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Re: Wimbeldon 2021

Reply #15 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Novak is the GOAT. Rafa and Federer are fading, and don't look capable of winning another big title. The younger crop of players don't seem capable of taking the next step. Novak's W/L against the other two is superior. He's equal on slams won. He's still playing great tennis and more slams and the Olympic gold are well within reach.

Well played ND.
 Is there a difference between a winner and a champion?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Wimbeldon 2021

Reply #16 –
Quote from: LP – on
Is there a difference between a winner and a champion?

He's definitely a champion. A flawed champion, a seemingly unpopular champion, but a champion nonetheless IMO.

Re: Wimbeldon 2021

Reply #17 –
Quote from: LP – on
Is there a difference between a winner and a champion?

I suspect you asked that tongue in cheek... but I'll bite, Spotted One. Champion suggests winning over a long period of time and likely breaking many records along the way.

I'm with Pauly, on this one 100%. Novak is the best I've seen in my seemingly 10 decades on planet Earth, a whisker up on Roger & Rafa.

Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Wimbeldon 2021

Reply #18 –
I can appreciate where LP is coming from. Novak is merely a winner, and unworthy of the title "Champion", because of the medical timeouts, injuring lines people by recklessly hitting balls, party during covid etc. And whilst some of those antics are regrettable, they need to be viewed in a larger body of work IMO.

Re: Wimbeldon 2021

Reply #19 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I can appreciate where LP is coming from. Novak is merely a winner, and unworthy of the title "Champion", because of the medical timeouts, injuring lines people by recklessly hitting balls, party during covid etc. And whilst some of those antics are regrettable, they need to be viewed in a larger body of work IMO.
I think the term Champion is too easily issued by the media, for me to be a Champion you need the whole package, you can't win on court but be an a55hole everywhere else and still be a Champion!

McEnroe winner but not Champion, Federer winner and Champion, Nadal winner and Champion??, Connors winner but not Champion, after her Naomi Osaka dummy spit I'm not sure Serena Williams is a Champion. Sampras, Borg, Agassi, Lendl, Court, Navratilova, Graf, Cawley, etc., etc.. Some are unequivocally Champions, some perhaps not!

I suppose if all fans care about is winning and not how a sport's role model will conduct themselves then they are all Champions, but it's clear then we  as fans do not hold them all to the same standard. Which seems hypocritical when we lambaste them at other times for human foibles. 

So I'd assert the Champion moniker is far too easily issued, winners no doubt, Champions well it perhaps depends on personal values.

We could make similar comparisons in our own sport, Barassi, Jesaulenko, Matthews, Nichols, Cable, Ablett Snr, DiPierdomenico, Flower, Bourke, Dyer, Williams, Silvagni, Lockett, Carey. All winners no doubt about it, some are the best I have seen, but all Champions, not by a long way!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Wimbeldon 2021

Reply #20 –
Quote from: LP – on
I think the term Champion is too easily issued by the media, for me to be a Champion you need the whole package, you can't win on court but be an a55hole everywhere else and still be a Champion! McEnroe winner but not Champion, Federer winner and Champion, Nadal winner and Champion??, Connors winner but not Champion, after her Naomi Osaka dummy spit I'm not sure Serena Williams is a Champion.

I suppose if all fans care about is winning and not how a sport's role model will conduct themselves then they are all Champions, but it's clear then we  as fans do not hold them all to the same standard. Which seems hypocritical when we lambaste them at other times for human foibles. 

So I'd assert the Champion moniker is far too easily issued, winners no doubt, Champions well it perhaps depends on personal values.

I appreciate all that. But as I stated previously, it's important to at least try and look at the big picture. He's played thousands of matches over his career, how many timeouts has he called for ? Are they all fake ? Look at his charity work. Look at the work in setting up a new players union that gets a better deal for players. It's not really about just focussing on the on field and turning a blind eye to the off field stuff. On the court and off, he mixes the very good with the questionable IMO, but taking all that into account, he's still a champion in my eyes.

Re: Wimbeldon 2021

Reply #21 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Look at his charity work. Look at the work in setting up a new players union that gets a better deal for players.
Not fake at all.

But I fear and think you give players too much credit for this, they barely get within arms length of these activities, they are mostly PR exercises setup by the players management group.

For example, I know a very high level AFL player who has appeared in print regularly touted for his Children's Hospital Charity work, but behind the scenes he barely turns up for 1 out of 10 commitments. His club just keeps making excuses for him, the media don't care so they never expose the contradiction.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Wimbeldon 2021

Reply #22 –
Quote from: LP – on
Not fake at all.

But I fear and think you give players too much credit for this, they barely get within arms length of these activities, they are mostly PR exercises setup by the players management group.

.......................................................................................

All that empathy I carry around - it's a real curse I tell ya.

The fact that he set it up, and it bears his name, and donates time and money to it, is at the very least a start. As a pro tennis player, I imagine his schedule is pretty full.

Re: Wimbeldon 2021

Reply #23 –
Definition of champion:
1.  A person who has surpassed all rivals in a sporting contest or other competition.

By defintion, Novak isnt a champion yet, because he just joined Rafa and Roger on 20 slams each.

Note, Sampras was the last Tennis champion by definition on 14 slams.

If these guys arent champions there is no such animal.

irrespective of what anyone thinks of these guys, they all currently qualify as the GOAT of their respective of sport.

They are by very definition champions.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Wimbeldon 2021

Reply #24 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
All that empathy I carry around - it's a real curse I tell ya.

The fact that he set it up, and it bears his name, and donates time and money to it, is at the very least a start. As a pro tennis player, I imagine his schedule is pretty full.
You post like they are individuals, when in reality many at that level are really an organisation.

In my experience, most of the charities are setup by sponsors, sponsors that pay the sport's star very well, and charities to which the sportsperson gets to attached their name with very little input. It's nowhere near as magnanimous as you seem to imply.

Perhaps I'm just not as forgiving as yourself.

I appreciate it's not a global perspective I hold, there are significant charitable activities conducted by sporting greats across the globe, but that does not mean they are all so inclined even though they may well be attracted to the notoriety.

Let them eat cake!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Wimbeldon 2021

Reply #25 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
All that empathy I carry around - it's a real curse I tell ya.


Nuh. Great attribute, Pauly.

Dare I say that empathy is a 'champion' human trait?  ;)  :)
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Wimbeldon 2021

Reply #26 –
"Champion" is a pretty cheap tag to throw around in any sport, but especially tennis.  Excluding Court and Borg IMO.  They were incredible.