Carlton Supporters Club

Social Club => Blah-Blah Bar => Topic started by: Baggers on July 22, 2020, 07:31:26 PM

Title: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 22, 2020, 07:31:26 PM
I wanted to comment on something and found no thread that was suitable and thought perhaps we need a thread for general, random discussion... ones that cannot and do not fit under any other heading/thread.

Just wanted to say how much I was enjoying the Zac D and Ross L discussions on the AFL website. Really good value and deeply authentic communications between the two. Insightful.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 22, 2020, 09:02:24 PM
I wanted to comment on something and found no thread that was suitable and thought perhaps we need a thread for general, random discussion... ones that cannot and do not fit under any other heading/thread.

Just wanted to say how much I was enjoying the Zac D and Ross L discussions on the AFL website. Really good value and deeply authentic communications between the two. Insightful.
Havent seen it, will go and check it out.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 22, 2020, 09:53:15 PM
I wanted to comment on something and found no thread that was suitable and thought perhaps we need a thread for general, random discussion... ones that cannot and do not fit under any other heading/thread.

Just wanted to say how much I was enjoying the Zac D and Ross L discussions on the AFL website. Really good value and deeply authentic communications between the two. Insightful.
He's a good man Ross Lyon, often misjudged I reckon. Is young Zac still with the Blues?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 23, 2020, 07:43:02 AM
I hope this is worthy of this thread, but I have a question. What do people think is the next "style" of football going to look like? We went from the man on man in a position to things like Terry's Flood, Pagan's Paddock, Clarko's Cluster to now morphing into, in my view, glorified circle work. So whats next? Will it go back full circle? Will they drop 2 and go to 16 on the ground? Or is the Big M Little League style of 36 players chasing the agot here to stay?
Thoughts?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 23, 2020, 07:58:32 AM
After the recent success trialling 16 on the ground in other comps, I suspect 16 a side in inevitable. It was fine for VFA, it'll be fine for AFL.

My only question is, will that mean on 20 a side on match day, or will they increase the bench to 6? I suspect they'll increase the bench to 6, but two of the six will be substitutes not interchange. If that happens I think you'll find a shift in the selection mix.

I'd much rather see 16 a side, than some of the other more radical things they are unofficially fiddling with at the moment. Like the holding the ball rubbish.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on July 23, 2020, 08:51:05 AM
I wanted to comment on something and found no thread that was suitable and thought perhaps we need a thread for general, random discussion... ones that cannot and do not fit under any other heading/thread.

Just wanted to say how much I was enjoying the Zac D and Ross L discussions on the AFL website. Really good value and deeply authentic communications between the two. Insightful.

Baggers you could start a thread on a topic if a suitable one doesn't already exist?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 23, 2020, 08:56:21 AM
Baggers you could start a thread on a topic if a suitable one doesn't already exist?
But I like the idea of a thread where you can talk about anything and stray off topic without fear of persecution. :D  ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on July 23, 2020, 09:05:28 AM
16 a side BUT in such a fast paced game, it will place an immense strain on CHFs and CHBs alone.  Good thing?  Bad thing?  Got no idea.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on July 23, 2020, 09:15:09 AM
But I like the idea of a thread where you can talk about anything and stray off topic without fear of persecution. :D  ;)
Wouldn't the logical conclusion of that be that there would be only one thread on this site? Referencing any particular issue and following the debate would be much more difficult if not impossible ? 🤯
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 23, 2020, 09:19:00 AM
Wouldn't the logical conclusion of that be that there would be only one thread on this site? Referencing any particular issue and following the debate would be much more difficult if not impossible ? 🤯
Logic will not be tolerated here.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on July 23, 2020, 10:08:56 AM
While I don't mind a "whatever comes into your mind" type of thread as Cookie said the problem will be following a topic.

I was going to use the thread to mention that I think Nick Riewoldt is quickly becoming my favourite footy media guy. It sort of led on from Baggers initial post.
But already we've moved on to a different discussion regarding the future of the game.
Now I reckon both these topics  "Media and Future of the game" are worthy of their own thread and make following that discussion easier.
Not only that, it gives a greater opportunity to get into a topic in depth.

The question is ...What do we use a General Discussion thread for....I've seen them work quite well on other sites?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 23, 2020, 10:11:20 AM
Wouldn't the logical conclusion of that be that there would be only one thread on this site? Referencing any particular issue and following the debate would be much more difficult if not impossible ? 🤯

I reckon that if there isn't a thread already and one became apparent in this thread then it'd probably get a life of its own and subsequently its own thread. I guess this is a kind of experiment, a place for random thoughts or observations or comments that don't have an obvious home elsewhere.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 23, 2020, 10:22:58 AM
While I don't mind a "whatever comes into your mind" type of thread as Cookie said the problem will be following a topic.

I was going to use the thread to mention that I think Nick Riewoldt is quickly becoming my favourite footy media guy. It sort of led on from Baggers initial post.
But already we've moved on to a different discussion regarding the future of the game.
Now I reckon both these topics  "Media and Future of the game" are worthy of their own thread and make following that discussion easier.
Not only that, it gives a greater opportunity to get into a topic in depth.

The question is ...What do we use a General Discussion thread for....I've seen them work quite well on other sites?

Define general discussion please?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on July 23, 2020, 10:36:47 AM
Define general discussion please?

"What I did on the Holidays"
Basically just everyday thoughts. Random observations. "Has anyone else noticed....."
Things that wouldn't necessarily command a thread that would go for more than a page or two.



Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 23, 2020, 05:19:00 PM
"What I did on the Holidays"
Basically just everyday thoughts. Random observations. "Has anyone else noticed....."
Things that wouldn't necessarily command a thread that would go for more than a page or two.




Roger that
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 24, 2020, 08:45:34 AM
Anyone else catch Yokayi Footy & Eddie on the AFL's website?

Great stuff.

https://www.afl.com.au/video/468683/yokayi-footy-betts-hopes-smoking-ceremony-will-help-shake-loss?videoId=468683&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1595534400001
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 24, 2020, 09:08:29 AM
Anyone else catch Yokayi Footy & Eddie on the AFL's website?

Great stuff.

https://www.afl.com.au/video/468683/yokayi-footy-betts-hopes-smoking-ceremony-will-help-shake-loss?videoId=468683&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1595534400001

Awesome. Such a wonderful culture and IMO its just not taught and shared enough in our schools. I want to learn more about it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 25, 2020, 08:40:04 AM
I saw a video of Wild Cherry singing "Play that funky music white boy" for the first time this morning, I didnt realise they were were white!! I always thought that song was by an African American band.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 25, 2020, 09:04:30 AM
I saw a video of Wild Cherry singing "Play that funky music white boy" for the first time this morning, I didnt realise they were were white!! I always thought that song was by an African American band.

One of my favourite all time bands GTC (along with the Doobies, Chicago, Steely Dan, Journey, ELO, etc) and as a young radio jock in Whyalla SA it was one of the first songs I played. Rob Parissi founded Wild Cherry and is the lead singer/songwriter. Folks rocked up to their first concert and were shocked to see they were white boys (like when they first saw Elvis was white ...and the Righteous Bros. were white.. sorry, I'm getting carried away). They released about 4 or so albums, each one brilliant. Rob Parissi was a huge talent and still performs today and raises money for philanthropic causes.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 25, 2020, 09:34:33 AM
I saw a video of Wild Cherry singing "Play that funky music white boy" for the first time this morning, I didnt realise they were were white!! I always thought that song was by an African American band.

News to me too.....and the missus.

 :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 25, 2020, 10:40:32 AM
I saw a video of Wild Cherry singing "Play that funky music white boy" for the first time this morning, I didnt realise they were were white!! I always thought that song was by an African American band.
 
https://youtu.be/SFiv9M577a4
Just keep in mind, once you watch this video, the song will sound different forever more!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 25, 2020, 11:08:06 AM

https://youtu.be/SFiv9M577a4
Just keep in mind, once you watch this video, the song will sound different forever more!

And introduced by Helen Reddy!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 25, 2020, 12:47:28 PM
One of my favourite all time bands GTC (along with the Doobies, Chicago, Steely Dan, Journey, ELO, etc) and as a young radio jock in Whyalla SA it was one of the first songs I played. Rob Parissi founded Wild Cherry and is the lead singer/songwriter. Folks rocked up to their first concert and were shocked to see they were white boys (like when they first saw Elvis was white ...and the Righteous Bros. were white.. sorry, I'm getting carried away). They released about 4 or so albums, each one brilliant. Rob Parissi was a huge talent and still performs today and raises money for philanthropic causes.
Cheers for that, you learn something every day.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: RiverRat on July 25, 2020, 07:24:33 PM
I wanted to comment on something and found no thread that was suitable and thought perhaps we need a thread for general, random discussion... ones that cannot and do not fit under any other heading/thread.

Just wanted to say how much I was enjoying the Zac D and Ross L discussions on the AFL website. Really good value and deeply authentic communications between the two. Insightful.

You could also start a thread about pies you have enjoyed at the footy - could be plenty to offer during this period of abstinence.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 25, 2020, 07:29:32 PM
You could also start a thread about pies you have enjoyed at the footy - could be plenty to offer during this period of abstinence.

😂 😂 Ah, yes, the memories... they're just not the same at home in front of the teev. Can't wait for next season!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: RiverRat on July 25, 2020, 07:36:53 PM
😂 😂 Ah, yes, the memories... they're just not the same at home in front of the teev. Can't wait for next season!

I look forward to catching up IF Dan ever lets us go to the footy again.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 26, 2020, 01:15:02 PM
Anyone else's blood boil when you see these parasite hippy fwits giving coppers grief when they are trying to enforce covid rules? These coppers are saints, I'd see red and start swinging. I mean seriously, that silly mole who said to the copper who was arresting her "I dont consent to being arrested" and "I will sue you for armed kidnapping" ;D  ;D Did someone leave the asylum doors open? And today I watched an hour long video of a fwit truck driver who didnt have the Queensland border pass so he decided ihe hadnt committed a crime and drove off. He got pulled over again, gave the copper grief, reinforcements came, end result? Truck was unregistered, drivers licence was expired. He agreed to fill out a border pass online, got fined for the other offences, WTF was the point? The imbecile then posted on FB the whole thing which he recorded, lets just say the comments werent favourable ;D  ;D Is it me? Am I the fwit?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on July 26, 2020, 01:40:21 PM
Anyone else's blood boil when you see these parasite hippy fwits giving coppers grief when they are trying to enforce covid rules? These coppers are saints, I'd see red and start swinging. I mean seriously, that silly mole who said to the copper who was arresting her "I dont consent to being arrested" and "I will sue you for armed kidnapping" ;D  ;D Did someone leave the asylum doors open? And today I watched an hour long video of a fwit truck driver who didnt have the Queensland border pass so he decided ihe hadnt committed a crime and drove off. He got pulled over again, gave the copper grief, reinforcements came, end result? Truck was unregistered, drivers licence was expired. He agreed to fill out a border pass online, got fined for the other offences, WTF was the point? The imbecile then posted on FB the whole thing which he recorded, lets just say the comments werent favourable ;D  ;D Is it me? Am I the fwit?

It's not you...it's them.
Funny thing is these dills post their  'look at me defiance ' on facebook and then get absolutely slayed in the comments and end up having to take their 'idiocy' down.
Tolerance to these idiots will be pretty low as this thing continues.
They may be actually putting themselves at physical risk.
As one of the doctors said this week he'd like to take them on a stroll through an ICU section.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on July 26, 2020, 02:10:07 PM
I mean seriously, that silly mole who said to the copper who was arresting her "I dont consent to being arrested" and "I will sue you for armed kidnapping"

As I understand it, that smart a**e is facing multiple charges, not just fines
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 26, 2020, 03:08:45 PM
Anyone else's blood boil when you see these parasite hippy fwits giving coppers grief when they are trying to enforce covid rules? These coppers are saints, I'd see red and start swinging. I mean seriously, that silly mole who said to the copper who was arresting her "I dont consent to being arrested" and "I will sue you for armed kidnapping" ;D  ;D Did someone leave the asylum doors open? And today I watched an hour long video of a fwit truck driver who didnt have the Queensland border pass so he decided ihe hadnt committed a crime and drove off. He got pulled over again, gave the copper grief, reinforcements came, end result? Truck was unregistered, drivers licence was expired. He agreed to fill out a border pass online, got fined for the other offences, WTF was the point? The imbecile then posted on FB the whole thing which he recorded, lets just say the comments werent favourable ;D  ;D Is it me? Am I the fwit?

In regards to the bold....

Yes. You wasted 1 hour of your time watching it.  :P

Don't give them the time of day
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 26, 2020, 03:11:22 PM
In regards to the bold....

Yes. You wasted 1 hour of your time watching it.  :P

Don't give them the time of day

I always try and look at both sides of an argument to try and understand the point. I should have known there wouldnt be one, much like many of your posts :P  :P  ;)  ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 26, 2020, 04:24:11 PM
I always try and look at both sides of an argument to try and understand the point. I should have known there wouldnt be one, much like many of your posts :P  :P  ;)  ;)
One of us did nothing but complain about our boys yesterday.

One of us kept saying that everyone is jumping at shadows yesterday.

Do i need to remind you which one was which? Lets not talk about understanding. ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 26, 2020, 06:46:59 PM
One of us did nothing but complain about our boys yesterday.

One of us kept saying that everyone is jumping at shadows yesterday.

Do i need to remind you which one was which? Lets not talk about understanding. ;)
Nah that was me, guilty as charged, but we digress.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on July 27, 2020, 09:48:09 PM
I feel a bit sorry for all the nice Karens  :(
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 29, 2020, 08:10:18 AM
So what's the difference between the New Posts and New Replies button?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 29, 2020, 01:04:42 PM
So what's the difference between the New Posts and New Replies button?

I think 'new replies' are 'new posts' in threads you've posted in....as in they are replying in a thread you have posted in.

New posts are threads you have not posted in......i think.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on July 29, 2020, 01:13:28 PM
I think 'new replies' are 'new posts' in threads you've posted in....as in they are replying in a thread you have posted in.

New posts are threads you have not posted in......i think.

I think so too - I will try and verify later on when I have a bit more time.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 05, 2020, 04:12:00 PM
Question: Where do you thing the greatest hatred lies between supporters? For me, I hate the Cheats, always have always will. No one comes close for me. During the saga I was praying they'd wind them up and padlock the gates.
Having said that, in my experiences with other Bluebaggers and supporters of all the other clubs, the Haw - Geelong hatred is the fiercest I've witnessed. Ive been to a couple of Haw-Geel games over the years (due to mates I have) and that hatred is like nothing Ive seen.
Thoughts?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on August 05, 2020, 04:28:44 PM
Question: Where do you thing the greatest hatred lies between supporters? For me, I hate the Cheats, always have always will. No one comes close for me. During the saga I was praying they'd wind them up and padlock the gates.
Having said that, in my experiences with other Bluebaggers and supporters of all the other clubs, the Haw - Geelong hatred is the fiercest I've witnessed. Ive been to a couple of Haw-Geel games over the years (due to mates I have) and that hatred is like nothing Ive seen.
Thoughts?
"Hate"is probably the wrong word for me. I don't hate any of the following and would miss them terribly if they weren't  there to beat. It's the traditional rivals and successful clubs. On the top layer is Collingwood and Essendon and the second tier it's Richmond and Hawthorn.(Can't split them).
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 05, 2020, 04:51:20 PM
Question: Where do you thing the greatest hatred lies between supporters? For me, I hate the Cheats, always have always will. No one comes close for me. During the saga I was praying they'd wind them up and padlock the gates.
Having said that, in my experiences with other Bluebaggers and supporters of all the other clubs, the Haw - Geelong hatred is the fiercest I've witnessed. Ive been to a couple of Haw-Geel games over the years (due to mates I have) and that hatred is like nothing Ive seen.
Thoughts?
Hands down, it's CheatsFC and many things touched by a Sheedy for me.

Oddly for a Carlton man I don't hate the Filth that much, I probably dislike Nthmond 2nd.

But CheatsFC, nothing more than a bunch of lowbrow two-faced crap-stained shirttail Silverspoon wannabes. ;D

You know "Karen", well I'd stop to piss on "Karen" if she was on fire, but not for a CheatsFC supporter.

There is a reason their club colours match the 3rd Reich!
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRJbLbS5tROTNj5jqLYFTcUg61hWrHZUqeADw&usqp=CAU)
All kents and ar5eholes.

Particularly nasty haemorrhoids can be red and black!

I'd describe them as inbred, but that is offensive to inbred people.

I heard a rumor once Denis Leary wrote the song Asshole after being taken to a Filth vs CheatsFC game by a Filth supporting mate. We know Leary wasn't writing about the Filth because they ride buses and trains which don't park in handicapped spaces! ;)

One day I might tell you how I really feel! :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 05, 2020, 04:54:11 PM
Hatred...Essendon but we need them in the comp so we can watch them fail and rejoice no matter our own problems...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 05, 2020, 05:58:37 PM
Swans.  Essendon.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 05, 2020, 06:46:39 PM
Hands down, it's CheatsFC and many things touched by a Sheedy for me.
Same
Oddly for a Carlton man I don't hate the Filth that much, I probably dislike Nthmond 2nd.
Same Same. As a kid, I went to many Coll games with my mate and his folks so I respect Coll as opposed to hating them,
As for Rivalry, which is another thing in my book, there is no bigger rivalry than Car-Coll. Our two teams started rivalry in football way back. All the smaller club followed suit when they started to become big.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 05, 2020, 06:47:58 PM
Swans :o .  Essendon.
Really, why?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 05, 2020, 07:57:56 PM
Really, why?

REALLY ugly football, salary cap concessions, dubious trades ... I just don't like them GTC and the way they've managed the system to their advantage over the years. 

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 05, 2020, 08:42:02 PM
REALLY ugly football, salary cap concessions, dubious trades ... I just don't like them GTC and the way they've managed the system to their advantage over the years. 


Fair enough, although to be fair, they only used the system given to them by the AFL and I understand why they gave it to them (ie COLA). As for their trades, I'm sure they were ticked off by the AFL, like the Judd Visy deal was (that was as shifty as). As for the way they play, if our mob played like that for the last 10-15 years and made all the finals they did, I personally wouldn't complain. I don't mind Syd personally, love the standards they set for training and prep, all the stuff Roosy set up. Good culture. Im sure there were ratbags in amongst them, every club has them. I read somewhere than when Hannebury got to StK and saw the way they trained, he thought it was a joke compared to what he was used to.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on August 06, 2020, 06:13:05 PM
That explosion in Lebanon was horrific.
Currently the death toll is around 130 but you would have to think it will be many, many times that number.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 06, 2020, 06:30:32 PM
That explosion in Lebanon was horrific.
Currently the death toll is around 130 but you would have to think it will be many, many times that number.

That was insane, some of the footage emerging is unfarkenbelievable. It must have been horrific, watching a fire one minute, showered with debris the next. My heart goes out to those poor people, incompetence by the authorities once again. Another sorry case study for future engineering students, let hope everyone learns from it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 06, 2020, 06:49:42 PM
That was insane, some of the footage emerging is unfarkenbelievable. It must have been horrific, watching a fire one minute, showered with debris the next. My heart goes out to those poor people, incompetence by the authorities once again. Another sorry case study for future engineering students, let hope everyone learns from it.

2.5 tonnes in the Oklahoma bombing and remember what that did.  Beirut 2,750 tonnes.



Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on August 06, 2020, 07:13:34 PM
Heard today that there is many more times the amount in Beirut stored in Newcastle.  Not sure of its exact location in that city. ☠
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 06, 2020, 08:07:11 PM
Heard today that there is many more times the amount in Beirut stored in Newcastle.  Not sure of its exact location in that city. ☠
I'd hazard a guess (no pun intended) that the storage is heavily controlled and fortified as opposed to the ticking timebomb in Beirut
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 07, 2020, 07:58:56 AM
Hazmat is pretty strict in Australia, special licensing, heavy regulations, inspections, etc., etc.. Even so these incidents are not impossible, and it's nearly always human error, malicious intent rarely factors. At one location we keep relatively small quantities of powdered metals for 3D printing, each batch of any pyrolytic material has to be self-contained, have it's own locker in it's own explosion bay, in gas filled moisture barrier containers.

I read that in Beirut apparently someone had allowed fireworks to be stored in the same location/facility. I can't say it wouldn't happen, but it would be illegal here.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 07, 2020, 08:21:06 AM
Hazmat is pretty strict in Australia, special licensing, heavy regulations, inspections, etc., etc.. Even so these incidents are not impossible, and it's nearly always human error, malicious intent rarely factors. At one location we keep relatively small quantities of powdered metals for 3D printing, each batch of any pyrolytic material has to be self-contained, have it's own locker in it's own explosion bay, in gas filled moisture barrier containers.

I read that in Beirut apparently someone had allowed fireworks to be stored in the same location/facility. I can't say it wouldn't happen, but it would be illegal here.
Not a hope in hell it would happen here.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 07, 2020, 10:46:11 AM
Not a hope in hell it would happen here.
See today's reports, some dodgy Russian involvement seems to be a trigger in Beirut.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 07, 2020, 12:06:55 PM
See today's reports, some dodgy Russian involvement seems to be a trigger in Beirut.
Yeah just read it in the Hun, I still have full confidence that something like that (ie dodgy) wouldn't happen here, not impossible but very highly unlikely IMO.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 07, 2020, 01:12:07 PM
Yeah just read it in the Hun, I still have full confidence that something like that (ie dodgy) wouldn't happen here, not impossible but very highly unlikely IMO.
Who would have thought Putin would "accidentally" blow up a big exclusive chunk of of an ally like Beirut! :o

Where are those post COVID gas and oil supply lines, and who profits from ongoing disputes by selling munitions?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on August 18, 2020, 02:21:10 PM
Someone posted that the flight from Brisbane to Darwin is a surprising 3 hrs 45 mins.  It still amazes me how big Australia is - it takes over 5 hours to get out of Australia going to Singapore from Melbourne - Brisbane is only half way to Cairns etc.  No wonder there are plenty of tourists who don't quite get how long it takes to go anywhere.  It takes about 7 hours to drive from Melbourne to the North West corner of Vic!

A mate of mine was working in London and there was a Wallbies v Scotland game in Edinburgh, so he drove up on Friday and back on Sunday.  No one believed that he went - had to produce ticket stubs as evidence - because you couldn't possibly drive that far on a weekend - admittedly it is a fair drive even for Aussies for a weekend.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 18, 2020, 02:49:15 PM
A mate of mine was working in London and there was a Wallbies v Scotland game in Edinburgh, so he drove up on Friday and back on Sunday.  No one believed that he went - had to produce ticket stubs as evidence - because you couldn't possibly drive that far on a weekend - admittedly it is a fair drive even for Aussies for a weekend.
Yes, it's truly bizarre.

My wife travelled with me to the UK when our 1st child was born, the vast majority of her relatives are UK based so it was time for her to do the circuit of grans, aunts and cousins. I was staying in Birmingham for a convention at the BEC, Birmingham was good because it was central to her family, some in Bath/Cardiff area and others over at Ipswich. When the hire company delivered the car to the hotel, the staff couldn't believe she was going to drive all that way with a Wee Bairn all by herself just for the day. They thought she should go for at least a few days or maybe even a week. It was just 2hrs in either direction, like a circuit of Port Phillip Bay from Portsea to Geelong!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 18, 2020, 02:58:38 PM
Yes, it's truly bizarre.

My wife travelled with me to the UK when our 1st child was born, the vast majority of her relatives are UK based so it was time for her to do the circuit of grans, aunts and cousins. I was staying in Birmingham for a convention at the BEC, Birmingham was good because it was central to her family, some in Bath/Cardiff area and others over at Ipswich. When the hire company delivered the car to the hotel, the staff couldn't believe she was going to drive all that way with a Wee Bairn all by herself just for the day. They thought she should go for at least a few days or maybe even a week. It was just 2hrs in either direction, like a circuit of Port Phillip Bay from Portsea to Geelong!
Italians think we are mad how far we drive to go to places. Italy is roughly the size of Victoria (sq km wise).
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 18, 2020, 03:31:20 PM
Italians think we are mad how far we drive to go to places. Italy is roughly the size of Victoria (sq km wise).
Yeah, got to be very careful of those map projections.

I don't know how many times I've had work associates tell me they are going to NZ, usually to arrive in Wellington, spend the day and then drive from Wellington to Auckland leaving at the end of the next business day. On a world map or globe it looks like Melb to Albury, 3 ~ 4 hrs, but it's more like Melb to Canberra and takes about 7hrs.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on August 18, 2020, 04:06:03 PM
Takes forever to drive anywhere in NZ, but because you go through every town, there are some pretty cool places you can pop into.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on August 18, 2020, 04:15:11 PM
Takes forever to drive anywhere in NZ, but because you go through every town, there are some pretty cool places you can pop into.

Loved driving in the South Island but found the traffic in the North Island very frustrating.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on August 18, 2020, 04:22:15 PM
What I found funny was how rental car companies don't allow cars on the ferry between islands, so you need to drop the car off at one side and pick up a new one on the other. 

We had one of the roughest crossings from Wellington to Pickton (?), they were line ball as to whether they would cancel it or not.  We had a coffee before getting to the ferry and the locals suggested a locally made ginger tablet.  My wife took one, we gave one to our then 2yo, but I said I'd be right.  I was only just right!  Cutlery and crockery was going everywhere from the food places and I took shelter a couple of decks lower, sucking on ice cubes, while our son slept through it all, had no idea what went on!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on August 18, 2020, 06:31:22 PM
Yeah, got to be very careful of those map projections.

I don't know how many times I've had work associates tell me they are going to NZ, usually to arrive in Wellington, spend the day and then drive from Wellington to Auckland leaving at the end of the next business day. On a world map or globe it looks like Melb to Albury, 3 ~ 4 hrs, but it's more like Melb to Canberra and takes about 7hrs.

7 hours is full on! I did this drive in early 2015 from Wellington to Auckland on my Pat Malone and it took about 8 1/2 hours (I do Melbourne to Canberra in about 6 1/2 hrs) and I can assure you I was not conservative with the accelerator... no 110kmph zones, nothing over 100. Absolutely amazing scenery. Just as well as I was into the scenery and amazing variety of landscapes because it's mostly single lanes which really slows you down!!! However, the Kiwis do something that most of us don't ...if they're slowing up traffic -- towing a caravan etc -- they will actually pull over to allow traffic to pass. Well mannered drivers for sure.

I went up highway (**cough**giggle**) 1 and 32 on the way up and came back 1 all the way and stayed a night in Taupo (next to Lake Taupo which is stunning... not far from Rotorua).

On the South Island Mrs Baggers and I did the drive from Picton to Lake Tekapo. Magnificent... drove through the partial rebuild of Christchurch -- 2015 -- and stayed the night and yep, big shake woke us late that night though it might have been... nuh, won't go there. Such a pretty city, straight out of England!!!. Lake Tekapo is a mesmerising colour - brilliant turquoise.

I would live in Picton in a heartbeat or Wellington if it didn't shake so damn much.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 18, 2020, 06:57:06 PM
Italians think we are mad how far we drive to go to places. Italy is roughly the size of Victoria (sq km wise).

Nice place ... did most of Europe by Eurail.  Very hospitable to a wide eyed 20 year old on his first journey.  $320 for a (literal) round the world ticket
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 18, 2020, 08:39:25 PM
7 hours is full on! I did this drive in early 2015 from Wellington to Auckland on my Pat Malone and it took about 8 1/2 hours (I do Melbourne to Canberra in about 6 1/2 hrs) and I can assure you I was not conservative with the accelerator...
Back in the 80s and 90s, my crazy cousin used to do Melb Syd in 6.5 hrs in his truck, 40t, $1.50-$1.60 all the way. Hair raising stuff and lawless in those days. Thankfully, the interstate trucking industry is alot more under control now.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 18, 2020, 08:41:22 PM
Nice place ... did most of Europe by Eurail.  Very hospitable to a wide eyed 20 year old on his first journey.  $320 for a (literal) round the world ticket
Me and the Mrs and have done 3 trips now, driven all around Italy, Luxembourg and France, love driving there.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 18, 2020, 09:10:30 PM
7 hours is full on! I did this drive in early 2015 from Wellington to Auckland on my Pat Malone and it took about 8 1/2 hours (I do Melbourne to Canberra in about 6 1/2 hrs) and I can assure you I was not conservative with the accelerator...
Yes, for work I've done that drive many times, I had to travel to a lot of places all over NZ and in-between like Levin, Palmerston, Hamilton, Rotorua, Nelson, Napier, New Plymouth, etc., etc.. using SH1(The Desert Road), SH3(West Coast) or SH2 and SH5(East Coast). It's all well worth a visit I recommend it to anybody and I find everybody very friendly, if not a little odd in places.

Luckily being for work I didn't have to pay, and I stayed at some fairly flash accommodation around Taupo, Turangi, etc., if I was staying across the ditch for two weeks I  tried to be in that there at the weekend to find a fishing lodge for the weekend. In the end the owners of the company worked out all my NZ trips were two weeks long with one week of meetings! Actually truth be known they didn't care, they are great people to work for and they know travelling for work can be a bastard so they encourage tourism and a bit a free time while travelling, I'm so lucky I've seen more of the planet than some airline pilots!

I've only been through Picton on the way to Nelson, never stayed there, and further south around the coast Nelson is pretty. But I did see large parts of Fjordland down are Milford Sound.

It use to be cost effective to hire a car, drive and stay, time was never an issue. But over the years as accommodation started getting more and more expensive I found it was cheaper to fly in small aircraft all over the South Island, not the ATRs or Bombardiers, but the small 10 or 20 seat planes like the Pilatus PC12, Jetstream 31 or even a Piper Twin that held 5 or 6 of us. I'm afraid compared to home, and out of necessity, they've got super regional airlines in NZ, make Australia's look rubbish in terms of scheduling and price, but it's a bit hilly over there and when the roads a closed due to snow or volcanoes you still have to get around. Seriously you can hop through three or four of those small towns in a day, a lot of them have decentralised industries. It's just super flying just barely over the snow capped refrigerators out the back of Christchurch, you feel like a fighter pilot, refrigerators is what the locals call the Southern Alps.

If you like Picton and ever find yourself back over that way head down and have a look at Akaroa, although I haven't been to that region since the big shake. Crazy beautiful areas, you can be in a log cabin 30 metres off the ocean wave front and have a trout laden fresh water stream flowing right past your front door with trout in it!

Way up North is nice as well, green grass to the ocean's edge around areas like the Bay of Islands,

I was driving the Desert Road once years ago and had to detour because Ruapehu had got a bit cranky and dropped a rock the size of the school bus across SH1 closing it for three days, the News reports showed dozens or hundreds of rocks the size of VW's falling on or around the the road which as you know is a hell of a strong throwing arm for a Kiwi, most of them are use to playing cricket on postage stamps. I was also very lucky down south once, I was in the Riccarton Mall grabbing a bite of lunch before a meeting near the Christchurch airport and not 3 minutes after I left the carpark there was a huge shake and the roof collapsed killing a bunch of people, in the car driving to the meeting I didn't even notice the quake!

I loved travelling around NZ, but since the big shake work won't let me go there anymore, it's OOB!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on August 19, 2020, 09:22:33 AM
Yes, for work I've done that drive many times, I had to travel to a lot of places all over NZ and in-between like Levin, Palmerston, Hamilton, Rotorua, Nelson, Napier, New Plymouth, etc., etc.. using SH1(The Desert Road), SH3(West Coast) or SH2 and SH5(East Coast). It's all well worth a visit I recommend it to anybody and I find everybody very friendly, if not a little odd in places.

Luckily being for work I didn't have to pay, and I stayed at some fairly flash accommodation around Taupo, Turangi, etc., if I was staying across the ditch for two weeks I  tried to be in that there at the weekend to find a fishing lodge for the weekend. In the end the owners of the company worked out all my NZ trips were two weeks long with one week of meetings! Actually truth be known they didn't care, they are great people to work for and they know travelling for work can be a bastard so they encourage tourism and a bit a free time while travelling, I'm so lucky I've seen more of the planet than some airline pilots!

I've only been through Picton on the way to Nelson, never stayed there, and further south around the coast Nelson is pretty. But I did see large parts of Fjordland down are Milford Sound.

It use to be cost effective to hire a car, drive and stay, time was never an issue. But over the years as accommodation started getting more and more expensive I found it was cheaper to fly in small aircraft all over the South Island, not the ATRs or Bombardiers, but the small 10 or 20 seat planes like the Pilatus PC12, Jetstream 31 or even a Piper Twin that held 5 or 6 of us. I'm afraid compared to home, and out of necessity, they've got super regional airlines in NZ, make Australia's look rubbish in terms of scheduling and price, but it's a bit hilly over there and when the roads a closed due to snow or volcanoes you still have to get around. Seriously you can hop through three or four of those small towns in a day, a lot of them have decentralised industries. It's just super flying just barely over the snow capped refrigerators out the back of Christchurch, you feel like a fighter pilot, refrigerators is what the locals call the Southern Alps.

If you like Picton and ever find yourself back over that way head down and have a look at Akaroa, although I haven't been to that region since the big shake. Crazy beautiful areas, you can be in a log cabin 30 metres off the ocean wave front and have a trout laden fresh water stream flowing right past your front door with trout in it!

Way up North is nice as well, green grass to the ocean's edge around areas like the Bay of Islands,

I was driving the Desert Road once years ago and had to detour because Ruapehu had got a bit cranky and dropped a rock the size of the school bus across SH1 closing it for three days, the News reports showed dozens or hundreds of rocks the size of VW's falling on or around the the road which as you know is a hell of a strong throwing arm for a Kiwi, most of them are use to playing cricket on postage stamps. I was also very lucky down south once, I was in the Riccarton Mall grabbing a bite of lunch before a meeting near the Christchurch airport and not 3 minutes after I left the carpark there was a huge shake and the roof collapsed killing a bunch of people, in the car driving to the meeting I didn't even notice the quake!

I loved travelling around NZ, but since the big shake work won't let me go there anymore, it's OOB!

Ripper read, Spotted One. Sheesh, I related so much to many of your observations, especially light air travel which, as you say, craps all over our light air travel here in Oz.

Loved the bit about the desert road... I was going to mention that as well. Now folks when they hear us refer to a desert in the middle of the North Island of NZ must think we're nuts (well, there're plenty who no doubt think that anyway  ;D ). But it aint a desert like you'd think... just lots of nothing and low growing shrubbery, but the skyline in parts is snow capped mountains!

I also loved the Interislander ferry from Wellington to Picton (and return of course). Probably did the trip a dozen times when time permitted which takes about 3 1/2 hours one way - if we didn't have the time we flew on one of those single row either side (10 - 12 passengers tops, jet propellor jobs from Wellington to Blenheim over the Cook Strait). We were very lucky in that the seas were mostly well behaved when we sailed and never had it as bad as poor old Dodge experienced. We encountered some moderately rough seas once but the ferry's stabilizers seemed to handle it pretty well.

Oh, and on a footy note, we went and saw the Aints BlueBaggers game at Westpac Statium in Wellington. We won, the hard way and my one vivid memory from the game was Mrs Baggers saying to me at half time, 'Who is that number 4 for us... gee he's useless!' Yep, Gibbs had a first half to forget but then the whole side was asleep, we woke up in the 2nd half. Loads more BlueBagger supporters there than Aints supporters.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 19, 2020, 09:41:51 AM
Your wife was a good judge Baggers ... :))
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on October 18, 2020, 10:52:32 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/17/jacinda-arderns-labour-party-set-for-victory-in-new-zealand-election

We could learn a thing or two from our neighbours across the ditch.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on October 18, 2020, 01:58:26 PM
We could learn a thing or two from our neighbours across the ditch.

Yes, those Kiwis are a progressive lot.

It will be interesting to see the outcomes of the two referendums.  Polls suggested that the euthanasia referendum would get up but the cannabis one would fail.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on October 18, 2020, 02:11:31 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/17/jacinda-arderns-labour-party-set-for-victory-in-new-zealand-election

We could learn a thing or two from our neighbours across the ditch.

Yep, some of them even smuggled themselves into Melbourne.  😁
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Blues15 on October 18, 2020, 02:51:40 PM
Yep, some of them even smuggled themselves into Melbourne.  😁

Not sure why you would want to 😆
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on October 19, 2020, 09:27:11 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/17/jacinda-arderns-labour-party-set-for-victory-in-new-zealand-election

We could learn a thing or two from our neighbours across the ditch.

They know nothing about football. :D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 19, 2020, 10:52:46 AM
They know nothing about football. :D
They were no good at lawn bowls either till the Chappells showed them how its done...😎
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on October 29, 2020, 08:16:13 AM
After it seems turning some of the boys on The Block to jelly, it looks like Bec Judd has developed the Bubble Trouble as highlighted by many online critics;

Def. Bubble Trouble (abbrv. BT)
Bubble Trouble, when opinions and statements begin to reflect an insular and introspective point of view, mostly drawn from a small circular referenced peer group, that are unrelated and unrepresentative of the wider community. Other signs of Bubble Trouble include. excessively attending Polo events, continually talking up the real-estate market, correcting expert facts with personal opinion, dressing to a high standard to drop the kids off at school, managing to make everyone around you feel uncomfortable, only having two dress modes lux formal and lux active and listing professional influencer as a career.

If that is all the public have to complain about, then I doubt Bec has too many worries.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on November 26, 2020, 11:54:10 AM
I light of this incident and others like it;

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/he-had-everything-to-live-for-young-tradie-killed-in-stabbing-outside-seaford-train-station-20201126-p56i2x.html

I do not get the governments priorities, ignoring politics there is a bipartisan failure of government to ensure the criminals in such circumstances are caught. Fair enough, put money into prevention, but capturing many criminals is also a great preventative!

The governments roll out Full HD Super Cameras to fine you for touching your phone charger at a stop light, and use cameras to track suspected COVID spreaders or border crossing terrorists. But the killers of a kid in a train station car-park, one that should be staffed and attended by PSOs, aren't observed and the police beg them to surrender!

And don't give me the liberties or economic argument stuff, the cost and impact is trivial. In fact they government do not even have to pay directly for this stuff, they can just mandate that public and commercial facilities comply with regulations!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on November 26, 2020, 12:53:26 PM
Half the problem will be the judicial system who'll do next to nothing when they front court.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on November 26, 2020, 12:55:38 PM
Half the problem will be the judicial system who'll do next to nothing when they front court.
The family might/do tend to get a bigger grilling from the Victims of Crime Compensation tribunal, than the perpetrators get from the courts!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 26, 2020, 01:00:45 PM
The family might/do tend to get a bigger grilling from the Victims of Crime Compensation tribunal, than the perpetrators get from the courts!

To busy paying $4000 a trip to fly some peanut around the globe on a RAF jet drumming up business (albeit federal gov) and $220M in the upgrade of Sterile Stadium. Mean while, back at the ranch.. The imbeciles know no bounds. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on November 26, 2020, 01:08:57 PM
Frankston is pretty well covered by monitored CCTV:

https://www.frankston.vic.gov.au/Our_Community/Community_Safety/Security_Camera_Program_CCTV

Add to that the private CCTV that the police can access if required.

I reckon that the police would have footage of the incident but will need more information to identify the perpetrators.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 26, 2020, 01:10:09 PM
After it seems turning some of the boys on The Block to jelly, it looks like Bec Judd has developed the Bubble Trouble as highlighted by many online critics;

Def. Bubble Trouble (abbrv. BT)
Bubble Trouble, when opinions and statements begin to reflect an insular and introspective point of view, mostly drawn from a small circular referenced peer group, that are unrelated and unrepresentative of the wider community. Other signs of Bubble Trouble include. excessively attending Polo events, continually talking up the real-estate market, correcting expert facts with personal opinion, dressing to a high standard to drop the kids off at school, managing to make everyone around you feel uncomfortable, only having two dress modes lux formal and lux active and listing professional influencer as a career.

If that is all the public have to complain about, then I doubt Bec has too many worries.
Bec doesn't have that ability to deal with people from all walks of life and lacks humility. Worrying about dust from bushfires in the pool when people were losing their homes is an example..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on November 26, 2020, 01:12:32 PM
To busy paying $4000 a trip to fly some peanut around the globe on a RAF jet drumming up business (albeit federal gov) and $220M in the upgrade of Sterile Stadium. Mean while, back at the ranch.. The imbeciles know no bounds. 
That's $4000 / hour from the Feds for Matisse Cormann to apply for a job he has almost zero chance of winning! ;)

However, I'm not so upset about that, because I can't be a hypocrite and whack the Feds or State about dodgy China dependant dealings, then refuse them the very chance of gaining some leverage in other markets no matter how slim of a chance it may be! $4000/hr isn't much when you are talking about gaining influence in markets with an extra 6 or 9 zeroes on the end!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 01, 2020, 11:09:07 AM
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/taylor-sacked-by-swans-after-assaulting-former-girlfriend-20201130-p56j6t.html
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 01, 2020, 11:18:35 AM
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-news-2020-bryce-gibbs-interview-carlton-leadership-group-2007-chris-judd-greats-with-garby-podcast/news-story/ae4153569dbd574fa472092798df50ec
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 01, 2020, 11:19:39 AM
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2021-adelaide-crows-training-camp-gold-coast-bryce-gibbs-sas-cult-crows-saga/news-story/0b08df135a4e7c63a5c7b2b416c4e742

Admittedly not all that revealing, but worth a couple of  minutes of your time IMO.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 01, 2020, 12:10:34 PM
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2021-adelaide-crows-training-camp-gold-coast-bryce-gibbs-sas-cult-crows-saga/news-story/0b08df135a4e7c63a5c7b2b416c4e742

Admittedly not all that revealing, but worth a couple of  minutes of your time IMO.
Anybody who has been through these training scenarios knows they are a "Make or Break" proposition, even the well run ones, and there is no guarantee you won't break the "A-Graders" of your team in the process.

Why the feck would you do that in an AFL environment?

I see it more as an attempt to overcome shortfall in training, coaching and management regimes, a lazy solution to a tough problem.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 01, 2020, 12:21:09 PM
.....................................................
I see it more as an attempt to overcome shortfall in training, coaching and management regimes, a lazy solution to a tough problem.

Interesting theory, and quite plausible IMO.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 10, 2020, 07:09:54 PM
https://theconversation.com/so-much-for-consensus-morrison-governments-industrial-relations-bill-is-a-business-wish-list-151668
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 10, 2020, 07:20:28 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/10/food-delivery-riders-keep-dying
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 10, 2020, 09:29:38 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/10/food-delivery-riders-keep-dying

Can i offer a suggestion.

If you are going to post a link, perhaps include a paragraph explaining what the hell it is about....or why you think its worth posting and being brought up for discussion.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 10, 2020, 11:42:47 PM
Both good reads.

Libs up to no good, and how Uber has ruined employee rights.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 14, 2020, 10:32:50 AM
https://theconversation.com/oregon-just-decriminalized-all-drugs-heres-why-voters-passed-this-groundbreaking-reform-150806
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 14, 2020, 10:50:13 AM
https://theconversation.com/oregon-just-decriminalized-all-drugs-heres-why-voters-passed-this-groundbreaking-reform-150806

Thank you, Pauly. Good read. We're finally growing up... well, in some areas!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 14, 2020, 04:51:28 PM
https://theconversation.com/oregon-just-decriminalized-all-drugs-heres-why-voters-passed-this-groundbreaking-reform-150806
Call me old fashioned, naive, uneducated, whatever, I wouldn't support that no matter what arguments are put up.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 14, 2020, 05:34:14 PM
Call me old fashioned, naive, uneducated, whatever, I wouldn't support that no matter what arguments are put up.

Nothing wrong with your position.

Portugal did this to great success and now they sort out people with drug addiction in mental health spaces.

Perhaps they are more successful at rehabilitation by removing the seedy stigma and possibly make it safer to actually do drugs.

I think we who oppose these laws get swept up in this becoming socially acceptable which is potentially a different case. 


I stated this and read the article second.  Note the language.  Rates of overdose.  They mention use of cocaine but I think data can be cherry picked to suit an agenda here.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 14, 2020, 05:43:47 PM
Call me old fashioned, naive, uneducated, whatever, I wouldn't support that no matter what arguments are put up.

People can turn just about anything into a substance of abuse, if they are so predisposed : prescription drugs, illicit drugs, grog, tobacco, petrol, glue, you name it. Whilst I am fully supportive of this move, little will change until we address the core issues of why people abuse things in the first place. This, in my view, taps into several aspects of life and society in general : income, education, support etc. I'm not a fan of laying all the blame on the individual, which seems an extremely easy and lazy position to take when such issues are discussed. These are massive problems, and will never be solved unless we all participate in solving them, rather than isolating and finger pointing.

I'm not suggesting you're doing these things, just to be clear.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on December 14, 2020, 06:02:34 PM
Call me old fashioned, naive, uneducated, whatever, I wouldn't support that no matter what arguments are put up.

Call me in total agreement
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 14, 2020, 06:43:52 PM
People can turn just about anything into a substance of abuse, if they are so predisposed : prescription drugs, illicit drugs, grog, tobacco, petrol, glue, you name it. Whilst I am fully supportive of this move, little will change until we address the core issues of why people abuse things in the first place. This, in my view, taps into several aspects of life and society in general : income, education, support etc. I'm not a fan of laying all the blame on the individual, which seems an extremely easy and lazy position to take when such issues are discussed. These are massive problems, and will never be solved unless we all participate in solving them, rather than isolating and finger pointing.

I'm not suggesting you're doing these things, just to be clear.

That perspective is spot on Pauly but is a long way off in terms of social acceptance. So much easier to demonize/scapegoat one person than think about what made them that way and addressing that.

To give some perspective, briefly. I've worked with addicts, including incarcerated criminals - never did I encounter one of them, male or female, who hadn't experienced physical, psychological or sexual abuse as a child... not one.

Absolutely correct to focus attention on the 'why' of what drives folks to addictions/psychological escape whether they be illicit substances or not, and addressing that on a major scale. How many folks need to 'escape' and find it in a bottle, smoke, injection, sex, shopping, gambling, pill... and so on?

An interesting fact is that of all the drugs about the place just about the best one for removing inhibition is ...alcohol, ice is probably the worst. Ask just about any battered/beaten victim of domestic violence, for one example, what precipitated the crime... grog, combined with an angry person.

Once you legalize any mind-altering substance at least it affords you the opportunity to manage/track and help that person. Legalizing is not a panacea, but it is an approach that at least helps us to begin to understand the larger implications and issues around mental health issues. We'll find better ways to manage the legalization so the community is minimally impacted in time but the change of mindset toward why an individual needs drugs must happen for there to be understanding and healing.

Sorry for any waffling, but this is a subject very close to my heart for many reasons.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 14, 2020, 07:06:27 PM
Nice post Baggers

https://theconversation.com/a-mental-disorder-not-a-personal-failure-why-now-is-the-time-for-australia-to-rethink-addiction-151686
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 14, 2020, 08:52:31 PM
Call me old fashioned, naive, uneducated, whatever, I wouldn't support that no matter what arguments are put up.
I've never touched an illegal drug in my life, but i wouldn't be so quick to write it off.

There are large benefits to doing that, that are not immediately obvious.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 14, 2020, 09:03:55 PM
Nice post Baggers

https://theconversation.com/a-mental-disorder-not-a-personal-failure-why-now-is-the-time-for-australia-to-rethink-addiction-151686


Ripper article. Thank you, Pauly.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 14, 2020, 10:24:18 PM
On a side note, turning point and Easternhealth did a mini documentary series on sbs or ABC and you can watch it.  Its called addicted Australia.

We get introduced to a heroin addict named rueben.  Rueben tells us a little about himself at one point.  Basically he was a store manager once.  Then the place got robbed and that was the end of that job.  Ptsd meant he couldn't return.  Became reclusive.   Drugs were an escape, and then they started to cripple him.  They became the reason he couldn't reconnect after being the escape.  Powerful stuff.

4 episodes on sbs. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on December 14, 2020, 11:49:10 PM
I can't stand drugs.  My worst experience was riding the tram home to Kew on day, and there was a young kid (couldn't have been older than 13) and he was inhaling fumes out of a bag from a can of spray paint.                 

That was truly frightening and not much shocks me anymore after witnessing that episode.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Macca37 on December 15, 2020, 03:48:05 AM
If a member of my family were hit and injured by a driver affected by drugs, I just can't imagine my saying "But on a positive note, the driver was taking drugs because they had had a bad upbringing, so that will make you feel better."

There have always been people affected by having a bad upbringing, but these days the pendulum has swung too far from the individual accepting responsibility, to society in general being held to account for their problems

Where will it end if we keep pushing for drugs to be legalised and at the same time relieve people of responsibility for their actions?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 15, 2020, 08:31:31 PM
I can't stand drugs.  My worst experience was riding the tram home to Kew on day, and there was a young kid (couldn't have been older than 13) and he was inhaling fumes out of a bag from a can of spray paint.                 

That was truly frightening and not much shocks me anymore after witnessing that episode.
That's called 'chroming'.

I saw a similar thing on a packed train once. The guy doing it was maybe 17. Had paint all over his face while continuing to huff into his paper bag.

Another bloke, early 20's nicely dressed started up a convo with him. Gave him the whole spiel about how its no good for you and you need to turn your life around. Asking him to repeat stuff he'd just been told, asked him to repeat his name back to make sure the numpty was taking it all in. He even went as far to grab some new mangoes he'd just purchased from out of his backpack to give to this guy to help him get his life in order. The 'chromer' nodded his head, said all the right things, remembered the guys name and everything, agreed he'll stop etc etc. The smartly dressed guy got off the train first, i gave him a nod and smile of approval for his efforts and off he went.
No sooner than when his first foot stepped off the train, the chromer was huffing again like nothing had happened.

My head just dropped.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on December 15, 2020, 09:50:14 PM
I knew what it was called ... I owned a hardware store at the time.

I placed a ban on all "kids" buying them without parental presence.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on December 16, 2020, 12:12:35 AM
If a member of my family were hit and injured by a driver affected by drugs, I just can't imagine my saying "But on a positive note, the driver was taking drugs because they had had a bad upbringing, so that will make you feel better."

There have always been people affected by having a bad upbringing, but these days the pendulum has swung too far from the individual accepting responsibility, to society in general being held to account for their problems

Where will it end if we keep pushing for drugs to be legalised and at the same time relieve people of responsibility for their actions?

You’ve expressed perfectly my feelings on the subject, thank you.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Professer E on December 16, 2020, 08:25:13 AM
Petrol sniffing in the outback regions is just as destructive.   Whole communities annihilated by that crap.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 16, 2020, 09:36:11 AM
I dont think you guys are on the same page with respect to whats happening here and although you mention some of the risks the data shows decrease in these behaviors with decriminalisation (its not the same as legalisation) and not an increase. 

Im on the fence because often the arguments get skewed one way or the other and data is doctored but locking people up for using creates a cycle thats harder to break and ultimately drugs of dependence i think is more about people than drugs and we need to focus on that.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on December 16, 2020, 10:33:14 AM
Don’t get me wrong Thry, I also tend to agree with you... but personal responsibility is a must.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 16, 2020, 03:36:08 PM
My sons mate is a paramedic and has been attacked twice by ice affected low lifes who were high, he is a big lad but isnt allowed to defend himself and had to wait till police arrive. Similar story with my daughter who is a nurse who was attacked along with other staff by a nutter who was off his face and had been brought in by the ambos with some broken limbs, he wasnt feeling any of his injuries but proceeded to throw stuff around and belt into anyone who got in his road.
Its a similar story every other night with our drug addicted society, during the bad covid period drug use increased and most ambo calls were for people either overdosing or trying to suicide usually by hanging...hardly a call for a CoVid related illness problem though.
I'm over drug users who get violent and want to risk the lives of healthcare workers and take time away from other sick or injured people. I dont care what the reason they got onto drugs to start with but if you get violent and start hurting people then you are a criminal and should be treated like one.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: jeza on December 16, 2020, 04:04:53 PM
Fair call.

I also think for most of these people it wouldn't be the first time they took drugs and got violent. Yet somehow it's seen as a mitigating factor in court.

Oh I didn't know what I was doing cos I was on drugs.

I'd say You knew you'd become violent yet you took the drugs anyway therefore cop additional punishment.

Not sure that would help but something has to change.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 16, 2020, 04:34:20 PM
I feel very sorry for the emergency workers, the wankers seem to have all the rights! But there is some irony that the wankers won't get more sympathy anywhere else than they get from the emergency workers, they genuinely care. I couldn't do that job!

When I was in hospital for a day or two last year I couldn't believe how disruptive the wankers can be, the emergency medical staff and security staff are consumed by wankers getting aggro because they can't have a smoke or want to piss off out of the joint high as a kite! The emergency would probably be 40% more efficient if the police could just locked them away, but they can't! This is the hidden cost Joe Average doesn't see, while half the staff are dealing with some disruptive wanker, other ill people are not getting the level of attention they need to get out of the place faster! Either way, we pay, we all pay!

I don't know what the answer is, it's not having police in there because the staff will tell you they do not want armed police inside the emergency wards. They see that as being just one lunatic away from a mass homicide! Do no harm!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 16, 2020, 05:16:19 PM
Fair call.

I also think for most of these people it wouldn't be the first time they took drugs and got violent. Yet somehow it's seen as a mitigating factor in court.

Oh I didn't know what I was doing cos I was on drugs.

I'd say You knew you'd become violent yet you took the drugs anyway therefore cop additional punishment.

Not sure that would help but something has to change.
I'd apply a double penalty for being under the influence. Fark the discounts, nuffs enuff.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 16, 2020, 05:18:18 PM
I feel very sorry for the emergency workers, the wankers seem to have all the rights! But there is some irony that the wankers won't get more sympathy anywhere else than they get from the emergency workers, they genuinely care. I couldn't do that job!

When I was in hospital for a day or two last year I couldn't believe how disruptive the wankers can be, the emergency medical staff and security staff are consumed by wankers getting aggro because they can't have a smoke or want to piss off out of the joint high as a kite! The emergency would probably be 40% more efficient if the police could just locked them away, but they can't! This is the hidden cost Joe Average doesn't see, while half the staff are dealing with some disruptive wanker, other ill people are not getting the level of attention they need to get out of the place faster! Either way, we pay, we all pay!

I don't know what the answer is, it's not having police in there because the staff will tell you they do not want armed police inside the emergency wards. They see that as being just one lunatic away from a mass homicide! Do no harm!
Well the answer certainly isn't removing the responsibility by decriminalising it IMHO. These days, it seems to always be someone else's fault or problem.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: chalkybill on December 16, 2020, 09:06:57 PM
I noticed that the Oregon study suggested that the money formerly used to arrest, hold court, incarcerate, etc. would be better spent else where.  Suggesting it would be less.  Yes there would be decreases in these costs but they would probably be more than matched by medical and psychological bills.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 16, 2020, 10:12:43 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/12/jeff-bezos-amazon-workers-covid-19-scrooge-capitalism
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: shawny on December 17, 2020, 07:03:34 AM
I dont care what the reason they got onto drugs to start with but if you get violent and start hurting people then you are a criminal and should be treated like one.




100% agree. Angry Andersons son is dead as a result of trying to assist his best mate and who was on a heavy night taking MDMA. He was beaten and stomped on as 'apparently' he thought Andersons son was the devil. He was sentenced to 7 years with a min of 5 for manslaughter. Utter madness and shows no justice for the poor victims family whatsoever.

Andersons son has had potentially 60 years taken from him and the man responsible could be walking the streets in 5... How is this right?

Any father would be hard pressed not wanting to take his own justice out on release - These are crimes the victims family never ever move on.

Disgusting lack of justice.     
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: townsendcalling on December 17, 2020, 11:26:47 AM
Should kids who are currently at uni, but have solid casual jobs, be asked to pay board?? (They already  pay their own rego, car insurance, phones and CFC membership)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 17, 2020, 11:27:44 AM
Again, another huge issue which isn't an either/or situation to my way of thinking.

Until ice came along most violent crimes were committed by folks with a mental illness or drunk (or both)... and alcohol is a legal drug.

Let’s take a squiz at the horrendous cost to the community of drunk people/alcohol... domestic violence, car/truck accidents, beating up ambos/ staff in hospitals and so on. Alcohol remains one of the worst drugs re causes of violence and crime... then there are the physical illnesses caused by alcohol - another cost to the community.

Ice is in a category of its own. An angry person on ice is every bit as bad as an angry drunk – abuse and violence. But ice also tends to alter the actual brain chemistry of those pre disposed to mental health issues. And there aint no going back once this chemistry is altered… only prescription medication which tends to so subdue the individual as to make them indistinguishable from a cabbage – better that than irrational/angry/violent, some would say.

Since time immemorial, humans have sought out mind-altering substances, but generally for a sense of peace or fun or spiritual inspiration/connection.

Just to throw a wrench into the argument… much meaningful research into some illicit drugs (LSD, magic mushies, peyote, hooch and so on) shows that these mind-altering substances can be effectively used in psychiatry and psychology to actually help some folks with a mental illness. Holy [email protected]! Yep, and it is gaining momentum but unlike the 60s, its use is being strictly controlled & monitored (and is still in the experimental stage it should be noted). Leary and co. were onto something.

And here’s another mind-bender – low level consumers of alcohol out-live non-drinkers. Yep, and it aint the grape or whatever, its actually the alcohol. Glass of grape, or coupla beers or G & T etc with dinner – good for you. But as soon as we go beyond the one or two per day, the wellness curve dips… badly!

As for the justice aspect, personally, although I favour decriminalizing illicit drugs, provided monitoring and registration is thorough, I’m an absolutist re NOT being able to use ‘drunk or outa my mind’ as any excuse or justification for a crime. So many mind-altering substances (grog included) only remove inhibition, so any angry person is a powder keg re abuse and violence against society once effected by their poison of choice. For me, convictions against those committing a crime of violence against another human/animal, whether p1ssed/high or not, should get more jail time.

I totally understand the feelings of anger toward those who harm others when drunk or high. I’m not immune from those feelings and have had family members keep things from me because they knew what I would do to the perpetrator of the violence against my loved one.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 17, 2020, 11:31:26 AM
Should kids who are currently at uni, but have solid casual jobs, be asked to pay board?? (They already  pay their own rego, car insurance, phones and CFC membership)
@townsendcalling

Yes, even if eventually it has to be given back when they might be struggling.

I do not see this as being anything to do with wealth, it's about doing what is right.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 17, 2020, 12:50:15 PM
In my very limited reading on this topic, I gather that in pre modern cultures, psychedelics were used quite commonly, but always in a ritualistic context, under supervision, and were taken principally in order to experience the divine. They were, as I understand it, a kind of equalizer, to convey the correct (in my view) notion that we are strongly connected with the things around us, and we need to respect that. I'm quite sure they also understood this was a good way of taking care of those individuals who feel a strong urge to liberate themselves from everyday constraints and societal norms, and to do it in a managed, sensible way. Such experiences are not only induced by drugs - sweat lodges and vision quests, even extended fasting can induce an altered state of consciousness.

I'm not suggesting that such cultures are perfect, but I think frankly the West could learn a lot from our ancestors.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 17, 2020, 01:21:22 PM
In my very limited reading on this topic, I gather that in pre modern cultures, psychedelics were used quite commonly, but always in a ritualistic context, under supervision, and were taken principally in order to experience the divine. They were, as I understand it, a kind of equalizer, to convey the correct (in my view) notion that we are strongly connected with the things around us, and we need to respect that. I'm quite sure they also understood this was a good way of taking care of those individuals who feel a strong urge to liberate themselves from everyday constraints and societal norms, and to do it in a managed, sensible way. Such experiences are not only induced by drugs - sweat lodges and vision quests, even extended fasting can induce an altered state of consciousness.

I'm not suggesting that such cultures are perfect, but I think frankly the West could learn a lot from our ancestors.
I've heard the term psychedelic is a bit wrong, it's really the domain of LSD and Psilocybin. The cultural substances were more psychotropic than hallucinogen, substances like Peyote or Datura. I'm not sure the fine details.

There was a nice podcast about this a few weeks back;
http://bigpicturescience.org/episodes/skeptic-check-shroom-with-a-view

The potential for treatment of depression with some of these native medicines is being seriously investigated.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 17, 2020, 04:42:53 PM
I've heard the term psychedelic is a bit wrong, it's really the domain of LSD and Psilocybin. The cultural substances were more psychotropic than hallucinogen, substances like Peyote or Datura. I'm not sure the fine details.


I just stick to 'mind-altering' substances. Too many grey areas and crossovers.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 17, 2020, 04:49:05 PM
The potential for treatment of depression with some of these native medicines is being seriously investigated.

I know folks here in Oz, who are using it to help with a number of mental illnesses with encouraging results - but the supervision is strict and dosages closely monitored, and there are plenty of main stream medical folks who are dead against it. A dear Yank buddy of mine, many moons ago, was having all kinds of strife with his teenage son... so off they went (from Virginia) and had a w/e of peyote on the west coast somewhere, with the appropriate supervision. He reckons it was the most bonding experience of their lives... about 15 years on and still going strong and not needing and repeat 'sessions!' But for every success story you're bound to find folks not getting the correct supervision and having an awful, even dangerous experience.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 17, 2020, 04:57:24 PM
Should kids who are currently at uni, but have solid casual jobs, be asked to pay board?? (They already  pay their own rego, car insurance, phones and CFC membership)
Im of Italian heritage, so we (in general) don't pay board. Ive put 2 girls through uni and they haven't paid me a cent. They have always had part time jobs during uni and they saved as much of it as they could. To my way of thinking, it was my way of helping them out (ie putting a roof over their heads and feeding them free of charge). My eldest has built a house and has moved in with her partner so they are off and running. My youngest has just completed uni so once she is working FT for a couple of years, she may do the same, until then, she lives with me free of charge.  I gave my eldest a "kick start payment gift" when she bought the land, Ill do the same with Junior when she's ready. I toyed with the idea of making them pay me board with the intention of giving it all back to them when they moved out, but I found they were hard workers and good savers so there wasn't a need. Thats how I was brought up and my take on it anyway.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 17, 2020, 07:57:11 PM
What a farken disgrace this is. This piece of subhuman filth wants to play the racial disadvantage card, it makes me sick to the core. They should just put a bullet between his eyes. Piece of garbage I hope you rot in hell.

From the HS:
The “Indigenous disadvantage” of killer Codey Herrmann will form the centre of defence submissions as they fight the state’s top prosecutor’s bid to lock him up for longer.

Director of Public Prosecutions Kerri Judd QC argues the 36-year sentence handed down to Aiia Maasarwe’s murderer was “manifestly inadequate”.

A five-judge bench will hear the appeal in March.

Court of Appeal president Chris Maxwell said the court would need more information regarding mitigating factors and moral culpability to understand Herrmann’s “appalling” crime.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on December 17, 2020, 08:11:51 PM
From the start to the finish
You live by the sword
But you're over your limit
Come and get your reward
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 18, 2020, 08:43:43 AM
My kids never paid board, like GTC we put them through Uni and supported them. I paid board for a couple of years when I first started working but it was different then and my father was old school who put himself through Accounting at Uni at night school and worked several jobs through the day when he was young and never got a cent from his old man and had the value set that you paid your way in life so I had to pay board etc. Funny though when we had kids he spoiled them rotten and mellowed in his later years and became very generous, but I think he was over tough on me to make me harden up.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on December 18, 2020, 09:04:38 AM
Weird isn't it ... my first fornightly pay was $53.  My mother insisted I contribute to the household to the tune of $25 for the same period.  I was not happy about that. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 18, 2020, 09:37:55 AM
Weird isn't it ... my first fornightly pay was $53.  My mother insisted I contribute to the household to the tune of $25 for the same period.  I was not happy about that. 
That is tough, think I was on $80 a week and $20 - 25 went on board.


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 28, 2020, 05:47:17 PM
https://theconversation.com/the-less-equal-we-become-the-less-we-trust-science-and-thats-a-problem-151691
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 28, 2020, 06:01:46 PM
https://theconversation.com/the-less-equal-we-become-the-less-we-trust-science-and-thats-a-problem-151691
I've got a problem with this, it seems like a correlation rather than a causation.

I'd say the truth lives within the following irony.

The more every unqualified opinion is treated equally in the wider media, without investigation or assessment, the less equal we become! Murdoch's News Ltd will examine every published scientific opinion, often using fake/false claims and cherrypicked facts, and barely question the Dunning Kruger effect driven fools commentating wrongly on deeply technical issues.

It's the widely broadcast unquestioned voice of nutters and conspiracy theorists, whose fake claims go largely unquestioned by the broader media, that drives the opinion of poll driven career politicians.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 28, 2020, 06:23:10 PM
What a farken disgrace this is. This piece of subhuman filth wants to play the racial disadvantage card, it makes me sick to the core. They should just put a bullet between his eyes. Piece of garbage I hope you rot in hell.

From the HS:
The “Indigenous disadvantage” of killer Codey Herrmann will form the centre of defence submissions as they fight the state’s top prosecutor’s bid to lock him up for longer.

Director of Public Prosecutions Kerri Judd QC argues the 36-year sentence handed down to Aiia Maasarwe’s murderer was “manifestly inadequate”.

A five-judge bench will hear the appeal in March.

Court of Appeal president Chris Maxwell said the court would need more information regarding mitigating factors and moral culpability to understand Herrmann’s “appalling” crime.



That hasn’t gone down well with Aboriginal communities.  A lot of Aboriginal folk are saying that they have had similar life experiences and don’t feel at all inclined to rape and murder helpless young women.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 28, 2020, 06:58:23 PM
That hasn’t gone down well with Aboriginal communities.  A lot of Aboriginal folk are saying that they have had similar life experiences and don’t feel at all inclined to rape and murder helpless young women.
Perhaps we should hand him over to his elders to deal with him.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 01, 2021, 01:34:11 PM
I fear politics is getting in the way of science yet again, in this case the origins of humanity in Australia, research about which is suffering from underfunding and neglect because of it being unfashionable in political circles.

For some time it's been hypothesised from evidence uncovered that the people we refer to as 1st Nations were not actually the countries original inhabitants. There is significant evidence in both rock art as well as recent DNA analysis that shows modern 1st Nations people were not related to those who were already here beyond a more recent period of population expansion. Yet mentioning this, discussing it in official circles, is career suicide at the moment due to the political environment.

I know some right-wing types picked up on those reports for their own motives and leverage, but the pursuit of truth should not be tailored to suit human politics, does it really make any difference if the research continues unhindered?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on February 01, 2021, 01:48:56 PM
I fear politics is getting in the way of science yet again, in this case the origins of humanity in Australia, research about which is suffering from underfunding and neglect because of it being unfashionable in political circles.

For some time it's been hypothesised from evidence uncovered that the people we refer to as 1st Nations were not actually the countries original inhabitants. There is significant evidence in both rock art as well as recent DNA analysis that shows modern 1st Nations people were not related to those who were already here beyond a more recent period of population expansion. Yet mentioning this, discussing it in official circles, is career suicide at the moment due to the political environment.

I know some right-wing types picked up on those reports for their own motives and leverage, but the pursuit of truth should not be tailored to suit human politics, does it really make any difference if the research continues unhindered?

This is from 2015, so perhaps not quite cutting edge :

https://theconversation.com/factcheck-might-there-have-been-people-in-australia-prior-to-aboriginal-people-43911

We can only go based on what we know, and for now, any suggestions regarding pre Aboriginal people are speculative and awaiting further evidence. The arguments raised by that dingbat Leyonhjelm are dodgy, but that comes as little surprise.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on February 01, 2021, 01:51:02 PM
From 2016 :

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2016-06-07/dna-confirms-aboriginal-people-as-the-first-australians/7481360

From 2018, not quite on topic, but close :

https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/when-did-aboriginal-people-first-arrive-australia
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 01, 2021, 03:04:55 PM
From 2016 :

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2016-06-07/dna-confirms-aboriginal-people-as-the-first-australians/7481360

From 2018, not quite on topic, but close :

https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/when-did-aboriginal-people-first-arrive-australia
Yes, what we read are two sides of a debate about an investigation.

Having that debate about the investigation isn't my issue, my concern is that one side is politically ensuring the investigation and debate only goes in one direction. They are inhibiting or denying the right to ask the question. Shouldn't the truth be all we care about?

You would have also found those invested in the "Out of Africa" hypothesis now heavily defending that in the face of the 65K year data being disclosed now. It's politically unsavoury, because it affects so many histories, and also because some tout it for political purposes. But that 65K data is built on the same reliable methods as the counterargument, it's not a case of one technique being superior or another wrong. Much of the counterargument at this stage is that 65K isn't correct because we have already reported it as 50K, and they follow up comment is therefore I doubt 65K can be true!

I've sensed in this debate that below is the bigger issue, which puts the recent minority Australian research trying to hold sway against a tsunami of tenured specialists who have formed a "consensus";
Quote
The original study by Dr Adcock and his co-workers was broadly publicised internationally not only because it suggested there were humans in Australia before Aboriginal people but because it challenged a single African origin for all modern humans.
This bit in bold is looking a bit if not very shaky for the long term, the latest discoveries which seem to be surfacing with increasing frequency really suggest many pathways to modern human, but it's staunchly denied by some. The professors will eventually be made redundant by their students, that is when the refreshed data becomes mainstream.

So I weigh all this in the context of academic tenure as well, which is a double edged sword, so there is considerable resistance to new information that sometimes survives or can also make a career's worth of work redundant. That is a pretty fair "why risk it" motivation!

If 65K is true, it won't be the last time modern science built on 19th century natural-philosophy turns out to be full of bogus assumptions. True science is never right, it just gets closer to being correct with every validated revision.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on February 01, 2021, 03:44:45 PM
Science is sitting pretty sweet if you ask me. I accept that as a way of studying the physical world around us, it is the best we have. But it must be pretty nice to be in a position where you can be incorrect (which in essence is what you are saying), yet still have enormous prestige, but also reserve the right to change your mind when something better comes along. I'm being a little mischievous here, but hopefully you can see my point.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on February 01, 2021, 04:08:30 PM
https://humanorigins.si.edu/education/introduction-human-evolution\



Quote
Most scientists currently recognize some 15 to 20 different species of early humans. Scientists do not all agree, however, about how these species are related or which ones simply died out. Many early human species -- certainly the majority of them – left no living descendants. Scientists also debate over how to identify and classify particular species of early humans, and about what factors influenced the evolution and extinction of each species.

I think Science finds new things to disagree about all the time, and whenever anyone wants to argue that point with me, I point to three points in time.

Erastothanes mapped the circumference of the earth using mathematics and shadows in 240 B.C.  Despite this knowledge, Galileo Galilei was labelled heretic as late as the 1600's A.D. for insinutating that the earth was round not flat, and despite all the evidence pointing to the contrary, we have flat earthers in existence today, and if it suited certain political agendas, that would be the truth of the world.

ERGO, Scientific interpretation based on whats common shouldn't be trusted, and the data should be studied individually for people to make up their own minds.  The more someone tells me something is true, the less likely I am to believe it. 


@PaulP , I think the above speaks for what you have stated!!!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on February 01, 2021, 06:55:02 PM
If the average 2020 student walked into a Science classroom when I went to school (1960s) armed with the knowledge of today and started sprouting some of his theories and facts the teacher would probably kick them out (after giving them 6 cuts of the cane for being a smart-arse prick). ;)  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 01, 2021, 07:29:28 PM
If the average 2020 student walked into a Science classroom when I went to school (1960s) armed with the knowledge of today and started sprouting some of his theories and facts the teacher would probably kick them out (after giving them 6 cuts of the cane for being a smart-arse prick). ;)  ;D  ;D
Instead today, the student gives the teacher 6 punches in the head and a kick up the ass.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 01, 2021, 08:01:28 PM
Science is sitting pretty sweet if you ask me. I accept that as a way of studying the physical world around us, it is the best we have. But it must be pretty nice to be in a position where you can be incorrect (which in essence is what you are saying), yet still have enormous prestige, but also reserve the right to change your mind when something better comes along. I'm being a little mischievous here, but hopefully you can see my point.
But obviously you can't be blatantly deceptive or stupidly in error, and you can't be denialist in the Trump style, of course you might only know you were wrong long after enough new knowledge is uncovered.

Science is accepting new knowledge has some foundational right to challenge your ideas, science is not denying that right dogmatically or refusing to even investigate the questions.

 You have the right to accept new science and also defend your own science, you do not have the right to deny new science by political means.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on February 01, 2021, 08:08:25 PM
But obviously you can't be blatantly deceptive or stupidly in error, and you can't be denialist in the Trump style, of course you might only know you were wrong long after enough new knowledge is uncovered.

Science is accepting new knowledge has some foundational right to challenge your ideas, science is not denying that right dogmatically or refusing to even investigate the questions.

 You have the right to accept new science and also defend your own science, you do not have the right to deny new science by political means.

Yes, I agree, and all important points.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 01, 2021, 08:09:44 PM
Yes, I agree, and all important points.
They are still trying to disprove Einstein to this day, he's only right for as long as they fail.

One day Einstein may well be consigned to the same fate as Newton, having delivered us a nice quaint approximation, that is close enough to right in 99.9% of daily cases.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 01, 2021, 08:09:52 PM
You have the right to accept new science and also defend your own science, you do not have the right to deny new science by political means.

Tell that to Trump.
Deny, deny, deny and cut funding to anyone who proves he is wrong.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 01, 2021, 08:14:52 PM
They are still trying to disprove Einstein to this day, he's only right for as long as they fail!

Einstein wasn't always right.

He was wrong.....at least once.

What he was wrong about was when he said a statement he made was incorrect (Essentially about the universe expanding). He was actually correct to begin with. His doubting of himself was what he was wrong about.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Professer E on February 01, 2021, 09:41:13 PM
I believe it was a "gumby factor" he put in to balance the equations, he thought it was an error.  It ended up being the cosmological constant.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 02, 2021, 09:56:02 AM
I believe it was a "gumby factor" he put in to balance the equations, he thought it was an error.  It ended up being the cosmological constant.
Because his equations produced a result he didn't believe in, he removed the factor that in effect by chance represents the force on expansion created by dark energy. But he didn't really know about dark energy, he was just using a mathematical technique to paint the picture of the universe he thought was true. He was correct in his initial thoughts, and wrong to remove that term just because it led to something he didn't believe to be true.

Einstein wasn't always right.

He was wrong.....at least once.

What he was wrong about was when he said a statement he made was incorrect (Essentially about the universe expanding). He was actually correct to begin with. His doubting of himself was what he was wrong about.
He was also wrong about Bohr and Quantum Theory/Mechanics, which is where his famous "God doesn't play dice" and "Spooky action at a distance" quotes comes from, and many will probably refer to the God reference as a mistake as well, but I don't see that as part of science, just a faith that he is free to believe in.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 05, 2021, 06:42:46 PM
Computer advice needed from ye knowledgeable ones.

I have no end of troubles with cordless mouses. I've got a J. Burrows which seems 'jittery' and unreliable. Before that I had a Verbatim which keeps on going to sleep (energy saver?) which is a pain in the clackerola. The Microsoft cordless, curved keyboard is a ripper but getting old, and the mouse that came with it, karked it. Time to get another cordless keyboard/mouse combo so only one USB port is used. As I do a heap of typing, and can touch-type at a pretty fair speed (RAN trained) I need a quality 'soft keys' keyboard.

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 05, 2021, 11:48:56 PM
Computer advice needed from ye knowledgeable ones.

I have no end of troubles with cordless mouses. I've got a J. Burrows which seems 'jittery' and unreliable. Before that I had a Verbatim which keeps on going to sleep (energy saver?) which is a pain in the clackerola. The Microsoft cordless, curved keyboard is a ripper but getting old, and the mouse that came with it, karked it. Time to get another cordless keyboard/mouse combo so only one USB port is used. As I do a heap of typing, and can touch-type at a pretty fair speed (RAN trained) I need a quality 'soft keys' keyboard.

Any suggestions?
The higher end Microsoft stuff is pretty good, hard to beat for performance and value. At work they supply these and most people are happy with them, the mouse batteries last ages and ages. https://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/microsoft-wireless-desktop-keyboard-and-mouse-3050-mswdtcomb

If you are a typing officionado get a Cherry MX switch mechanical keyboard, you can custom order a Cherry built keyboard with switches that you prefer. There is something very calming about that older clickity clack positive click sound, and you won't get RSI. But they generally won't come in a mouse combo, you have to buy a separate BT/Wifi mouse.

A mates raves about his Rapoo wireless combo, and one model comes with a wireless mouse charging cradle so there is never any battery issues. It's quite heavy and has a glass face, but he says the weight makes it a pleasure to use.

Have a look at what you can get from Scorptec, https://www.scorptec.com.au/product/keyboards

Check out reviews and guides over on the Wirecutter. keep in mind some brand names are different here compared to the USA.
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/search/?s=keyboard

Tough task to buy a good keyboard especially if you are shopping online, you really need to know what you are looking for.

The crazy gaming people have this subject covered, they customise keyboards like a golfer tailoring clubs.

If you want to know about mechanical keyboard switches, read here, https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2012/12/an-introduction-to-cherry-mx-mechanical-switches/

When you say soft, you are probably looking for something like Cherry MX Brown. Some of the more expensive mechanical keyboards let you pop off the buttons and change the switches to whatever you like. The guys that code a lot at work even have setups with different switches installed in different keyboard locations. It lets them rest their fingers/hands on the keyboard without ghost pressing, again no RSI issues.

The Cherry website even lets you hear the sounds of the switches.
https://www.cherrymx.de/en/mx-original/mx-brown.html
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 06, 2021, 08:09:40 AM
The higher end Microsoft stuff is pretty good, hard to beat for performance and value. At work they supply these and most people are happy with them, the mouse batteries last ages and ages. https://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/microsoft-wireless-desktop-keyboard-and-mouse-3050-mswdtcomb

If you are a typing officionado get a Cherry MX switch mechanical keyboard, you can custom order a Cherry built keyboard with switches that you prefer. There is something very calming about that older clickity clack positive click sound, and you won't get RSI. But they generally won't come in a mouse combo, you have to buy a separate BT/Wifi mouse.

A mates raves about his Rapoo wireless combo, and one model comes with a wireless mouse charging cradle so there is never any battery issues. It's quite heavy and has a glass face, but he says the weight makes it a pleasure to use.

Have a look at what you can get from Scorptec, https://www.scorptec.com.au/product/keyboards

Check out reviews and guides over on the Wirecutter. keep in mind some brand names are different here compared to the USA.
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/search/?s=keyboard

Tough task to buy a good keyboard especially if you are shopping online, you really need to know what you are looking for.

The crazy gaming people have this subject covered, they customise keyboards like a golfer tailoring clubs.

If you want to know about mechanical keyboard switches, read here, https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2012/12/an-introduction-to-cherry-mx-mechanical-switches/

When you say soft, you are probably looking for something like Cherry MX Brown. Some of the more expensive mechanical keyboards let you pop off the buttons and change the switches to whatever you like. The guys that code a lot at work even have setups with different switches installed in different keyboard locations. It lets them rest their fingers/hands on the keyboard without ghost pressing, again no RSI issues.

The Cherry website even lets you hear the sounds of the switches.
https://www.cherrymx.de/en/mx-original/mx-brown.html

Wow, can't thank you enough, Spotted One, for taking the time to collect all this info. I also learned that there is a name for those of us who prefer 'soft' keys... tactile. Ripper stuff, mate. Deep thanks. 👍
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 06, 2021, 12:51:48 PM
Wow, can't thank you enough, Spotted One, for taking the time to collect all this info. I also learned that there is a name for those of us who prefer 'soft' keys... tactile. Ripper stuff, mate. Deep thanks. 👍
Yes, oldies like me who learnt to type of electric typewriters, that non-linear give they exhibited it is still the best to type on at speed by far.

I had a relative that was a high level office assistant, shorthand, typing etc., etc., she could type at 120words/min sustained and hardly have a correction! It was like listening one of those old Olivetti daisy wheel or IBM Selectric printers in replay mode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNUEUth7qjc
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 06, 2021, 02:31:24 PM
Yes, oldies like me who learnt to type of electric typewriters, that non-linear give they exhibited it is still the best to type on at speed by far.

I had a relative that was a high level office assistant, shorthand, typing etc., etc., she could type at 120words/min sustained and hardly have a correction! It was like listening one of those old Olivetti daisy wheel or IBM Selectric printers in replay mode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNUEUth7qjc

Wow!! 120 wpm is sensational.

My very best, on a teleprinter in the Navy, was around 60 wpm. On the latest stuff, around 75-80 when in the groove.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 06, 2021, 04:00:38 PM
Wow!! 120 wpm is sensational.

My very best, on a teleprinter in the Navy, was around 60 wpm. On the latest stuff, around 75-80 when in the groove.
60 is pretty good Baggers, worth boasting about!

I mostly use CAD or code now so no more fast typing for me, if I tried the arthritis would turn it into garbled rubbish, not that it isn't rubbish already!

Years ago at the newspapers I would watch the linotype guys at work, setting hot metal, they would run in the 80-90 words/min range setting the Herald Sun or Weekly Times. What was that you said about lead or zinc fumes?

The young blokes at work who code electronics(FPGA, PLD) and program robots fulltime are spectacular, I'm a bit old school and do all that with schematics, but they do it all in code touch typing and ironically look almost robotic at full tilt. Blue glasses, headsets, microphones, and Cherry MX keyboards, they are the ones with customised switches, and also customised light up keyboard colours, most of us do not need that I'm sure. For them it actually has a purpose, when they change program or context the colours change to show the different hot keys and keyboard shortcuts. It's something that has grown out of PC gaming, which is why most of those Cherry MX type keyboards are found under Gaming keyboard listings.

As a confession, I've being using voice recognition a bit lately, I wrote it off as a waste of time years ago, but on the new hardware, with Win 10, the latest version of MS Office it works surprisingly well. You still need a quiet place and a good microphone though, and remain very very calm! ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on February 08, 2021, 12:40:16 PM
https://www.smh.com.au/national/morrison-shows-again-he-s-master-of-spin-20210205-p5702c.html#comments
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 08, 2021, 12:46:21 PM
https://www.smh.com.au/national/morrison-shows-again-he-s-master-of-spin-20210205-p5702c.html#comments
 @PaulP‍  What are your thoughts, someone who spins for a living informing or warning us about political spin?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on February 08, 2021, 12:57:49 PM
@PaulP‍  What are your thoughts, someone who spins for a living informing or warning us about political spin?

I'm not sure I follow.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 08, 2021, 03:14:52 PM
https://www.smh.com.au/national/morrison-shows-again-he-s-master-of-spin-20210205-p5702c.html#comments
Sean Kelly...
Columnist and former adviser to Labor prime ministers Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard...
Think that is a bit choice coming from a bloke who spun stories for the Labor party for a living....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 08, 2021, 04:38:04 PM
Sean Kelly...
Columnist and former adviser to Labor prime ministers Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard...
Think that is a bit choice coming from a bloke who spun stories for the Labor party for a living....

I guess it takes one to know one!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on February 22, 2021, 09:08:35 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/feb/22/people-with-extremist-views-less-able-to-do-complex-mental-tasks-research-suggests

So I guess those extremist types think that complex problems can be solved by simple solutions ? Wow.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on February 22, 2021, 10:12:06 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/feb/22/people-with-extremist-views-less-able-to-do-complex-mental-tasks-research-suggests

So I guess those extremist types think that complex problems can be solved by simple solutions ? Wow.

Not simple necessarily but by being impulsive and reactive.

They're less cautious and more lively to introduce the cain toad as a solution without thinking of other consequences.

Simple solutions are often the best, but you can't apply them properly without understanding the complexity of the problem at hand and ensuring you apply the simplest solution or group of solutions to solve it.

At least thats my understanding anyway. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 23, 2021, 08:03:30 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/feb/22/people-with-extremist-views-less-able-to-do-complex-mental-tasks-research-suggests

So I guess those extremist types think that complex problems can be solved by simple solutions ? Wow.

@PaulP‍  I liked this quote;
Quote
Participants who are prone to dogmatism – stuck in their ways and relatively resistant to credible evidence – actually have a problem with processing evidence even at a perceptual level, the authors found.
In the context of Facebook and Twitter this ..................................... the growth of Tik Tok is perhaps an even worse long term indicator!

The internet has constructed the perfect Terrarium for Dogmatism.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 23, 2021, 10:32:10 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/feb/22/people-with-extremist-views-less-able-to-do-complex-mental-tasks-research-suggests

So I guess those extremist types think that complex problems can be solved by simple solutions ? Wow.

The psychological makeup/profile of extremists (left or right) and conspiracy prone folks makes for fascinating reading. It would be unfair to summarize the detailed info but feelings of loss of control, and generally having a far more active 'fear centre' active in their brains in one central aspect of their psychology.

That doesn't mean, though, that all conspiracies are automatically nonsense, but often they are. Personally, I don't buy into most, but there are some that prick my interest... and I remain, very often, cynical of politicians who peddle 'trust me' or 'she'll be right.' Such a complex subject.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 24, 2021, 11:02:19 AM
I know this will seem harsh.

But how can you have a Defence Minister, Linda Reynolds, who goes out on sick leave over internal issues?

What on earth would happen if we looked like going to war?

What does that say about how defence and security has been managed in recent times?

On a separate note relating to state politics. The Vic Liberals must be in a world of pain if they think going back to Matthew Guy is a viable alternative to the current muppets.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 24, 2021, 11:36:04 AM
I know this will seem harsh.

But how can you have a Defence Minister, Linda Reynolds, who goes out on sick leave over internal issues?

What on earth would happen if we looked like going to war?

What does that say about how defence and security has been managed in recent times?

On a separate note relating to state politics. The Vic Liberals must be in a world of pain if they think going back to Matthew Guy is a viable alternative to the current muppets.

Never underestimate the health impact of accountability.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on February 24, 2021, 11:58:08 AM
I know this will seem harsh.

But how can you have a Defence Minister, Linda Reynolds, who goes out on sick leave over internal issues?

What on earth would happen if we looked like going to war?

What does that say about how defence and security has been managed in recent times?

On a separate note relating to state politics. The Vic Liberals must be in a world of pain if they think going back to Matthew Guy is a viable alternative to the current muppets.

Quality of politics in the country across ALL parties and at ALL levels is crap.

Look at that stupid liberal jerk in WA .... wants no coal fired power stations by 2025. 

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on February 24, 2021, 01:23:54 PM
Quality of politics in the country across ALL parties and at ALL levels is crap.

Look at that stupid liberal jerk in WA .... wants no coal fired power stations by 2025. 

If the polls are correct, the Libs are facing obliteration in the West with the Nats to form the opposition.  I guess Kirkup is clutching at straws to get some swinging voters on board.

I understand that WA is more reliant on fossil fuel for power generation than other states so eliminating coal-fired power generation by 2025 would be a pipedream.  A significant part of their power generation is government-owned too so there wouldn't be the economic pressures that commercial power generators are facing.  That said, WA probably has greater scope for renewable power than most places, particularly if tidal power generation is utilised.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 24, 2021, 01:40:57 PM
Quality of politics in the country across ALL parties and at ALL levels is crap.

Look at that stupid liberal jerk in WA .... wants no coal fired power stations by 2025. 


Its a disgrace, you can't take any of them seriously at any level (state or fed). The behaviour of the opposition parties in this country during covid has been an utterly disgusting. It will be a very very long time before I vote for any of the major parties.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 24, 2021, 01:45:27 PM
That said, WA probably has greater scope for renewable power than most places, particularly if tidal power generation is utilised.
If they go down that track you want to vote them out immediately.

Progress on those tidal and wave technologies has slowed greatly, there seem to be significant issues around reliability and the ongoing costs. The problem is stuff grows on surfaces left in the sea, algae, barnacles, seas grass, life....................... There are some technologies being developed by CSIRO to assist with those issues, but they haven't been trialled yet, a lot is left up to foreign adopters of the technology. Another case of evented here, sold over there, then purchased back for our use off foreign owners!

On the surface it looks to me like the feasibility of some of the projects had been greatly exaggerated, especially in WA where there has been a huge historical investment, which is understandable given the geography. I think the problem is when they do the sums the energy available to harvest is huge, effectively governed by the gravity from the combined mass of the Earth, Sun and Moon, but the practical methods to harvest it just do not exist. A 20m x 20m x 10m pontoon held submerged in sea water present 4000m² of collecting surface, to which about 4 tonnes of life growth each and every month, which sounds a lot but it's just 1kg/m²/mnth of living matter. The added weight destroys the efficiency of the system, so you have to continually clean everything.

Of the renewables solar is far and away the most feasible, but it is not as clean or low cost as people expect and base load remains an issue but solar thermal could be the cure for that problem but it also has issues. I wouldn't want to live next to one of the bigger solar plants, it must be like living next door to an asphalt carpark that's 2km wide, imagine the hot breeze!

But we should leave this debate to energy thread.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on February 24, 2021, 02:12:27 PM
But we should leave this debate to energy thread.

Yes we should, but be aware that the Federal Government is funding research into tidal energy, mainly done by the CSIRO, and there is an Australian designed and built tidal turbine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvHuumY8G40&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on February 24, 2021, 02:17:27 PM
Its a disgrace, you can't take any of them seriously at any level (state or fed). The behaviour of the opposition parties in this country during covid has been an utterly disgusting. It will be a very very long time before I vote for any of the major parties.

You should definitely vote for the Greens. The improvements in your life should be noticeable immediately. Food tastes better, the air seems fresher, and you'll having more energy and spring in your step than you ever thought possible. It worked for me.  :)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 24, 2021, 04:52:24 PM
You should definitely vote for the Greens. The improvements in your life should be noticeable immediately. Food tastes better, the air seems fresher, and you'll having more energy and spring in your step than you ever thought possible. It worked for me.  :)

Got a genuine, good natured chuckle here, Pauly.

The next 50-75 years, politically, will be fascinating as more and more people drift from the dreadful lackings (new word!!!) of the major parties... globally. They trot out, generally speaking, the same old strategies, tactics and glibness that ruled for so long - and became out-dated a decade or two ago. It is becoming more and more difficult to hide in an internet world. Viva la revolution  ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 24, 2021, 05:18:18 PM
You should definitely vote for the Greens. The improvements in your life should be noticeable immediately. Food tastes better, the air seems fresher, and you'll having more energy and spring in your step than you ever thought possible. It worked for me.  :)
Pauly I partake in activities which don't align with Green policy. I support most of what they stand for, their approach and attitude appals me to the point that I wouldn't feed them.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 24, 2021, 06:23:56 PM
Pauly I partake in activities which don't align with Green policy. I support most of what they stand for, their approach and attitude appals me to the point that I wouldn't feed them.
Well that escalated quickly.  :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 24, 2021, 06:40:51 PM
Pauly I partake in activities which don't align with Green policy. I support most of what they stand for, their approach and attitude appals me to the point that I wouldn't feed them.

I suspect there may have been a little tongue in cheek with Pauly's comment. However, in terms of values and principles I find myself, to some extent, aligned with the Greens but they do have an image and communication problem which has them seeming a little too extreme.

I certainly do a few things not aligned with my perception of hard line Greens... at present I have a magnificent scotch fillet marinading for lunch tomorrow! So I am very much an omnivore... I have no issue ripping out a tree that could pose a public risk in high winds or is crushing water pipes and so on. But the principle of looking to more organic (I grow loads of my own veggies, from organic seeds etc) foods I applaud, along with power options aligned with minimum environmental impact...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 24, 2021, 06:41:05 PM
Well that escalated quickly.  :o
How so?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 24, 2021, 06:44:18 PM
Question for IT gurus.

Is it possible in an organisation using Zoom for meetings to have someone else within the same organisation, not participating in the meeting, 'eves drop' without being noticed?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 24, 2021, 07:09:56 PM
I suspect there may have been a little tongue in cheek with Pauly's comment. However, in terms of values and principles I find myself, to some extent, aligned with the Greens but they do have an image and communication problem which has them seeming a little too extreme.

I certainly do a few things not aligned with my perception of hard line Greens... at present I have a magnificent scotch fillet marinading for lunch tomorrow! So I am very much an omnivore... I have no issue ripping out a tree that could pose a public risk in high winds or is crushing water pipes and so on. But the principle of looking to more organic (I grow loads of my own veggies, from organic seeds etc) foods I applaud, along with power options aligned with minimum environmental impact...
I understood the tongue cheek and was making the same point about their issues with communication. I want to be spoken to, not aggressively lectured or made to feel like a criminal (to be clear I am not referring to my Old Mate Pauly here).
As for my activities, as a son of European Immigrants, I was brought up to harvest animals for food, duck, quail, rabbit, hare, wild pig (the salumi my old man used to make out of wild pig would make your mouth water). I was brought up to do this legally, ethically and respectfully. No animal culls for thrills, what I take I eat. In many circles, this makes people like me persona non grata, but I couldn't care less as I march to my own drum and not that of a herd. If duck, quail etc numbers are proven scientifically to be down in any given year, I am the first to raise my hand and say their shouldn't be a season. As for looking after the environment, I am always willing and ready to do my bit, again I prefer to be influenced by science as opposed to some teenage brat.
I'll use this analogy, I was raised in a catholic family although I am not particularly religious. I find the whole pedo catholic priest thing abhorrent and when caught, they should rot in jail or be given a 22c injection. I have rarely met a priest which actually wanted to spend time with and listen to, the majority lecture you as opposed to talking to you and discussing things. I have met a few though along the journey that have been brilliant to listen to, and they are brilliant because they talk about the basics, the simple things in life. There are a few "Greenies" that I can call friends, who I can talk with one on one in a non aggressive manner and we can walk away respecting each others opinions. However I can't say the same for the imbeciles I have met on the wetland during duck season.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 24, 2021, 07:11:43 PM
Question for IT gurus.

Is it possible in an organisation using Zoom for meetings to have someone else within the same organisation, not participating in the meeting, 'eves drop' without being noticed?
Generally you can see all the participants in the meeting.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 24, 2021, 08:11:29 PM
I understood the tongue cheek and was making the same point about their issues with communication. I want to be spoken to, not aggressively lectured or made to feel like a criminal (to be clear I am not referring to my Old Mate Pauly here).
As for my activities, as a son of European Immigrants, I was brought up to harvest animals for food, duck, quail, rabbit, hare, wild pig (the salumi my old man used to make out of wild pig would make your mouth water). I was brought up to do this legally, ethically and respectfully. No animal culls for thrills, what I take I eat. In many circles, this makes people like me persona non grata, but I couldn't care less as I march to my own drum and not that of a herd. If duck, quail etc numbers are proven scientifically to be down in any given year, I am the first to raise my hand and say their shouldn't be a season. As for looking after the environment, I am always willing and ready to do my bit, again I prefer to be influenced by science as opposed to some teenage brat.
I'll use this analogy, I was raised in a catholic family although I am not particularly religious. I find the whole pedo catholic priest thing abhorrent and when caught, they should rot in jail or be given a 22c injection. I have rarely met a priest which actually wanted to spend time with and listen to, the majority lecture you as opposed to talking to you and discussing things. I have met a few though along the journey that have been brilliant to listen to, and they are brilliant because they talk about the basics, the simple things in life. There are a few "Greenies" that I can call friends, who I can talk with one on one in a non aggressive manner and we can walk away respecting each others opinions. However I can't say the same for the imbeciles I have met on the wetland during duck season.

FWIW, I found myself nodding as I read your post... and really impressed with how you treated captured game. In fact, I drooled. I have a good Italian mate whose grandfather makes home made salami... I was lucky enough to score some - unbelievable, more drooling when I think about it.

And, yes, too many priests and nuns do not walk the talk. I was also brought up a Catholic and have little respect for how the faith is run today.

Re the Greens, that is exactly what I was talking about re how they, in the main, communicate... there is too much talking down to and accusations and judgements coming out of their leader's mouths and that'll turn off many folks. A strong dose of humility will work wonders.

A dear friend who owns some restaurants in the A.C.T., and is Greek, had a vegan recently proudly -- almost arrogantly -- announce to him that they should have more vegan meals on their menu (lamb shoulder is their signature dish... is sensational). He replied that he had a vegan speciality and would be happy to let her try it. He returned to her table with a large bowl, with a big iceberg lettuce leaf covered generously with ice-blocks. She walked out. He was happy.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 24, 2021, 08:46:54 PM
Question for IT gurus.

Is it possible in an organisation using Zoom for meetings to have someone else within the same organisation, not participating in the meeting, 'eves drop' without being noticed?
Technically it is possible although unrelated to Zoom or any other software, legally if they are using company resources, hardware, all the content is owned by the organisation, the without being noticed part is where it gets sticky, in regard to who it is unknown to, the morality of it is another question.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on February 24, 2021, 08:59:10 PM
I won't ever talk to a priest of any persuasion though I tolerate them.  Same for any Green.

I consider both to be rather sanctimonious.  But I sure as hell don't hold followers of either "religion" to judgement.

EDIT

... unless they cross me.  Then all hell breaks loose.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 26, 2021, 12:28:03 PM
https://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/backlash-mr-potato-head-goes-gender-neutral-004216692.html

I guess this is the start of the end for gender titles/descriptions......no more Mr, Mrs, Ms etc...you will have a name but no specifics about your gender.
Titles such as Foreman, Storeman etc etc are obviously  going to be replaced by neutral titles such as Storeperson etc etc.
Ok its a changing world but its getting ridiculous when a legendary kids toy like Mr Potato Head is part of this frenzy to create a gender free society
to appease a minority.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 26, 2021, 12:58:41 PM
https://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/backlash-mr-potato-head-goes-gender-neutral-004216692.html

I guess this is the start of the end for gender titles/descriptions......no more Mr, Mrs, Ms etc...you will have a name but no specifics about your gender.
Titles such as Foreman, Storeman etc etc are obviously  going to be replaced by neutral titles such as Storeperson etc etc.
Ok its a changing world but its getting ridiculous when a legendary kids toy like Mr Potato Head is part of this frenzy to create a gender free society
to appease a minority.
So I'm free to call everybody Potato Head?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on February 26, 2021, 01:33:32 PM
So I'm free to call everybody Potato Head?

But not d-head?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 26, 2021, 01:43:19 PM
But not d-head?
 And you must replace c-head (both genders) with g-head!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 26, 2021, 05:54:34 PM
https://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/backlash-mr-potato-head-goes-gender-neutral-004216692.html

I guess this is the start of the end for gender titles/descriptions......no more Mr, Mrs, Ms etc...you will have a name but no specifics about your gender.
Titles such as Foreman, Storeman etc etc are obviously  going to be replaced by neutral titles such as Storeperson etc etc.
Ok its a changing world but its getting ridiculous when a legendary kids toy like Mr Potato Head is part of this frenzy to create a gender free society
to appease a minority.

How do we get down to the sewers? Via the Personholes?
What do we call homo-sapiens? Hupersons? and Hupersonkind?
When i visit New York, do i ask for downtown Personhatten?
Is The Phantoms mate now known as Persondrake the Magician?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 26, 2021, 06:25:12 PM
How do we get down to the sewers? Via the Personholes?
What do we call homo-sapiens? Hupersons? and Hupersonkind?
When i visit New York, do i ask for downtown Personhatten?
Is The Phantoms mate now known as Persondrake the Magician?

No more Superman or Superwoman/Girl...just SuperPerson.
Spiderman will be SpiderPerson....
Batman/woman will be as one...BatPerson..
Gender distinguishing Genitalia will be removed at birth unless you pay extra to retain them or you can add them later in the format of your choice. Nature will be removed from the equation.....

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on February 26, 2021, 06:29:37 PM
Uh uh! Can't have "person" ! That has a male gendered ending I'm afraid.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 26, 2021, 06:33:13 PM
The world's gone mad I tell ya.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 26, 2021, 07:46:44 PM
It's not illegal to have a sexual identity. This is absurd. Someone should come to Mr Potato Head's defence and allow him to keep his identity.  ::)  ::) 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on February 26, 2021, 08:14:52 PM
Ken and Barbie are headed for oblivion.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 26, 2021, 08:18:50 PM
Uh uh! Can't have "person" ! That has a male gendered ending I'm afraid.

So Batman becomes Batperson becomes Batperoffspring?

But what if a Bat identifies as a bird? Can't be....animalist!
Perhaps instead of Bat we should say Animal.

So perhaps Batman becomes Animalperoffspring.
How do we distinguish between Batman and Catwoman though. They would be turned into the same thing. "Animalperoffspring"

My head hurts.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 26, 2021, 08:19:29 PM
Ken and Barbie are headed for oblivion.
they are somewhat gender neutral already. ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 26, 2021, 08:30:18 PM
Hang on... the word 'person' must be destined for oblivion as well... it has the word 'son' in it, and that's masculine. Holy [email protected] We're all soon to be perpeople, hang on, that's plural... oh I give up  ;)  ::)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 26, 2021, 08:42:57 PM
We can all rest easy now... Hasbro has had a change of heart re making Mr Potato Head gender neutral. Mr Potato Head is back, and Mrs Potato Head is relieved. Common sense has prevailed... hallelujah!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on February 27, 2021, 04:42:17 PM
Its been fun guys, but this will only end in the movement eating itself.

Eventually the political right will put an end to this nonsense and everyone will stand by and applaud it.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 03, 2021, 03:36:07 PM
As much as I hate to state this, because I hate potentially discounting genuine events, it looks like #MeToo_v2 is about to surface in Australian media and politics.

Serious allegations must be supported with serious evidence, we can never allow the judicial system to descend into a Kangaroo Court of unsubstantiated allegations supported by unsubstantiated opinions.

Already we have the Sexual Assault version of VAERS running, where anonymous individuals can publicly blog unsubstantiated claims against pretty much an unlimited number of organisations and individuals. I fear for the people running these blogs, they probably have good intent, but they could well find themselves on the end of very serious and very substantial defamation cases.

It's an oldy but a goody, two wrongs do not make a right!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 03, 2021, 04:55:36 PM
As much as I hate to state this, because I hate potentially discounting genuine events, it looks like #MeToo_v2 is about to surface in Australian media and politics.

Serious allegations must be supported with serious evidence, we can never allow the judicial system to descend into a Kangaroo Court of unsubstantiated allegations supported by unsubstantiated opinions.

Already we have the Sexual Assault version of VAERS running, where anonymous individuals can publicly blog unsubstantiated claims against pretty much an unlimited number of organisations and individuals. I fear for the people running these blogs, they probably have good intent, but they could well find themselves on the end of very serious and very substantial defamation cases.

It's an oldy but a goody, two wrongs do not make a right!
The Attorney General no less, has identified himself as the man at the centre of historical rape allegations.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 04, 2021, 08:38:06 AM
The Attorney General no less, has identified himself as the man at the centre of historical rape allegations.
As much as I love it, this is an example of where The Conversation has run off the rails;

Quote from: The Conversation
So what now? Well, for one thing, says Michelle Arrow, women need to harness the rage that has built up in recent weeks. And that means turning the fury into a list of concrete demands for change, just as the women’s movement did in the 1970s. Rage is politically potent, and useful. But to make the most of it they need not only to get angry — they need to get organised.
The call is that there is no justice or that justice has failed, but there is no evidence either just an accusation unsupported by evidence, the plethora of voices offer unsupported opinion not evidence, the paragraph effectively calls for mob rule not really a demand for justice because there is no burden of proof in any of the demands.

The question of guilt is irrelevant in this, for me the problem is the procedural issues they want to bypass to allow the court of media and social media to rule.

I'm all for change, but it can't come at the potential persecution of the innocent in the absence of proof, it's somewhat ironic that the left calls for this given they demand we free teenage criminals caught in the act, but they want to hang draw and quarter the old white man without proof!

I read once that a female comedian made the feminist call in the USA, "Kill all white men", but qualified the call to arms with the disclaimer, " ........... but not my dad!" Apparently it was a joke, yet if I were to light heartedly include in a joke, "Do you think your ar5e looks big in that ..................................!" it's not so much funny and far more a misogynist sexual innuendo! Such is the hypocrisy of social media!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 04, 2021, 09:49:12 AM
Drunk on power LP.  Kenneally and SHY leading the charge of course.

EDIT - Should add that wasn't a political comment, but it was on personalities
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 04, 2021, 10:53:13 AM
Drunk on power LP.  Kenneally and SHY leading the charge of course.

EDIT - Should add that wasn't a political comment, but it was on personalities
As a casual observer, I just do not understand the thought that they can publicly make those assertions and not have some regard for the possibility the claims are false, based on the public evidence it's a coin toss! I gather that is why the police withdrew the charges, they nothing to work with!

If an enquiry is launched and clears Porter, surely the risk is the blow torch turns to the accusers, as discussed in that other famous thread freedom of speech does not engender freedom from responsibility or consequence. There are those already labelling the in media debate around "due process" as "Mansplaining", this is not what humanity represents.

I appreciate there is no justice for a person who takes their own life, and that applies equally whether the reasons given are real or imaginary!

I'm very sensitive to this, because I know a family with a young lad who was falsely accused of similar and almost took his life over it. Years later after some external events the young girl tried to unsuccessfully kill herself, she couldn't live with her own conscience and in recovery admitted making it all up to defend her honour to her parents. The fear of social media repercussions where the ultimate driver in both events! The social pressure for her to be perceived as a good girl, untarnished in her own cultural circles, drove the events that unfolded over many years.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 04, 2021, 10:58:22 AM
It’s interesting that murder charges proceed without the victim but rape cases can’t.

I know that the rape victim’s testimony is important in establishing whether or not the act was consensual but it still seems to me that other forms of evidence may be equally relevant.

I noticed that the SA coroner has determined that the police report into the victim’s death is inadequate and has directed that further investigations be made.

I had another look at the Four Corners report and it would make me very uncomfortable if Porter was in close proximity to any of my female family members.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 04, 2021, 11:09:15 AM
I had another look at the Four Corners report and it would make me very uncomfortable if Porter was in close proximity to any of my female family members.
I'd be cautious, it looks to me like the media have mashed together a series of rumours, but all built form the same basic premise but distorted in a pass the message manner. The tell for me is that the reports in the main stream media seem to contradict.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 04, 2021, 02:10:53 PM
Looks like developments on this front.  Hmmm ....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 04, 2021, 02:21:48 PM
It’s interesting that murder charges proceed without the victim but rape cases can’t.

I know that the rape victim’s testimony is important in establishing whether or not the act was consensual but it still seems to me that other forms of evidence may be equally relevant.

I noticed that the SA coroner has determined that the police report into the victim’s death is inadequate and has directed that further investigations be made.

I had another look at the Four Corners report and it would make me very uncomfortable if Porter was in close proximity to any of my female family members.
Agree, watching Porter is uncomfortable and I just kept thinking of that poor girl/woman and her sad passing and what her family are going through with all this rehash of events. The age factor bothers me ....
ScoMo has a few issues on his plate with his bonehead minister Linda Reynolds making some offensive comments that have come to light about the parliment staffer who also claims to have been raped.The Minister should resign IMO based on her comments..disgraceful, I wouldnt want my children working in any parliamentary dept based on her attitude.
I dont have a lot of confidence the truth will come out in any of the above and I just expected better in this day and age...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 04, 2021, 02:42:50 PM
I'd be cautious, it looks to me like the media have mashed together a series of rumours, but all built form the same basic premise but distorted in a pass the message manner. The tell for me is that the reports in the main stream media seem to contradict.

The Four Corners report is based on the observations of folk who worked and/or were associated with Porter and on things he wrote or said and are on public record.  Rumours aren't part of the Four Corners narrative.  We know Turnbull warned Porter about his inappropriate behaviour with young women and Turnbull must have know that it was Porter when he called on the then unnamed Minister to own up and explain his relationship with the victim.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 04, 2021, 02:47:02 PM
Agree, watching Porter is uncomfortable and I just kept thinking of that poor girl/woman and her sad passing and what her family are going through with all this rehash of events. The age factor bothers me ....
ScoMo has a few issues on his plate with his bonehead minister Linda Reynolds making some offensive comments that have come to light about the parliment staffer who also claims to have been raped.The Minister should resign IMO based on her comments..disgraceful, I wouldnt want my children working in any parliamentary dept based on her attitude.
I dont have a lot of confidence the truth will come out in any of the above and I just expected better in this day and age...


It is a toxic workplace EB.  The behaviour and attitudes of those at the top of the foodchain do little to inspire respect and common decency among run of the mill MPs and the staffers.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 04, 2021, 05:44:22 PM
https://theconversation.com/can-scott-morrisons-rhetorical-style-cut-through-the-rising-tide-of-anger-156220
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on March 04, 2021, 06:13:02 PM
So Dutton chimes in with the comment, on Porter's media appearance, "...a good performance..." :o

One of the most incisive and pertinent comments I read a few posts back was from David (DJC), referring to the fact that a court case can go ahead for murder but not a deceased alleged rape victim, or words to that effect. So many in our world have absolutely no comprehension as to the on-going, dreadful impact of rape on a any human being.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 04, 2021, 06:37:35 PM
Agree, watching Porter is uncomfortable and I just kept thinking of that poor girl/woman and her sad passing and what her family are going through with all this rehash of events. The age factor bothers me ....
ScoMo has a few issues on his plate with his bonehead minister Linda Reynolds making some offensive comments that have come to light about the parliment staffer who also claims to have been raped.The Minister should resign IMO based on her comments..disgraceful, I wouldnt want my children working in any parliamentary dept based on her attitude.
I dont have a lot of confidence the truth will come out in any of the above and I just expected better in this day and age...

This scandal will bring Scomo down, you watch.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 04, 2021, 08:02:37 PM
We'll hear more, that's for certain.

I still hate our Federal Government centralized in CBR.   Drag 'em out and force them to live among real people.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on March 04, 2021, 10:37:40 PM
There are no winners here.

The problem is that the vast majority of assault allegations are probably true.
What reason would you put yourself through the associated trauma of investigation and trial if they weren't true
Two reasons only....in an unstable mind you believe the assault did occur or revenge/vindictiveness.
The woman involved has taken her own life...apparently shortly after she said she didn't want to proceed with the allegation, so you would have to think that this episode had a profound effect on her subsequent actions.

On the other hand if you're innocent of  such an allegation, your life and career are virtually over.
Imagine the feeling you would have if you were accused of something like that and it hadn't occurred.
In the court of public opinion you're already tried and convicted.
Porter's position is untenable.
He's a marked man...investigation or not.
Mentally he's shot and he has no future.
Folks have already made up their minds.

For Morrison he's damaged by his inaction... but what would an independent investigation establish?
There are two people who know what happened some thirty  years ago.
One is dead, the other vehemently denies the events occurred....everything else is second hand.
Folks making judgements based on body language or past perceptions should carry little weight because these could well be based on personal bias or negative interactions with the individual.
In the end such an enquiry may make a determination of likely guilt...the  decision would probably be based on a much looser form of evidence than a criminal trial.
But having already determined there is no case would the police look at further action...doubtful!

Bottom line is that a woman has taken her life, Porter (guilty or not) is forever marked, Morrison is left damaged....you can only imagine at the distress of the poor woman's family.

The thing that concerns me is that we're left with this dilemma.
We have to have a system that allows victims of sexual assault to feel comfortable in coming forward with their allegations...and have an expectation of receiving a fair hearing and justice.
On the other hand we're heading towards a situation where an allegation alone is enough to destroy a career, mental health and in some cases a life.
I don't know how you manage that.

No winners.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 04, 2021, 11:08:18 PM
Perfect summary Lods.  No way out of this for anyone
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 04, 2021, 11:10:24 PM
I think we should be careful about assumptions of the victim's cause of death.  The SA Coroner has ordered the police to conduct further enquiries under the guidance of Counsel assisting the Coroner.  The Coroner has also indicated that an inquest may be held into her death.  If that does happen, it could effectively become an inquiry into Porter's role in the matter.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Micky0 on March 04, 2021, 11:52:09 PM
I thought Toby Abbott was the worst PM we could ever have thrown at us, but Scumo continues to show his utter inability to be a good leader, heck, a good person.

Reynolds, Dutton, Tudge, Porter - awful people.

It’s sad that Australian Federal Politics has become so crap - hopefully big big changes are coming.  It is time for this collective bag if crap to be dumped.

Re the allegation, can’t imagine why anyone would make something up 30+ years ago and never really do anything about it, except be tortured by it over 3 decades, personally. Why would someone do that? The 4 corners report included a barrister that is in the same work circles as myself and I have it on very good authority she had absolutely zero to gain in coming forward to tell what she knew of Porter and his disregard for women.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on March 05, 2021, 06:39:50 AM
@ Lods

Great post. Also we, as a society, are losers in that we are unable to provide justice for a victim of a terrible crime whilst also safeguarding the principle of innocent until proven guilty and avoiding trial by media/mob.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 05, 2021, 06:35:32 PM
https://theconversation.com/kathleen-folbiggs-children-likely-died-of-natural-causes-not-murder-heres-the-evidence-my-team-found-156487

Amazing on a few fronts.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 08, 2021, 04:35:30 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/16/france-centuries-old-oaks-rebuild-spire-notre-dame-fire-trees

I like the French, and I've been a Francophile for ages, but like my position on Robert Walls, I'm starting to have second thoughts.

This is stupid.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 08, 2021, 05:07:54 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/16/france-centuries-old-oaks-rebuild-spire-notre-dame-fire-trees

I like the French, and I've been a Francophile for ages, but like my position on Robert Walls, I'm starting to have second thoughts.

This is stupid.
What's the issue Pauly? This is an exception to the rule I would imagine, an exception for something of historical significance such as Notre Dame. I could understand why they want to restore/rebuild it with aged oak. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 08, 2021, 05:23:33 PM
What's the issue Pauly? This is an exception to the rule I would imagine, an exception for something of historical significance such as Notre Dame. I could understand why they want to restore/rebuild it with aged oak. Am I missing something?

Partly personal opinion about materials and architecture, and partly about cutting down 1000 trees that are hundreds of years old. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 08, 2021, 05:34:36 PM
Partly personal opinion about materials and architecture, and partly about cutting down 1000 trees that are hundreds of years old. 
Fair enough. I must say, having a been to France a number of of times, when you go through the small towns and rural areas, they are very good with their green space management and forests. But I take your point.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 08, 2021, 07:35:47 PM
Didn't the Queen do the same thing after the 1992 Windsor Castle fire and her annus horribilis?  No-one objected to that and IMHO, same applies to Notre Dame.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on March 08, 2021, 08:46:14 PM
Notre Dame is an icon of western culture and should be restored to its former glory imo. Having visited it about 10 years ago, I was devastated when the fire occurred. It's a great shame that many ancient and proud oaks will have to be sacrificed but sometimes we need to do painful things. Over time those trees can be replaced.

Vivre la France!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 08, 2021, 09:37:26 PM
Partly personal opinion about materials and architecture, and partly about cutting down 1000 trees that are hundreds of years old.
 
I'm afraid @PaulP‍ religion has no morals, if some religious holiday said eat wild turtles, they'd eat them to the very last and anyone resisting would be racist, ......................... hang on! :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 08, 2021, 09:44:53 PM
There is such a thing as sustainable logging.  So long as each oak cut down is replaced with a new one (say 2 for good measure)  then what's the issue?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on March 08, 2021, 09:47:37 PM
There is such a thing as sustainable logging.  So long as each oak cut down is replaced with a new one (say 2 for good measure)  then what's the issue?

I don't disagree with you, but playing devils advocate.

Thats like knocking down an old house in the inner suburbs and replacing them with 2 townhouses.

Its not quite the same. ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 08, 2021, 09:50:51 PM
There is such a thing as sustainable logging.  So long as each oak cut down is replaced with a new one (say 2 for good measure)  then what's the issue?
 Why not source plantation oak, it already exists but it's foreign but it's British plantations, are the French prejudice against British Oak?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on March 08, 2021, 09:53:19 PM
I don't disagree with you, but playing devils advocate.

Thats like knocking down an old house in the inner suburbs and replacing them with 2 townhouses.

Its not quite the same. ;)

Gee, I hope they don't call in A.V. Jennings to knock down Notre Dame and put up a couple of prefabbed hot gospelling halls!!  :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 08, 2021, 09:53:42 PM
I don't disagree with you, but playing devils advocate.

Thats like knocking down an old house in the inner suburbs and replacing them with 2 townhouses.

Its not quite the same. ;)

Not quite, the oak tree only has a life of 100 to 300 years if they cut closer to the 250 year mark then effectively this is sustainable logging in practice.

Beats the last reason they cut them down which was for the grandeur of the French fleet.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 08, 2021, 09:54:59 PM
Not quite, the oak tree only has a life of 100 to 300 years if they cut closer to the 250 year mark then effectively this is sustainable logging in practice.

Beats the last reason they cut them down which was for the grandeur of the French fleet.
They can harvest them from somewhere they aren't native, from somewhere they were deliberately imported to preserve a supply of timber for ship building.

They're not native to Melbourne, and they are cutting down 100 year old trees left right and centre to kill off a foreign beetle. FFS, to Melbourne Greenies Oaks are a pest species, they wanted them cut down last year to preserve a concrete carbon reducing bike path from root damage!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on March 08, 2021, 09:55:53 PM
Why not source plantation oak, it already exists but it's foreign but it's British plantations, are the French prejudice against British Oak?

Tudor monarchs had most of the oak forests of southern England felled to build their warships. Notre Dame would be a somewhat nobler cause.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 08, 2021, 10:00:03 PM
If those up in arms read the last two paragraphs of this article I think they might change their tune.

We have people who own over 600 acres of French forests lining up to donate and are happy to be associated.

Considering we are talking about 1000 trees of a very specific size, I think they'll happily have this covered.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 08, 2021, 10:40:57 PM
Tudor monarchs had most of the oak forests of southern England felled to build their warships. Notre Dame would be a somewhat nobler cause.
Britain felled a fair chunk of Australia's forests as well back in the day, Vic Ash was prized for ship building and Britain needed timber! A lot of other local timbers were just turned into charcoal and shipped back.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 09, 2021, 10:18:51 AM
Partly personal opinion about materials and architecture, and partly about cutting down 1000 trees that are hundreds of years old. 

They are plantation trees that were intended to be harvested Paul.  I don’t really see a problem, provided their loss is offset by more plantings.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 09, 2021, 11:19:48 AM
The information that is publicly available is not thorough, so it's hard to be definitive. But the best I can determine is as follows :

1. The trees are coming from old growth forests. The number of such forests is significantly less now than when the Cathedral was built, and together with obvious knowledge about climate change and the benefits of such forests, the French should be looking elsewhere.
2. Everything that needs to be achieved can be achieved by using materials that don't come from old growth forests. All the structural integrity, all the beauty, all the fireproofing, all the intricacy can be achieved by other means.
3. There's a lot more that goes on in forests other than trees. They are full blown ecosystems in every sense of the word.
4. There is no logic in the sustainable logging argument. We could also argue that the world is overcrowded, so therefore we should knock off all those over 80, because they'll be dead soon anyway. Sustainable sapien management.
5. This is simply a vote buying exercise by Emmanuel Macarone - he doesn't want to be seen as the cheapskate who shortchanged a national treasure.
6. There is a line of thinking from William Morris, through John Ruskin, Carlo Scarpa and others, that openly frowns upon slavish imitation / reconstruction of heritage items. From the manifesto of the SPAB (Society for the Preservation of Ancient Buildings), written in 1877 by Morris, Philip Webb and others, right through to own own Burra Charter, the very conditions of the time give materials and the working and usage of those materials a unique flavour that cannot be convincingly replicated later. Those of us who remember the faux convict bricks from the 80's will know exactly what I mean - they look empty and humbug because that's exactly what they are. We build for our time, with our knowledge, our materials, our skills and our circumstances.

At least that's how I see it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on March 09, 2021, 11:56:33 AM
My understanding is that younger trees 'suck in' more CO2 than older ones.  Obviously, younger trees and forests don't have as great an ecosystem.

There is a difference between French, US, Russian oak - just ask the winemakers and whiskey makers!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 09, 2021, 12:22:28 PM
Not “old growth” Paul, old plantations that were established to provide timber for wooden warships.

I don’t believe “old growth” forests are a thing in much of Western Europe.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 09, 2021, 01:09:17 PM
The information that is publicly available is not thorough, so it's hard to be definitive. But the best I can determine is as follows :

1. The trees are coming from old growth forests. The number of such forests is significantly less now than when the Cathedral was built, and together with obvious knowledge about climate change and the benefits of such forests, the French should be looking elsewhere.
2. Everything that needs to be achieved can be achieved by using materials that don't come from old growth forests. All the structural integrity, all the beauty, all the fireproofing, all the intricacy can be achieved by other means.
3. There's a lot more that goes on in forests other than trees. They are full blown ecosystems in every sense of the word.
4. There is no logic in the sustainable logging argument. We could also argue that the world is overcrowded, so therefore we should knock off all those over 80, because they'll be dead soon anyway. Sustainable sapien management.
5. This is simply a vote buying exercise by Emmanuel Macarone - he doesn't want to be seen as the cheapskate who shortchanged a national treasure.
6. There is a line of thinking from William Morris, through John Ruskin, Carlo Scarpa and others, that openly frowns upon slavish imitation / reconstruction of heritage items. From the manifesto of the SPAB (Society for the Preservation of Ancient Buildings), written in 1877 by Morris, Philip Webb and others, right through to own own Burra Charter, the very conditions of the time give materials and the working and usage of those materials a unique flavour that cannot be convincingly replicated later. Those of us who remember the faux convict bricks from the 80's will know exactly what I mean - they look empty and humbug because that's exactly what they are. We build for our time, with our knowledge, our materials, our skills and our circumstances.

At least that's how I see it.
Thanks for that Pauly.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 09, 2021, 01:57:01 PM
Not “old growth” Paul, old plantations that were established to provide timber for wooden warships.

I don’t believe “old growth” forests are a thing in much of Western Europe.

We can argue about what constitutes "old growth" but wikipedia still lists several old growth forests in France, a number of which include Oak species.

The flying buttresses were great structural innovations (there's debate about whether they started as that, or evolved into it). Instead of simply copying the massive walls and small openings of Romanesque architecture, the Gothic builders tried advancing the form. The walls were no longer load bearing, and thus not only became thinner, but also allowed for more glass, in larger openings. Part of the inspiration for this was indeed the forest - flying buttresses mimicking the trees, and the glass mimicking the light between the tree canopies.

The French should take a cue from those masons and builders.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 09, 2021, 02:55:56 PM
https://theconversation.com/5-ways-to-spot-if-someone-is-trying-to-mislead-you-when-it-comes-to-science-138814

Well worth reading IMO.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 09, 2021, 03:00:36 PM
https://theconversation.com/why-pope-franciss-historic-trip-to-iraq-was-a-mission-of-peace-over-politics-156647

I like what i see from this guy, but I can't figure out if he's the real deal or simply the velvet glove over the iron fist.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 09, 2021, 06:23:06 PM
https://theconversation.com/5-ways-to-spot-if-someone-is-trying-to-mislead-you-when-it-comes-to-science-138814

Well worth reading IMO.
I'm afraid this article uses the very same tactics he criticises, there are a lot of good resources for scientists to use while framing outreach and public commentary, this article might not be one of them! Maybe the author is taking the piss!

He doesn't even match written commentary to the headlines, example;

4. Overly simplistic explanations
.........................
Conspiracy theories, such as the one suggesting 5G is the cause of COVID-19, take off because they offer a simple explanation for something frightening and complex. This particular claim also feeds into concerns some people may have about new technologies.

As a general rule, when something appears too good or too bad to be true, it usually is.

I'm particularly disturbed by 3. Reference to ‘the science not being settled’. Science is never settled, consensus based on current evidence and understanding can be achieved, but the science is never settled.

If science was settled we(humanity) would be able to predict the future of many events with near perfection, but good science always reports facts in terms of probabilities not certainties!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 09, 2021, 10:41:40 PM
I'm afraid this article uses the very same tactics he criticises.

You can say that again.  Ridiculous hypocrisy and reeks of patronising condescension.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on March 10, 2021, 09:46:46 AM
https://theconversation.com/5-ways-to-spot-if-someone-is-trying-to-mislead-you-when-it-comes-to-science-138814

Well worth reading IMO.

The article's author, Hassan Vally, I believe, means well... but we have an epidemiologist attempting to unpack and explain narcissistic behaviour. He's better leaving that to someone/people well trained in the 'tactics' and 'strategies' of the narcissist or narcissistic behaviour. It's not something that can be simplistically bullet-pointed to 5 strategies.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 11, 2021, 12:07:14 PM
The Notre Dame spire that burned down in 2019 is not even the original spire. The original spire became so damaged over a few centuries that it was removed - the removal was completed in 1792. The Cathedral remained "spireless" for decades until a new spire was completed in 1859. I guess it wasn't a big deal back then to leave the Cathedral without a spire for ages.

I object on principle to what is in my view a needless destruction of beautiful old trees to replace a replica.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 11, 2021, 12:29:28 PM
The Notre Dame spire that burned down in 2019 is not even the original spire. The original spire became so damaged over a few centuries that it was removed - the removal was completed in 1792. The Cathedral remained "spireless" for decades until a new spire was completed in 1859. I guess it wasn't a big deal back then to leave the Cathedral without a spire for ages.

I object on principle to what is in my view a needless destruction of beautiful old trees to replace a replica.

Interesting.

Just for context France back then:

In 1789 the estates general was held leading to a period know as the French revolution which lasted until roughly 1799, and in the process, the French monarchy was overthrown.  I imagine a spire was indeed quite irrelevant for the people at the time.

In 1792 was the proclamation of the first French republic.

Quote
Revolution and the church

Historian John McManners argues "in eighteenth-century France, throne and altar were commonly spoken of as in close alliance; their simultaneous collapse ... would one day provide the final proof of their interdependence." One suggestion is that after a century of persecution, some French Protestants actively supported an anti-Catholic regime, a resentment fuelled by Enlightenment thinkers such as Voltaire.[64] Philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau wrote it was "manifestly contrary to the law of nature... that a handful of people should gorge themselves with superfluities while the hungry multitude goes in want of necessities."[65]
In this caricature, monks and nuns enjoy their new freedom after the decree of 16 February 1790.

The Revolution caused a massive shift of power from the Catholic Church to the state; although the extent of religious belief has been questioned, elimination of tolerance for religious minorities meant by 1789 being French also meant being Catholic.[66] The church was the largest individual landowner in France, controlling nearly 10% of all estates and levied tithes, effectively a 10% tax on income, collected from peasant farmers in the form of crops. In return, it provided a minimal level of social support.[67]

This would have been remarkable given the climate of France at the time, and explains the reason why it took them so long to restore the spire.

Even so, it fails to take into account that tourism is extremely important, and Notre Dame, would be one of the Parisian highlights and must do's.  I think its important we not underestimate this fact.  You are free to object on principle, but just for context, Australia during that period wasnt even a fledgling nation, it was a penal colony.

There has been an immense amount of change from 1900 to today, so thinking that the previous 100 years had very little change is fraught with danger.


Its not like they are Brazil setting fire to the Amazon in order to increase the amount of farmable land.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 11, 2021, 01:06:54 PM
The Notre Dame spire that burned down in 2019 is not even the original spire. The original spire became so damaged over a few centuries that it was removed - the removal was completed in 1792. The Cathedral remained "spireless" for decades until a new spire was completed in 1859. I guess it wasn't a big deal back then to leave the Cathedral without a spire for ages.

I object on principle to what is in my view a needless destruction of beautiful old trees to replace a replica.
Humanity and society are not witnesses beyond a lifetime.

Just curious @PaulP‍ , if the Oak came from plantations and not old growth forests would it be OK, even if those plantations are 100 or more years old, or is cutting down any living 100 year old tree morally offensive?

If so where to on green sustainability, we are told these days to use wood, paper bags, paper straws, paper fibre based cutlery, etc., etc.?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 11, 2021, 01:17:32 PM
Humanity and society are not witnesses beyond a lifetime.

Just curious @PaulP‍ , if the Oak came from plantations and not old growth forests would it be OK, even if those plantations are 100 or more years old, or is cutting down any living one hundred year old tree morally offensive?

If so where to on green sustainability, we are told these days to use wood, paper bags, paper straws, paper based cutlery, etc., etc.!

My first preference would be a worldwide architectural / engineering competition calling for inventive, innovative solutions that both reflect the contemporary situation and advance the discipline further. Failing that, using recycled wood would be a much better option. I'm sure the French government can marshall its considerable resources to source top notch recycled wood. This type of approach has the potential to achieve a domino effect, and become a touchtone, a reference project for how such issues may be handled in the future.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on March 11, 2021, 01:26:34 PM
Much of the timber in my house is recycled.  However it does present its own challenges in that you are limited to what is available and what you can get. This can result in a lot of extra work in tailoring it to suit and can add quite a bit of extra cost and time. If it were used more generally then I would think supplies would be rapidly exhausted and in the meantime the demand for the skills required to work with it would skyrocket. All worth it though on a limited scale.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 11, 2021, 01:41:07 PM
My first preference would be a worldwide architectural / engineering competition calling for inventive, innovative solutions that both reflect the contemporary situation and advance the discipline further. Failing that, using recycled wood would be a much better option. I'm sure the French government can marshall its considerable resources to source top notch recycled wood. This type of approach has the potential to achieve a domino effect, and become a touchtone, a reference project for how such issues may be handled in the future.
@PaulP You'll forgive me for asking though, but I suspect your perspective comes from more than just a spire on a single cathedral, what of the bigger picture?

Is there an acceptable solution?

If they went down your preferred competition path and the green answer was cutting 100 year old plantation oaks, is that accepted?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 11, 2021, 05:41:37 PM
@PaulP You'll forgive me for asking though, but I suspect your perspective comes from more than just a spire on a single cathedral, what of the bigger picture?

Is there an acceptable solution?

If they went down your preferred competition path and the green answer was cutting 100 year old plantation oaks, is that accepted?

I think the bigger picture is that the French could use this as an opportunity to do something more than a rebuild, and use it as an opportunity to move beyond a fairly staid tired provincialism.

Plantation oaks would be a last resort IMO.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 11, 2021, 05:43:05 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2021/mar/11/forcing-job-seekers-to-move-is-not-just-bad-policy-it-does-nothing-to-address-the-economys-real-problems

Another neoliberal substituting talkback and water cooler [email protected] with actual policy.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on March 11, 2021, 06:00:06 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2021/mar/11/forcing-job-seekers-to-move-is-not-just-bad-policy-it-does-nothing-to-address-the-economys-real-problems

Another neoliberal substituting talkback and water cooler [email protected] with actual policy.

Holy mackerel. What's next? Bringing back the Stolen Generation policy... for the good of Indigenous Aussies, of course!

This adversarial attitude toward the unemployed is disappointing. Yes, there are 'bludgers' but they are such a small % of unemployed. Just one 'what about' would be what this approach could do to families? Communities? So arrogant, so ignorant, so narrow.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 11, 2021, 06:39:42 PM
Holy mackerel. What's next? Bringing back the Stolen Generation policy... for the good of Indigenous Aussies, of course!

This adversarial attitude toward the unemployed is disappointing. Yes, there are 'bludgers' but they are such a small % of unemployed. Just one 'what about' would be what this approach could do to families? Communities? So arrogant, so ignorant, so narrow.

The amount of taxpayer money stolen by those at the bottom end, i.e those ghastly "welfare cheats" (yawn.....), is a trifle compared to the taxpayer money stolen by those at the top end.

In the 60's and 70's, most individual income tax was paid by the wealthy, based on the shocking logic that those have more should contribute more. This has shifted dramatically in the last 40 years, with a few negative implications, at least for us poor, suffering slobs.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 12, 2021, 08:43:49 PM
Anyone know a good roofing plumber down the Mornington Peninsula? Got a tricky flashing/guttering problem I need resolved.
Any info would be appreciated.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 12, 2021, 09:00:32 PM
The amount of taxpayer money stolen by those at the bottom end, i.e those ghastly "welfare cheats" (yawn.....), is a trifle compared to the taxpayer money stolen by those at the top end.

In the 60's and 70's, most individual income tax was paid by the wealthy, based on the shocking logic that those have more should contribute more. This has shifted dramatically in the last 40 years, with a few negative implications, at least for us poor, suffering slobs.

Along with bracket creep
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on March 12, 2021, 10:39:58 PM
Capcom, what about bracket creep?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on April 07, 2021, 12:52:10 PM
I got to about 20 minutes, and stopped watching. Frightening and very depressing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4mDx2XitJw&t=3s
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on April 13, 2021, 08:08:52 PM
Just watched one of Richard Wolff's latest videos. Apparently the Democrats (read : Sanders) proposal to introduce a $15/hour minimum wage has been defeated twice in congress. It's been watered down such that the increase will occur incrementally - the $15 will only be reached by 2025. Apparently 8 Democrats crossed the floor to vote with the GOP.

The current US minimum wage is $7.25/hr, among the lowest in the industrialised world. Joke of a country.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on April 13, 2021, 10:32:45 PM
Just watched one of Richard Wolff's latest videos. Apparently the Democrats (read : Sanders) proposal to introduce a $15/hour minimum wage has been defeated twice in congress. It's been watered down such that the increase will occur incrementally - the $15 will only be reached by 2025. Apparently 8 Democrats crossed the floor to vote with the GOP.

The current US minimum wage is $7.25/hr, among the lowest in the industrialised world. Joke of a country.
I believe that the state can have their own 'minimum wage' over and above what is mandated.

Not sure how many states pay overs, but it does occur.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 04, 2021, 07:58:26 AM
And the media keep telling you, money buys you happiness!

Bill and Melinda Gates split!
https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/bill-gates-and-melinda-gates-to-end-their-marriage-20210504-p57om4.html
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 04, 2021, 08:48:29 AM
Surely he must have had some Intel on this ....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: deepbluesee on May 05, 2021, 09:47:59 PM
ABC show 'You can't ask that' this week featured AFL and NRL ex players. Well worth a look. Some tough Qs and very open and honest answers. Brock McClean was one of the ex players
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on May 05, 2021, 10:47:32 PM
ABC show 'You can't ask that' this week featured AFL and NRL ex players. Well worth a look. Some tough Qs and very open and honest answers. Brock McClean was one of the ex players

Not a show I normally watch but I did tonight and I thought it was great.  The footballers were all honest, articulate and interesting.

From a Carlton perspective, Brock’s admissions about depression, bulimia, drinking and drug abuse were concerning but not surprising.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Micky0 on May 05, 2021, 11:40:14 PM
ABC show 'You can't ask that' this week featured AFL and NRL ex players. Well worth a look. Some tough Qs and very open and honest answers. Brock McClean was one of the ex players
Just watched it - excellent!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 06, 2021, 02:12:22 PM
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/faithful-morrison-says-one-thing-but-does-another-20210505-p57p4l.html
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 06, 2021, 06:45:16 PM
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/faithful-morrison-says-one-thing-but-does-another-20210505-p57p4l.html

Had a good chuckle as I read this article this arvo.

ScoMo - the very definition of hypocrisy, which the article from J Hewson articulates very well.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: flyboy77 on May 06, 2021, 09:43:27 PM
Had a good chuckle as I read this article this arvo.

ScoMo - the very definition of hypocrisy, which the article from J Hewson articulates very well.

He's a dud, no question, yet miles ahead of Albo.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on May 06, 2021, 10:25:35 PM
Fly - it's a problem when oppositions of any persuasion are no good.  Incompetent govs can get away with too much.  It will be interesting to see what happens in WA over the next 15 years.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 06, 2021, 10:32:31 PM
I wouldn't confine it to WA @dodge .... seems everyone is getting it in the neck :)

Fine by me.  They all deserve it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on May 06, 2021, 11:47:44 PM
Agree
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 07, 2021, 08:10:47 AM
All Australian Gov are mired in archaic practises, it's like they use training data from the 1800s to become a politician.

The biggest tell is that both major sides think there is a future in digging shizen out of the ground and selling cheaper than the nearest competitors!

I had to laugh when Boris told Scotty to dump coal and build nuclear, he should have told Scotty to build a spine first!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on May 07, 2021, 08:24:14 AM
Had a good chuckle as I read this article this arvo.

ScoMo - the very definition of hypocrisy, which the article from J Hewson articulates very well.

You have to wonder at the thought processes the religious right must wrestle with to justify policies and actions that conflict with their faith.  I guess it depends on how perverted their particular brand of religion has become.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 07, 2021, 10:24:23 AM
He's a dud, no question, yet miles ahead of Albo.
The thought of an Albo or Shorten being our leader makes me physically ill.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 07, 2021, 10:34:54 AM
You have to wonder at the thought processes the religious right must wrestle with to justify policies and actions that conflict with their faith.  I guess it depends on how perverted their particular brand of religion has become.


Very flexible morality!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 07, 2021, 10:37:15 AM
As sadly pathetic and unelectable as those two clowns are, imagine Karen Rudd or Turnbull @Gointocarlton    
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 07, 2021, 10:39:50 AM
As sadly pathetic and unelectable as those two clowns are, imagine Karen Rudd or Turnbull @Gointocarlton    
Rudd had a head I just want to smack. Turnbull turned into a bigger imbecile than he already was.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 07, 2021, 10:57:39 AM
I hope Rudd's and Turnbull's demands for a Murdoch Royal Commission are successful.

Rudd had pretty decent policies IMO. His demeanour can be a little grating, but that should never be a factor in how you vote.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 07, 2021, 11:17:28 AM
Rudd had a head I just want to smack. Turnbull turned into a bigger imbecile than he already was.

They're both very sick attention seeking puppies.  
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 07, 2021, 11:43:49 AM
Nothing like politics to polarise folks!

I recall a quote from Einstein that I'll paraphrase, it went something like, 'when someone is blindly loyal to any political party or ideology they no longer need their brain as they will think what they're told to think (by that political party or ideology leader). All they require is a brain stem to breath, walk and eat.' He had a similar opinion for those who declared themselves, 'patriots.'

When I think of Albo, ScoMo, Dutton, Shorten, Cash... etc., all I see are shallow opportunists.

Although I may not agree entirely with their ideologies, I do see (saw) sincerity and a genuine concern for all Aussies from Rudd, Howard, Turnbull, Hawke and a few others. None were perfect.

But I think that the bottom line is that, globally, there are very few 'real' leaders... people of vision, altruism, business acumen, superior negotiation skills, courage and genuine substance. Dare I say that in the modern world we tend to see more boldness and vision from women leaders!!! (Except M. Cash - shallowness and simplistic thinking personified).
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 07, 2021, 11:56:59 AM
Einstein was in favour of Socialism.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 07, 2021, 12:00:05 PM
This is his famous essay, first published in 1949, entitled "Why Socialism ?"

https://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 07, 2021, 12:23:50 PM
@PaulP‍ Would you say socialism has roots in some very fundamental religious principles?

I often think about this when I see the likes of ScoMo preach liberal policies, while worshipping socially.

Of course some may claim perhaps what ScoMo and his like really worship, is the business of religion, the capitalist version! This seems to be a philosophical debate that plays out in all religions, I've seen it play out first hand during my years of schooling, and subsequently when some school friends entered then exited the clergy. Victorians might see this demonstrated in the behavioural differences between for example Rev George Pell and Father Bob Macguire.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 07, 2021, 12:53:50 PM
Einstein was in favour of Socialism.

Yes, but it was really inspired by humanitarianism which was a great passion of his. Circa 1932 Albert could see what was happening in Germany and started a movement, of sorts, to promote humanitarianism as a way to short-circuit growing nationalism & Hitler. After a fair while, he had 3 signatures! He packed his bags and went to the US at the end of the year.

Highly intelligent (IQ & EI) folks can envision the natural consequences of certain behaviours/movements, generally well before the rank and file.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 07, 2021, 12:54:12 PM
Would you say socialism has roots in some very fundamental religious principles?

I often think about this when I see the likes of ScoMo preach liberal policies, while worshipping socially.

Of course some may claim perhaps what ScoMo and his like really worship, is the business of religion, the capitalist version!

I'm only familiar with Christianity, so I can't comment on others. Also, I don't really like the word "fundamental" when used in religious discussions, for obvious reasons.

I'm not a practising Christian, and haven't been for 30 years. But I do take an interest in contemporary Biblical scholarship. That one simple word "religion" covers an enormous amount of territory. The Bible consists of 66 books (73 in the Catholic version), written over a 1000 year period. Many of the authors are unknown, and whomever they were had no idea they were writing something that would end up in the Bible. Various groups, councils, individuals etc. came together in the early days of Christianity to formalise the faith and put together the books that ended up in the Bible. There are libraries solely dedicated to this history, and suffice to say this isn't the time or place to delve too deeply into this (even if I was familiar with this history, which I'm not, except for the sketchiest of outlines).

One of the problems with the Bible is that it is very uneven, very contradictory. If you want to be literal or bend the rules of interpretation, you can find a quote to justify anything. It's well documented that the Bible has been used to justify slavery, subordination of women, and a whole lot more. But Christianity has done a lot of good. As H. Richard Niebuhr said, religion is a good thing for good people, and a bad thing for bad people.

Getting back to your original question, one could posit a link between socialist ideals and an aspect of Christianity known as the Social Gospel, but I'm not sure that organised Socialist or Communist countries had much use for or interest in religion.

I'm no fan of the ScoMo take on religion, which unfortunately is very common. I think it's infantile. Progressive Christianity tries to emphasise orthopraxy (what you do) rather than orthodoxy (what you believe). I'm not much interested in whether someone believes in the Virgin Birth, or the physical resurrection of Jesus. I'm interested in what they're doing to make the world a better place.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 07, 2021, 12:55:50 PM
Yes, but it was really inspired by humanitarianism which was a great passion of his. Circa 1932 Albert could see what was happening in Germany and started a movement, of sorts, to promote humanitarianism as a way to short-circuit growing nationalism & Hitler. After a fair while, he had 3 signatures! He packed his bags and went to the US at the end of the year.

Highly intelligent (IQ & EI) folks can envision the natural consequences of certain behaviours/movements, generally well before the rank and file.
He perhaps expressed or actioned some significant philosophical contradictions in his life as well.

He's is / was far from a favourite in some circles, something many forgive due to his other achievements.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 07, 2021, 12:59:37 PM

I'm no fan of the ScoMo take on religion, which unfortunately is very common. I think it's infantile. Progressive Christianity tries to emphasise orthopraxy (what you do) rather than orthodoxy (what you believe). I'm not much interested in whether someone believes in the Virgin Birth, or the physical resurrection of Jesus. I'm interested in what they're doing to make the world a better place.
Actions taking precedence over words, in this we are in accord.

In regards to Einstein, the matter of the development and use of nuclear weapons is an interesting conundrum. Some refer to it as a race between two evils, not good versus evil.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 07, 2021, 01:00:08 PM
@PaulP‍ Would you say socialism has roots in some very fundamental religious principles?

I often think about this when I see the likes of ScoMo preach liberal policies, while worshipping socially.

Of course some may claim perhaps what ScoMo and his like really worship, is the business of religion, the capitalist version! This seems to be a philosophical debate that plays out in all religions, I've seen it play out first hand during my years of schooling, and subsequently when some school friends entered then exited the clergy. Victorians might see this demonstrated in the behavioural differences between for example Rev George Pell and Father Bob Macguire.[/b]

I had the great pleasure of working with Fr Bob many years ago. You are right, he is the very antithesis of Pell. If all Catholic priests were like Fr Bob the world would be a very different place. Such a down to earth, real person who understood spirituality ...deeply. And a very funny bugger too. We jousted often re footy - he's a one-eyed Rottingwood supporter.

The Church couldn't wait to retire him off, they tried a few times but the congregation outcry was too loud to ignore. He was a thorn in the Church's side with his constant reminders that the Church should be serving the community... out amongst the community... helping anyone and everyone regardless of social standing. He complained that too often priests were serving the Church, themselves and not the community - good way to be unpopular with the hierarchy.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 07, 2021, 01:17:00 PM
Liz Cambage is rallying against the White Wash of the Australian Olympic team promotions.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/basketball/cambage-threatens-tokyo-boycott-over-aoc-s-whitewashed-promo-shoots-20210507-p57prm.html

Firstly, some of the reports put this in an indigenous platform, is Cambage indigenous?

Secondly, given the photos have 7 and 10 athletes respectively, to keep things proportional we have to have 0.23% of an Indigenous person in the 7 athlete photo, and 0.33% of a Indigenous person in the 10 athlete photo. Or combined 0.56% of an Indigenous athlete across both photos.

The use of a whole disabled athlete in both is ridiculously over-representative.

Just a few weeks back I listened to a Indigenous activist from Vic Western District argue you are indigenous if we say your indigenous, and skin colour makes no difference. The debate is so full of hypocrisy I can't pretend to be interested anymore. The Cambage article asserts she tweeted that fake tan doesn't cut it, so true skin colour matters!

There is a lot of absurdity in this debate from all sides even my own! :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 07, 2021, 01:29:11 PM
Nothing like politics to polarise folks!

I recall a quote from Einstein that I'll paraphrase, it went something like, 'when someone is blindly loyal to any political party or ideology they no longer need their brain as they will think what they're told to think (by that political party or ideology leader). All they require is a brain stem to breath, walk and eat.' He had a similar opinion for those who declared themselves, 'patriots.'

When I think of Albo, ScoMo, Dutton, Shorten, Cash... etc., all I see are shallow opportunists.

Although I may not agree entirely with their ideologies, I do see (saw) sincerity and a genuine concern for all Aussies from Rudd, Howard, Turnbull, Hawke and a few others. None were perfect.

But I think that the bottom line is that, globally, there are very few 'real' leaders... people of vision, altruism, business acumen, superior negotiation skills, courage and genuine substance. Dare I say that in the modern world we tend to see more boldness and vision from women leaders!!! (Except M. Cash - shallowness and simplistic thinking personified).
Care for Aussies disappeared when Hawk stopped being PM. Howard had a little bit of care, the rest a pension benefit, attention seeking parasites that I wouldn't feed let alone vote for.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on May 07, 2021, 01:57:21 PM
Politics and politicians are mainly  about representing and looking after vested interests,  and we all know what such vested interests come down to for many people.  True altruism is a rare commodity and as Paul Keating quipped, "Never underestimate the power of self-interest".
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 07, 2021, 02:09:29 PM
Been a desert since Howard .... they just don't 'effin listen.  None of 'em.

And why?  No moral compass, just a "look at me" attitude

Zali Steggall
Sam Dastyari
Bandt
Turnbull

I could list them, but the litter tray is in need of a clean



Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on May 07, 2021, 02:10:30 PM
Liz Cambage is rallying against the White Wash of the Australian Olympic team promotions.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/basketball/cambage-threatens-tokyo-boycott-over-aoc-s-whitewashed-promo-shoots-20210507-p57prm.html

Firstly, some of the reports put this in an indigenous platform, is Cambage indigenous?

Secondly, given the photos have 7 and 10 athletes respectively, to keep things proportional we have to have 0.23% of an Indigenous person in the 7 athlete photo, and 0.33% of a Indigenous person in the 10 athlete photo. Or combined 0.56% of an Indigenous athlete across both photos.

The use of a whole disabled athlete in both is ridiculously over-representative.

Just a few weeks back I listened to a Indigenous activist from Vic Western District argue you are indigenous if we say your indigenous, and skin colour makes no difference. The debate is so full of hypocrisy I can't pretend to be interested anymore. The Cambage article asserts she tweeted that fake tan doesn't cut it, so true skin colour matters!

There is a lot of absurdity in this debate from all sides even my own! :o

I believe Cambage has Nigerian heritage.

Indigenous identity generally requires one to meet three criteria; descent from an Indigenous person, identifying as an Indigenous person and recognition as a member by an Indigenous community.  Skin colour isn't a factor and nor should it be when it's more or less a throw of the dice for folk of mixed genetic origin.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 07, 2021, 02:24:00 PM
Just goes to show the precipitous decline in politics if Howard is now considered an elder statesman. IMO, he did one rally great thing early on, which was the gun control legislation, and that was it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 07, 2021, 03:18:46 PM
Einstein was in favour of Socialism.
Spent a short time working in Russia and some of the breakaway states and a lot of the average folk from the likes of Belarus, Moldova, Estonia etc all wanted to be back in the Soviet Union. So called Freedom isnt much use when nothing works and you are starving, the replacement govts were/are more corrupt than the previous Soviet regimes.
Socialism does have its advantages depending where you are in the world.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 07, 2021, 03:24:14 PM
Spent a short time working in Russia and some of the breakaway states and a lot of the average folk from the likes of Belarus, Moldova, Estonia etc all wanted to be back in the Soviet Union. So called Freedom isnt much use when nothing works and you are starving, the replacement govts were/are more corrupt than the previous Soviet regimes.
Socialism does have its advantages depending where you are in the world.

If we humans don't address our fundamental capacity for evil and self interest, no system can be made to work. Capitalism is a mess at the moment, unless you're part of the lucky 1%.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 07, 2021, 05:43:30 PM
If we humans don't address our fundamental capacity for evil and self interest, no system can be made to work. Capitalism is a mess at the moment, unless you're part of the lucky 1%.


Yes, Pauly, we humans are indeed a most paradoxical critter. We are capable of amazing compassion and sacrifice for our fellows in times of trouble - we can band together and work together, tirelessly, for the greater good... but, sadly, it often takes a disaster or common enemy to unite us.

Equally, perhaps even moreso, we're also capable of breathtaking ignorance, narcissism and a most profound violence - to ourselves, others and our ball in the sky. I think it is the Navajo who, in their spirituality, believe that humans are born bad/evil and it is our task in life to find and adopt principles and values that unite for the common good.

If you study, as you and I have, the phenomena of the 'shadow' side of human nature -- introduced with clarity to psychology by Carl Jung -- you'd hardly be optimistic about our future. It takes an enormous amount of personal courage for any individual to so know themselves (Plato) as to understand their own shadow side. Sadly, fear abounds in our world... courage is in short supply.

Of all people, it was Ronald Reagan who once said that the only way humanity will unite is if invaded by aliens from another planet. Says a lot.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 07, 2021, 05:56:10 PM
If we humans don't address our fundamental capacity for evil and self interest, no system can be made to work. Capitalism is a mess at the moment, unless you're part of the lucky 1%.

Thomas Hobbs a philosopher of sorts in 1651 wrote,humans are not hardwired to live together in large scale political societies. We’re not naturally political animals like bees or ants, who instinctively cooperate and work together for the common good. Instead, we’re naturally self-interested and look out for ourselves first and foremost. We care about our reputation, as well as our material wellbeing, and our desire for social standing drives us into conflict as much as competition over scarce resources.
Reckon he might be right , his solution was the following...If we want to live together peacefully, Hobbes argued, we must submit ourselves to an authoritative body with the power to enforce laws and resolve conflicts. Hobbes called this the ‘sovereign’. As long as the sovereign preserves peace then we shouldn’t question or challenge its legitimacy, for that way leads back to the state of nature, the worst possible place we could find ourselves.








Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on May 07, 2021, 11:00:17 PM
I believe Cambage has Nigerian heritage.

Indigenous identity generally requires one to meet three criteria; descent from an Indigenous person, identifying as an Indigenous person and recognition as a member by an Indigenous community.  Skin colour isn't a factor and nor should it be when it's more or less a throw of the dice for folk of mixed genetic origin.

All of the above is way too deep and thoughtful and political for my liking.

I like simple.  I dont see their background, creed, gender, colour or disability when I look at Olympians.  I see a bunch of Aussies who have dedicated their lives to be the best athlete they can be.

A white can be a role model for black and vice versa and all that matters is how they conduct themselves on and off field when competing.

If we focussed more on that, and less on the rest of the crap we'd probably have happier people more often. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on May 07, 2021, 11:27:24 PM
All of the above is way too deep and thoughtful and political for my liking.

I like simple.  I dont see their background, creed, gender, colour or disability when I look at Olympians.  I see a bunch of Aussies who have dedicated their lives to be the best athlete they can be.

A white can be a role model for black and vice versa and all that matters is how they conduct themselves on and off field when competing.

If we focussed more on that, and less on the rest of the crap we'd probably have happier people more often. 

No Thry, it's just how our First Nations people define themselves.  We've taken everything else away from them so why not let them identify themselves as they choose.

Of course, I don't include Cambage's outburst in that, and her disrespect of Maurice Longbottom is appalling.  Her ignorant comments play into the hands of racists like Andrew Blot who focus on skin colour and stereotypical behaviour rather than cultural mores.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on May 08, 2021, 07:55:57 AM
I believe that humans have the inbuilt need for a sense of identity even though we exhibit a strong degree of self interest. Basically we are tribal. Trying to manage large and diverse groupings so that everyone feels a sense of fairness and justice calls for us to abandon or change some of the hard wiring that has evolved within. Maybe we have made some progress in this but the challenge certainly remains for future generations, or maybe we’ll slide backwards as existing groupings get reinforced and new groupings emerge. I don’t have the expertise to answer that but I do get a sense that we are approaching a major ideological crossroads.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 08, 2021, 08:16:42 AM
Liz Cambage is rallying against the White Wash of the Australian Olympic team promotions.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/basketball/cambage-threatens-tokyo-boycott-over-aoc-s-whitewashed-promo-shoots-20210507-p57prm.html

Firstly, some of the reports put this in an indigenous platform, is Cambage indigenous?

Secondly, given the photos have 7 and 10 athletes respectively, to keep things proportional we have to have 0.23% of an Indigenous person in the 7 athlete photo, and 0.33% of a Indigenous person in the 10 athlete photo. Or combined 0.56% of an Indigenous athlete across both photos.

The use of a whole disabled athlete in both is ridiculously over-representative.

Just a few weeks back I listened to a Indigenous activist from Vic Western District argue you are indigenous if we say your indigenous, and skin colour makes no difference. The debate is so full of hypocrisy I can't pretend to be interested anymore. The Cambage article asserts she tweeted that fake tan doesn't cut it, so true skin colour matters!

There is a lot of absurdity in this debate from all sides even my own! :o
Why do I read this stuff and think she is just a publicity and attention seeking tool? Either she is a complete flog or I am part of the racist white surpremacist regime/movement here in Australia. I know in my mind which one it is.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 08, 2021, 10:35:45 AM
Why do I read this stuff and think she is just a publicity and attention seeking tool? Either she is a complete flog or I am part of the racist white surpremacist regime/movement here in Australia. I know in my mind which one it is.
Yes, I admit I worry that another good cause is being corrupted by financial motives, claiming to be a victim or oppressed has become too profitable.

It's a bit ironic coming from Cambage, who grew up in one of Melbourne most elite and wealthy neighbourhoods, but I suggest that won't be mentioned voluntarily in the media and may even be denied or downplayed because it doesn't fi the narrative!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on May 08, 2021, 01:21:24 PM
No Thry, it's just how our First Nations people define themselves.  We've taken everything else away from them so why not let them identify themselves as they choose.

Of course, I don't include Cambage's outburst in that, and her disrespect of Maurice Longbottom is appalling.  Her ignorant comments play into the hands of racists like Andrew Blot who focus on skin colour and stereotypical behaviour rather than cultural mores.

So our first nations people aren't Australian?

So much for inclusiveness....  they will not stop until we bow down to them then??

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on May 08, 2021, 07:38:10 PM
So our first nations people aren't Australian?

So much for inclusiveness....  they will not stop until we bow down to them then??



In fact Thry, they are more Australian than everyone else.  The sooner we all recognise their unique place as the First Australians the sooner we can all move on together.

Meanwhile, Commonwealth Education Minister, Alan Tudge, is concerned that young Australians are learning too much about Indigenous Australians at school.  What a crock of sh1t!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 08, 2021, 08:29:23 PM
Meanwhile, Commonwealth Education Minister, Alan Tudge, is concerned that young Australians are learning too much about Indigenous Australians at school.  What a crock of sh1t!

Perhaps not ... but with our pathetic standards in the 3 Rs and teachers that can't even spell, maybe we'd be better off with a more rounded education in all subjects and scholarly pursuits that might well achieve higher objectives.
  
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on May 09, 2021, 08:31:04 AM
In fact Thry, they are more Australian than everyone else.  The sooner we all recognise their unique place as the First Australians the sooner we can all move on together.

Meanwhile, Commonwealth Education Minister, Alan Tudge, is concerned that young Australians are learning too much about Indigenous Australians at school.  What a crock of sh1t!

Equality will never be achieved when someone is more Australian than someone else.

For me, there is only one type of Australian.  Some have other heritage too, and thats what makes our country great, but the second we elevate someone is the second we start holding others back and granting preferential treatment.  That's the antithesis of equality.

Equality is simple.  Practise it and the issues dissappear.  The second you don't you're on the slippery slope to discrimination.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 09, 2021, 08:42:35 AM
In fact Thry, they are more Australian than everyone else.  The sooner we all recognise their unique place as the First Australians the sooner we can all move on together.

Meanwhile, Commonwealth Education Minister, Alan Tudge, is concerned that young Australians are learning too much about Indigenous Australians at school.  What a crock of sh1t!
Sack the f-wit immediately if that's true. I have maintained for a long time that we DONT LEARN ENOUGH at school about Indigenous Australia and its culture.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 09, 2021, 08:48:09 AM
Perhaps not ... but with our pathetic standards in the 3 Rs and teachers that can't even spell, maybe we'd be better off with a more rounded education in all subjects and scholarly pursuits that might well achieve higher objectives.
  
My wife and daughter are teachers, brilliant ones at that (no bias) so I wouldn't tar them all with the same brush. However, if you want to see how low the standards have plummeted and if you can bring yourself down to the level, purely for investigative purposes, watch a few episodes of Married At First Sight that just finished. There was a young lass on the series that was a teacher, good lord I wouldn't entrust her with teaching a dog/cat let alone a child.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on May 09, 2021, 09:09:50 AM
Sack the f-wit immediately if that's true. I have maintained for a long time that we DONT LEARN ENOUGH at school about Indigenous Australia and its culture.

It's an interesting subject.

I remember in my primary school days we did a fair bit of work on the "Australian aborigine".
We studied their food, shelter, weapons and food gathering utensils and art.
It was very much the 'nomadic tribal' perspective.
The urban side of things didn't get a look in

In my last years of teaching there was a significant change and depending on the area I was working there was a lot more focus on local aboriginal history. Indigenous teachers aides and elders all participated in instruction.

One of the issues I found working in Juvenile Justice where my classes were sometimes 100% indigenous (yep, Seriously over represented, but that' another topic) was that we were drawing students from all parts of the state (NSW) and there was a bit of a disconnect between kids from different areas. So lessons had to be of a general nature.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 09, 2021, 09:25:27 AM
It's an interesting subject.

I remember in my primary school days we did a fair bit of work on the "Australian aborigine".
We studied their food, shelter, weapons and food gathering utensils and art.
It was very much the 'nomadic tribal' perspective.
The urban side of things didn't get a look in

In my last years of teaching there was a significant change and depending on the area I was working there was a lot more focus on local aboriginal history. Indigenous teachers aides and elders all participated in instruction.

One of the issues I found working in Juvenile Justice where my classes were sometimes 100% indigenous (yep, Seriously over represented, but that' another topic) was that we were drawing students from all parts of the state (NSW) and there was a bit of a disconnect between kids from different areas. So lessons had to be of a general nature.
I was taught zero Lods both at Primary and High School, today I'm appalled by that fact.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 09, 2021, 09:28:32 AM
Sack the f-wit immediately if that's true. I have maintained for a long time that we DONT LEARN ENOUGH at school about Indigenous Australia and its culture.

Absofcknlutely. And as a part of the curriculum - respect. Respect for their spirituality, their arts and their culture.

I think we're heading in the right direction, and so we should be.

I still cannot fathom folks who are opposed (threatened?) by the emphasis in genuinely acknowledging our indigenous folks. All that is required is the empathy and imagination to truly put yourself in the skin of these folks... and understand what they've been through, who they are, and then, what they have to offer/share. Then acknowledge that difference is okay, in fact, good... we can learn from each other, and share our mutual gifts, then grow together allowing each to their own, surrendering the need to change and convert.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 09, 2021, 10:17:30 AM
My wife and daughter are teachers, brilliant ones at that (no bias) so I wouldn't tar them all with the same brush. However, if you want to see how low the standards have plummeted and if you can bring yourself down to the level, purely for investigative purposes, watch a few episodes of Married At First Sight that just finished. There was a young lass on the series that was a teacher, good lord I wouldn't entrust her with teaching a dog/cat let alone a child.

I wouldn't think anyone on those reality shows is a fair representation of their demographic / profession - I haven't looked into it, and nor do I intend to, but I'd bet London to a brick that all those contestants are specifically chosen because they exhibit psychopathic tendencies. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on May 09, 2021, 10:22:13 AM
I wouldn't think anyone on those reality shows is a fair representation of their demographic / profession - I haven't looked into it, and nor do I intend to, but I'd bet London to a brick that all those contestants are specifically chosen because they exhibit psychopathic tendencies.

Agree. They are all about gaining audience numbers rather than being attempts to mirror the current state of society. Personally  I never watch, if I can avoid it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on May 09, 2021, 10:54:10 AM
My wife and daughter are teachers, brilliant ones at that (no bias) so I wouldn't tar them all with the same brush. However, if you want to see how low the standards have plummeted and if you can bring yourself down to the level, purely for investigative purposes, watch a few episodes of Married At First Sight that just finished. There was a young lass on the series that was a teacher, good lord I wouldn't entrust her with teaching a dog/cat let alone a child.

My three grandsons are at primary school and their school is brilliant.  Their teachers are devoted, energetic and great at imparting knowledge and building a thirst for knowledge (helped by parents and grandparents!).  Their curriculum is much broader than it was back in my day (the dark ages) but that hasn’t hindered reading, writing and mathematics - my oldest grandson is in year 6 and is doing year 8 mathematics.  The fact that his teacher picked up the need to challenge him with more advanced mathematics speaks volumes for him and the school.

Of course there are dud teachers - I had more than my share - but most do a very hard job very well.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 09, 2021, 11:02:06 AM
My three grandsons are at primary school and their school is brilliant.  Their teachers are devoted, energetic and great at imparting knowledge and building a thirst for knowledge (helped by parents and grandparents!).  Their curriculum is much broader than it was back in my day (the dark ages) but that hasn’t hindered reading, writing and mathematics - my oldest grandson is in year 6 and is doing year 8 mathematics.  The fact that his teacher picked up the need to challenge him with more advanced mathematics speaks volumes for him and the school.

Of course there are dud teachers - I had more than my share - but most do a very hard job very well.

It's a thankless job. I think teaching kids in primary and selective high schools would be the go. If I was a teacher, I would steer clear of normal high schools. And in the public sector, having savage funding cuts year after year must take its toll after a while. It's a real credit to the teaching profession that our outcomes are at the level they are, all things considered.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 09, 2021, 11:54:12 AM
I wouldn't think anyone on those reality shows is a fair representation of their demographic / profession - I haven't looked into it, and nor do I intend to, but I'd bet London to a brick that all those contestants are specifically chosen because they exhibit psychopathic tendencies. 
Nonetheless, he occupation was a teacher and she couldn't string two words together nor pronounce them properly. Like the show, she was embarrassing.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 09, 2021, 12:44:10 PM
My wife and daughter are teachers, brilliant ones at that (no bias) so I wouldn't tar them all with the same brush. However, if you want to see how low the standards have plummeted and if you can bring yourself down to the level, purely for investigative purposes, watch a few episodes of Married At First Sight that just finished. There was a young lass on the series that was a teacher, good lord I wouldn't entrust her with teaching a dog/cat let alone a child.

I don't recall saying that nor ever implying it GTC.  I did learn about Aboriginal culture heavily in 1971 and '72 and got a 98 / A score in the Australian History Matriculation exam later that year.  And a free scholarship to University on the back of the other three "A" scores I managed in other subjects.

But I strongly object to the fantasies of Bruce Pascoe being paraded as fact.

And I was at pains to stress a well rounded education, something that is sadly lacking in today's classrooms.  God knows the number of CVs I've dismissed after a single reading because of grammar and spelling, simple math by mind, not machine ... the very basics of communication.

We have a third grade education system yet all the amenities and comforts never present when I went through high school.  We just had an abundance of quality in the teaching ranks
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on May 09, 2021, 01:48:22 PM
I don't recall saying that nor ever implying it GTC.  I did learn about Aboriginal culture heavily in 1971 and '72 and got a 98 / A score in Matriculation later that year.  And a free scholarship to University on the back of the other three "A" scores I managed in other subjects.

But I strongly object to the fantasies of Bruce Pascoe being paraded as fact.

And I was at pains to stress a well rounded education, something that is sadly lacking in today's classrooms.  God knows the number of CVs I've dismissed after a single reading because of grammar and spelling, simple math by mind, not machine ... the very basics of communication.

We have a third grade education system yet all the amenities and comforts never present when I went through high school.  We just had an abundance of quality in the teaching ranks

I have checked every primary source Pascoe cites and he has used them faithfully.

While I think that the desire to classify pre-contact Aboriginal economy as agricultural rather than hunter-gatherer is an over reaction to stereotypical views of Aboriginal people as wandering nomads, there is substantial evidence of sophisticated plant husbandry and storage and trading of surplus production.

I have worked quite a lot on the aquaculture sites in Victoria’s southwest and they provide evidence of generational planning, communal engineering, resource husbandry and social organisation that is at least as sophisticated as 19th century agricultural societies ... and that’s what should be taught in schools.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 09, 2021, 09:09:00 PM
I was taught zero Lods both at Primary and High School, today I'm appalled by that fact.
Same here, I was taught nothing about indigenous culture and my introduction to it was Syd Jackson in a Carlton jumper and two foster boys we had at the Technical School I went to. Reg and Arthur were 18 years of age in Form 4 as it was then and I had never seen an aboriginal person close up before and knew nothing about their culture. They were great cricketers and scared the crap out of other schools when we played them, no helmets, batting gloves with those green rubber spikes and Arthur pushing off the boundary bowling at a rapid rate, the other teams would hit the ball in the air just to get caught and get to safety.
But the sad reality was if it wasnt for sport I wouldnt have had any idea what they were about and they could have been from mars which is a sad reflection on the White Australia policy era.
My wifes sister is married to a part aboriginal gent and he is as white as anglo saxon me but always refers to himself jokingly as a black fella but he too had zero education in indigenous matters and he told me he was told by teachers he would be better off pretending he was fully white..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on May 10, 2021, 12:01:02 AM
I was taught at a catholic school

Remember an aboriginal man come speak to us on two occasions about the dreaming, their art, their weapons.  We did some aboriginal drawings of native animals and matchstick art where we used dots lines and earthy colours with white paint on black paper.

That was the 90's

Ive learned more at work in public sector health.

Out in public I've been threatened with a knife by one and his mate.  Unfortunate incident/misunderstanding on a tram where things got heated for no good reason.

Its where I established theres good and bad in all races.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 14, 2021, 08:25:32 AM
The Victorian government has become the country’s largest employer to include the term “chestfeeding” in a workplace agreement as part of a broader push to use gender-inclusive language.

I think it's time we kibosh the lot, politicians, bureaucrats and social workers, it costs us billion$ for wearing this sort of tripe!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 14, 2021, 09:02:22 AM
The Victorian government has become the country’s largest employer to include the term “chestfeeding” in a workplace agreement as part of a broader push to use gender-inclusive language.

I think it's time we kibosh the lot, politicians, bureaucrats and social workers, it costs us billion$ for wearing this sort of tripe!

I just don't get it. Are we embarrassed to use the word 'breast'?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 14, 2021, 10:22:15 AM
Someone's gotta justify this feel good garbage.  No better sucker than the taxpayer.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on May 14, 2021, 10:37:41 AM
And what are we to make of "bottom feeder" under this new regime??
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 14, 2021, 02:53:26 PM
Don Lane
Bert Newton
Ellen DeGeneres

Anyone who has been exposed even superficially to those in the entertainment media get this list.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 14, 2021, 04:15:52 PM
Don Lane
Bert Newton
Ellen DeGeneres

Anyone who has been exposed even superficially to those in the entertainment media get this list.
All blokes?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 14, 2021, 04:16:42 PM
All blokes?
Some blokier than others....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 20, 2021, 09:41:25 AM
It seems the filth cant take a trick. Rumblings with the coach and board, now the HS is reporting Joffa Corfe has been charged by Police with 2 counts of sexual assault of a person under 16. How the mighty fall.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 20, 2021, 10:02:44 AM
Ask not for whom the bell tolls ...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 20, 2021, 12:02:55 PM
It seems the filth cant take a trick. Rumblings with the coach and board, now the HS is reporting Joffa Corfe has been charged by Police with 2 counts of sexual assault of a person under 16. How the mighty fall.
I thought Joffa had moved to Fiji permanently?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 20, 2021, 12:04:14 PM
I thought Joffa had moved to Fiji permanently?

Redbank Plains in Queensland according to an article in The Age.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 20, 2021, 12:37:12 PM
Notice The Hun went front page with Joffa wearing The Gold Jacket over a Carlton jumper!

(https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5082.0;attach=1051)

Flubbo can't resist taking a swipe at us, it's his way. This is nothing more than a cheap effort to build a visual association between an accused sex offender and Carlton, and shiv all Carlton fans!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 20, 2021, 12:40:20 PM
Notice The Hun went front page with Joffa wearing The Gold Jacket over a Carlton jumper!

(https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5082.0;attach=1051)

Exactly the sort of low level crap you'd expect from Murdoch.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 20, 2021, 05:06:35 PM
That demands a hard legal response. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 20, 2021, 05:19:01 PM
Redbank Plains in Queensland according to an article in The Age.
Wonder if he has been to Truganina? always a first time.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: flyboy77 on May 20, 2021, 08:35:22 PM
Is that Joffa story legit?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 20, 2021, 08:41:49 PM
Is that Joffa story legit?

It seems pretty legit. The charges have been laid and he was arrested earlier this month - bailed for a court appearance in July.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-20/collingwood-fan-joffa-to-face-child-sex-charges/100151636
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 20, 2021, 09:19:05 PM
Is that Joffa story legit?
100%
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 20, 2021, 09:45:29 PM
Is that Joffa story legit?

You bet it is. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on May 20, 2021, 09:56:02 PM
Is the Joffa stuff in any way cheersquad related or is it completely outside of the club?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 20, 2021, 10:44:20 PM
Is the Joffa stuff in any way cheersquad related or is it completely outside of the club?
Allegedly occurred in Coburg
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 25, 2021, 02:40:34 PM
A note of warning to Bitcoin hoarders and other crypto-currency apparatchiks.

The moment a nefarious global authority gets a functioning general purpose quantum computer, your old style encryption crypto-currency is exactly worthless, you may as well walk out the front door and throw your cash onto the road!

It's a matter of when not if!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 25, 2021, 04:27:20 PM
A note of warning to Bitcoin hoarders and other crypto-currency apparatchiks.

The moment a nefarious global authority gets a functioning general purpose quantum computer, your old style encryption crypto-currency is exactly worthless, you may as well walk out the front door and throw your cash onto the road!

It's a matter of when not if!
A lot of the smarter bitcoin operators have been selling, Elon Musk deciding to exclude Bitcoin as a payment method for his beloved Teslas after intially championing the idea really knocked the Bitcoin price and the Bitcoin movement.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on May 25, 2021, 05:07:23 PM
There are much better ways to make money... ;)
I'm helping out a Nigerian Prince who is struggling to access his finances.
He's going to put it into my account and leave me a share when he takes it out. :D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 25, 2021, 05:11:02 PM
There are much better ways to make money... ;)
I'm helping out a Nigerian Prince who is struggling to access his finances.
He's going to put it into my account and leave me a share when he takes it out. :D
I know that guy, he contacted me also. Gee he gets around and has plenty of cash.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 25, 2021, 05:19:12 PM
I know that guy, he contacted me also. Gee he gets around and has plenty of cash.

And presumably married to Nicole from the NBN.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on May 25, 2021, 09:07:21 PM
A lot of the smarter bitcoin operators have been selling, Elon Musk deciding to exclude Bitcoin as a payment method for his beloved Teslas after intially championing the idea really knocked the Bitcoin price and the Bitcoin movement.

Elon was a dunce.

His whole business model is based on green energy and renewables.  Mining crypto uses ALOT of electricity.  So much that it made no sense for him to get into that.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 29, 2021, 09:15:03 PM
https://theconversation.com/the-afrs-2021-rich-list-shows-were-not-all-in-this-together-161738
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 02:11:48 PM
And so ends the reign of cryptocurrency.

US seizes $2.3 million Colonial Pipeline paid to ransomware attackers
Funds seized after Justice Department IDs Bitcoin wallet and obtains its private key.

Once the US Feds have done this once, they can do it again anywhere, anytime and to anybody!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on June 08, 2021, 02:35:38 PM
And pretty to watch.  Hope millions get burnt.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 03:07:56 PM
And pretty to watch.  Hope millions get burnt.
They'll hide how they've done this, they'll claim it was an informant, but I doubt it.

Just to find somebody they had to crack encryption, but just like Enigma during the WW-II they'll claim they captured the data they needed.

Now they can just sit and watch and make notes before acting at will, in a manner that just looks like bad luck to the targets. Like Germany thinking it's U-Boats missing transport ships was just down to weather patterns and coincidence.

For popular Apps there is a fundamental problem with all encryption, the more you use it the more vulnerable it is as every message and file is a hint to how to unravel it!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 08, 2021, 05:26:25 PM
I dont think you understand encryption and private keys very well LP.

Irrespective, quantum computing is likely the reason they could crack the encryption.  What previously took years will take minutes.

Thats why you wont find out how they cracked it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 08:26:59 PM
I dont think you understand encryption and private keys very well LP.

Irrespective, quantum computing is likely the reason they could crack the encryption.  What previously took years will take minutes.

Thats why you wont find out how they cracked it.
I suspect your trust in Bitcoin's encryption might be a tad over-stated, as is the general faith in digital systems, anyone who does enough scientific computing knows the problems I refer to, so they generally do not comply 100% to the math that designed them. Certain points values can overflow which becomes a tell for cryptographers, this can also be device dependant, with various platforms having different weakness. It's no different to when Diffie-Hellman was cracked, that wasn't brut force it was a math issue with digital systems. Collect enough data and these regular patterns of conversion between analogue math and digital algorithms becomes more obvious as artefacts in the data.

So I wouldn't ignore the possibility that authorities might be able to seed the ledger with certain data and from that derive some critical knowledge of the blockchain. Not much different in method to how Turing and others broke Enigma and Lorenz. I appreciate it's a bigger problem, but it's not beyond state level actors.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 09, 2021, 11:11:54 AM
I suspect your trust in Bitcoin's encryption might be a tad over-stated, as is the general faith in digital systems, anyone who does enough scientific computing knows the problems I refer to, so they generally do not comply 100% to the math that designed them. Certain points values can overflow which becomes a tell for cryptographers, this can also be device dependant, with various platforms having different weakness. It's no different to when Diffie-Hellman was cracked, that wasn't brut force it was a math issue with digital systems. Collect enough data and these regular patterns of conversion between analogue math and digital algorithms becomes more obvious as artefacts in the data.

So I wouldn't ignore the possibility that authorities might be able to seed the ledger with certain data and from that derive some critical knowledge of the blockchain. Not much different in method to how Turing and others broke Enigma and Lorenz. I appreciate it's a bigger problem, but it's not beyond state level actors.

Sorry mate. You cant simplify it like this without an inherent understanding of exactly how it operates.

FYI, I am doing a Cyber security course right now and we have looked at hashing, salting, how it works, and that it is very much a one way function involving private and public keys. 

As for my trust in bitcoin, I have none, I am/have purchasing/purchased none, and quantum computing, will render it worthless, because what takes years to create on the blockchain, will take minutes to solve on a quantum computer.

Have a go at this for a bit and think about what I am saying.

http://nmichaels.org/rsa.py





Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 09, 2021, 11:17:07 AM
As for my trust in bitcoin, I have none, I am/have purchasing/purchased none, and quantum computing, will render it worthless, because what takes years to create on the blockchain, will take minutes to solve on a quantum computer.
I remember just a year or two back Google claiming it's handful of qubits quantum computer had just solved a problem that would take a supercomputer hundreds of thousands of years to solve, then IBM fired back by demonstrating the very next day it's silicon based supercomputer solving the same problem in 18 minutes. Google hadn't done the math correctly, they forgot math is analogue and computers are digital, even quantum computers!

All of these systems depend on the base infrastructure, and they assume the systems are secure from that very first step. But as the Comancheros discovered yesterday with their encrypted communications app, assumption is the mother of all feck ups! Blockchain as a distributed ledger is a revolution, it'll become the backbone of many data base services to deliver reliability and traceability, but thinking it is infallible is a human failing.

As for quantum computers, the ability to break encryption is theoretical, recent work suggests that designing those algorithms for a Quantum computer is many orders of magnitude harder than people think. Sure once you've got the reliable algorithm you have an advantage, but getting it might not be so easy.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on June 11, 2021, 08:49:34 AM
https://theconversation.com/liberals-dan-andrews-questions-are-a-perfect-case-study-in-how-to-manufacture-fake-news-162511
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 11, 2021, 09:40:24 AM
I remember just a year or two back Google claiming it's handful of qubits quantum computer had just solved a problem that would take a supercomputer hundreds of thousands of years to solve, then IBM fired back by demonstrating the very next day it's silicon based supercomputer solving the same problem in 18 minutes. Google hadn't done the math correctly, they forgot math is analogue and computers are digital, even quantum computers!

All of these systems depend on the base infrastructure, and they assume the systems are secure from that very first step. But as the Comancheros discovered yesterday with their encrypted communications app, assumption is the mother of all feck ups! Blockchain as a distributed ledger is a revolution, it'll become the backbone of many data base services to deliver reliability and traceability, but thinking it is infallible is a human failing.

As for quantum computers, the ability to break encryption is theoretical, recent work suggests that designing those algorithms for a Quantum computer is many orders of magnitude harder than people think. Sure once you've got the reliable algorithm you have an advantage, but getting it might not be so easy.

Most hacking is done by simple means. 

People surrender information because they have to. 

Its not about code breaking per se.

Most people are extremely naieve.

You have to login to retrieve your bitcoin.  THAT'S the key to being a hacker.  You get that information by stockpiling information about people. 

Quantum computing is revolutionary because of the speed in which its able to do things vs whats available now and all computing fundamentals are math based.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 10:55:13 AM
Most hacking is done by simple means. 

People surrender information because they have to. 

Its not about code breaking per se.

Most people are extremely naieve.

You have to login to retrieve your bitcoin.  THAT'S the key to being a hacker.  You get that information by stockpiling information about people.
The method is somewhat irrelevant, the easy way or the hard way, the reality is the US Feds broke criminal bitcoin accounts either by deception or technological brute force and withdrew funds, they've done it once so they'll can do it again. And the Anom App crushing the Comancheros is yet another example, techno deception or not, and that is technology more than 3 years old, they had been doing it for that long assembling the evidence!

Personally, I don't see this as any different to the way a Stingray works for a call interception on the cellular network, they are just a deception run by the state, the assertion is Bitcoin has suffered much the same. Judging by the market reaction, I suspect many investors agree, they do not know how long ago it was broken. The suggestion of a whistle-blower might just be the authorities covering their tracks in much the same way the British let the Germans think the prevention/failure of German operations was from conventional intelligence and not Bletchley Park breaking Enigma.

The problem for Bitcoin or other Crypto Currency users is how do they know, because trust is broken?

Personally, I don't understand how you are not sensitive to this, yet think a lockdown to save lives in a pandemic is a risk to civil liberties and freedoms. It seems at best arbitrary if you want the expertise of cryptographers and IT specialist accepted without question, yet questions health professionals.

Many would see this interception of Bitcoin as a threat to freedoms and liberties, Bitcoin and other Cryptocurrencies were of course created for this very reason, to free the public from the tyranny of the financial system. Apple might even market encryption and blockchain that very way!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 11, 2021, 11:12:02 AM
The method is somewhat irrelevant, the easy way or the hard way, the reality is the US Feds broke criminal bitcoin accounts either by deception or technological brute force and withdrew funds, they've done it once so they'll can do it again. And the Anom App crushing the Comancheros is yet another example, techno deception or not, and that is technology more than 3 years old, they had been doing it for that long assembling the evidence!

Personally, I don't see this as any different to the way a Stingray works for a call interception on the cellular network, they are just a deception run by the state, the assertion is Bitcoin has suffered much the same. Judging by the market reaction, I suspect many investors agree, they do not know how long ago it was broken. The suggestion of a whistle-blower might just be the authorities covering their tracks in much the same way the British let the Germans think the prevention/failure of German operations was from conventional intelligence and not Bletchley Park breaking Enigma.

The problem for Bitcoin or other Crypto Currency users is how do they know, because trust is broken?

Personally, I don't understand how you are not sensitive to this, yet think a lockdown to save lives in a pandemic is a risk to civil liberties and freedoms. It seems at best arbitrary if you want the expertise of cryptographers and IT specialist accepted without question, yet questions health professionals.

Many would see this interception of Bitcoin as a threat to freedoms and liberties, Bitcoin and other Cryptocurrencies were of course created for this very reason, to free the public from the tyranny of the financial system. Apple might even market encryption and blockchain that very way!


Actually, the bolded statements of what we are talking about is the major relevance.  HOW is the single most important thing when it comes to cyber security.

Ill give you a clue.  Look up 0 hour cyber attacks and what they take advantage of.


The rest of your post, is philosophy, tied up in jargon dressed with a little bit of sarcasm.

The pandemic risk to civil liberties and freedom is not quite relevant.  The response, very extremely risk averse and not commensurate to the risk profile.  Online Cybersecurity is different.  State sponsored hackers are not the only type.

LP, I appreciate that google can teach you a lot in a very short period of time, but expertise in any one of these facets is not found on google.

The online world is much easier to hack than anyone understands.  THIS is the premise behind cyber security.  As a test case, have a look at your password for this very forum.  How secure would you guess it would be?  If someone knew you quite intimately, would they be able to crack it easily enough?  Combine that with the resources of the FBI, NSA or CIA, and then add in a quantum computer for good measure.

The weakest link is the human.  It always has been, and always will be.  2001 a space odyssey tells that story well enough. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 11, 2021, 11:44:34 AM
He's a good man Ross Lyon, often misjudged I reckon. Is young Zac still with the Blues?
Lyon is a good coach at working out what game plan suits what he has on the list.
Dawson was a spud of a player imo but I don't know anything about his off field abilities. Lyon might suit us given we have no idea what we are doing, but it won't be pretty to watch..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 11, 2021, 01:03:45 PM
Lyon is a good coach at working out what game plan suits what he has on the list.
Dawson was a spud of a player imo but I don't know anything about his off field abilities. Lyon might suit us given we have no idea what we are doing, but it won't be pretty to watch..
Amazing my post of nearly 12 months ago is relevant today.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 11, 2021, 01:21:35 PM
It’ll save me a lot of time if Lyon takes over at Carlton. Rather than watching the game, I’ll just check the final score. And then if we’ve won 31-30, I’ll let out a little “Yippee!”
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 02:14:17 PM
It’ll save me a lot of time if Lyon takes over at Carlton. Rather than watching the game, I’ll just check the final score. And then if we’ve won 31-30, I’ll let out a little “Yippee!”
 Yes, I'm afraid I'll be the same, the garden will be looking good!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on June 11, 2021, 02:20:34 PM
I reckon I'd be happy with boring footy that takes us to the GF, rather than what we have now.

I'm 50/50 on Lyon. I learn things from him sometimes, but he can be pretty sarcastic, and he has occasional turns of phrase (Lyon-speak), where I'm not really sure what he's trying to say.

Please CFC, stick with one coach and minimal list changes for a few years, and see what happens. I haven't checked, but I'd bet that was the state of play during the Ratten years (one coach, similar list).
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on June 11, 2021, 04:53:56 PM
Lyon strikes me as one strange dude who I am not 100% comfortable about. I hasten to add that I have never met him so it's just an impression I get.
Also, I don't have confidence that he would be the one to get us a premiership.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 11, 2021, 06:10:34 PM
Lyon strikes me as one strange dude who I am not 100% comfortable about. I hasten to add that I have never met him so it's just an impression I get.
Also, I don't have confidence that he would be the one to get us a premiership.
Lyon would make us better defensively which would win us more games and you could expect to make finals IMO but winning a GF with his previous gamestyle at Freo would be difficult. Its like bowling at leg stump with all your fielders on the legside, you wont give away many runs but you wont get many wickets either.
Agree on his personality, wouldnt like him as a neighbor....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on June 11, 2021, 09:18:23 PM
https://www.theage.com.au/national/geoffrey-edelsten-found-dead-in-melbourne-apartment-20210611-p580d4.html
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on June 11, 2021, 09:21:36 PM
https://www.afl.com.au/news/629309/former-sydney-owner-geoffrey-edelsten-dies-aged-78

Another article.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 12, 2021, 08:38:57 PM
I’m generally a big proponent of electric power for cars and the like but there are times a powerful combustion engine might be preferable:
Click here (https://mobile.twitter.com/ATCEMS/status/1403092789630472199)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 12, 2021, 08:59:29 PM
It’ll save me a lot of time if Lyon takes over at Carlton. Rather than watching the game, I’ll just check the final score. And then if we’ve won 31-30, I’ll let out a little “Yippee!”
12 or 13 one point low scoring wins vs 7 or 8 22 to 24 point honourable losses.
Hmmmmm.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 22, 2021, 04:43:07 PM
Those of you experienced in flying, and in particularly the flatus expanding effects of low cabin pressures at altitude, will be seriously disturbed by the latest cabin concepts!
(https://www.traveller.com.au/content/dam/images/h/1/w/m/s/v/image.gallery.galleryLandscape.620x414.h1wmt1.png/1624238921684.jpg)
Enjoy the flight fart face!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 29, 2021, 04:59:42 PM
To add salt to the wound, Zac Williams has been racially vilified online following his suspension by a vile, weak, coward with a fake account. Time for social media platforms for insist on 3 forms of valid ID to open an account. This way, these weak kents can be tracked down and face the music. Despicable excuses for humans is all they are.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on June 29, 2021, 05:12:13 PM
To add salt to the wound, Zac Williams has been racially vilified online following his suspension by a vile, weak, coward with a fake account. Time for social media platforms for insist on 3 forms of valid ID to open an account. This way, these weak kents can be tracked down and face the music. Despicable excuses for humans is all they are.

Cowards is the perfect description.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 29, 2021, 05:36:02 PM
Almost certainly a CheatsFC supporter posing as a Bluebagger.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 29, 2021, 05:52:33 PM
Almost certainly a CheatsFC supporter posing as a Bluebagger.

Was it on a Carlton forum/Facebook page?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 29, 2021, 06:11:44 PM
Was it on a Carlton forum/Facebook page?
Not sure, I think it was on Instagram.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 29, 2021, 08:53:44 PM
To add salt to the wound, Zac Williams has been racially vilified online following his suspension by a vile, weak, coward with a fake account. Time for social media platforms for insist on 3 forms of valid ID to open an account. This way, these weak kents can be tracked down and face the music. Despicable excuses for humans is all they are.

I dont agree on giving identification and personal information to social media. 

They collect enough personal information that they don't need.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on June 29, 2021, 09:02:34 PM
I dont agree on giving identification and personal information to social media. 

They collect enough personal information that they don't need.

Of course they need it… how else can they spin a profit ?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 29, 2021, 09:11:46 PM
I dont agree on giving identification and personal information to social media. 

They collect enough personal information that they don't need.
Well they need to do something to verify the ID of the gutless parasites and filth who vilify and bully people into knecking themselves. Im not an anti survelience type simply because I do nothing wrong and having nothing to hide. If giving that information brings perpetrators of vile acts to justice and suffer the consequences of their actions, I'm all for it and will gladly accept that as a condition of using it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 29, 2021, 09:21:14 PM
Well they need to do something to verify the ID of the gutless parasites and filth who vilify and bully people into knecking themselves. Im not an anti survelience type simply because I do nothing wrong and having nothing to hide. If giving that information brings perpetrators of vile acts to justice and suffer the consequences of their actions, I'm all for it and will gladly accept that as a condition of using it.

I understand.   The vitriol that gets spewed on social media is abhorrent but I would rather give it away than give away my information. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 29, 2021, 09:31:48 PM
I understand.   The vitriol that gets spewed on social media is abhorrent but I would rather give it away than give away my information. 
Fair enough.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on June 29, 2021, 09:36:34 PM
Funny - I much prefer giving my info to Social Media (not that I'm very active) then to the government - I am much more suspicious as to how our privacy is being eroded on a Federal level (pre-fill tax returns, all the MyGov, there has already been application by VicPol to access Corona QR check-ins).

The reality is if someone wants my information, they have probably got it or can get it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 29, 2021, 09:56:56 PM
Funny - I much prefer giving my info to Social Media (not that I'm very active) then to the government - I am much more suspicious as to how our privacy is being eroded on a Federal level (pre-fill tax returns, all the MyGov, there has already been application by VicPol to access Corona QR check-ins).

The reality is if someone wants my information, they have probably got it or can get it.

For me its not an either scenario.

Theres lots of information gathering by sources that really don't need it. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 30, 2021, 09:45:59 AM
Just from an ex-moderator/admin point of view and speaking specifically about this site...

As a site I think we've handled things pretty well over the years.
We've given a little lenience on things like criticism of player's skills, efforts and attitudes (and we've copped a bit of criticism for that)
But things like racist comments and rumours regarding player's personal lives have been shut down pretty quickly.
To be honest, we really haven't had to do much, as folks have been pretty good and vile and extremist comments have been a rare occurence.

I'm not sure how multiple ID's to verify an account could be introduced.
How we could view them, and verify them, and the responsibility that goes with accessing that information would all be issues.
I think we have to rely on our moderating group to act swiftly and get rid of the comments and posters who breach standards.

I think the time will come when social media sites are increasingly accountable, unfortunately individuals have many ways to avoid and get around detection.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 30, 2021, 10:50:30 AM
I dont agree on giving identification and personal information to social media. 

They collect enough personal information that they don't need.
Agree and it wouldn't work anyway. You can get around that now with fake ids, people use fake IPs all the time,same with mobiles, emails. The dark Web, laundering through Crypto etc has created a bigger need.Police are spending more and more trying to keep up with it all..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 30, 2021, 11:00:36 AM
Agree and it wouldn't work anyway. You can get around that now with fake ids, people use fake IPs all the time,same with mobiles, emails. The dark Web, laundering through Crypto etc has created a bigger need.Police are spending more and more trying to keep up with it all..
I notice the top police chiefs stated they did not want access to the Q-Code records as they rightly pointed out it would discourage people getting vaccinated and using the system. Some may be cynical about that but really give, health, wellbeing and wealth drive crime it makes perfect sense.

The state and Fed police are now using more and more covert tactics, not dissimilar to ASIO. Crooked lawyers want to expose the tactics in court so they can get a big payday off the criminals for getting them off the hook. It's a game of cat and mouse, and perhaps indicates that long term the Feds need to be more involved. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 30, 2021, 11:04:15 AM
Just from an ex-moderator/admin point of view and speaking specifically about this site...

As a site I think we've handled things pretty well over the years.
We've given a little lenience on things like criticism of player's skills, efforts and attitudes (and we've copped a bit of criticism for that)
But things like racist comments and rumours regarding player's personal lives have been shut down pretty quickly.
To be honest, we really haven't had to do much, as folks have been pretty good and vile and extremist comments have been a rare occurence.

I'm not sure how multiple ID's to verify an account could be introduced.
How we could view them, and verify them, and the responsibility that goes with accessing that information would all be issues.
I think we have to rely on our moderating group to act swiftly and get rid of the comments and posters who breach standards.

I think the time will come when social media sites are increasingly accountable, unfortunately individuals have many ways to avoid and get around detection.

Not to mention how do we trust as an example that you guys can secure our personal information?

Thats not a slight on csc, its a valid concern.

Identity theft is the number one driver of cyber crime.  It creates a lot of revenue for thieves not to mention gives them the ability to literally steal all you own and then leave you fighting to prove your own identity.  All for what goal? 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on June 30, 2021, 11:14:55 AM
Precisely why I'll never be on facebook, twitter or any other part of social media.  Enrich Zuckerberg or anyone like him?  They disgust me.  
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 30, 2021, 11:30:23 AM
Precisely why I'll never be on facebook, twitter or any other part of social media.  Enrich Zuckerberg or anyone like him?  They disgust me.  
I don't do social media either....its sophisticated marketing for the masses.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 30, 2021, 12:24:42 PM
I don't do social media either....its sophisticated marketing for the masses.
A technically sophisticated backend, but the marketing message itself is fairly rudimentary lowest common denominator stuff. A technological race to the moral gutter.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 30, 2021, 01:26:19 PM
Agree and it wouldn't work anyway. You can get around that now with fake ids, people use fake IPs all the time,same with mobiles, emails. The dark Web, laundering through Crypto etc has created a bigger need.Police are spending more and more trying to keep up with it all..
Righto then, we'll just allow cretins to get on line and call Zac an aboroginal  so and so  and we just say its too hard. Not good enough as far as Im concerned. If platforms like Facebook and Twitter really want to, they can get proper verification and hunt animals down. If we want to make a difference, it needs to be pushed.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 30, 2021, 02:01:39 PM
Righto then, we'll just allow cretins to get on line and call Zac an aboroginal  so and so  and we just say its too hard. Not good enough as far as Im concerned. If platforms like Facebook and Twitter really want to, they can get proper verification and hunt animals down. If we want to make a difference, it needs to be pushed.

They do moderate these forums.  People aren't allowed to say and right purely what they like, and abuse can be reported, and usually those posters are suspended, and then removed from those platforms.

They have community standards, and the commentary can be removed.  Removing the ability for people to speak, doesnt stop racism occurring, it just stops people hearing it.  This is one way to do it, but it removes the educational component of seeing it, and calling it out.

In time, all these issues will be sorted, but I see some potential scope for historical repetition of these issues.  Practising equality must be done without the usual divisions and seperation.  I.e.  Being proud and deady is fine, but it becomes a way to ensure there is division in society, rather than simply seeing us all as individuals, and then treating everyone with the respect they deserve.  I am an Australian born, son of a Greek migrant, and I too, am proud and deadly....  Except, I am not a first nations person, therefore I shouldn't be as proud and deadly as they are....  See the issue there?

I do.  It creates the division we need to remove to find an equal footing for all. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 30, 2021, 03:35:02 PM
In this particular case it seems the dill created a false account and posted.
Easy to do, impossible to track.

So what has he achieved....universal condemnation and  a very strong response from the Carlton club
He's  highlighted what a piece of crap he personally is, and drew attention to the fact that there are still a number of low-lifes out there.
 
He can't boast too loudly about it...guys like him usually have 'friends' who'll turn on them at the drop of a hat and dob him in.
The only folks who will know about his antics are possibly a few grubby mates who share his opinion.
He get's little satisfaction from it even though it's probably the high point so far in his miserable existence.
Loser!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 30, 2021, 03:51:09 PM
In time, all these issues will be sorted, but I see some potential scope for historical repetition of these issues.  Practising equality must be done without the usual divisions and seperation.  I.e.  Being proud and deady is fine, but it becomes a way to ensure there is division in society, rather than simply seeing us all as individuals, and then treating everyone with the respect they deserve.  I am an Australian born, son of a Greek migrant, and I too, am proud and deadly....  Except, I am not a first nations person, therefore I shouldn't be as proud and deadly as they are....  See the issue there?

I do.  It creates the division we need to remove to find an equal footing for all. 
Just as well that clubs like South Melbourne Hellas have been excluded from the A-League, then. Having clubs that are divided along ethnic lines creates division. Maybe Italian and Greek social clubs should be banned for the same reason.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 30, 2021, 04:30:40 PM
They do moderate these forums.  People aren't allowed to say and right purely what they like, and abuse can be reported, and usually those posters are suspended, and then removed from those platforms.

They have community standards, and the commentary can be removed.  Removing the ability for people to speak, doesnt stop racism occurring, it just stops people hearing it.  This is one way to do it, but it removes the educational component of seeing it, and calling it out.

In time, all these issues will be sorted, but I see some potential scope for historical repetition of these issues.  Practising equality must be done without the usual divisions and seperation.  I.e.  Being proud and deady is fine, but it becomes a way to ensure there is division in society, rather than simply seeing us all as individuals, and then treating everyone with the respect they deserve.  I am an Australian born, son of a Greek migrant, and I too, am proud and deadly....  Except, I am not a first nations person, therefore I shouldn't be as proud and deadly as they are....  See the issue there?

I do.  It creates the division we need to remove to find an equal footing for all. 
Sorry Thry, I dont really get what you mean, I sort of thinks youre over complicating it (with respect). For me its really simple. I was taught to treat everyone equal and with respect. Black, white, red, purple, east, west, north, south, young, old, rich, poor. In sickness and in health, in work and in play, during fun times and in sad times, online, offline. Whatever.
Cross the line and there should be consequences. If there are aren't, it all falls down and we start again. People do what they do because there are no consequences for their actions. You talk about education, even the most educated can be hurtful, vile despicable human beings. Yes we must educate this early in life but when people who should know better step of out of line, their must be consequences (re-education and penalty). You say in time issues will be sorted, guess what? We've been going a long time and things still aren't sorted. We are talking basics here. Why is that? In my mind, it always comes back to two things. Lack of education and no consequences. I keep hearing about why we cant do stuff, too hard, etc etc. I want to start hearing about can do.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 30, 2021, 06:31:50 PM
Just as well that clubs like South Melbourne Hellas have been excluded from the A-League, then. Having clubs that are divided along ethnic lines creates division. Maybe Italian and Greek social clubs should be banned for the same reason.

@goingintocarlton see this post for what im talking about.  The migrant clubs were effectively kiboshed from the national competition and not really given a crack at joining the A league.

The point to it at the time is exactly what Mav is saying.  Too many ethnics.

@Mav I will forever be a South Melbourne supporter.  Like the old swans supporters of Melbourne who eventually die, the kids won't remember and the club will dissappear.  Ive made my peace with that.  Instead we'll focus on the fact that Lisa De Vanna came from South Melbourne's women's team and it wasn't a Greeks only club.   We were happy to accept everyone.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 01, 2021, 04:08:32 PM
The Mrs and I are spending a couple of days in the YV and stopped at Healesville. Walked past on antiques store at they had old football records in the window. Couldn't resist, picked up:
1 x 1968 Second Semi Ess v Carl
1 x 1970 Second Semi Coll v Carl
1 x 1970 Preliminary Final Stk v Cal
1 x 1973 Second Semi Coll v Car
$72 the lot, probably got ripped but just couldn't walk passed. All in very good condition.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 01, 2021, 04:22:36 PM
The Mrs and I are spending a couple of days in the YV and stopped at Healesville. Walked past on antiques store at they had old football records in the window. Couldn't resist, picked up:
1 x 1968 Second Semi Ess v Carl
1 x 1970 Second Semi Coll v Carl
1 x 1970 Preliminary Final Stk v Cal
1 x 1973 Second Semi Coll v Car
$72 the lot, probably got ripped but just couldn't walk passed. All in very good condition.

Good get GTC. About $14 or $15 each, worth it IMO. If you head over to eBay, you'll see that the price you paid in pretty reasonable in comparison. You'll forget about the price in years to come when you're thumbing through them.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 01, 2021, 04:44:10 PM
The Mrs and I are spending a couple of days in the YV and stopped at Healesville. Walked past on antiques store at they had old football records in the window. Couldn't resist, picked up:
1 x 1968 Second Semi Ess v Carl
1 x 1970 Second Semi Coll v Carl
1 x 1970 Preliminary Final Stk v Cal
1 x 1973 Second Semi Coll v Car
$72 the lot, probably got ripped but just couldn't walk passed. All in very good condition.
Good get and as Paul said worth the money.....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 01, 2021, 06:39:18 PM
The Mrs and I are spending a couple of days in the YV and stopped at Healesville. Walked past on antiques store at they had old football records in the window. Couldn't resist, picked up:
1 x 1968 Second Semi Ess v Carl
1 x 1970 Second Semi Coll v Carl
1 x 1970 Preliminary Final Stk v Cal
1 x 1973 Second Semi Coll v Car
$72 the lot, probably got ripped but just couldn't walk passed. All in very good condition.

Well worth the loot... would have done the same, in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 01, 2021, 09:22:59 PM
Well worth the loot... would have done the same, in a heartbeat.
Thats all the validation I required Baggers Me Ol Mate.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 09, 2021, 07:00:07 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/09/shock-jock-horror-alan-jones-fears-cancel-culture-warriors-as-he-flirts-with-return-to-radio

You have to laugh.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 09, 2021, 08:04:34 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/09/shock-jock-horror-alan-jones-fears-cancel-culture-warriors-as-he-flirts-with-return-to-radio

You have to laugh.

I can only shake my head and mutter, "Oh dear."
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 15, 2021, 04:52:00 PM
https://theconversation.com/right-wing-shock-jock-stoush-reveals-the-awful-truth-about-covid-politics-and-media-ratings-164489

Focussed on Sydney, but interesting nonetheless IMO.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Professer E on July 16, 2021, 07:14:59 PM
If I ran a radio station  and lost a ratings slot to Kyle the ****wit and his sidekick I'd just about entertain putting the Antichrist and his pet dog on the air.  
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 16, 2021, 07:56:11 PM
If I ran a radio station  and lost a ratings slot to Kyle the ****wit and his sidekick I'd just about entertain putting the Antichrist and his pet dog on the air.  
Kyle and his equally dimwitted co host are on about 7-8 mill a year each.....you think of people running the country, performing great work in medicine etc etc and you have those two who are probably surviving with just a reduced brain stem and a few cells and its like contemplating where the universe ends...just beyond comprehension what their appeal is and why they get paid so much.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on July 16, 2021, 07:58:19 PM
@EB1
Just a reflection of the world we live in unfortunately.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on July 16, 2021, 08:50:13 PM
How much of a dimwit must you be to listen to those two whackjobs
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 16, 2021, 09:35:54 PM
Kyle and his equally dimwitted co host are on about 7-8 mill a year each.....you think of people running the country, performing great work in medicine etc etc and you have those two who are probably surviving with just a reduced brain stem and a few cells and its like contemplating where the universe ends...just beyond comprehension what their appeal is and why they get paid so much.
Beggars belief. Supply and demand says more about the general public I guess.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on August 02, 2021, 05:36:46 PM
https://theconversation.com/who-were-australias-best-prime-ministers-we-asked-the-experts-165302

Curtin No1, and rightly so. Chifley and Whitlam should be competing for 2 and 3.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 02, 2021, 05:50:59 PM
No room for Kevin?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on August 02, 2021, 06:09:28 PM
https://theconversation.com/who-were-australias-best-prime-ministers-we-asked-the-experts-165302

Curtin No1, and rightly so. Chifley and Whitlam should be competing for 2 and 3.

I would have had Gogh ahead of Keating... otherwise, hard to argue with their top 10.

As for SloMo... he'd make a different top 10, a less favourable top 10.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on August 02, 2021, 06:16:44 PM
I would have had Gogh ahead of Keating... otherwise, hard to argue with their top 10.

As for SloMo... he'd make a different top 10, a less favourable top 10.

Down at the bottom of the article is a short "duds" section, with Abbott, Rudd and Turnbull near the bottom. William McMahon is ranked last.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 02, 2021, 06:24:17 PM
Dont like any Politicians but Abbott is top of my Dud PM list.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 02, 2021, 06:35:30 PM
Hawk? For me the last politician who gave a genuine fork about the people.
Fraser and Menzies being good Bluebaggers surely an a advantage.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 02, 2021, 06:53:34 PM
Hawk? For me the last politician who gave a genuine fork about the people.
Fraser and Menzies being good Bluebaggers surely an a advantage.
Bob Hawke lost me when he traded in Hazel for Blanche....
Malcom Fraser I could never warm too...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 02, 2021, 07:01:50 PM
Bob Hawke lost me when he traded in Hazel for Blanche....
Malcom Fraser I could never warm too...
Hawk was a ratbag "off field" no doubt, but he did a bloody good job as PM because he cared. The current polis wouldn't carry his bags. All I remember of Sir Robert was watching his state funeral as a kid with my dad and the picture of him watching the Blues at PP from the front seat of his government Roller on a special stand. As for Mal, just google Alex Marcou's "Fabulous" story.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on August 02, 2021, 07:09:21 PM
People will vote according to their own political leanings.

Gough was a progressive, visionary leader but as far as running a tight, disciplined ship he was an absolute dud.

The winner is  (he'll get votes from both sides).... Bob Hawke. ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on August 02, 2021, 08:19:15 PM
...

The winner is  (he'll get votes from both sides).... Bob Hawke. ;D

It's been an issue for Labor since at least the 80's. With a general drift in political attitudes towards the right, Labor was forced to become New Labor, or Liberal Lite, or whatever you want to call it. Staying true to hard core, old school Labor values like Jeremy Corbyn means a wipe out in elections (at least in English speaking countries). I understood why Labor went the way they did under Hawke / Keating, but it was the beginning of the end for me.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on August 02, 2021, 09:01:31 PM
It's been an issue for Labor since at least the 80's. With a general drift in political attitudes towards the right, Labor was forced to become New Labor, or Liberal Lite, or whatever you want to call it. Staying true to hard core, old school Labor values like Jeremy Corbyn means a wipe out in elections (at least in English speaking countries). I understood why Labor went the way they did under Hawke / Keating, but it was the beginning of the end for me.


I initially had the best 'Liberal Prime Minister... Bob Hawke' in my post.
It wasn't accurate, but what Hawke did do was find the sweet spot that appealed to a large number of middle of the road voters.
I know a few long time LNP voters in my family switched sides during his tenure...and stayed Labor.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 02, 2021, 11:02:49 PM
People will vote according to their own political leanings.

Gough was a progressive, visionary leader but as far as running a tight, disciplined ship he was an absolute dud.

The winner is  (he'll get votes from both sides).... Bob Hawke. ;D
For the record, I don't vote Labour but rate Hawk as the best PM. Little Johnny also seemed to care about the people also. After and since those guys, dig a big hole, push em all in it and back fill it fast.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on August 02, 2021, 11:10:36 PM
For the record, I don't vote Labour but rate Hawk as the best PM. Little Johnny also seemed to care about the people also. After and since those guys, dig a big hole, push em all in it and back fill it fast.

That actually kind of supports what I was saying...'Folks will vote according to their own political leanings' ...but Hawke is one who blurred those political lines to the point that many LNP voters were/are quite comfortable acknowledging  and appreciating his time as Prime Minister.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 02, 2021, 11:17:59 PM
Howard was a great PM ... Hawke (forget the maritals) was also more than capable.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on August 03, 2021, 12:17:20 AM
Three things that I can't stand about Howard.   First two are about looking after those who can already look after themselves.  
1) Legacy of 50% discount for capital gains.  This kicked off housing unaffordability (aing with some other housing policies). 

2) Full refund of franking credits.  It's wrong makes no sense and is costing a lot now.

3) Tampa.  Disgusting.   Set the tone for Abbott, Dutton and others.  Horrible legacy.

The good thing he did was gun laws.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 03, 2021, 12:45:39 AM
Three things that I can't stand about Howard.   First two are about looking after those who can already look after themselves.  
1) Legacy of 50% discount for capital gains.  This kicked off housing unaffordability (aing with some other housing policies). 

2) Full refund of franking credits.  It's wrong makes no sense and is costing a lot now.

3) Tampa.  Disgusting.   Set the tone for Abbott, Dutton and others.  Horrible legacy.

The good thing he did was gun laws.
You need to means test franking credits and cap them for anyone earning over 80-100k.
If you scrap them completely then you will have a lot of self funded retirees qualifying for the pension, dropping their private health insurance and getting health care cards etc.
You want to deny the Twiggy Forests etc who earn millions in dividends but not punish the little bloke who earns 40k and uses those franking credits for his health insurance etc and who will become a burden on the pension  and health care system.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on August 03, 2021, 08:28:39 AM
Hawke owed a lot to Keating and Howard owed much to Costello imo.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on August 03, 2021, 09:03:20 AM
You need to means test franking credits and cap them for anyone earning over 80-100k.
If you scrap them completely then you will have a lot of self funded retirees qualifying for the pension, dropping their private health insurance and getting health care cards etc.
You want to deny the Twiggy Forests etc who earn millions in dividends but not punish the little bloke who earns 40k and uses those franking credits for his health insurance etc and who will become a burden on the pension  and health care system.
I don't disagree - finding the right balance is the hard bit.  No one should be seen as 'a burden on the pension and health care system'.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 03, 2021, 10:03:36 AM
You need to means test franking credits and cap them for anyone earning over 80-100k.
If you scrap them completely then you will have a lot of self funded retirees qualifying for the pension, dropping their private health insurance and getting health care cards etc.
You want to deny the Twiggy Forests etc who earn millions in dividends but not punish the little bloke who earns 40k and uses those franking credits for his health insurance etc and who will become a burden on the pension  and health care system.

I agree, but I think the thresholds should be geared to the average wage, so that it scales automatically as the economic environment changes. Also, as part of this I think the Feds need to look at issues like provisional tax. The problem I see is that the sole trader types and tradies can dabble in the share market and have massively variable income from year to year but not be earning that much on average. So if they have a very good year and the thresholds are set too low you can really punish their earnings. Alternatively maybe make these calculations based on an average over a few years.

What do you do when someone like Packer or Rinehart declare an income of $35K, while their wealth doubles and the number of people they employ plummets?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 03, 2021, 10:06:57 AM
I don't disagree - finding the right balance is the hard bit.  No one should be seen as 'a burden on the pension and health care system'.
Not great terminology being a burden but thats how governments view it and why they want everyone with superannuation so they can scrap pensions in the long term. The sad part is we need people paying Private Insurance to help take the pressure off the public system, fund private hospitals and find that right balance.
What we dont want is the likes of Twiggy, Gina Reihardt, etc etc paying no tax and getting bucket loads of franking credits....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 03, 2021, 10:31:46 AM
Look at how it went down when shorten pushed for it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on August 03, 2021, 10:54:06 AM
Shorten's version was badly thought out and marketed.  If you are going to change people's financial planning at the drop of a hat, there needs to be provision for grandfathering/tapering of the change - it has been part of planning for 15-20 years, can't just undo it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 03, 2021, 11:49:51 AM
Shorten's version was badly thought out and marketed.  If you are going to change people's financial planning at the drop of a hat, there needs to be provision for grandfathering/tapering of the change - it has been part of planning for 15-20 years, can't just undo it.
Cost Labor a lot of retirees and their families votes, Wilson Asset Management boss Geoff Wilson campaigned hard against it and and won a lot of support. Going to be hard to win those votes back for Labor and the Libs are going to use it every election like how work choices became an anchor around their necks.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 03, 2021, 12:09:16 PM
He is brainless and unelectable.  A tool.  Then again, so is turnbull.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on August 03, 2021, 01:10:18 PM
That's the problem, Capcom.  Most of them are unelectable, but we do it to spite ourselves anyway.