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Topic: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet (Read 40829 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #420 –
Quote from: WASurfer on
And TDK went forward too and clunked a few marks and kicked a couple of goals.....that's worth more than the hitouts alone.
Doesnt do that enough especially vs teams who are light on for size like GC, he has to be taking marks around the ground and kicking goals to be worth his spot imho because as a standalone ruckman he doesnt have the presence.
He needs a Pittonet soaking up the body contests from the other ruckman so he can use his athletic prowess later on as the other rucks tire so he needs to be marking the ball forward and being a target.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #421 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
He needs a Pittonet soaking up the body contests from the other ruckman so he can use his athletic prowess later on as the other rucks tire so he needs to be marking the ball forward and being a target.
This is really the key, it's a side-effect of not making life too easy for the opposition talls, they lose run we don't!
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #422 –
TDK and Pitto are a simple formula - the sum of the two are greater than the two individuals.

In a nutshell, TDK gets a chance to do his athletic stuff while Pitto does 70% of the gorilla wrestling.  Both lose value if their off-sider isn't there.

IMHO, the days of the pinch-hit second ruckman are over - you need a capable back-up ruck who can do forward stuff well.
This is now the longest premiership drought in the history of the Carlton Football Club - more evidence of climate change?

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #423 –
So i contacted Champion Data to get a few things cleared up.....and to my surprise, they replied, albeit 2 weeks later.

Firstly, they confirmed that a hitout to advantage is as i described.
Quote
"A hitout to advantage is a hitout that reaches an intended teammate.

Yes, this player must have the opportunity to dispose of the ball, treat this like an umpire deciding ‘prior opportunity’ if they were going to pay holding the ball."

I also queried hitouts sharked...
Quote
Hitouts sharked are indeed the opposite, it’s a hitout going directly to the opposition, who again must have had time to dispose of the ball.

They were also kind enough to provide me with a spreadsheet...
Quote
"I have attached a spreadsheet with hitout stats for 2023 of the top 50 ruckmen for average ruck contests attended – but I will stress this is a one off, it’s not something we do."
Now unfortunately, that did not include stats for Jack Silvagni as he doesn't attend enough ruck contests (on average), but it does include a few players who have only played 1 game this year which isn't really helpful.
After removing those who have attended less than 100 ruck contests, we have a list of 41, not 50.
But, beggars can't be choosers. - I did ask for Silvagnis stats in a follow up email, but i've been ghosted....as expected (see "one off").

But in any event, i've been able to break down some key stats, both as a whole, and for individuals.

This could be a bit all over the shop, so hope it makes sense.

AFL Wide....
The chance a player attending any given ruck contest will get a hitout to advantage is (RC->HTA%) - 12.9% of the time.
The chance a player attending any given ruck contest will get a hitout sharked is (RC->HTS%) - 8.8% of the time.
Combining these, we see that a player attending any given ruck contest will get hitout that will go to a player 21.7% of the time.
There are 2 rucks in every contest, so we double that and get 43.4% of a ruck contest will find a player (for or against).
That means that 56.6% of ruck contests end in either no hitout, or no hitout to advantage for either team. Essentially meaning 56.6% of all ruck contests are pointless.

Now that Brown stat shows one reason why i've been against having 2 dedicated rucks....especially 2 specialist rucks who can't hold down another position. Majority of their work is literally pointless! The 2nd ruck takes the spot of another player who will no doubt have more influence over the game.

So with that being said, time to break down some stats for individuals. No bias here, if you want to know a player, ask and i'll show you (if i have him), but i'll try and include a top 10 and any other 'notable rucks' in each area. (All these rucks have attended 100+ ruck contests this year) This includes only the first 12 rounds (as thats when i got the data).

So first we start with RC-HTA%
1. Ryan (rich)- 19.2%
2. Pittonet (carl) - 17.8%
3. Stanley (gee) - 17.2%
4. Reeves (haw) - 17.2%
5. Grundy (mel) - 16.4%
6. Flynn (gws) - 16.2%
7. Goldstein (nm) - 16.1%
8. Gawn (mel) - 16%
9. Darcy (fre) - 15.9%
10. Witts (gc) - 15.8%
-----------
Phillips (ess) - 15.6%
De Koning (carl) - 11.9% - (equal 23rd)
English (wb) - 11.5%

Next we go with RC-HTS%
1. Phillips (ess) - 13.4%
2. Darcy (fre) - 13.3%
3. Dixon (pa) - 12.6%
4. Gawn (mel) - 12.4%
5. McInerney (bri) 11.0%
6. OBrien (ade) - 10.4%
7. Reeves (haw) - 10.3%
8. Ryan (rich) - 10.1%
9. Cox (coll) - 10%
10. Lycett (pa) - 9.9%
--------------------
Witts (gc) 9.8%
English (wb) - 8.7%
Grundy (mel) - 8.3%
Pittonet (carl) - 8.2%
De Koning (carl) - 7.4%

Now we have the net result of this. (HTA% less HRS%) I call it Pure HTA%
1. Pittonet (carl) - 9.9%
2. Ryan (rich) - 9.1%
3. Miller (rich) - 8.9%
4. Grundy (mel) - 8.1%
5. Flynn (gws) - 7.9%
6. Goldstein (nm) - 7.7%
7. Moyle (gc) - 7.6%
8. Reeves (haw) - 6.9%
9. Witts (gc) - 6.0%
10. Lobb (wb) - 5.8%
---------
Cameron (coll) - 5.7%
Stanley (gee) - 5.4%
De Koning (carl) - 4.5%
Gawn (mel) - 3.7%
English (wb) - 2.9%
Darcy (fre) - 2.6%
Phillips (ess) - 2%
Dixon (pa) - -1.6%**
Jamieson (wc) - -5.8%**
**These show that including these rucks on the ruck contests actually benefit the opposition more than your own team!


Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #424 –
So short version of the above.

Pittonet, even to my surprise, is the best tap ruckman in the game.
TDK, who rucks to the same players, isn't near the same standard....and is average at best as a ruck.

Sean Darcy who many rate as one of the best rucks in the game in terms of tapwork is actually rather poor considering how much hits it to the opposition.

However, for me, the take home point in all of this, and what many of you guys say, is that its not about the ruck, its about what they do around the ground. To which i agree.....and have agreed all along. We don't NEED 2 rucks. We NEED someone to help us around the ground.....and our rucks are NOT those players (at least not yet).

TDK played his best game for the year. He only got the ball 11 times though. Yes, he kicked a couple of goals this time against some poor opposition. In his other 8 games for the year he's only managed 2 goals.....total.
He doesn't do enough around the ground......yet.
Hopefully he can....but he doesn't yet.

TBH, i'd much rather an extra small in the side, who would get it 20+ times and allow our other smalls to get more of a rest (they do more running/chasing/tackling/pressuring) and give 2nd ruck duties to someone else. Harry, Young, Jack, Cripps....whoever. Remember, 56% of ruck contests are pointless. We can 'sacrifice' some, for benefit elsewhere.

For a team that has been struggling with running/chasing/tackling/pressuring for most of the year, to play 2 rucks seems rather pointless to me. Did before the season, and still does now.
 

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #425 –
re: Darcy.....form has declined since Jacksons arrival, was better when he had Lobb who was more of a 75/25 Forward in the main.
Jackson has really fecked up Freo and its shows how bringing in high paid players to positions you already have covered can ruin your game plan and method.
Tim English on the other hand has had a blinder of a year....doesnt have to play forward much like he did last year and now enter Lobb who has allowed him to ruck most of the game.
The strange aspect is that Lobb as a ruckman is a spud who would struggle against most other rucks but his role is just to give the main ruckman a short rest each quarter and then go forward where he probably does his best work.
Finding that specialist Forward/Ruck is the key imho.......for mine TDK is more of a ruckman than a forward and we dont still have the right mix.

 

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #426 –
For mine this year English is best, followed by Oscar mcinerney and I'd have lycett in that conversation with gawn and Grundy. 

It's a bit of a small sample size and the percentage thing reeks of using stats to justify a point rather than prove it.

56.6% of ruck contests are a draw not pointless.  Surrendering it will change how the stat works.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #427 –
Quote from: Thryleon on
For mine this year English is best, followed by Oscar mcinerney and I'd have lycett in that conversation with gawn and Grundy. 

It's a bit of a small sample size and the percentage thing reeks of using stats to justify a point rather than prove it.

56.6% of ruck contests are a draw not pointless.  Surrendering it will change how the stat works.
Good point about Lycett......but look at his partner Finlayson......gives Lycett a rest here and there but his real value is down forward where he is a threat and regular goalkicker. The Part timer has to be better than a Shaun Grigg/JSOS type to make it work imho.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #428 –
I suspect clubs see Tom De Koning as a Blicavs type player, or at least the possibility to evolve into that, and I suspect that's part of the reason why he is in demand.

Perhaps I'm the only one who sees the similarities between Robert Warnock and Pittonet. Both fine tap ruck men, but some fans and media critical of their around the ground work.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #429 –
Quote from: Thryleon on
For mine this year English is best, followed by Oscar mcinerney and I'd have lycett in that conversation with gawn and Grundy. 

It's a bit of a small sample size and the percentage thing reeks of using stats to justify a point rather than prove it.

56.6% of ruck contests are a draw not pointless.  Surrendering it will change how the stat works.

Small sample size? Its half a seasons worth of stats?!

I'm not sure how you can complain about 'the % thing'. The whole point of the ruck comparisons is that you can compare apples with apples. Using a % is how you do that. I don't know how you can present it any other way. I've only used data from rucks who have competed in 100+ ruck contests (fwiw, the most was 958). When you have players who haven't played a whole year or have been playing solo/in tandem, there is no other way to compare them.

I honestly didn't know the results of the top 10's until i started typing them out. I expected Pittonet to be in the top 10, and knew TDK would not be, but to see him #1 was a surprise to me (think i said as much as well). Without ever seeing the hitouts sharked stats (i don't think anyone has) i didn't know what to expect. I'm happy it confirms what my eyes have been telling me for years though.

One last point, about the draw/pointless ruck contests....
Obviously its a bit bitter sweet without the Jack Silvagni stats, but part of my spruiking him as a ruck option was based on my observations as well. That is, he doesn't win as much as most, but he managed to nullify the opposition as good as anyone....that is, earn a draw. Which from your backup ruck, is all you need to do, break even.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #430 –
Quote from: PaulP on
I suspect clubs see Tom De Koning as a Blicavs type player, or at least the possibility to evolve into that, and I suspect that's part of the reason why he is in demand.

Perhaps I'm the only one who sees the similarities between Robert Warnock and Pittonet. Both fine tap ruck men, but some fans and media critical of their around the ground work.

Big difference between Warnock/Pittonet is strength.
Warnock was about the weakest bloke to ever compete in a ruck contest. He got away with using his height, which was greater than all else. Pittonet is about average height for a ruck (202cm) so he has to rely on his body work and strength....as we know he isn't a great jumper either.

Both could do more around the ground....but that could be said about half of the rucks on an AFL list.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #431 –
Quote from: kruddler on
Big difference between Warnock/Pittonet is strength.
Warnock was about the weakest bloke to ever compete in a ruck contest. He got away with using his height, which was greater than all else. Pittonet is about average height for a ruck (202cm) so he has to rely on his body work and strength....as we know he isn't a great jumper either.

Both could do more around the ground....but that could be said about half of the rucks on an AFL list.

Yes no doubt Warnock was a beanpole. I thought he was treated a little harshly by Carlton fans. Constantly injured and found it hard to get any kind of consistency or momentum going.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #432 –
Quote from: PaulP on
Yes no doubt Warnock was a beanpole. I thought he was treated a little harshly by Carlton fans. Constantly injured and found it hard to get any kind of consistency or momentum going.

I can't recall who it was, but it was a collingwood player who was holding onto warnock in a push and shove, laughing in his face.
Warnock tried to break the hold by whacking away the pies player hand and he simply couldn't do it. He was thumping his fist into his opponents hand/arm trying to make him let go and he was simply getting laughed at......and rightly so IMO, it was pathetic.

Not saying his tapwork wasn't underrated, but he was lacking in other areas. Pittonet for all his limitations is what you want from a big guy. Loves a push and shove, love throwing his weight around, and does so with a smile on his face. TDK is probably somewhere in the middle, leaning towards the warnock side a touch.
You want your big men to be enforcers and to stand up for their teammates, not embarrass them.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #433 –
Pittonet has never played a game as good as TDK's yesterday.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #434 –
Quote from: madbluboy on
Pittonet has never played a game as good as TDK's yesterday.
I have to admit, TDK rose to the challenge against Witts yesterday.
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time