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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Thryleon -
Quote from: madbluboy – on
When we made the prelim in 2023 I thought it was the beginning of about 5 years of finals and being a contender. I didn't think we would be rebuilding 2 years later.
2 years is a long time in footy.  2 years earlier the Dees were premiers and we didnt look like making finals.

Instead we beat them against the odds (which tells a story of itself) to make a prelim from outside the top 4.

Whilst we all expected to go on with it, 12 months later when the wheels had fallen off, it became apparent that the game had gone away from us.
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by PaulP -
Whilst I acknowledge this thread is about the list improving or worsening, I am a little surprised about the lack of discussion throughout the forum of things beyond the list. Leaving aside the obvious ultimate goal of a premiership, what we all want to see is more wins and more convincing form. Improvement can come from a number of sources, which are not always on field and when they are, they're not easy to gauge or measure. It may be that Davies and Wright will provide leadership and direction that has been previously lacking, which will flow through the organization. It may be that the presence of Boak, Simpson, and new assistant coaches will give Voss the support and feedback he needs to go to the next level. There may have been disharmony and distraction throughout the playing group wrt Charlie, De Koning and Jack Silvagni - perhaps that is now in the past, and a more unified, less distracted group may play better football. We have finally have better luck with injuries etc.

Treating the players as atomistic, self contained entities, like parts of a machine, certainly has its place, but can only take you so far IMO. 
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Baggers -
Quote from: tonyo – on
List building can only generate success if you have the right development program in place.

Let's hope that the apparent re-directed focus towards recruiting talented youngsters is accompanied by (i) building a development program that allows them to reach their full footballing potential and (ii) increasing the profile of quality role-models among the existing playing group to show the way.

For the first time in many years at CFC, it feels like there is a good core of young guys who may make the grade.  I cannot wait to see if the natural enthusiasm of talented youth will drive some of the existing playing group to new heights.

While the players who have left are undoubtedly talented, there was also a fair whiff of prima-donna about them.   Give me hard-working, committed players over show-ponies any day.

I am an eternal optimist, but I think we may all be pleasantly surprised by what we see in 2026.

Noice. Well said, Big T. I'd also humbly add - leadership, which also seems to have moved the needle in the right direction.
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The Sports Desk / Re: God help me - the Test Cricket thread
Last post by DJC -
Steve Smith is getting on a bit for an elite sportsman and I don't think that he'd pass a skinfold test.  That's a little surprising given the energy he must burn while in perpetual motion at the batting crease.

This is not fat shaming as I'm more than happy to see elite sportsmen and women who aren't built like racing greyhounds.  It makes me not so worried about not being able to see my toes   :)

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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by tonyo -
List building can only generate success if you have the right development program in place.

Let's hope that the apparent re-directed focus towards recruiting talented youngsters is accompanied by (i) building a development program that allows them to reach their full footballing potential and (ii) increasing the profile of quality role-models among the existing playing group to show the way.

For the first time in many years at CFC, it feels like there is a good core of young guys who may make the grade.  I cannot wait to see if the natural enthusiasm of talented youth will drive some of the existing playing group to new heights.

While the players who have left are undoubtedly talented, there was also a fair whiff of prima-donna about them.   Give me hard-working, committed players over show-ponies any day. 

I am an eternal optimist, but I think we may all be pleasantly surprised by what we see in 2026.
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Thryleon -
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Thryleon – on
People have faith in the current list management team, because of the car crash that has surrounded our footy club in this department outside of Silvagni.  Austin is not a departure from his approach.  He is more of the same, just with a different name.  You dont like him because you dont agree with his strategy (or the clubs direction) but thats more of a philosophical question that can only be discussed in theory.  The second we do something different, you lose the ability to prove or disprove something.   Hence why you come across like screaming into the void, and most people on here going, well, you cannot actually assert that and be proven correct.  All you can do is point to a failing and say I told you so.  Even that failing though is potentially based on a pre conceived idea. Austin didnt strengthen our list for 2026.  He didnt do it for 2025 either.  That much is true, but the list composition that got us to a prelim in 2023 was as much by his machinations as it was by SOS.  Do we get there without his moves to secure, Cerra, Hewett and Saad?  Probably not but that flaky underbelly that we have all hated at our club has persisted during both recruiters regimes.  SOS did a good job with us.  It could have been better, and he will rightly admit that, but he played the hand he was dealt.  Austin effectively did similar.  We are glossing over something else here too.  To me, the thing that stopped us more than anything else was dumb luck.   A run of season ending injuries ive not seen in a footy club before since 2015. 

...

Thing is, HOF was good.  ACL.  Jagga appears to have all the right stuff said about him.  ACL.  We have Dean joining the fray, and we also have Walker coming in, but then the AFL have pulled a fast one on us.  Instead of getting the guys without the premium draft picks, ala Daicos and all the Brisbane Father sons like Fletcher and Ashcrofts x2 we have had to pony up to get them.  So that means looking at futures rather than the now.  It had to mean sacrificing selecting a key tall to net in additional draft picks next year.  To me, that was as simple as they wont help us now, and we will need them moving forward to flesh out the following.

....

Rightly or wrongly, our club has made the decision to neglect the short term and gamble on a few players that are not dial movers but solid citizens (to be frank, using history as a guide, our rise was fleeting, and too much went wrong to sustain us up there and most of the truly big clubs never really feared us as Geelong has been the only side with bonafides we have consistently troubled over the last 5 years) in an effort to carry us forward.  Thing is, this might be enough if it all goes well enough, which thus far it hasnt.  I wouldnt be banking on it all going swimmingly either, as that just doesnt happen at Carlton, but you never say never.  Irrespective, I see enough in what we are doing to prevent us bottoming out once Cripps goes, and potentially to get us back up the ladder fairly quickly and hopefully removing that flaky under belly in the process. 

Maybe im too optimistic about it, but I can see what they are trying to do, and that is enough for me.  @kruddler you seem to be most negative about what they are doing and I understand that too, as there is no time like the present and we need to be getting better now, but old Carlton used to walk that road.  Old Carlton would top up with a couple of players and then put us in the mix.  Thing is, old Carlton is dead, and any attempts we make to resuscitate it seem to end up causing premature bottoming out, and doesnt look to be a sustainable way of moving forward.  I have a cousin who is similarly minded.  He is in his late 40's and always likes to bag me out for not understanding the old Carlton way because im only in my early 40's, but I remember what it was like.  Thing is, that was over half my lifetime ago, and I dont see the point in attempting to emulate old Carlton.  The competition has 5 extra teams now, and attempting to be old Carlton has simply delivered our worst performing 20 years in the clubs history, with a few highlights.  So am happy there is a plan, we are executing it, and it seems to have its heart in the right place.  Will the results marry up?  Im not sure, but I for one am happy to have a proffessional approach which will hopefully avoid years of pain.  I can handle a couple of dissapointing years, but not another decade of "rebuilding".

For the record, i'm only 45, so this is not about 'old carlton'.

I like to think i'm very modern in my thinking. I am always looking at ways to improve our team, our club and the entire AFL competition but get shouted down by traditionalists who say thats not how things are done.

I find it amusing that my 'go to the draft for KPPs' is now 'outdated'. The alternative being poach them from somewhere else later.
To me THAT is 'old carlton' and a poor way to ensure success. Carlton doesn't have the same aura (or brown paper bags) to facilitate such moves like they did in the past. Its a strategy that relies on other teams coming to the party.....and i don't want to rely on other teams doing our work. I'd much rather take that out of their hands. Otherwise its another year of 'but there was nothing available, can't blame the recruiters for that'. Well you can, because thats the path they took and they should've planned that better!

Anyway, i've highlighted a few bits from your above post.
Since i'm seemingly in the minority and arguing with many people, it seems not everyone i'm arguing against is on the same page.
The first part is something that you concede and agree with me on. However, others in a similar position to you cannot come to the same conclusion. That worries me as thats pretty clear to me and makes me think i'm arguing with overly emotive people who cannot see reason.
Everyones entitled to their opinion, but i can't see any evidence to back that up, just navy glasses in action IMO.

The second highlighted part is something i disagree with. I pointed out before it happened that we did NOT need to overlook KPP. We chose too. Big difference. I flagged moving up a couple spots on night 2 to make sure we got 'our guy' whover that may be (for me it was Ludowyck - for the club it was Emmett) and ensuring we could still get Ison. I don't know if the club tried, but ultimately they didn't. Whether that a failure, or simply choosing not too....same result.

Third part...our club has chosen to ignore the short term....which is fine....i suggested it was a distinct possibility that we would need to IF TDK left and Charlie left (and Jack while we are at it). Problem is, we are trying to be half-pregnant. Why didn't we try and sell off some more talent now. Cripps might want to go home. Harry might be better off elsewhere etc etc.
The way we are tracking, they will most likely end up counting the days and rueing this time at the end of their careers when they 'could/should' have moved on.

Finally...ultimately i think you are being too optimistic.
I'm sure plenty of people saying i'm being too negative.



I like to consider myself a realist.  Despite losing Charlie tdk and jsos, I think we wont miss their 2025 output.  Some of our worst losses this season featured all 3.  Our best win for the year had all of them (Geelong), but our best loss for the year only featured TDK (gold coast) where Frankie turned it on.  Thats not to say we'll be better.  I think we've brought in some players to make us better than that team that day.  Thing is, we can improve just by having a better run with fitness.  Anyway it's old ground, but kemp played 5 games for the year. Walsh missed significant footy, jagga hasn't fired a shot etc.

Sometimes, your arguments are scattergun.  Thats fine but it reeks of agenda.

SOS said he cut too deep, here you are saying trade more.  We've lost some solid players when you add docherty to it.  Not sure shedding more helps short term, and we saw how likely it is to lure players during a rebuild and it probably just elongates a bottoming out. Been there done that.  Lesson learned so we arent doing that again.  Not worth it for this draft either.  It was not a highly rated draft and lots of teams had academy picks which meant picking talent on offer positioning a relative nightmare.  Where im a bit torn is when we could have drafted Curtin instead of Byrne but the decision has been made now and im choosing to wait till I see the kid before I criticise this much more. 

Your also saying we should have aimed to be stronger for 2026.  Weve probably hedged the bets surrounding walker and trading with tassie sufficiently to suggest that the futures you wouldnt have taken may be a better strategy or trading out additional players not netting us much better at the trade table either.

What we are doing is looking at an outcome.  I think the only key tall we had an interest in was jed walter.  Time may have been the enemy there, but he'll be gettable in a year if jamarra catches fire.

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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Thryleon -
Quote from: DJC – on
You don't build a list by selling off talent, particularly when that talent is invested in the club and provides a role model and leadership on and off the field.  Those qualities are why I believe that we'll miss Doc more than the other three.

That said, footy clubs and their players are resilient and are used to change.  Our players have mentioned the challenge and excitement of new teammates and new coaches.  They don't sook about a teammate going to another club or a favourite coach moving on.  They just get on with the job.

List managers aren't focused on our best 23 for next season.  They've got lots of balls in the air and are planning several seasons ahead both in terms of potential new players and those who may want to move on or have passed their use by date.  Think back to SOS's "sustainable list".

I'm interested to know what Thry means by "old Carlton".  To me, "old Carlton" went when SOS and his crew moved into a list management hub, adopted the Boston Red Sox's list management database and began using an analytics program for player evaluation.  Austin has moved further forward with a dedicated list management strategy guru and data analysts to crunch the numbers.  No wonder some supporters struggle to keep up.

We only have one survivor from the "old Carlton" days now, not that there weren't a handful that had decent careers.
old Carlton wouldnt have drafted youth at all.  Wouldn't have prioritised jagga, Dean and walker, would have traded out these picks for players, and attempted to climb the ladder that way.
We've attempted both.  The players weve gotten could be great, or could be average.  Theres always a possibility that we infect them with the Carlton malaise.
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
Quote from: kruddler – on
@Lods....could be wrong...but what ive been saying for years has proven correct thus far.
Draft kpps before you need them so you don't get caught red handed... like we have been.

Replace a guy who plays every game of the year and fulfills multiple roles for you with someone other than a draftee.

Not all of my jumping up and down is about what happens from here. Its about what has happened to get us to here and I've said it at the time, so it's not with the benefit of hindsight.

I don't expect you to see what i see through my eyes and with my thoughts. What you see on here is only a snippet.

I'm not the only one who thinks we will drop this year. I might be the loudest voice, but in but the only one.

Don't you feel a change in focus the last two years?
I think there is a vast difference to our recruiting, and the players we're bringing in in recent times
Anything prior to 2023 is ancient history...we need to put those days behind us and they shouldn't even be a consideration, because you can't change the past.
Kennedy had a good year at the Bulldogs but would he have played every game with us if Smith and Walsh had played all year, would Hewett have played so well given they would probably have shared duties...and on the other side of the coin would Cooper Lord have been given as much game time had he stayed...even Evans would probably have missed out on his opportunities if Kennedy played forward.
Kennedy's loss was well covered...If we're hanging our hat on his ruck abilities it's a very small hatstand.

Now just on our weaknesses...it certainly wasn't a lack of talls down back.
Our defence held up pretty well.
In fact it was only 2-3 points per game worse than the premiers.
The only two tall forwards who gave us any trouble were King and Georgiades in the first Port game. He was well held in the second.

The problems centred mostly around inefficiency in the forward line. Not only entry into the forward line but the inability to keep it there, and disposal efficiency once inside. It was terrible...and Curnow's inability to offer much of a contest once the ball hit the deck was a contributing factor.
Surely that is better this year...and with some of the youngsters like O'Keefe and Moir with a years more experience, it could enhance that...and that's even before we consider the new boys.

It's not a Utopia, but it's not a Disaster either.
For every negative there is more than likely a positive, and how it all plays out depends on the usual variables like luck, form and injury.