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Re: Post Game Participation: AFL Rd 11: Carlton vs West Coast

Reply #120 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
I remember reading once that when Hodgy spoke, people listened. He would go to the centre bounce after the opo got a bit of a run and say "we get the next goal" and the teamates knew it was non negotiable. That comes with experience and a strong culture.

GTC that requires a leader with a BIG presence. Have we got that yet?
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Post Game Participation: AFL Rd 11: Carlton vs West Coast

Reply #121 –
Quote from: laj – on
Interesting stat.
Damned frightening. And I bet we are NOT on the bottom of the ladder for tackles inside 50!
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: Post Game Participation: AFL Rd 11: Carlton vs West Coast

Reply #122 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
GTC that requires a leader with a BIG presence. Have we got that yet?
IMO no, it requires someone with a heap of kent in him which Hodgy had in spades. Our blokes are nice guys, too nice. I cant say this with any certainty but at present, I can't imagine our skippers striking fear into the troops like Hodgy would have. I read last week that Coniglio recently read his players the riot act and tore strips off them during the half time break. He told them they were playing selfish footy and it needed to stop... and it did. One the of senior GWS players said it was a defining moment in his captaincy. Perhaps Cogs went from nice guy to kent in a single moment. One of Doc or Crippa need to develop a ruthless mean streak and kent up when things are going right.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: Post Game Participation: AFL Rd 11: Carlton vs West Coast

Reply #123 –
Cripps is a BIG presence...He's a 'lead by example' guy much like Judd.
The question is 'When he talks does it impact?' ...and for us on the outside that's an unknown
One of the issues may be that age and experience wise Cripps is still behind a few.
It may also be that because we run a dual captaincy there may be some subtle and unconscious division amongst the players as to who is the key driver of the side.
You often get the impression with Cripps, in our bad losses and turn arounds, that he's really frustrated.
And that frustration may stem more from his inability to drag the players along with him.

Re: Post Game Participation: AFL Rd 11: Carlton vs West Coast

Reply #124 –
Just in case anyone wasnt p!55ed off enough

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6UCJ6FP3_k
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: Post Game Participation: AFL Rd 11: Carlton vs West Coast

Reply #125 –
You either have presence or you dont IMO, its hard to manufacture....young captains like Sticks, Carey had it...Hurn has it but in a quiet way, he isnt a " kent" on the field and is rarely in any skirmishes but when he speaks you can tell the WC players respect him and he is one player if you notice the opposition never mess with physically or mentally, there is just something about him that says presence.
Pendlebury is a fantastic footballer and probably will go down in history as one of Collingwoods greatest but he doesnt have it IMO and one of the reasons Collingwood cant go to the next level is their lack of standout leaders.
Max Gawn....big man but no presence....
Cripps I am undecided on, but Docherty isnt my idea of a captain with presence, I'm not a fan of dual captains, to me it says we dont have one person qualified or with all the characteristics required to do the job on their own.

Re: Post Game Participation: AFL Rd 11: Carlton vs West Coast

Reply #126 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
You either have presence or you dont IMO, its hard to manufacture....young captains like Sticks, Carey had it...Hurn has it but in a quiet way, he isnt a " kent" on the field and is rarely in any skirmishes but when he speaks you can tell the WC players respect him and he is one player if you notice the opposition never mess with physically or mentally, there is just something about him that says presence.
Pendlebury is a fantastic footballer and probably will go down in history as one of Collingwoods greatest but he doesnt have it IMO and one of the reasons Collingwood cant go to the next level is their lack of standout leaders.
Max Gawn....big man but no presence....
Cripps I am undecided on, but Docherty isnt my idea of a captain with presence, I'm not a fan of dual captains, to me it says we dont have one person qualified or with all the characteristics required to do the job on their own.

EB when I said kent, I didnt mean get into fights, king hit behind play, bump players into point posts, I meant being relentless and ruthless with your teamates demanding the highest standards. When you deliver a message, they need to know you mean business, non negotiable. If Cripps or Doc dont demand the highest standards of themselves (ie "practice what you preach"), that's another matter and in that case we're farked. What I am describing above we dont know first hand, only the players do. We  only see the end product. Also, lets not pretend crap lists with no ability can be led to victory by a Captain made up of Jack Dyer, EJ, Big Nic, Sticks, Lethal and Carey. Cotchin doesnt come across as having presence and kent, but to me he must have it judging by the way the play, that's also their coach which is another matter.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: Post Game Participation: AFL Rd 11: Carlton vs West Coast

Reply #127 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
You either have presence or you dont IMO, its hard to manufacture....young captains like Sticks, Carey had it...Hurn has it but in a quiet way, he isnt a " kent" on the field and is rarely in any skirmishes but when he speaks you can tell the WC players respect him and he is one player if you notice the opposition never mess with physically or mentally, there is just something about him that says presence.
Pendlebury is a fantastic footballer and probably will go down in history as one of Collingwoods greatest but he doesnt have it IMO and one of the reasons Collingwood cant go to the next level is their lack of standout leaders.
Max Gawn....big man but no presence....
Cripps I am undecided on, but Docherty isnt my idea of a captain with presence, I'm not a fan of dual captains, to me it says we dont have one person qualified or with all the characteristics required to do the job on their own.

Cripps has shown plenty as a leader. For some reason he is down this year. Think at times he's tried to take too much on himself, got it wrong. Think he's down on confidence right now and it's carried though to his leadership. Last year, a real on-field leader.

Cripps idea of a down year is 85%  of players good year.

Re: Post Game Participation: AFL Rd 11: Carlton vs West Coast

Reply #128 –
Quote from: laj – on
Cripps has shown plenty as a leader. For some reason he is down this year. Think at times he's tried to take too much on himself, got it wrong. Think he's down on confidence right now and it's carried though to his leadership. Last year, a real on-field leader.

Cripps idea of a down year is 85%  of players good year.
Again, in my mind, you don't need to be the teams gun player, think Nick Maxwell. Nowhere near the best player, but was ruthless from what I am told.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: Post Game Participation: AFL Rd 11: Carlton vs West Coast

Reply #129 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
You either have presence or you dont IMO, its hard to manufacture....young captains like Sticks, Carey had it...Hurn has it but in a quiet way, he isnt a " kent" on the field and is rarely in any skirmishes but when he speaks you can tell the WC players respect him and he is one player if you notice the opposition never mess with physically or mentally, there is just something about him that says presence.
Pendlebury is a fantastic footballer and probably will go down in history as one of Collingwoods greatest but he doesnt have it IMO and one of the reasons Collingwood cant go to the next level is their lack of standout leaders.
Max Gawn....big man but no presence....
Cripps I am undecided on, but Docherty isnt my idea of a captain with presence, I'm not a fan of dual captains, to me it says we dont have one person qualified or with all the characteristics required to do the job on their own.


EB1... such an important post. And right on the money. Leadership presence is a very, very real thing.

When Hodge went to BrisVegas... well, the evidence is there.

I cannot think of a Premiership side that had a 'nice' Skipper. Remember, this is a gladiatorial sport.

Our entire side, for decades, has relied on coaches/runners for direction & leadership... no-one stepped up to be the ruthless on-field leader, except maybe for Juddy, by example.

Crippa is, as a leader, nice... Doc doesn't have a hair out of place, impeccable. Terrific blokes, terrific players.

But who is the leader who reads the game, demands change, is uncompromising in his instructions? Who commands respect simply by his actions/voice/presence? This is a serious question. Hint... it aint Simmo, he was raised on failure but is a great of our club through times of deep failure.

So, who is, or who should be, or who should be recruited, to be a bona fide on-field leader - presence & brains ahead of example, please.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Post Game Participation: AFL Rd 11: Carlton vs West Coast

Reply #130 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
EB1... such an important post. And right on the money. Leadership presence is a very, very real thing.

When Hodge went to BrisVegas... well, the evidence is there.

I cannot think of a Premiership side that had a 'nice' Skipper. Remember, this is a gladiatorial sport.

Our entire side, for decades, has relied on coaches/runners for direction & leadership... no-one stepped up to be the ruthless on-field leader, except maybe for Juddy, by example.

Crippa is, as a leader, nice... Doc doesn't have a hair out of place, impeccable. Terrific blokes, terrific players.

But who is the leader who reads the game, demands change, is uncompromising in his instructions? Who commands respect simply by his actions/voice/presence? This is a serious question. Hint... it aint Simmo, he was raised on failure but is a great of our club through times of deep failure.

So, who is, or who should be, or who should be recruited, to be a bona fide on-field leader - presence & brains ahead of example, please.
Doc is a strange one, He has spent two years as a "coach" during his knee rehab and from all reports, has a great footy brain and reads/sees the game better than most, a senior coach in waiting. And yet...
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: Post Game Participation: AFL Rd 11: Carlton vs West Coast

Reply #131 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
EB1... such an important post. And right on the money. Leadership presence is a very, very real thing.

When Hodge went to BrisVegas... well, the evidence is there.

I cannot think of a Premiership side that had a 'nice' Skipper. Remember, this is a gladiatorial sport.

Our entire side, for decades, has relied on coaches/runners for direction & leadership... no-one stepped up to be the ruthless on-field leader, except maybe for Juddy, by example.

Crippa is, as a leader, nice... Doc doesn't have a hair out of place, impeccable. Terrific blokes, terrific players.

But who is the leader who reads the game, demands change, is uncompromising in his instructions? Who commands respect simply by his actions/voice/presence? This is a serious question. Hint... it aint Simmo, he was raised on failure but is a great of our club through times of deep failure.

So, who is, or who should be, or who should be recruited, to be a bona fide on-field leader - presence & brains ahead of example, please.

Trent cotchin instantly comes to mind.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Post Game Participation: AFL Rd 11: Carlton vs West Coast

Reply #132 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Again, in my mind, you don't need to be the teams gun player, think Nick Maxwell. Nowhere near the best player, but was ruthless from what I am told.
Maxwell was appointed for political reasons, the rat pack and wannabe rat packers vs the rest led by Dawes, Jolly, Ball etc..
Maxwell was the neutral both groups would work under... source Collingwood recruiting staff member.
Harley was similar at Geelong...

Re: Post Game Participation: AFL Rd 11: Carlton vs West Coast

Reply #133 –
I remember the days we used to get huge run-ons of goals on a near weekly basis in the premiership 3rd qtrs of the 80s.

Now it happens to us on a weekly basis at a random points of a game. If we can get on top of that from here, and it's not that easy, we actually won't lose many games for the rest of the year. Generally that has cost us most of our losses this year. We got on top of the slow starts, we just have other slow patches now.

Re: Post Game Participation: AFL Rd 11: Carlton vs West Coast

Reply #134 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Trent cotchin instantly comes to mind.

Cotchin is a leopard rather than a Tiger who has tried changing his spots, initially was a timid type who didnt lead well and was accused of skirting the hard stuff, being selfish and indirect with his play and not man enough to lead a pack of Tigers.
Now some would equate those comments with a ex captain of Carlton sill playing...
Cotchin to his credit has altered his game, more inside example setting, trying to seize big moments in games and has also developed as a sniper in his efforts to prove his toughness. Bit artificial and forced for me but he has the runs on the board and the taggers looking sideways for a cheap shot. I know leadership isnt all about being physical on the field but its usually a good start
to win players respect, players will follow a captain who puts himself in danger and sacrifices for the club and Cotchin has been able to do that better in the later stages of his captaincy .