Skip to main content ↑ ↓
Topic: Darcy Vescio has an announcement (Read 12027 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Darcy Vescio has an announcement

Reply #30 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Not entirely true. I made a thread about Ellen/Elliot Page when that occured. Big enough names, get mentioned.

But yes, this specific one was because its a carlton player.

Same would occur when the first mens player actually comes out of the closet publicly. I suspect we all know someone who is gay and its not entirely big news....unless its the 'first'.

Think about it though.
Darcy only has prominence because she is a very good AFLW player.
That's her  claim to fame.
Without that it's like you or I came out as binary folks.
It wouldn't rate a mention.

Re: Darcy Vescio has an announcement

Reply #31 –
Tertiary adjunct of unamatrix 9 would have been simpler

Re: Darcy Vescio has an announcement

Reply #33 –
Well most of us still love Darcy, but if you hate her there is no way you can credibly be labelled as a misogynist!

A lot of this debate would be twisted by the politically correct, I suppose like the Goodes issue there are some who hide their hatred in this sort of debate. For me it's about the politics of it, I despise the use of spin and politics in disclosing or discussing such issues. I'm afraid my first-hand experiences have left me very cynical of the wider movement because it's been hijacked by a few radicals, not unlike animal welfare being hijacked by extinction rebellion, fascism hijacked by anti-Semites,  anti-nuclear hijacked by solar-energy, etc., etc..

There is irony in those who will rally cry "Down the Patriarchy", and then label you a misogynist, they seem oblivious to any 3rd person perspective, is it an accident or deliberate!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Darcy Vescio has an announcement

Reply #34 –
My understanding of this issue is that it is about identity. And Darcy has chosen an identity which best describes what is truest and most authentic for Darcy. I respect that.

Like most on here I am grappling with understanding this... but then my frame of reference, my identity is one represented by a large number of people. I look and feel male. And I see a lot like me wherever I go. Plus I've had plenty of decades of existence to reinforce my identity.

So how do I relate to Darcy with this new knowledge of how Darcy identifies Darcy? Simple. Respect. And a willingness to be open to the reality that Darcy's identity for Darcy is Darcy's business and my judgements are irrelevant.

I find myself, to be honest, wanting to understand but accepting that I may not be able to for some time. But I want to. Change aint easy, especially when we're asked to respect an identity that we can't relate to or haven't had to relate to... but that doesn't mean it aint very, very real for the person experiencing an identity so very different to so many, including me. I will be doing a lot of reading/research to better understand the perspectives and feelings of binary folks. To attempt to see the world and themselves through their eyes, minds and hearts. I'm determined to gain a better understanding.

But the one thing I do admire with Darcy's announcement is the courage it took to make this public. Like anyone making known their preference for an identity which is very different to so many, Darcy will experience ridicule and mocking. That is sad and an indictment on empathy and understanding... indeed, human intelligence. Fortunately, Darcy will also experience support, love and admiration from those closest to her... those who matter most, I expect and hope. Another victory for bravery, I suspect... and hope.

Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Darcy Vescio has an announcement

Reply #35 –
Ive thought this through and im still grappling a little with this and ill summarise as follows:

I dont feel male.  I am a male by anatomy.

What does I dont identify as male mean in that context?  What is a male?

The definition of feeling a gender is a bit of bollocks if you ask me.  This stuff is identity politics and makes no sense.  Im a male.  I dont feel like a male, I am a male person who identifies as themselves.  The more I try to understand this which is the key to respecting this decision for anyone who's wondering, is to understand and I cannot wrap my head around the idea that a person feels a gender or not because its not real.

Is the rejection of femininity to do with this?  Of so that doesn't make you not female it just makes you a not girly girl.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Darcy Vescio has an announcement

Reply #36 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Is the rejection of femininity to do with this?  Of so that doesn't make you not female it just makes you a not girly girl.

This has been referenced a few times on this site, but the native americans were all over this before the europeans imposed their views....
https://indiancountrytoday.com/archive/two-spirits-one-heart-five-genders
Quote
Of all of the foreign life ways Indians held, one of the first the Europeans targeted for elimination was the Two Spirit tradition among Native American cultures. At the point of contact, all Native American societies acknowledged three to five gender roles: Female, male, Two Spirit female, Two Spirit male and transgendered. LGBT Native Americans wanting to be identified within their respective tribes and not grouped with other races officially adopted the term "Two Spirit" from the Ojibwe language in Winnipeg, Manitoba, 1989. Each tribe has their own specific term, but there was a need for a universal term that the general population could understand. The Navajo refer to Two Spirits as Nádleehí (one who is transformed), among the Lakota is Winkté (indicative of a male who has a compulsion to behave as a female), Niizh Manidoowag (two spirit) in Ojibwe, Hemaneh (half man, half woman) in Cheyenne, to name a few. As the purpose of "Two Spirit" is to be used as a universal term in the English language, it is not always translatable with the same meaning in Native languages. For example, in the Iroquois Cherokee language, there is no way to translate the term, but the Cherokee do have gender variance terms for "women who feel like men" and vice versa.

Re: Darcy Vescio has an announcement

Reply #37 –
I think it's actually good that we're 'having a think'.

The fact that some of us are struggling a bit (myself, very much included) with aspects of it is understandable, but in doing so I don't think there is a great deal of anti-Darcy feeling involved. Most of us wish thee well Darcy.

As I've said before the main thing I'm a bit confused about is this.
Darcy plays in competition that is based on the fact that it is not open to male competitors.
Men can't play in that competition.
By playing in that competition the participants accept that structure. In fact if you have a look at a lot of our clubs AFLW information and advertising Darcy is front and centre.
Darcy is helping to promote that 'segregated on M/F lines' competition, and as a result of Darcy's and others efforts, a lot of young women are now inspired to continue their football efforts at a high level. Yet Darcy wishes to be free of that 'women' label, even if is just her own personal preference.

Over the last few years we've heard a number of AFLW players voice their appreciation of the fact that they now have an elite competition for women. I'm not sure how that sits and is expressed by someone identifying as Darcy now does.

Finally my other area of confusion is that the story only has relevance because Darcy is a very good player in a competition for 'women'.
In some respects that is what defines Darcy's talents.
Darcy would not play at that elite level in an open competition.
Darcy would not have the recognition to express Darcy's gender position so publicly.
It would be largely irrelevant.

But I guess there are some folks who would argue the fact that Darcy has that ability isn't such a bad thing if it gets people having a chat about it.

( I've just changed all the shes and hers (probably missed one)...Can someone give me another pronoun...'They' reads ridiculously, as does the constant Darcy's

Re: Darcy Vescio has an announcement

Reply #38 –
Quote from: Lods – on
( I've just changed all the shes and hers (probably missed one)...Can someone give me another pronoun...'They' reads ridiculously, as does the constant Darcy's
Yep, it feels like you are learning another language, and you can't quite get your head around it.

Re: Darcy Vescio has an announcement

Reply #39 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
This has been referenced a few times on this site, but the native americans were all over this before the europeans imposed their views....
https://indiancountrytoday.com/archive/two-spirits-one-heart-five-genders
sorry mate I've read this before and I reject it
Quote from: kruddler – on
This has been referenced a few times on this site, but the native americans were all over this before the europeans imposed their views....
https://indiancountrytoday.com/archive/two-spirits-one-heart-five-genders

Not sure about the navajo and their belief structures but for me you can still paint all of this into traditional genders of anatomy X and Y.

Where the variance is seems to be behavioural and not gendered.

I.e. we associate femininity with females and masculinity with males as we have defined the class male and female, but both genders have the same capacity for both, and how they behave is actually irrelevant.  

The class male or female is the issue for someone to state they don't belong to one is in my opinion still bollocks because its their definition they don't belong to.  Its just anatomy.

You can't not have anatomy of one or the other.  Its a thumbing of social norms based on flawed models of social norms.

I remember once being told "She is the cat's mother".  Perhaps we knew better once upon a time but im never really going to understand this thinking regarding rejection of anatomy.  You introduce more chromosomes and im more understanding but the waters seem to have been muddied here for no real apparent reason IMHO.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Darcy Vescio has an announcement

Reply #40 –
Quote from: Lods – on
I think it's actually good that we're 'having a think'.

The fact that some of us are struggling a bit (myself, very much included) with aspects of it is understandable, but in doing so I don't think there is a great deal of anti-Darcy feeling involved. Most of us wish thee well Darcy.

As I've said before the main thing I'm a bit confused about is this.
Darcy plays in competition that is based on the fact that it is not open to male competitors.
Men can't play in that competition.
By playing in that competition the participants accept that structure. In fact if you have a look at a lot of our clubs AFLW information and advertising Darcy is front and centre.

( I've just changed all the shes and hers (probably missed one)...Can someone give me another pronoun...'They' reads ridiculously, as does the constant Darcy's

That's something I wrestled with also, Principal LODS. From the meagre research I did (which continues), the issue is not so much Darcy's body, which seems woman, but how Darcy identifies Darcy's gender or otherwise. It's about identity, not body... and that is a challenge for those of us who have a body and identity which seem the same.

I also found the pronoun thing tough... so I just settled on the noun 'Darcy' and gave pronouns the flick. Probably lazy on my part, but it's a start founded on respect.

Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Darcy Vescio has an announcement

Reply #41 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Is the rejection of femininity to do with this?  Of so that doesn't make you not female it just makes you a not girly girl.
This is close to the money for some cases but not all.

Being female is a competitive sport some feel they just can't win at!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Darcy Vescio has an announcement

Reply #42 –
Quote from: Lods – on
I'm struggling a bit with this too.
How do you take this stance and then choose to play in a competition that is built and based on a specific male/female distinctions.

x100

Saw this in the Hearld Sun and read the first few paragraphs and then stopped reading. Does my head in. I'm too old school with my way of thinking.

Re: Darcy Vescio has an announcement

Reply #43 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
I'm old school and binary numbers converting them to decimals etc is what I understand, non binary humans I dont get, Darcy is a pleasant young lady and thats how I view her.
I think you lose something as a unique individual when you become a non gender abstract object and I wonder what has led to this decision to describe herself in such a neutral manner.

x2

Re: Darcy Vescio has an announcement

Reply #44 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
That's something I wrestled with also, Principal LODS. From the meagre research I did (which continues), the issue is not so much Darcy's body, which seems woman, but how Darcy identifies Darcy's gender or otherwise. It's about identity, not body... and that is a challenge for those of us who have a body and identity which seem the same.

I also found the pronoun thing tough... so I just settled on the noun 'Darcy' and gave pronouns the flick. Probably lazy on my part, but it's a start founded on respect.



Back in the 1990s, one of my colleagues was pursuing a PhD about the continuums that are gender and biological sex.  We had many challenging (for me) discussions.  I learnt a lot of stuff that made my head hurt but, eventually, accepted that gender is essentially a social construct with the binary model predominant in western society.  Many societies around the globe have their own long-established traditions of non-binary gender with third, fourth, fifth, or more genders.  Biological sex is not as straightforward as I thought either, with disorders of sex development (DSD), also known as intersex, creating a spectrum rather than the binary assignation of biological sex based on XX - XY, vagina - penis, ovaries - testes.

Darcy's announcement is a bit of a non-event for me.  I don't really give a fat rat's clacker about how anyone chooses to define/identify their gender.  That's their business.  However, I do now know that I shouldn't use female pronouns when referring to Darcy.  My main concern is that Darcy continues to play good footy and wins the goal kicking again this season.

I can't see an issue with the fact that Darcy plays in a women's footy competition.  Eligibility to play in the AFLW is based on biological sex rather than gender identity.  As far as I know, Darcy meets whatever criteria there may be for playing AFLW and self-identification as non-binary when it comes to gender doesn't really matter.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!