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Topic: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide (Read 52692 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #150 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
Just watched the game again. I reckon there were only 3 blokes who didn't hold up their end of the bargain - Casboult, Cuningham and Sumner. Cuningham's ability to go missing/vanish is so frustrating, especially as when he asserts/inserts himself into the game/contest he's a ripper... what a tease. He may yet be Lucas MK III unless he can find consistency  ;) ;D

We are really beginning to see a team discipline/ethic developing very strongly (which was betrayed a couple of weeks ago but we bounced back impressively... all is forgiven  ;D :D) So, stage one is just about locked into place - powerful and effective defensive culture. Next, let's kick some goals. Before the season is out I would really like to see us put together a 4 quarter performance that sees us belt the shizen out of our opponents and win by 60+

Can't agree with the criticisms of ZF, he's a fkn ripper who gets from contest to contest like a ferret with its @rse on fire. His defensive pressure is elite and forces many opponents into error. Collecting the aggot and running from the contest / backing himself will come. Fulfilling his role beautifully.

Come on H, put in a good one this weekend and force yourself into the seniors.

Most other thought Casboult went ok after doughnuts in the first qtr. Took 7 strong marks in the last 3 qtrs and kick a couple of goals. Look forward to McKay making his debut as we need a 2nd tall forward.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #151 –
I haven't criticised Zac F., I just don't think he's ready (physically and mentally) to compete with the big boys....
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #152 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
sbf, those articles I read discussing offense/defense made the point that defense is actually easier, and requires less thought and creativity than offense, so you may have a point.

We started the season going for attack. It was a complete disaster. Bolton very quickly realised we weren't up to it so wound it all back after getting hammered in the preseason games and rnd 1.

We were handballing at all costs and playing on from even the most difficult stations.

I really like Richmond's tactic of slicing little 25m passes into the corridor I  the forward line. If all your team mates know you're going to do it you become predictable to your team mates which we don't have moving the ball forward right now.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #153 –
Quote from: jeza – on
We started the season going for attack. It was a complete disaster. Bolton very quickly realised we weren't up to it so wound it all back after getting hammered in the preseason games and rnd 1.

We were handballing at all costs and playing on from even the most difficult stations.

I really like Richmond's tactic of slicing little 25m passes into the corridor I  the forward line. If all your team mates know you're going to do it you become predictable to your team mates which we don't have moving the ball forward right now.

I can only assume that Bolton either doesn't trust this style of play or can't coach it successfully. A few seasons back we were playing quite fluid,  attacking footy, so it can be done.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #154 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I can only assume that Bolton either doesn't trust this style of play or can't coach it successfully. A few seasons back we were playing quite fluid,  attacking footy, so it can be done.

We are a completely different outfit today, there is one less interchange on the bench an interchange cap of what 90 rotations? We don't have the smalls of the calibre of Yarran, Eddie and Garlett when they pulled their finger out in terms of speed and goal sense, Chris Judd and Andrew Carrazzo have retired, Jarrrad Waite is playing elsewhere but may as well retire, and we have half of our side coming off their first pre season unlike back then when we had maximum two or 3, to go with Marc Murphy in his then career best form, where now he is no where near as effective even when he is back to his best footy.

Sure we have some talented young kids, but 6 years later is a long time to lament what we used to be.  Collingwood won the premiership that year coached by Malthouse as an indicator of just how much things have changed.

Its time to leave what we used to be able to do in history where it belongs, and appreciate that the game has changed, and we haven't played this way with any real success since 2011 for a very good reason.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #155 –
Thry, the point I was making is that this is less about cattle and more about the mindset of the coaching staff. I am of course quite aware of player movements in the intervening years. Of course the cattle at your disposal must count for something, but not as much as people think in my opinion.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #156 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Thry, the point I was making is that this is less about cattle and more about the mindset of the coaching staff. I am of course quite aware of player movements in the intervening years. Of course the cattle at your disposal must count for something, but not as much as people think in my opinion.

And the point I am making is that the game is a very different beast than what it used to be.

Like it or lump it, teams reacted to us playing with that forward press, and any attempt by us to even attempt to execute it today results in score from turnover quicker than you can say Rasberry Pie.

They did a couple of things.

1.  The Bombers stopped us at the coal face.  We relied on getting first use of the footy.  Their method of stopping that (besides injecting bigger bodies...  ;D) was to put the bigger bodies at the stoppage resulting in repeat stoppages, and the inability of our team to get the ball inside forward fifty quickly.  They knew they only had to stop a few mids, and the rest were incapable of doing enough damage (Murphy and Judd).

2.  Teams started setting up for the quick ball into forward 50.  The current en vogue "score from turnover" is a result of that, where teams would have the ability to rebound as quickly as we put it in there and much of that is the new team defense, defensive zone that Hawthorn have made popular, and we are executing well enough.  Remember we were deemed to be "downhill skiers"??  This is a result of us executing a forward press by flooding forward a bit.  This leaves our defense playing one on one, and we were hardly full of Silvagni types back then.

3.  We were often beaten in one on ones by other teams who matched our ability to get the game going on their terms because the aforementioned forward press, flood forward, or whatever you want to call it, left us exposed.  We often had players attacking off half back together to get numbers in there quickly, who were not as good as Simpson and Docherty are at getting back to perform defensive duties.

ultimately, lamenting times past, is a symptom of not appreciating that the landscape is forever changing.  There is as much chance that this game style would be more succesful today because it is different as it would be less succesful, but the key isnt to remember how good we were or it was, but the key is to apply that methodology in context of today and appreciate that perhaps we would be in exactly the same spot even if we did play like that.  Realistically we need to be better at applying horses for courses, and playing different ways in different contexts which is what I am hoping Bolton is getting us to do.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #157 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I can only assume that Bolton either doesn't trust this style of play or can't coach it successfully. A few seasons back we were playing quite fluid,  attacking footy, so it can be done.

I reckon it's pretty clear that Bolton has a long term plan in place.  He is coaching the team to its strengths and attempting to cover the weaknesses.

The Box Hill Hawks were a high scoring team under Bolton's watch and I think that suggesting that he doesn't trust or can't coach attacking footy is seriously underestimating his coaching ability.

We were playing fluid, attacking footy a few seasons ago when we had Betts, Waite, Garlett, Yarran, Judd, Scotland, Carrazzo ... and we were getting pantsed quite regularly too.  Of course, footy has changed since then and dour, close games seem to be more common now.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #158 –
Thry, you make some fair points, but that game style is now used by GWS and Adelaide, so I doubt it's past its use by date.

I also hope that Bolts has a number of different styles in the works, because we won't go anywhere of note playing solely in this way. My fear is that we will become a Paul Roos / Ross Lyon type team, and I don't want that.

Being supportive of our most successful era since 2001 is not completely devoid of logic.

DJC, I don't follow the VFL too much apart from the NB's, so I wasn't aware of that. But that sounds good to me.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #159 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I can only assume that Bolton either doesn't trust this style of play or can't coach it successfully. A few seasons back we were playing quite fluid,  attacking footy, so it can be done.

It's the exact same way Roos started at Melbourne. By the 3rd year they became more attacking once their defence was set.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #160 –
Quote from: laj – on
It's the exact same way Roos started at Melbourne. By the 3rd year they became more attacking once their defence was set.

I hope Bolton aims higher than being a Roos clone.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #161 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
For those so interested, try doing a google search for whether offense or defense wins you games. I did precisely that, and whilst I found nothing related to AFL, I found a few for other sports, and there does not appear to be any statistics to back up the theory that defense wins you games. The fact is (surprise) that both are needed and teams that are considered offensive are equally successful as those considered defensive.

About a month ago there was a bloke interviewed on triple m. I forget his name unfortunately, but he just finished writing a book on that very subject - "What makes teams great?"

He went through 100+ years of history across multiple sports from all over the globe. Usually teams who had sustained success in some form.
I forget how many different examples he used, but he had the 4-peat pies from the 30's as the only AFL team.

Anywho, his research concluded that....
- it was not about the team who had the best offense.
- it was not about the team who had the best defense.
- it was not about the team who had the best player.
However, it was all about the team who had the best leaders.

All throughout history, the teams that had the best leaders at the club, were able to rise up against better attack/defense/individuals to be the best.

IMO, focusing on defense first is partly a psychological ploy employed by the coaches that gets everyone on the same page. Not everyone on a team can attack, but everyone on a team can defend. It's a pack mentality, 'one-in all-in', type stuff. Play for eachother, give effort.

A leader brings people together...and that is an example of it.

So 'defense first' doesn't mean defense is more important than attack, but its a stepping stone to success IMO.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #162 –
Is the book called "The Captain Class" by Sam Walker ?

At any rate, thanks for that informative post. I agree with what you say. Some common ground once in a striped moon.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #163 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Is the book called "The Captain Class" by Sam Walker ?

At any rate, thanks for that informative post. I agree with what you say. Some common ground once in a striped moon.

Not sure TBH.

Has that one just come out in the past couple months? Could be the one.

I heard it at like 630am on the way to work one frosty morning, i was half asleep at the time.  :-[

EDIT: Just looked that up and yeah, thats the one.
https://penguin.com.au/books/the-captain-class-9780670078493
Quote
When I started out, I never expected to reach one emphatic conclusion. I assumed the fingerprints of these elite units would have many of the same whorls and ridges yet no perfect matches. In the end, I was shocked to discover that the world’s most extraordinary sports teams didn’t have many propulsive traits in common, they had exactly one. And it was something I hadn’t anticipated.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #164 –
Quote from: flyboy77 – on
I finished watching the replay last night too.

I thought Murphy was very ordinary, compared to when he's 'on'. And don't quote me his stats.

Fisher? Tries hard granted, just not there yet imo.....just reckon he's better off gaining experience and possessions in the 2s...

Pretty fair observation. I thought Murph looked hesitant and often 2nd guessing himself. Is not playing with confidence or 'edginess'/boldness.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17