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Topic: CV and mad panic behaviour (Read 886209 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2415 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Clearly wrote she is to receive it.
As will ten of thousands of other health and allied health industry workers starting from last week, because now it is available when before it wasn't. ;)
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2416 –
Quote from: LP – on
You can't ignore the timeline @ElwoodBlues1.

How could the health workers at MBB's mother's work get AstraZeneca before we actually had any in the country? The first health workers only started getting AstraZeneca last week, the assertion the doctors only get Pfizer is rubbish!

MBB was posing the very same question a couple of weeks back, days before AstraZeneca even arrived in the country. The assertion/conspiracy is all built on social media rumours that are baseless. The irony being if you want to be worried about a new technology, it's the mRNA vaccines you should be more worried about! ;)

I notice you quote a lot of business / corporate investment related COVID-19 facts, I gather this comes from some corporate rag, for example the blood plasma business stalled comments you made above. What is the relevance of this downturn in altering vaccine production decisions? Aren't all those plasma business in the same boat because there are less blood donations, so there is no inherent bias across the board!

My main concern isn't funding CSL, it's why we are preferentially funding CSL for expanding old technologies, as I've mentioned before if mRNA proves safe and efficacious that older adenovirus technology could quickly become redundant. My associate asked this question to a top CSL executive at a recent sporting event, his response was they Feds will fund a second round of upgrades to include the new mRNA technologies anyway, upgrading capacity of the existing technologies was a faster to market situation! However, long term if the adenovirus route offers vaccines in a pill or nasal spray the old technology could win out, so I can understand why they aren't throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Relevance is CSL need the business and Scotty needs a cheap vaccine to give to the plebs. The CSL share price has dropped about $50 and you got to keep the shareholders happy...
CSL also had a failed union with the Uni of Queensland to create their own vaccine and were/are very keen to stay in vaccine market.
Of course the locally produced variety hasn't been approved by the TGA yet..

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2417 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Relevance is CSL need the business and Scotty needs a cheap vaccine to give to the plebs. The CSL share price has dropped about $50 and you got to keep the shareholders happy...
CSL also had a failed union with the Uni of Queensland to create their own vaccine and were/are very keen to stay in vaccine market.
Of course the locally produced variety hasn't been approved by the TGA yet..
@ElwoodBlues1 Who else produces mass vaccines locally?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2418 –
Quote from: LP – on
No because we have global stats that expose the likely truth that can't be dismissed as opinion.

The actions so far of those nations fly in the face of the evidence, it is not supported by evidence.

I can't believe you accept such trivial evidence the vaccines aren't safe, while denying the weight of such overwhelming evidence the vaccines are safe. Hypocrisy?
See that is what you are missing in this debate, with you its all black and white. It's not.

These vaccines are are all safe, nobody should stop them.
Or
You are anti vaccine who want them stopped.

How about, double checking a few things. Look at why large countries around the world are getting cold feet and reevaluating before we walk right off the cliff.

I'm just suggesting a cautious response. I'm suggesting there are things we might not know about side effects.... specifically long term that we cannot possibly know right now.
I'm suggesting that just because a government says it safe, doesn't mean it can't be safer.

These issues might have nothing to do with the vaccine specifically, maybe its the syringes, swabs or whatever else. Maybe it's nothing.
But..... there is no harm in checking, double checking and triple checking before we proceed.... and then checking one more time to be sure.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2419 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
See that is what you are missing in this debate, with you its all black and white. It's not.

These vaccines are are all safe, nobody should stop them.
Or
You are anti vaccine who want them stopped.
I've already stated caution and scepticism are a critical part of the process when based on valid scientific evidence. I've mentioned that multiple times.

So the root assumption of your post is wrong.

@kruddler  Why do you think the checking, double checking and triple checking haven't already been if not being done at the moment?

We then get back to Sir Karl Popper's question, "What evidence do you need to prove to yourself a vaccine is safe?" You don't have to answer that, but you should think about it as should any other interested readers!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2420 –
The decision to suspend the vaccines in those European countries is more political than scientific. That is my contention, and I believe it's also LP's contention.

Caution and risk/reward are not black and white. What may seem overly and unnecessarily cautious to some is seen by others as reasonable precaution.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2421 –
Quote from: LP – on
I've already stated caution and scepticism are a critical part of the process when based on valid scientific evidence. I've mentioned that multiple times.

So the root assumption of your post is wrong.

@kruddler  Why do you think the checking, double checking and triple checking haven't already been if not being done at the moment?
If my root assumption is wrong, you wouldn't be arguing against me.

Never said they are not being done. Just saying in the scheme of things, if we delay the rollout (for those who want too) then nobody gets hurt. The virus is basically dead in the country currently. We are afforded somewhat of a luxury in dealing with this in terms of time compared to other countries......lets use some of it.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2422 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Never said they are not being done. Just saying in the scheme of things, if we delay the rollout (for those who want too) then nobody gets hurt. The virus is basically dead in the country currently. We are afforded somewhat of a luxury in dealing with this in terms of time compared to other countries......lets use some of it.
You can't pose the question and deny making the inference, it's inherent in the question. Whether that is specifically targeted at me to answer as part of this debate, or a rhetorical question posed for the benefit of other readers is irrelevant. Really, posing the checking, double checking and triple checking question just comes across as tricky and evasive, you imply it is not already happening as part of the act of making the statement, that takes us back to Sir Karl Popper.

The COVID-19 virus is dead in the country, except in sewerage facilities pretty much everywhere rural or urban!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2424 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
What question are you referring too exactly?
 See above, I'm on my phone so I usually post a bit before it gets too long to retype if I'm interrupted. 
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2425 –
I'd be curious to know where the tipping point lies. Is there a magic number at which point suspending the AZ vaccine is justifiable ? If there was one death per country after taking the vaccine, would that justify suspension ? What about 3 blood clot incidents per country ? Would that justify suspension ? Unless the only level of risk you are prepared to tolerate is zero, there must be a tipping point that starts to spook people, and I'm wondering why the numbers currently in circulation would cause that, because statistically they seem very small.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2426 –
Quote from: LP – on
You can't pose the question and deny making the inference, it's inherent in the question. Whether that is specifically targeted at me to answer as part of this debate, or a rhetorical question posed for the benefit of other readers is irrelevant. Really, posing the checking, double checking and triple checking question just comes across as tricky and evasive, you imply it is not already happening as part of the act of making the statement, that takes us back to Sir Karl Popper.

The COVID-19 virus is dead in the country, except in sewerage facilities pretty much everywhere rural or urban!
I don't imply that it is not already happening, (again with the black and white) i imply that it is not yet finished....or if it then it was not done thoroughly enough to begin with.

Since other countries have started getting cold feet, which is what in the last week or 2....and those numbers are growing....you believe that we have canvassed each of those countries, got their reasons for doing so, done our own research off the back of that and come to the conclusion that everything is still fine and dandy?
You have much more faith in our government than i do.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2427 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I'd be curious to know where the tipping point lies. Is there a magic number at which point suspending the AZ vaccine is justifiable ? If there was one death per country after taking the vaccine, would that justify suspension ? What about 3 blood clot incidents per country ? Would that justify suspension ? Unless the only level of risk you are prepared to tolerate is zero, there must be a tipping point that starts to spook people, and I'm wondering why the numbers currently in circulation would cause that, because statistically they seem very small.
I think the critical point @PaulP‍ is that the deaths have to be over and above the normal level for such incidents, and the scientists are telling us they aren't.

I note some of the countries that had paused have now announced the intention to resume overnight after the EU peaks body stated there was no valid reason to suspend. The dissenters can't defeat the stats with opinion, and if they continue to dissent the liability from the consequences of leaving people unvaccinated are huge!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2428 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I'd be curious to know where the tipping point lies. Is there a magic number at which point suspending the AZ vaccine is justifiable ? If there was one death per country after taking the vaccine, would that justify suspension ? What about 3 blood clot incidents per country ? Would that justify suspension ? Unless the only level of risk you are prepared to tolerate is zero, there must be a tipping point that starts to spook people, and I'm wondering why the numbers currently in circulation would cause that, because statistically they seem very small.

Exactly.....so why is it happening?
Dig deeper and you will find one of 2 things.
1. Countries are jumping at shadows and those numbers are well within the acceptable ranges of these things.
2. There is another problem that is actually behind the suspensions.

My contention is there is no harm in doing our own research into what these other countries are seeing.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #2429 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Since other countries have started getting cold feet, which is what in the last week or 2....
Some countries are now announcing the intention to resume overnight, after the EU peak body told them the suspension was unfounded.

I can't believe that intention to resume has happened so quickly by the way.

That tells you the initial suspension process was dubious if not corrupt, right from the start!

We will know in two or three days, but that flip time frame isn't coming from a scientific investigation result, it's either bureaucratic or political.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"