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Topic: Pre game Promise AFL Rd 16 Carlton vs Fremantle at MCG? (Read 8439 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Pre game Promise AFL Rd 16 Carlton vs Fremantle at MCG?

Reply #90
This game is suddenly really important after Richmond's loss in last night's game. Win and we are just a game out of the 8.

Re: Pre game Promise AFL Rd 16 Carlton vs Fremantle at MCG?

Reply #91
This game is suddenly really important after Richmond's loss in last night's game. Win and we are just a game out of the 8.
We don't deserve to be in the 8. If we get there, we won't last long. Too many injuries.
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: Pre game Promise AFL Rd 16 Carlton vs Fremantle at MCG?

Reply #92
when are we going to play some kids ,this year we have a chance to find out wat we have in preparation for 2022  season,our year is over.collingwood played 7 debutantes this season.

Re: Pre game Promise AFL Rd 16 Carlton vs Fremantle at MCG?

Reply #93
We don't deserve to be in the 8. If we get there, we won't last long. Too many injuries.

On present form we don' deserve to be there. But if we do happen to make it and get knocked out first round so be it. However the belief that it could give the team for next year would be invaluable.

Re: Pre game Promise AFL Rd 16 Carlton vs Fremantle at MCG?

Reply #94
We don't deserve to be in the 8. If we get there, we won't last long. Too many injuries.

If we got in means we will have won a number of games, then we will have deserved it. Not sure we have the drive and hunger to consistently win enough to get there though. I'm happy right now to take getting in and lasting only a week.

Re: Pre game Promise AFL Rd 16 Carlton vs Fremantle at MCG?

Reply #95
If we got in means we will have won a number of games, then we will have deserved it. Not sure we have the drive and hunger to consistently win enough to get there though. I'm happy right now to take getting in and lasting only a week.
Even just missing out is a significant sign of progress, especially given our injury list.

The resulting forward momentum can be non-linear, fans must realise this, they just have to look at recent seasons for Nthmond, Lions and Dogs. Get on a roll, get the confidence, get the run of injury luck, and it's amazing what can happen.

I think in recent times too many fans are too quick to dismiss Teague based on win / loss, what Teague has done in changing our game plan, finding a way to score, is significant change in a very very short period of time. It's not about BigH.

Some of the other stuff, the stuff that turns a 2 goal loss into the 2 goal win, the team building and foundational consistency, can only come with long term stability. You don't get doing the right thing from a skills session, you get it from playing besides a team-mate long term.
The Force Awakens!

Re: Pre game Promise AFL Rd 16 Carlton vs Fremantle at MCG?

Reply #96
............................................

I think in recent times too many fans are too quick to dismiss Teague based on win / loss, what Teague has done in changing our game plan, finding a way to score, is significant change in a very very short period of time. It's not about BigH.

.......................................

I'd have to disagree. We are too Harry-centric in my opinion. The table below doesn't, to my eyes, make for good reading :

https://www.sportingnews.com/au/afl/news/coleman-medal-2021-leaderboard-afl-goalkickers/o64g52g4aok61974w2hj5dbgl

Re: Pre game Promise AFL Rd 16 Carlton vs Fremantle at MCG?

Reply #97
I'd have to disagree. We are too Harry-centric in my opinion. The table below doesn't, to my eyes, make for good reading :

https://www.sportingnews.com/au/afl/news/coleman-medal-2021-leaderboard-afl-goalkickers/o64g52g4aok61974w2hj5dbgl


Its very easy to make this assertion, but two things.

1.  He is leading the coleman indicating he is in good form.

2.  How does this stack up against the rest of the AFL?

Using the bulldogs as a comparison (A benchmark team for multiple reasons):

They have scored 1361 points for the season whilst conceding 916 and sit second having only lost 3 games.

Their top 3 goal kickers are:

Western Bulldogs*    

Josh Bruce (37) - 14 games

Aaron Naughton (33)  -  14 Games

Marcus Bontempelli (21)  - 14 games

We by contrast have scored 1165 points (a difference of 196 points which is the equivalent of 32 goals and some behinds)

Our top 3 goal kickers are:

Harry McKay (43)

Eddie Betts (20)

Matt Owies (13)

Here is the caveat:  Owies has only played 8 games and Eddie has only played 12 including multiple matches where he hasnt scored a goal (0.4 against Brisbane off the top of my head).

How he stacks up:
Harry Mckay - 43 goals 27 behinds
Josh Bruce -  37 goals 13 behinds
Aaron Naughton - 33 goals 29 behinds.

After this lengthy study, I think I still cannot draw any firm conclusions about the way we use Harry because this is an outcome focussed assessment to determine our reliance on Harry.  In a season where we have reverted to a make shift forwardline and Harry as one of few players to be there each and every time we enter forward 50, it would make sense that the stats show a reliance on him, but an over reliance is hard to really draw the comparison.  i.e.  scoring shots wise, on outcomes, Harry has had a whopping 8 more scoring shots than Naughton....  Thats not an enormous difference really particularly when you look at Bruce with another 50 scoring shots.  More options would mean less reliance, and we havent been scared to use other avenues to goal they just either kick poorly or havent been in scoring form (thinking of De Koning, Pittonet, Casboult, Cripps resting forward, Jack with 4.10 for the season and not playing every week).

A much more illuminating comparison would be centred on number of forward entries, vs number of entries where Harry was kicked to.

 
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Pre game Promise AFL Rd 16 Carlton vs Fremantle at MCG?

Reply #98
Thry, I'd also be keen to see how often Harry is targeted. I'd hazard a guess and say that he is the most targeted player in the AFL.

When your leading goal kicker has kicked more than double the next guy (McKay has played only 2 more games than Eddie), your team is sitting 13th overall and 10th in points for, your leading goal kicker is first in the Coleman, you've seen how much the team relies on Weitering and Jones at the other end, it leaves me feeling ill at ease tbh. IMO, all this points to a "too much left to too few" approach, one of my biggest knocks on Teague. I would definitely like to see a greater spread of goal kickers, like most of the top teams.

Re: Pre game Promise AFL Rd 16 Carlton vs Fremantle at MCG?

Reply #99
Further to my previous post, I'd be keen to see if anyone believes we could kick a winning score without Harry. I reckon the Doggies could without Naughton or Bruce.

Re: Pre game Promise AFL Rd 16 Carlton vs Fremantle at MCG?

Reply #100
Its very easy to make this assertion, but two things.

1.  He is leading the coleman indicating he is in good form.

2.  How does this stack up against the rest of the AFL?

Using the bulldogs as a comparison (A benchmark team for multiple reasons):

They have scored 1361 points for the season whilst conceding 916 and sit second having only lost 3 games.

Their top 3 goal kickers are:

Western Bulldogs*    

Josh Bruce (37) - 14 games

Aaron Naughton (33)  -  14 Games

Marcus Bontempelli (21)  - 14 games

We by contrast have scored 1165 points (a difference of 196 points which is the equivalent of 32 goals and some behinds)

Our top 3 goal kickers are:

Harry McKay (43)

Eddie Betts (20)

Matt Owies (13)

Here is the caveat:  Owies has only played 8 games and Eddie has only played 12 including multiple matches where he hasnt scored a goal (0.4 against Brisbane off the top of my head).

How he stacks up:
Harry Mckay - 43 goals 27 behinds
Josh Bruce -  37 goals 13 behinds
Aaron Naughton - 33 goals 29 behinds.

After this lengthy study, I think I still cannot draw any firm conclusions about the way we use Harry because this is an outcome focussed assessment to determine our reliance on Harry.  In a season where we have reverted to a make shift forwardline and Harry as one of few players to be there each and every time we enter forward 50, it would make sense that the stats show a reliance on him, but an over reliance is hard to really draw the comparison.  i.e.  scoring shots wise, on outcomes, Harry has had a whopping 8 more scoring shots than Naughton....  Thats not an enormous difference really particularly when you look at Bruce with another 50 scoring shots.  More options would mean less reliance, and we havent been scared to use other avenues to goal they just either kick poorly or havent been in scoring form (thinking of De Koning, Pittonet, Casboult, Cripps resting forward, Jack with 4.10 for the season and not playing every week).

A much more illuminating comparison would be centred on number of forward entries, vs number of entries where Harry was kicked to.

The big difference is that the Bulldogs have two key forwards who have kicked 70 goals between them, not to mention their top midfielder with 20 odd.  Our key forwards have kicked around 50 goals and our top midfielder has kicked 5 goals.

It's great that Harry is heading towards 50 goals, but I'd prefer to see two key forwards sharing the load and a better contribution from the midfield.  Our small forwards are contributing but, again, it would be great if more of them were regularly troubling the scorers.
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: Pre game Promise AFL Rd 16 Carlton vs Fremantle at MCG?

Reply #101
Further to my previous post, I'd be keen to see if anyone believes we could kick a winning score without Harry. I reckon the Doggies could without Naughton or Bruce.
If we didnt have Harry we would be struggling to beat anyone.........need Charlie back to compete with the top 8 teams though.

Re: Pre game Promise AFL Rd 16 Carlton vs Fremantle at MCG?

Reply #102
If we didnt have Harry we would be struggling to beat anyone.........need Charlie back to compete with the top 8 teams though.

Yes, Teague's hands may well be tied because of injuries, but that table is still a disturbing read IMO.

Re: Pre game Promise AFL Rd 16 Carlton vs Fremantle at MCG?

Reply #103
With all due respect is it possible for us to have relied on Harry less given the make up of our team?  We fared ok with Harry off after quarter time vs Sydney and he tends to score in clumps.

I think the over reliance on individuals is being over stated somewhat. 


"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Pre game Promise AFL Rd 16 Carlton vs Fremantle at MCG?

Reply #104
This game is suddenly really important after Richmond's loss in last night's game. Win and we are just a game out of the 8.
Lose and Freo knock Tigers out of the 8.

Its a win-win.

....just as an aside.

When was the last time the 'big 4' were all outside the 8 this late in the season (which will happen if Freo win).