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Re: Australian Open 2020

Reply #45 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Quote from: Thryleon – on
The players have the right to expect that the fans are quiet.  Djokovic has never felt the love from the Australian supporters and frankly my experience growing up says it's a deep seeded racial thing to people who hail from the Balkan area.
      Spot on.
I see, it's all about race! :o

Except it's been asserted fans screaming during the serve helps the server more than the receiver, it's analogous to the cheating grunters who scream to mask the sound of the serve. A few years back after the controversial revelations from some Florida based players and coaches, the ATP even conducted a study which apparently showed when hearing is removed a top end players ability to to assess the speed and direction of the serve is significantly degraded. It's one of the main reasons the grunting exists, and not at all to do with breathing or peak energy, that's just a lie the grunting cheats propagate.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Australian Open 2020

Reply #46 –
^^

Do not dismiss my experience based on real world examples of "f**k off back to where you came from" with some hyperbole.

I don't care about grunting.  The players are not supposed to do things like that either, and there are on court violations available.  They stopped dishing them out, because Serena and Venus Williams are the worst proponents of this and then ATP didnt want to appear hypocritical.

Trust me, grow up with a surname ending in opoulos, and you will experience first hand just how racist Australia can be.  We are just greatful the hatred is now being aimed at the Asians for a change but every so often you get a reminder that you arent fully accepted you are just the best of the "bad bunch".



"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Australian Open 2020

Reply #47 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Do not dismiss my experience based on real world examples of "f**k off back to where you came from" with some hyperbole.
Firstly, the is no hyperbole in what I wrote, I've exaggerated nothing just described it as it is!

If you want a critical assessment of the racism references in your earlier statements. Firstly, I never discussed race, but I'd say you've used inclusive language and grossly generalised your private and personal experiences of racism and applied them to the wider community.

You know as well as any the entourages are not monocultural, I never stated that they were monocultural, which is specifically why I used the term entourage. In fact the supporter base is mutlicultural, it's the media that narrowly focuses on and reports some specific subset usually because a small segment have a specific flag or uniform that makes a great picture!

The assertion that Djoko isn't supported here because of a race thing is rubbish, as rubbish as Williams claiming her lack of support is due to skin color and not her abhorent behavior.

Djoko's probably not supported here for multiple reasons, highly likely because culturally Australia barracks for the underdog, nothing more nothing less, Djoko hardly fits the bill! Why isn't he liked like Federer, I expect the answer truly lies in their different behaviors on court rather than where they were born or who their parents were!

Undoubtedly there is a small percentage of the supporter base who are racist, just like football, but that doesn't excuse the use of inclusive language. You even must accept that in the case of those hating Balkans heritage players it may well be a percentage are culturally indoctrinated EU expatriates! Hardly a case for use of globally inclusive language!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Australian Open 2020

Reply #48 –
Don't wish to insert myself into this "to and fro" beyond this comment, but to suggest "Australia is racist" Thry (paraphrasing your words) is certainly not my life experience.

You can't homogenize nationalities any more than you can neighbours.

Siding with LP on this one, especially the pathetic attempts to pushing the rules.  THAT'S what we despise.  It's transparent and playing the victim.

Re: Australian Open 2020

Reply #49 –
Capcom, side with whomever you like.  The crowd was against Djokovic, before the match was in full swing, and were clearly not on his side and this was before any perceived rule bending which dismisses your entire argument.

It also says a bit about you that you have to paraphrase my point with "Australia is racist".

Poor form.

That's a straw mans fallacy if I have ever seen one.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Australian Open 2020

Reply #50 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Capcom, side with whomever you like.  The crowd was against Djokovic, before the match was in full swing, and were clearly not on his side and this was before any perceived rule bending which dismisses your entire argument.
The crowd does have a memory doesn't it, surely your not claiming history means nothing?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Australian Open 2020

Reply #51 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Capcom, side with whomever you like.  The crowd was against Djokovic, before the match was in full swing, and were clearly not on his side and this was before any perceived rule bending which dismisses your entire argument.

It also says a bit about you that you have to paraphrase my point with "Australia is racist".

Poor form.

That's a straw mans fallacy if I have ever seen one.

So you didn't imply the racism quote?  You said it, I didn't.  You used present tense

just how racist Australia can be

Re: Australian Open 2020

Reply #52 –
^^
Look up a straw mans fallacy:

Quote
You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.

By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Australian Open 2020

Reply #53 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Trust me, grow up with a surname ending in opoulos, and you will experience first hand just how racist Australia can be.  We are just greatful the hatred is now being aimed at the Asians for a change but every so often you get a reminder that you arent fully accepted you are just the best of the "bad bunch".
Thry you wrote the above, quoted for future reference. Capcom quoted you without paraphrasing, alteration or amplification, how can Capcom be the one making a Straw Man argument!

Neither Capcom or anyone else introduce prejudice towards Balkans as an pseudo defense for Djoko in this debate, and if it's a deep seated racism that you gratefully no longer experience how can it be so specific to Australian's and how can it be persistent and current?

The bulk of Australian's have no history or experience of conflict or division from within Balkan states like those who are expatriate Balkans do!

Further, what specific relation do Australian's have in general to the disruptive entourage that travels with the player's?

Subjectively, it seems convenient to make the claims of previous and persistent racism as some sort of weird defense for Djoko's history of poor sportsmanship and bad on court behavior. But the two are not connected, and it's not going to fly with most observers, the bulk of who won't engage in the debate because of the propensity for Djoko's apologists to label critics as racist!

The accusation of racism is neither a widely valid point or an generally accurate observation, it's just become a silencing tactic used in many debates and as a tactic it's effectiveness is wearing out!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Australian Open 2020

Reply #54 –
^^

I stated grow up with the surname opoulos and you will find out how racist Australia can be.

Not that Australia is racist.

Quote from: capcom – on
Don't wish to insert myself into this "to and fro" beyond this comment, but to suggest "Australia is racist" Thry (paraphrasing your words) is certainly not my life experience.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Australian Open 2020

Reply #55 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
^^

I stated grow up with the surname opoulos and you will find out how racist Australia can be.

Not that Australia is racist.



I think that your statement would be more acceptable if was along the lines, "Some (or many) Australians are racist."  To state that "Australia is racist" or "Australians are racist" is falling into the same basket as those racists who believe that they can categorise folk on the basis of race or ethnicity.

I fully accept how difficult it must have been as a migrant or child of a migrant in the mid 20th century.  I was from one of three protestant families in our street and the overt and covert bigotry from the catholic majority was relentless.  Times have changed and no-one gives a fat rat's clacker about one's religion now ... unless you happen to be Muslim.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Australian Open 2020

Reply #56 –
Australians elected Pauline Hanson to office. Twice. It's hard to argue we're not a racist country (although I acknowledge that the majority of Australians are not racist, but there are many among us who are)

Re: Australian Open 2020

Reply #57 –
There are people, all around the world, who are predjudiced against others for various reasons including race, ethnicity, religion.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Australian Open 2020

Reply #58 –
Quote from: Jack Burton – on
Australians elected Pauline Hanson to office. Twice. It's hard to argue we're not a racist country (although I acknowledge that the majority of Australians are not racist, but there are many among us who are)

In fact, "Australians" didn't elect Pauline Hanson.  Taking the 2016 election as an example, 4.3% of voters voted for One Nation and it is our voting system that enabled Hanson and others to secure Senate seats - no One Nation candidate has ever been elected to the House of Representatives.

It would be more accurate to state that it is reasonable to assume that many of the 4.3% of voters who voted for One Nation are racist.  Of course, that doesn't mean that some of those voters who voted for other parties aren't racist too.  However, that doesn't mean that Australia is a racist country even if many of our citizens struggle to come to terms that our nation is founded on attempted genocide. 

I would say that Australians generally are no more racist than folk from most other countries, and probably less racist than many.

Xenophobia seems to be part of the human condition and it's great that many Australians have embraced multiculturalism and and are more willing to accept diversity.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Australian Open 2020

Reply #59 –
As a generalisation (which is all we can deal in given the nature of the beast), if you want explicit racism, look no further than the vast majority of the Asian nations.
Finals, then 4 in a row!