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Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #90 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
When most of your mids cant hit a target or run at 65% DE, the opposition can back themselves in to get some easy turnovers....we need a simple plan to accommodate our simple skilled players which means you become predictable taking the easy defensive route which means kicking short along the boundaries and getting nowhere...ending in turnovers as your players get cornered.
We dont have enough players who can quickly with precision hit those targets across ground with long kicks and switch play...losing Docherty and Williamson hasnt helped either who are good kicks...

I agree somewhat, but I'd assert the current problem isn't Setterfield, SPS, Fisher, Poulson or any of the other kids. The problem is that our older guys don't really do much better on average and especially when things get tight during the match!

We have a list full of shell shocked individuals, damaged goods! At as any good military commander knows, shell-shock can be contagious! Yet we keep using adversity as a learning tool, it's my biggest concern! Armies did that back in the days of yore, when lives were cheap and The Best of British Military was run by men in luxury tents many miles away! But Carlton has only 45 soldiers, we cannot keep breaking them and expect to win the battle!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #91 –
Hang about.  Most of our mids are under 50 gamers.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #92 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Hang about.  Most of our mids are under 50 gamers.

Like I said, it can be contagious.

Some are damaged from long service, others are youthful but contaminated, you do not need long service to become damaged!

Who is going to break the cycle?

We should take some delight in watching Jones and Weitering, but it can take that long to turn things around, if you can at all! I'm not sure blokes like Simmo, sMurph, Ed, Plowman, Casboult, etc., etc., can turn things around.

Simmo looks tired, and it's only Rnd 3!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #93 –
History shows - the guys who coach through a complete bottom-out rebuild like the one we're undertaking are rarely still there when the results swing back the other way.

McCartney (3 years in the bottom 3) -> Beveridge: Won it 2 years after taking over
Northey -> Lethal: Won it within 2 years of taking over
Shaw (wooden spoon in 1999) -> Malthouse: Took over in 2000 - runner up 2002
Schwab (10th, 9th, 2nd bottom, sacked) -> Clarkson: 3 years after Clarko took over won the flag.
Eade (8th, 10th, 11th, sacked) -> Roos : won the premiership in his 2nd year.


Bomber Thompson would be an exception given their rebuild really started upon his arrival but he only survived by the slimmest of slim margins.

Hardwick: got the premiership in his 7th year so arguably saw through a fair chunk of the rebuild, however, they got in Cotchin / Rance / Reiwoldt / Martin whilst Wallis was still there so I'd argue he arrived post bottom out rebuild.

Maybe clubs just need that circuit breaker to make a clean break from that losing phase. Or maybe the intense pressure of losing cracks the coaches themselves (see Scott Watters). Or maybe the boards eventually loses patience.

Either way it's pretty rare for a coach to survive a full on bottom out rebuild phase like we've undertaken.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #94 –
If he were to be sacked (which I think is a long way off) who is the next logical replacement?

Sam Mitchell?
I'd love to see Ratts back but can't see that happening.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #95 –
Quote from: jeza – on
Either way it's pretty rare for a coach to survive a full on bottom out rebuild phase like we've undertaken.

Before us no club has done to it's list what we are doing, it's unprecedented.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #96 –
Quote from: jeza – on
History shows - the guys who coach through a complete bottom-out rebuild like the one we're undertaking are rarely still there when the results swing back the other way.

McCartney (3 years in the bottom 3) -> Beveridge: Won it 2 years after taking over
Northey -> Lethal: Won it within 2 years of taking over
Shaw (wooden spoon in 1999) -> Malthouse: Took over in 2000 - runner up 2002
Schwab (10th, 9th, 2nd bottom, sacked) -> Clarkson: 3 years after Clarko took over won the flag.
Eade (8th, 10th, 11th, sacked) -> Roos : won the premiership in his 2nd year.


Bomber Thompson would be an exception given their rebuild really started upon his arrival but he only survived by the slimmest of slim margins.

Hardwick: got the premiership in his 7th year so arguably saw through a fair chunk of the rebuild, however, they got in Cotchin / Rance / Reiwoldt / Martin whilst Wallis was still there so I'd argue he arrived post bottom out rebuild.

Maybe clubs just need that circuit breaker to make a clean break from that losing phase. Or maybe the intense pressure of losing cracks the coaches themselves (see Scott Watters). Or maybe the boards eventually loses patience.

Either way it's pretty rare for a coach to survive a full on bottom out rebuild phase like we've undertaken.
Did Clarko rebuild the Dawks? :o
2025... Moir of the same to come

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #97 –
Quote from: BluePhantom – on
Did Clarko rebuild the Dawks? :o

Not really, they already had Buddy, Roughead and Hodge when he took the job.

I think in general that term "rebuild" covers a very wide scope of activities, from "inherit" to "white-ant"! But I think the point stands, there has not been a "rebuild" like our current rebuild, ever!

I suppose the closest analogy in recent times would be the recruiting and list changes during the start up years of the Lions or Swans! To me GWS and GC do not qualify due to the concessions they received, is that fair?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #98 –
Quote from: BluePhantom – on
Did Clarko rebuild the Dawks? :o

Yes but he was only really there for 2 years of bottom out part. They made finals in his second or third year I think and won the premiership in 2008. My post was about coaches who survive a lengthy bottom out rebuild phase vs. those who come in and pick up a club already several years into that rebuild which Clarko definitely did.

Having said that - as much as I hate him - Clarkson is an undeniably brilliant coach and has impacted the modern game more than any other coach. To have taken the Hawks so quickly out of that rebuild phase to premiership is his most brilliant achievement I would have thought.

It hurts so much to write that because I genuinely hate that arrogant little sniping poison dwarf.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #99 –
Quote from: LP – on
Not really, they already had Buddy, Roughead and Hodge when he took the job.

I think in general that term "rebuild" covers a very wide scope of activities, from "inherit" to "white-ant"! But I think the point stands, there has not been a "rebuild" like our current rebuild, ever!

I suppose the closest analogy in recent times would be the recruiting and list changes during the start up years of the Lions or Swans! To me GWS and GC do not qualify due to the concessions they received, is that fair?

GWS would be the best analogy to our list. They had a smattering of older guys (equivalent to Murphy/Kreuzer/Simmo/Thomas) on the books but around them was a team of basically first round draft picks (if you count their 17y.o. concessions as first rounders).

Imagine GWS without the go-home factor. That is Carlton's current list.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #100 –
Quote from: jeza – on
GWS would be the best analogy to our list. They had a smattering of older guys (equivalent to Murphy/Kreuzer/Simmo/Thomas) on the books but around them was a team of basically first round draft picks (if you count their 17y.o. concessions as first rounders).

Imagine GWS without the go-home factor. That is Carlton's current list.

I think our experienced heads aren't really good enough to be compared to the GWS leaders.  Think, Phil Davis, Shane Mumford, Callan Ward.


Where we are struggling is that we have a few key experienced players, that we cannot get on the park.  I.e.  Kreuzer and Docherty would have been the difference between winning and losing on Saturday, arguably they would have been the difference vs Port, and who knows how different the Richmond result could have been with them playing.

We are just putting all our eggs in the basket of broken players, and are having to wear losses until the wheel turns.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #101 –
Quote from: jeza – on
GWS would be the best analogy to our list. They had a smattering of older guys (equivalent to Murphy/Kreuzer/Simmo/Thomas) on the books but around them was a team of basically first round draft picks (if you count their 17y.o. concessions as first rounders).

Imagine GWS without the go-home factor. That is Carlton's current list.

The way GWS was built was not the same as our scorched earth rebuild

GWS built a palace full of riches, some new and some stolen, and are fighting like hell to defend it from the thieves for long enough until they come good.

Carlton burned down it's remaining hovel and is frantically trying to build a new palace using a mixture of remnants and new materials. In some respects we can probably be accused of throwing the baby out with the bathwater!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #102 –
Quote from: LP – on
The way GWS was built was not the same as our scorched earth rebuild

GWS built a palace full of riches, some new and some stolen, and are fighting like hell to defend it from the thieves for long enough until they come good.

Carlton burned down it's remaining hovel and is frantically trying to build a new palace using a mixture of remnants and new materials. In some respects we can probably be accused of throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

GWS had the highest number of former first round draft picks on their list ever - but they were all 18-20. Then a smattering of older hands in the 28+ bracket.

Carlton now has the most former first round draft picks on any list ever - excluding that GWS list.

There is no exact like for like but GWS was the most similar to where we're at now I reckon. Their problem has been keeping the list together with the go home factor and a ridiculous injury plague. If it weren't for that I think they'd have won a premiership - probably 2 - by now.

Add the best of Adams, Treloar, Shiel, Scully, Boyd, Bruce, Marchbank, etc. back into that team and they'd be absolutely dominant.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #103 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Hang about.  Most of our mids are under 50 gamers.

You are either a good kick or not when you are a kid and that doesnt change....Pendlebury was a good kick from day 1, Williamson is a good kick...age, games has nothing to do with it...
Dow was a average kick at TAC level and nothing has changed...on the run he is 50/50 to hit a target, Walsh kicking short is ok but his balldrop means when he kicks in a hurry he can mistime them.
Weitering is a good kick who lost his mojo but has regained it and his kicking is back ok again..
Chris Judd wasnt an accomplished user by foot either and got worse as he got older, thats all ok if you have enough good kicking players in the team to compensate...at the moment SPS is probably our most reliable kick from our midfield group. Setterfield is another who needs to improve his kicking....Murphy can be unreliable as can Simpson. Cripps also uneliable.....
Obrien is meant to be a good kick but doesnt get enough ball to impact.
Fisher is normally good but of late has been under more pressure...Newman looks a good kick but went at 50% vs the Swans...

You will not kick enough goals if the majority of your major ballwinners cant hit targets in the big moments of the game.....

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #104 –
Quote from: jeza – on
GWS had the highest number of former first round draft picks on their list ever - but they were all 18-20. Then a smattering of older hands in the 28+ bracket.

Carlton now has the most former first round draft picks on any list ever - excluding that GWS list.

There is no exact like for like but GWS was the most similar to where we're at now I reckon. Their problem has been keeping the list together with the go home factor and a ridiculous injury plague. If it weren't for that I think they'd have won a premiership - probably 2 - by now.

Add the best of Adams, Treloar, Shiel, Scully, Boyd, Bruce, Marchbank, etc. back into that team and they'd be absolutely dominant.

GWS would have won a flag with Clarkson coaching.......Clarko would have toughened them up and given them a more killer instinct, they dont have enough mongrel in the team.
Mumford back makes them so much better.