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Topic: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) (Read 802482 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1125 –
Quote from: Amers – on
And what make your sources more reliable, because you agree with them?

Is any media source reliable in these days? Or do we all, not just PP like to read and listen to the ones we agree with and then often/sometimes try to discredit the ones we don't?

Smoke and mirrors, alternate truth is BS, but trying to find the real truth amongst all the BS is worse than trying to find a needle in a haystack!

Ooh, I dunno, fluffy pointless things like facts, evidence, concession, variation, lack of name calling....................

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1127 –
Apart from Trump's disgraceful attempt to gain a political advantage from the murders of Mia Ayliffe-Chung and Tom Jackson (and many other faked account of under reporting), his claim that common sense should override the law was today's jaw dropping highlight  :o

I'm not sure that Trump's version of common sense is common or involves much sense but what really scares me is that he thinks his view of the world should take precedence over statute. Hopefully, the US obsession with constitutional compliance will prevail over Trump's uncommon sense.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1128 –
There is lots of fake twitter being perpetuated about trump at the moment.

I'm not sure if it's cut copy paste to keep the clicks and comments going but I'm finding it in rather poor taste.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1129 –
America is in a mess. 'Alternative truths' are their new reality, with  creeps like Bannon, Spicer, Conway and Dump himself just talking fabricated crud at every opportunity.
They're in a very weird and dangerous place right now

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1130 –
Quote from: Dominator_7 – on
America is in a mess. 'Alternative truths' are their new reality, with  creeps like Bannon, Spicer, Conway and Dump himself just talking fabricated crud at every opportunity.
They're in a very weird and dangerous place right now

That's a given.

A concern though is that it's not all flowing from one side, and some of the hysteria, exaggeration and fear-mongering from the Trump opponents means that things won't settle quickly.

The danger then becomes the reactions on either side and how the general American public will be influenced by it.

While you can't expect people to just accept actions they perceive as morally wrong, extreme acts or actions perceived as blocking for the sake of delaying policy only play into the hands of those in control.
They don't convince folk to change their opinion (they're preaching to the converted) but rather tend to reinforce the position of those they're opposing.

A foul mouthed hysterical "professor" shouting abuse at NYPD officers doing their job wont win you sympathy for your cause no matter how deeply and passionately it's felt, it will have the opposite effect.

Blocking people from speaking at a University won't help your cause...it will turn those who believe in free speech.

One of the big hypocrisies of the moment is that people attack Trump for his attitudes but have no problem mocking and vilifying the man on a personal level.

But how do you approach it?....measured and sensible debate, use the courts (they're there as a "check and balance"), non violent protests....lose the signs and slogans, carry a candle or a flower instead....and most importantly focus on the policy and not the man.
The opposite of hate is peace and love

Haters are haters...and they're nasty horrible people
They appear on both sides of the political spectrum.
But here's the big problem with being a hater.
When you're a "hater" off goes your head and on goes a pumpkin.
Rational thought goes out the window.

Yep it's a mess

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1131 –
^^

Historically speaking, I have only witnessed such dramatic media and propaganda campaigns around revolution.

The thing with revolution though is it normally occurs on the back of the people "fighting back" against a ruling class that they see as not looking after public interesting.

This time its about the person and not what they are doing or how they are doing it.

I am no Trump apologist, but if this is the way people are acting 3 weeks into a new presidency just because their proposed candidate didnt win, then Id say they are about to have a real revolutionary change that most people will suffer from.



"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1132 –
Don't just look at Trump or at the demonstrators on the street. Look at who's behind them and the history of those people and organisations. I don't believe we are witnessing revolution at all, but more an internecine struggle between different warring sections of the elites, with mainly their foot soldiers on the streets, save for a few genuine ones.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1133 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
Don't just look at Trump or at the demonstrators on the street. Look at who's behind them and the history of those people and organisations. I don't believe we are witnessing revolution at all, but more an internecine struggle between different warring sections of the elites, with mainly their foot soldiers on the streets, save for a few genuine ones.

Historically speaking that's exactly how revolutions begin and how Governments have been overthrown.  What it usually results in is war.  Sometimes Civil, but over the last 100 years its mainly been more geopolitically focussed.


From what I can see, we are living in a crony capitalist and crony democratic world, where people are sold the illusion of choice and freedom to comply with the ruling class.

Its possible that Trump winning the election has made reality hit home, and Id wager that people are fed up with politics.  The thing is, this isnt isolated to the USA, from what I can see people have been turning away from elections globally and are generally turning to non traditional political options in liew of voting for the status quo because they are genuinely tired of the crap they are served up.



"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1134 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Historically speaking that's exactly how revolutions begin and how Governments have been overthrown.  What it usually results in is war.  Sometimes Civil, but over the last 100 years its mainly been more geopolitically focussed.


From what I can see, we are living in a crony capitalist and crony democratic world, where people are sold the illusion of choice and freedom to comply with the ruling class.

Its possible that Trump winning the election has made reality hit home, and Id wager that people are fed up with politics.  The thing is, this isnt isolated to the USA, from what I can see people have been turning away from elections globally and are generally turning to non traditional political options in liew of voting for the status quo because they are genuinely tired of the crap they are served up.

You make a good point Thry...this is the era of the alternates, the anything different must be better than what we have viewpoint... a lot of people are doing it tough and Trump is seen as a messiah no one cares how he does it, they just want the problems in the USA fixed,watched a doco on Russian neo nazi type groups and there is real hatred of foreigners in Russia...Putin fuels it and he is now a loved figure by disenfranchised Russian youth.
Find someone to blame for your countries problems and you are a fair chance to get elected...I'm not an expert on Greek Politics but the far right group "Golden Dawn" seemed to have emerged in a similar fashion...
The whole  thing reminds me of a little german corporal who sold the same message of blame for his countries problems and got himself into power...
Lucky we live in Australia...

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1135 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Historically speaking that's exactly how revolutions begin and how Governments have been overthrown.  What it usually results in is war.  Sometimes Civil, but over the last 100 years its mainly been more geopolitically focussed.


From what I can see, we are living in a crony capitalist and crony democratic world, where people are sold the illusion of choice and freedom to comply with the ruling class.

Its possible that Trump winning the election has made reality hit home, and Id wager that people are fed up with politics.  The thing is, this isnt isolated to the USA, from what I can see people have been turning away from elections globally and are generally turning to non traditional political options in liew of voting for the status quo because they are genuinely tired of the crap they are served up.

I'd pretty much agree with that Thry, people are becoming more aware and more tired of the situation, but I don't think it will necessarily result in a grass roots inspired revolution, more a takeover and new direction by another grouping of the ruling oligarchy. I just hope it will be to all of our benefit - time will tell.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1136 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
I'd pretty much agree with that Thry, people are becoming more aware and more tired of the situation, but I don't think it will necessarily result in a grass roots inspired revolution, more a takeover and new direction by another grouping of the ruling oligarchy. I just hope it will be to all of our benefit - time will tell.

We will definately only find out in due course.

What worries me is not what is happening, or what we are hearing about, its what we don't hear about.  The crisis in Yemen is one that has everyone blindsided probably because its the people in the area fighting against a western backed regime.  Very interesting stuff.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
You make a good point Thry...this is the era of the alternates, the anything different must be better than what we have viewpoint... a lot of people are doing it tough and Trump is seen as a messiah no one cares how he does it, they just want the problems in the USA fixed,watched a doco on Russian neo nazi type groups and there is real hatred of foreigners in Russia...Putin fuels it and he is now a loved figure by disenfranchised Russian youth.
Find someone to blame for your countries problems and you are a fair chance to get elected...I'm not an expert on Greek Politics but the far right group "Golden Dawn" seemed to have emerged in a similar fashion...
The whole  thing reminds me of a little german corporal who sold the same message of blame for his countries problems and got himself into power...
Lucky we live in Australia...

Golden dawn have been building momentum for a long time amonst minorities in Greece.

Their building popularity has been fueled for multiple reasons.

1.  The traditional centre "neutrals" bled the country dry and from what we can tell ran the system based on nepotism.  If you voted in the equivalent of trump, they would install numerous family members to regions of cabinet, spend a lot of money on government projects built by family that were never completed or delivered probably leaving the country where it is today.  One of the notables has fled with all his cash.  Samaras and Papandreou are the culprits reportedly.

2.  The signal that the people had well and truly lost sight of everything was when Syriza (a Communist lefty party, who are considered greater than moderately left, but not extreme) formed government, but could only do so in coalition with other parties.  They did so on the similar promise to deliver change and haven't really delivered any real difference to the status quo and due to talking a big game and not delivering have been regarded as weak.  (I personally think they have navigated a fairly torrid time as best as they could given the complexity of the area which is ironic considering how little pressure exists on a nation like the USA yet have arrived to a similar conclusion).

3.  The migrant crisis and subsequent shunning of welfare spending (mandated by EU) has made the public opinion become one where the country's future is so bleak that we are seeing migration on a large scale from Greece to other nations from the demographic the country can least afford to lose.  Adults between 20-40 who are of working age trying to forge a future for their families because economic recovery is a long way away.  People are tired.  The battle is a long haul one, and no one seems to be serving Greece's best interests (Geopolitically they are however as its not as simple as cutting and running).  The nation is weak.  Turkey are not that strong but could quite easily invade if they liked, and they have been sanctioned invaders once already in Cyprus.  We appear to have learned from the sins of the past, and have not antagonised those around us as any desperate people would, but the people are desperate and desperation can result in very rash decisions being made.

4.  As you say, people are genuinely wanting an alternative, and the proposition of putting Greece "first" is being floated by Golden Dawn.  For all the poor publicism they get regarding being right wing fascist, I see them for what they are.  A nationalist party, trying to fight for their nation, which is traditionally communist in nature.  They may not be as extreme as they are made out to be but in any national party you are likely to foster the sorts of ideals and attract the "Goebels" type.  It suits the current ruling parties agenda to paint them in a bad light, and a lot of public perception about them is that they are to be feared because they will lead to fascist agendas being fostered in Greece.  In reality the country does need to shift more towards the right side of politics than it traditionally has been.  It has been overly reliant on heavy public sector employment and spending, and privatisation on the back of genuine investment is required.  Privatisation is deemed to be evil in Greece.  We are talking about a heavily run public sector nation, who are used to the red tape, and easy life of working for the government who are too busy lining their own pockets to care about who is earning money for nothing in the lower levels.  I think Greece needs to shift towards right wing policy from the position they are in, and what they need is a genuine alternative.  A party that sits in terms of policy between where Golden Dawn reportedly sit on the "left/right spectrum" and closer to the leftists that are currently in power.



Global Politics is interesting.

People apply their blanket understanding of how politics work yet fail to understand that not all nations are "in the same boat" and not all right wing governments are fascist, and not all of them will result in a "holocaust".

I consider myself pragmatic.  A particular government is not good or bad, depending on the circumstances they are all required to a certain level to "keep the bastards honest".  Where it gets tricky is that power tends to corrupt.  I see Golden Dawn as heading down the road to extremes, and perhaps annoying everyone off who we actually rely on to stay a sovereign nation, and who's backing we require to protect certain geopolitical interests but they are no where near fascist and any perceived likeness to Nazi Germany is more perception and propaganda than not.  They would not be good for Greece in the long term, but in the short term would likely improve things for the people living in Greece by making deals that will see economic recovery.


When you look at the volatility that exists in europe currently, I struggle to figure out why Americans of all people "have had enough".

Obviously, I don't know much about their nation, but what is the struggle?  Is it class division?  Economic down turn?  Infringement of rights is plainly a falsehood.  They have more rights than most people around the world.  what kills me, is when their rich and famous pretend to care for their fellow man, when they return to their billion dollar houses in the upmarket parts of hollywood, and live a lavish lifestyle that many of their fellow countrymen and women don't enjoy.

make America great again. Great slogan, it seems to have won in the court of public opinion, but I dont see any reason to suggest that Trump will make America great again.  He can build the great wall of mexico, visible from the moon, and from what I have read, it will save a lot of money, and time for the border patrollers if he reinforces the wall (note it already exists on the border of California and mexico) but I dont see how this achieves anything for their nation.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1137 –
@ Thry

If you want what I think is a good summary of the problems in the US and the lead up to Trump I recommend watching a film called "Requiem for the American Dream" featuring Noam Chomsky. He is pretty dry but his insights are fascinating. Prepare to be depressed though.

PS. Just read the thoughts of Bill Murray on the situation. "A few years ago we had Steve Jobs, Johnny Cash and Bob Hope. Now we have no jobs, no cash and no hope."
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1138 –
I  don't think a lot of the backlash is purely just because Clinton didn't win.
With every stupid/arrogant/disrespectful new action of Dump's (and he seems to be doing, saying or tweeting something dumb daily), and every new flagrant lie of Spicer's and Conway's to the media,  they just keep adding fuel to the fire.
I mean you couldn't be making the stuff up the things they re doing and saying over there right now...  The country is in chaos.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1139 –
Yep.  I can't believe how much Trump and Kim Jong-Un have in common.  They both have a buffoonish air which makes them seem innocuous but both are true totalitarians (Putin would qualify as the latter but not the former - Putin is scary not clownish).

Both have the desire to impose alternative reality as fact.  That Kim Jong-Un is more extreme is no doubt due only to the fact he has a big head start on Trump.  But if Trump can tame the press and ride roughshod over constitutional and legal constraints, I fear he'd make full use of his power.

The most startling example is how he personally tweeted the murder rate is bigger than it's been in 45 years and the laws have to change.  He went for a two-for-one deal by attacking the press for not reporting this murder mayhem.  As the press quickly pointed out, the rate is well down on the 80s and 90s even if there had been a small spike recently.  Sean Spicer and Kelly-Anne Conway then argued that this is what he meant and so Trump wasn't lying.  But today he comes out saying he's reacting to the crime emergency and will be giving the police more powers and shielding the police from being held accountable for abuses of power.

Wow!  Straight out of Orwell's 1984!  Don't worry about facts.  Just create a threat which needs to be addressed.  Scare the citizens and come to their rescue ...