Skip to main content
Topic: GM to dump Holden (Read 3010 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: GM to dump Holden

Reply #15
True, but it still works.  people swear by German and Japanese engineering.

I recently went from my Jeep Wrangler to a 79 Series Landcruiser.  The difference in build quality is stark.  However, Toyota has got away with building a 4WD with different front and rear track and that’s critical if the vehicle is used off the bitumen.  Dominating the market has allowed Toyota to save money and pass the cost of addressing their issue on to the consumer.

I have owned a Ford, but it was actually a Nissan rebadged under the Button plan.  I have never owned a Holden but I had a long term loan of my brother’s circa 1969 Holden Premier.  It had a 253 cu in V8 and a three speed column shift.  It was long in the tooth then but still went like sh1t out of a shanghai ????
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be . . .

Re: GM to dump Holden

Reply #16
True, but it still works.  people swear by German and Japanese engineering.

Can they help it, isn't it just a pareidolia or similar cognitive bias effective?

Once they have heard or read the spin they develop a cognitive bias in the absence of contradictory evidence, it's the same mechanism that allows fake news and propaganda to flourish. Whether you read, hear or see such advice you are cognitively prime to believe it. The visual version of this is pareidolia when you cannot unsee some pattern once someone has pointed it out to you. There are audible and written words equivalents of this phenomenon.

Media organisations like newspapers and programs like ACA and 60 Minutes rely on priming your cognition to agree with them, but they are irresponsible and cannot undo what they did. Which is why for example despite being proven to have cheated the system and media heavily reporting that people keep buying VW cars like Golf's, ignoring any number of reports showing those cars are not the quality people believe and that VW cheated the system. Joe Average cannot verify the performance figures, he relies on professional media to do this, but the internet is full of bloggers and now "professional influencers" who profit from product placement and promotion. The same reason people continue to believe climate change is a hoax, vaccines are dangerous and the new wave of believers that the world is flat.

It's why I'm so strong on defending our club in the media, if you let people keep bashing us without restraint being submissive and timid becomes part of the club's culture. Insidiously it's creeps into the playing and coaching group psyche.

Like the way our AFLW keeps losing.
The Force Awakens!

Re: GM to dump Holden

Reply #17
I have owned a wide range of vehicle brands over the journey, local, Japanese and European,  but from experience and observation, the Toyota products have impressed me most in terms of reliability and build quality. However some of these vehicles have had their issues.

The only Holdens I've owned were Commodores, standard fare which I found were basically OK but had their quality issues such as poor fittings and fixtures. On one I recall in particular was the side of the driver's seat, where it was rubbed  during getting in/out. It wore through in a couple of years. That was quite annoying as it was just  out of warranty and the replacement cover was hard to get, expensive and needed to be fitted by a motor trimmer at my expense

The Lexus, OK more expensive, was light years ahead. This is now getting on a bit but still a good car (fingers crossed!).

Re: GM to dump Holden

Reply #18
Due to some equine interests we now have a Toyota and it's by far the best off-road / heavy towing vehicle we've owned. Over the years in the same category we've had Ford and Holden and limited exposure to Chevrolet, RAM, Jeep and Landrover, all were relative rubbish.

One thing I have learned, rated towing capacity is a pretty meaningless measure for anybody except the road authorities to use as a guideline for handing out fines!
The Force Awakens!

Re: GM to dump Holden

Reply #19
Due to some equine interests we now have a Toyota and it's by far the best off-road / heavy towing vehicle we've owned. Over the years in the same category we've had Ford and Holden and limited exposure to Chevrolet, RAM, Jeep and Landrover, all were relative rubbish.

One thing I have learned, rated towing capacity is a pretty meaningless measure for anybody except the road authorities to use as a guideline for handing out fines!

Gross Vehicle Mass and Gross Combined Mass are the most meaningful measures.  Many vehicles can only legally achieve their towing capacity with absolutely nothing in the vehicle - including the driver  :)
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be . . .

Re: GM to dump Holden

Reply #20
Gross Vehicle Mass and Gross Combined Mass are the most meaningful measures.  Many vehicles can only legally achieve their towing capacity with absolutely nothing in the vehicle - including the driver  :)

Towing can be a trap for the unwary in other ways too DJC. For instance, my old Troopy with the 1HZ motor and 5 speed gearbox was not an ideal towing truck due to the design and construction of it's gearbox. If they are to be used for towing then 5th gear(overdrive) should NOT be used, and a gearbox upgrade would be a wise move - or even avoid this model altogether if you want to tow a larger trailer. This gear, i.e. 5th,  is strictly a highway cruising gear in this model. Later versions (turbo) were OK. Anyway, I digress.

Re: GM to dump Holden

Reply #21
I found many failings with different vehicles.

But the main problem I have found as the driver is vehicle stability under extreme breaking, in strong cross winds and on steep descents. Some of the vehicles listing equal or greater towing capacity, than our current Toyota, were relative rubbish under challenging conditions. I can't relate how different it is to have a vehicle you can be confident in when towing 2 or 3 tonnes of float, driving goes from being a stressful fatigue filled chore to an enjoyment.
The Force Awakens!

Re: GM to dump Holden

Reply #22
Due to some equine interests we now have a Toyota and it's by far the best off-road / heavy towing vehicle we've owned. Over the years in the same category we've had Ford and Holden and limited exposure to Chevrolet, RAM, Jeep and Landrover, all were relative rubbish.

One thing I have learned, rated towing capacity is a pretty meaningless measure for anybody except the road authorities to use as a guideline for handing out fines!

Fiat/Chrysler/Jeep is about the worst car entity selling in Aus.......no service backup, crap engineering and if you look at the new Wrangler its not fit to drive on the road, I dont know how they can
sell them....

Re: GM to dump Holden

Reply #23
Fiat/Chrysler/Jeep is about the worst car entity selling in Aus.......no service backup, crap engineering and if you look at the new Wrangler its not fit to drive on the road, I dont know how they can
sell them....

That’s not what my Jeep buddies say; they’re queuing up to test drive the JL Wrangler  :)  All JLs sold in Australia will have AEB, the absence of which was one of the main reasons for the 1 star NCAP rating and the chassis and integrated roll cage makes them a very safe car if you are involved in a collision.

I didn’t really have any issues with Jeep dealers and FCA, after some poor publicity, is actually engaging with Jeep owners.  However, like many 4WDs, trying to squeeze more power out of small diesels leads to reliability problems, particularly when you’re driving in remote areas.  The JL diesel is 2.2l, my JK had a 2.8l diesel.  Cost cutting is also a major problem with vulnerable wiring looms and suspension and drivetrain components that don’t last as long as they should.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be . . .

Re: GM to dump Holden

Reply #24
I found many failings with different vehicles.

But the main problem I have found as the driver is vehicle stability under extreme breaking, in strong cross winds and on steep descents. Some of the vehicles listing equal or greater towing capacity, than our current Toyota, were relative rubbish under challenging conditions. I can't relate how different it is to have a vehicle you can be confident in when towing 2 or 3 tonnes of float, driving goes from being a stressful fatigue filled chore to an enjoyment.
Been a Toyota Landcruiser man for years. Throw the rest away AFAIC.
2017 - Bigger, Stronger, Faster, Harder, Smarter. #ruthless
2018 - Could be a long year...
2019 - The Empire Strikes Back
2020 - No more BS, no more excuses, it's time.

Re: GM to dump Holden

Reply #25
That’s not what my Jeep buddies say; they’re queuing up to test drive the JL Wrangler  :)  All JLs sold in Australia will have AEB, the absence of which was one of the main reasons for the 1 star NCAP rating and the chassis and integrated roll cage makes them a very safe car if you are involved in a collision.

I didn’t really have any issues with Jeep dealers and FCA, after some poor publicity, is actually engaging with Jeep owners.  However, like many 4WDs, trying to squeeze more power out of small diesels leads to reliability problems, particularly when you’re driving in remote areas.  The JL diesel is 2.2l, my JK had a 2.8l diesel.  Cost cutting is also a major problem with vulnerable wiring looms and suspension and drivetrain components that don’t last as long as they should.

New Wrangler Failed Euro Ncap 64kmh crash test into a barrier, driver and front passenger survival marginal....thats disgraceful....N Pillar connection failed with transfascia beam, stairwell structurally failed at 50kmh...
AEB is being used to bump up the Ncap rating.........they didnt even bother with the 32kmh side crash pole test because its such a deathtrap.
Its structural performance in crashing is 50%.......you wouldnt put roadkill in a wrangler....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3lusvRULYQ



Re: GM to dump Holden

Reply #26
New Wrangler Failed Euro Ncap 64kmh crash test into a barrier, driver and front passenger survival marginal....thats disgraceful....N Pillar connection failed with transfascia beam, stairwell structurally failed at 50kmh...
AEB is being used to bump up the Ncap rating.........they didnt even bother with the 32kmh side crash pole test because its such a deathtrap.
Its structural performance in crashing is 50%.......you wouldnt put roadkill in a wrangler....

Of course, the NCAP testing isn’t biased towards European cars ... and I’ve seen the footage. 

I know several Jeepers who have survived major collisions because Jeep hasn’t followed the sheep and made vehicles softer.  I was always concerned about my vehicle’s reliability on outback trips but never about survivability in the event that things went ask up.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be . . .

Re: GM to dump Holden

Reply #27
If you want indestructible for off-road why not just gets some army surplus!

https://www.australianfrontlinemachinery.com.au

1/2 the price and 3x the value!
The Force Awakens!

Re: GM to dump Holden

Reply #28
Can they help it, isn't it just a pareidolia or similar cognitive bias effective?

Once they have heard or read the spin they develop a cognitive bias in the absence of contradictory evidence, it's the same mechanism that allows fake news and propaganda to flourish. Whether you read, hear or see such advice you are cognitively prime to believe it. The visual version of this is pareidolia when you cannot unsee some pattern once someone has pointed it out to you. There are audible and written words equivalents of this phenomenon.

Media organisations like newspapers and programs like ACA and 60 Minutes rely on priming your cognition to agree with them, but they are irresponsible and cannot undo what they did. Which is why for example despite being proven to have cheated the system and media heavily reporting that people keep buying VW cars like Golf's, ignoring any number of reports showing those cars are not the quality people believe and that VW cheated the system. Joe Average cannot verify the performance figures, he relies on professional media to do this, but the internet is full of bloggers and now "professional influencers" who profit from product placement and promotion. The same reason people continue to believe climate change is a hoax, vaccines are dangerous and the new wave of believers that the world is flat.

It's why I'm so strong on defending our club in the media, if you let people keep bashing us without restraint being submissive and timid becomes part of the club's culture. Insidiously it's creeps into the playing and coaching group psyche.

Like the way our AFLW keeps losing.

I generally think that these are arbitrary claims, originating in old world times.

i.e.  Italian Leather.

All of it comes from different animals, in different countries using the same process to create.

Therefore, why is it only Italian leather that is expensive??

The answer is, that most of this stuff is from ROMAN times when manufacturing and products were different in every country.

These days they take the same raw materials, and manufacture something using the same materials, therefore, the only difference becomes the overheads, and quality control measures.

The only real difference can be where the money is invested as part of the developement process.  This is why your 2nd/3rd series of any car is likely to be the one where all the bugs are ironed out and things just work and work well, the last one will be the cheapest one to manufacture with perhaps the most flaws due to using inferior ingredients to achieve the same build and using slight visual upgrades and a few bonus extras, and your 1st one is the most experimental with varying results.


Long story short, apply that last paragraph in bold to any make, model or manufacturer and you will likely walk away with a good vehicle rather than stating the exact same fallousies we are discussing.

That being said, I think Nissan make the best car for a cross between build quality, service, reliability, aesthetics and price point. 
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: GM to dump Holden

Reply #29
That being said, I think Nissan make the best car for a cross between build quality, service, reliability, aesthetics and price point.

Yes, I think the Nissan low end and high end are quite good, I've friends with Juke and GT-R and they are very happy. Funnily a friend has the 370z and they are not so happy with that, they think aspects of it are cheapened to fit into the price range.

Recently the new Mazda 6 has also shown some promise, but only the top end Atenza seems to offer good value for money in things the average driver won't notice like thicker glass, lower profile tyres stiffer suspension coupled with the turbocharged engine. A bunch of cosmetic things like leather and sunroof as well.

I have no idea why 5.0L Mustangs and Chevrolet is selling so well, the Kia Stinger is a far superior performance car.
The Force Awakens!