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Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1785 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
The Democrats have been buddying up to corporate America for decades. The Clintons, Obama, Biden all as matey with the elites as any Republican. They appeal to dim witted liberals who still believe that voting actually involves genuine choice.

Spot on.  And the major casualty is democracy itself.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1786 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
I bet you love the work of George Carlin (one of my fave comedians, by the way).

Love his work. Sadly no longer with us.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1787 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Anti establishment figures like Trump will always appeal when the establishment lets people down. Both the Democrats and Republicans have left common folk for dead, and its been happening for decades. Along comes a figure like Trump who has no allegiance to anything expect himself, and portrays himself as a person who won't be told what to do by anyone, dances to his own tune, will fix the country, the Democrats, the Republicans and everything in between. Add in nonsense like making America great again, and the usual scapegoating of minorities, and his appeal to a disenfranchised and ill informed body politic becomes obvious. It's happened often enough throughout history.

But focusing on him rather than the system is a waste of time.

Anyone who doesn't primarily represent the interests of one or another section of the US billionaire class is very very unlikely to ever get to be POTUS.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1788 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
Anyone who doesn't primarily represent the interests of one or another section of the US billionaire class is very very unlikely to ever get to be POTUS.

Yes, and also very unlikely to get even close to being in influential positions in either party. I don't think either of them functions as a traditional party. The base has no power or relevance. You can't even get on the DNC unless you're a "super delegate", which basically means a lobbyist or similar. You need bucket loads of money to run for Pres.

Interesting to note that both parties agree on about 90% of proposed legislation, and in order to stimulate the idea that genuine choice exists, Fox News etc. has to stoke the fire of nothing issues under the broad umbrella of the Culture Wars i.e, same sex marriage, should we have a black / female / gay president etc. It's crazy stuff.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1789 –
@ Paul
Yes indeed. The media is owned by the same billionaires that control the political class.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1790 –
if you're into Michael Moore doco's his latest shines some light on US politics, and he pretty much agrees.  It's not farenheit 9/11, it's farenheit 11/9 this time, for a reason i can't remember.  The system is busted, the parties pretty much cater to those with the most wealth and power.  The parties can and do overturn the popular vote - they only allow party reps they sanction, regardless of what the people want.  the select few pretty much run the show to ensure the select few stay rich.  they're screwed.  i suspect the day will come when they regret allowing the general populace to have so many military weapons in their cupboards.  but i think things will have to get completely horrendous for that to happen.

if you look at dictatorships, and how they get started, it's generally been an uprising by a charismatic leader who cons the masses into fighting for him (on their behalf he says, as he shakes his fist).  perhaps if things turn to poo over there, and Trump is still around, but not in office, he'll con enough of the masses to storm the whitehouse and he'll make himself glorious leader for the rest of his life.  then he can hand the power over to his kids and fulfill his god given destiny (or whatever crazy dream drives him).

I wonder just how close to a meltdown the US is?  It is usually only when the situation is dire that circumstances allow crazy people to take power.  Trump was elected in 2016, so things can't have been great over there already.  Seriously, how did that even happen?  Add some covid fuel to the fire, and some really crazy stuff must be just around the corner. 

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1791 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Anti establishment figures like Trump will always appeal when the establishment lets people down. Both the Democrats and Republicans have left common folk for dead, and its been happening for decades. Along comes a figure like Trump who has no allegiance to anything expect himself, and portrays himself as a person who won't be told what to do by anyone, dances to his own tune, will fix the country, the Democrats, the Republicans and everything in between. Add in nonsense like making America great again, and the usual scapegoating of minorities, and his appeal to a disenfranchised and ill informed body politic becomes obvious. It's happened often enough throughout history.

But focusing on him rather than the system is a waste of time.

I don't think it's either/or, Pauly... it's both the system - in this case the US system, and the person - in this case, the orange Orangutan. How does a system become that dysfunctional that a psychologically ill-equipped buffoon/criminal can skate into the White House on a 40 year slope of bullsh1te? A clean shaven Rasputin with a red tie he might well be! Only he's fckng the entire country and not just the Tsarina.

You've mentioned Naom Chomsky. Almost 30 years ago I sat through the long, laborious yet brilliant, Manufacturing Consent. And was a Chompsky fan thereafter. But also looked for other commentators who could explain America but with less verbiage.

Chompsky is right and accurate but being a deeply contemplative human being who can actually see the many factors influencing whatever the 'system' is, he tackles deeply complex explanations dragging each syllable and word up from his boot laces. In a 'sound bite' culture he also tends to not be so attractive to the uneducated masses with his superior intelligence, unmatched academia and lacerating account of the truth. Probably why M. Moore is so popular, he gives the 'populist' culture dashes of entertainment with their unpalatable truth. Another commentator of note on this subject is Neil Postman... I bet you've read, 'Amusing Ourselves To Death.' One of my favourite books to this day, although having read it in the mid 80s (oh, and if anything, what he discusses has only gotten worse).

I recall John Pilger saying, when responding to a question regarding how does he get away with such controversial articles and discourses, probably two decades ago, that as a self sufficient investigative journalist there are no clackers to kiss (my words) so no-one to interfere with his passion for truth. Malcolm Moore is in the same boat (funding wise). I wonder how many Murdoch journalists feel they've sold their talents to the devil? Or are unsavoury pr1cks to begin with so buddying up to Murdoch (and the many, many of his ilk) suits them fine.

That's probably why I like the political and social commentary of George Carlin... a comedy great who can sharply summarise with great skill... if you're so inclined, here's a sample BUT if you don't like 'salty' language, George mightn't be for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9CjBtv7j78

Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1792 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
Love his work. Sadly no longer with us.

I think I've seen all his political, social commentary stuff, Fluffy One. Maybe one day we can enjoy a 'beverage' together and watch George at his best.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1793 –
I have many American cousins, mostly in Texas and related to me through my father’s family.  They are a diverse lot, but what they do share is a loathing of Trump and his macho populist agenda.

They are vehement and outspoken in their opposition to Trump and what they see as his attack on their democracy.  What I’m not sure about is how widespread their views are.  Those views are certainly shared by my American friends, but they are scientists and archaeologists and certainly don’t represent a majority.

I’m not entirely sure that Paul’s assessment of US democracy is accurate but I think that it is clear that it is struggling under the constraints of an 18th century constitution.  Our 19th century version doesn’t do us any favours either.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1794 –
Quote from: DJC – on
...
I’m not entirely sure that Paul’s assessment of US democracy is accurate but I think that it is clear that it is struggling under the constraints of an 18th century constitution.  Our 19th century version doesn’t do us any favours either.


You can listen to guys like Chris Hedges, Chomsky and maybe Richard Wolff, and form your own conclusions.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1795 –
Quote from: DJC – on
I have many American cousins, mostly in Texas and related to me through my father’s family.  They are a diverse lot, but what they do share is a loathing of Trump and his macho populist agenda.

They are vehement and outspoken in their opposition to Trump and what they see as his attack on their democracy.  What I’m not sure about is how widespread their views are.  Those views are certainly shared by my American friends, but they are scientists and archaeologists and certainly don’t represent a majority.

I’m not entirely sure that Paul’s assessment of US democracy is accurate but I think that it is clear that it is struggling under the constraints of an 18th century constitution.  Our 19th century version doesn’t do us any favours either.


Important points you raise, David. I have a number of friends in the US also and even a couple of clients. And they sure aint enamoured with the Orangutan. Though one buddy, from Arlington Texas as it happens, is a Republican and does make excuses for Trump... but also sees that the bloke is more for himself than anyone else. Another buddy, coincidentally from Arlington Virginia, reminded me when expressing amazement at the election of Trump that the US was settled by religious zealots and that influence is strong in around half the population, who are vulnerable to accepting anything an 'authority' says and are soaked in nationalism/patriotism which makes them very easy to manipulate. The writings of John Taylor Gatto, former NY teacher, help us to understand the poor performance of education in the US and how it actually contributes to the dumbing down of the population.

But the one thing I noticed when I was there for a month in '93 was the amazing hospitality and generosity. I stayed, mostly, in homes with families and they were amazing. Although I am a six foot, white, heterosexual male, and that sure did help... embarrassingly so. The prejudice against so many minorities was palpable. And I got the distinct impression travelling from NY to LA that human life doesn't mean as much in the US as it does here or in Europe for that matter.

I guess my point is the US is a paradox. A place of extremes. I met many socially and politically aware folks there but also many angry and downright dangerous folks. The Vietnam war protests were huge in the late sixties and were bold and courageous, but the response from authorities was hysterical and the shooting of protesting uni students reminds us of the other extreme in the US. As do their archaic and obscene gun laws.

The Orangutan knew how to manipulate enough of them to get into power and will be using the same tricks in his attempt to stay in power.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1796 –
The pleasantness or otherwise of US folks at the micro / individual level is not really the point, nor the opinions of the ever dwindling and dubiously appointed liberal class. Taking a big picture / broader view, consider this random collection of fun facts, bearing in mind this is currently the wealthiest country on earth :

- Trump should have been impeached on the first day he took office, via the Emoluments Clause. He wasn't. Breakdown
               of the rule of law, or selective appliaction of the law ? You decide.
- the gap between rich and poor has never been higher in the US than now
- they have the most expensive healthcare in the developed world, with the worst health outcomes
- real wages have stagnated or declined over the last 30-35 years
- facts such as unemployment rates are presented in a way that conceals the real numbers. E.g,
                   if you work 1 hour/week, you're considered employed.
                   if you work 28 hrs/week at Walmart, it puts you below the poverty line
                   if you stop looking for work after 4 weeks of searching, you are automatically erased from the
                       unemployment numbers
                   unemployment numbers don't count students, don't count prisoners, don't count retired people who have
                   gone back to doing temp work to make ends meet etc.
- the US has the highest number of guns in civilian ownership in the world, both per capita and in total
- among the highest suicide rate in the developed world
- they have reached the highest level of recorded debt in history
-they have the highest number of prisoners of any country, both per capita and in total. Half of US prison population
               never harmed another person. 94% never get a jury trial. They have 25% of the world’s prison population, yet
               5% of the world’s population - mostly people of colour.
- there is a clear push to roll back civil liberties, following a very hard right, fundamentalist Christian agenda, as exemplified by the appointment of Brett Kavanaugh - one of his main orders of business is to overturn the landmark Roe v Wade case from 1973.

Consider yourselves warned.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1797 –
I see the problem as one of anonymity.

Trump's the front man for a bigger more vicious system, Trump's blatant and very public about his attitudes, they are the equal of if not worse than Trump but they are faceless!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1798 –
You salute the rank not the man, you dont have to like Trump to vote for him......we have friends in Oklahoma and they dont like Trump as a man but still vote for him based on the alternatives.
The other problem is Trump lovers are guaranteed to vote....the rest are a lottery to even bother making the effort on polling day.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1799 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
You salute the rank not the man, you dont have to like Trump to vote for him......we have friends in Oklahoma and they dont like Trump as a man but still vote for him based on the alternatives.
The other problem is Trump lovers are guaranteed to vote....the rest are a lottery to even bother making the effort on polling day.
Unfortunately that is just highlighting the broken US system, the vote is apathetic and rewards incompetence!

As I said the other day I'll reconfirm, my comments about how bad Trump is do not reflect the relative quality of the opposition.

They need a civil war, or they will be driven to global war by the ruling class and that war might not be winnable!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"