can only judge on what was on display in 2025
Florent didn't have a great year compared to his previous year.
I don't think I've mentioned him much.
Defence wasn't really a concern...our issues stemmed more around entry to the 50 the ability to keep it there, and forward efficiency.

Anyway, we'll see how Ollie goes this year.

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/video/1941089/micd-up-ollie-florent-at-training?videoId=1941089&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1765440286001

Ollie played as well as his coach allowed him to.  Inexplicable coaching from someone who seems out of their depth.

I think that Ollie will make quite an impression next season both on the field and with his energy and leadership at training.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball
 

Re: Pick our team in parts - Part 4 - 5 on the bench

Reply #27 –
Charlie was forced to come back early from surgery because Harry was too sad to play. No wonder he wanted out.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Pick our team in parts - Part 4 - 5 on the bench

Reply #28 –
We need to exist in a both/and space. Charlie Curnow is a super player, but we need to be like Hawthorn when Franklin left, somehow finding a way. It has been done before, and we have to do it again. Much the same as we need to emulate Richmond at the end of 2016, where they brought in a few B graders, stuck fat with the coach and made changes around him.

Re: Pick our team in parts - Part 4 - 5 on the bench

Reply #29 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: madbluboy – on
You said we are only judging on 2025.
Defence wasn't really a concern...our issues stemmed more around entry to the 50 the ability to keep it there, and forward efficiency.

Defence wasn't really a concern?

Lets here a non-Carlton based perspective....
https://www.zerohanger.com/every-afl-teams-backline-ranked-1-18-171600/6/
Quote
13 - Carlton
If it weren't for Jacob Weitering, the Blues would be much worse on the list.

The All-Australian defender not only held his own, but also assisted his teammates in their matchups.

Nick Haynes was shaky early but found his groove in the end and proved vital to the club's intercepting ability.

Ollie Hollands and Matt Carroll showed their skillset across half-back as the Blues' go-to ball users, while Adam Saad, despite playing 21 games, took a backwards seat.

The retired Sam Docherty and emerging Lachlan Cowan struggled with form and injury, contributing to the defensive woes, which were heightened when Mitch McGovern was in the backline.

Jack Silvagni and Lewis Young played 13 matches each, and the former will be sorely missed after joining St Kilda in the off-season.

Harry O'Farrell showed plenty, but will likely miss the majority of 2026 due to an ACL injury.

So perhaps others rate Jack more than we did.
Perhaps others see we are in a far worse position than we do.

If we have the 13th best defence, and defence is not our issue.....then this backs up what i've been saying that we are in for a long season.

But, some bloke who couldn't get a game at his previous club will change everything for us?
2025 form and all.